HANSARD
NOVA SCOTIA HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
PARTICIPATION IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS
Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
SELECT COMMITTEE ON
PARTICIPATION IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS
Mr. Michel Samson (Chairman)
Hon. Mark Parent (Vice-Chairman)
Mr. Patrick Dunn
Mr. Keith Bain
Ms. Maureen MacDonald (Vice-Chair)
Mr. Graham Steele
Mr. Charles Parker
Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay)
Mr. Harold Theriault
[Hon. Mark Parent was replaced by Hon. Cecil Clarke.]
[Mr. Graham Steele was replaced by Mr. Gordon Gosse.]
In Attendance:
Ms. Kim Leadley
Select Committee Clerk
Ms. Sherri Mitchell
Select Committee Clerk
Witnesses
Ms. Josephine Kennedy
Mr. Eldon MacDonald
Ms. Dianne Theriault
Ms. Brenda Wall
Mr. Ed McNeil
[Page 1]
SYDNEY, MONDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2008
PARTICIPATION IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS
MR. CHAIRMAN: Good evening, everyone. My name is Michel Samson, the Member of the Legislative Assembly for Richmond County, and also the chairman of the Select Committee on Participation in the Democratic Process. This committee was formed as a result of our last provincial election, and other elections, which showed a significant decline in voter participation here in Nova Scotia. It was decided that, as elected members, we would undertake to try to find out exactly why people were disengaging from the voting system and what changes could possibly be made to reverse that trend.
Our committee has been doing research on previous elections, both municipal and federal elections, and has been reviewing literature on the subject as well. Part of our work was also to go out to various communities throughout Nova Scotia and receive input directly from Nova Scotians. We've also invited Nova Scotians who wish to contact us with any comments or suggestions they have, either to our Facebook page, through an e-mail address, fax, or even phoning in to the Committees Office.
As part of our decision to go around the province, we decided to do things a little bit differently this time and we've added the component of focus groups to communities that we are visiting. For example, this afternoon at 1:00 p.m., we had two groups which were made up of students from various schools throughout the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board and we had the opportunity to speak directly to those students, and hear from them, more importantly, on what their views were on why people were not participating and what could be done differently. Following that, we also had a focus group with representatives of various organizations within the Cape Breton Regional Municipality. The final element of our work this evening is actually an opportunity to allow the public to be able to speak to us directly and give us any comments or suggestions they may have in regard to the issue facing us, which is the low voter turnout.
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Tonight we have not received any formal requests to address our committee, but we always invite the public, even if they do not have a written presentation or have not previously given notice, to feel free to come forward and speak to us and give us their suggestions or their opinions.
I should say at the beginning that this meeting is being recorded by Legislative Television and will be part of the minutes of the final meeting. As well, we may have various members of the press in attendance this evening, so I point that out just to remind you that your comments are being recorded and, as well, that there are members of the press here listening to your comments.
I would point out there is some information on the table back there regarding the makeup of this committee, the resolution which created us, and as well there's a sign-up sheet for anyone who wishes to receive a copy of either the transcript of today's meeting or the final report that will be put together by this committee.
Anyone who is interested in presenting to us, if you could just touch base with one of our clerks, Kim Leadley, who is standing at the back of the room. She will take down your name and we can introduce you when you come up to speak. Before asking for individuals to come forward to make a presentation, if I could ask the members of the committee here before you to introduce themselves and their riding so you know exactly who we have with us today.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
[7:15 p.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: And sitting next to me is Sherri Mitchell, one of the clerks from the Committees Office, who is joining us on our tour around the province with these meetings. As well, we have representatives from Hansard, which is the official record of the Legislature in Nova Scotia, and technicians with Legislative Television who are joining us here also.
As well, sitting in the back of the room is Paula Romanow, who is our researcher and facilitator for the focus groups, who will certainly be listening intently this evening and will help in preparing our final draft. We also have Joanne Kerrigan from Communications Nova Scotia joining us, who has been one of our facilitators today as well.
With that, I would now open the floor if there's anyone who wishes to make a few comments to us right now. Please just step forward and introduce yourself. We're interested to hear any comments you might have.
[Page 3]
I can introduce this lady while she's walking up. Josephine, have a seat, and if you would speak clearly into the microphone. Josephine, maybe you can more formally introduce yourself to members of the committee and members of the public who are here.
MS. JOSEPHINE KENNEDY: I'm Josephine Kennedy. I'm the candidate for the Liberals in Cape Breton West. Since I received the nomination, I've knocked on approximately 3,300 doors. Out of that, I'd say I've spoken to approximately 2,000 people.
One of the things that keeps coming across is that people don't want to go out and vote because they figure they're going to get the same old, same old. They feel that politics have become stale, they don't see any changes when they do vote, they're put on ignore, they're only looked at every four years or sometimes, with a minority government, maybe every two years or 18 months.
People need to be engaged and as polls have shown, it was the 18- to 35-year olds that weren't voting. But with the recent elections, we're finding there are a lot of people - people my age, in the 50-year-old bracket - 39, I should say - that aren't voting. You guys are going to travel the province so you're going to have to find out why people of all ages aren't voting.
I really and truly think you're not connecting with the people. You're not asking the people the issues, you're not asking people their concerns. When you find this out, also ask them if they have a solution, because that's what I've been asking and they're being blown away by the simple fact that they're being asked, do you have a solution? We're kind of asking them, but then ignoring their advice, and there are a lot of smart people out there. They have to be asked, they have to be engaged.
As I look around this room here tonight, it shows that what we've spent out over the past year to encourage people to come back to vote hasn't been working. Why isn't it working? You guys spoke with students today, what feedback did you get from the students? Why aren't the 18-year olds coming out?
My children are all grown and that was one thing I pounded into their heads, that is the right that nobody will ever take away from you, so the moment you're able to vote, you get out there and you exercise it, and they've done it. Now I don't know about other parents, if this is what they're encouraging or if the teachers in political science are encouraging this but it's mandatory that we get out and mark an "X" and this is what we have to do. We have to engage these 18- to 35-year olds.
We have to engage the 35- to 70-year olds now, because with the lowest voter turnout in all of Canadian history, that is sad when we have troops over in Afghanistan who walked off the field to vote, to prevent what's happening in Afghanistan to ever happen here in Canada, and then turn around and walk out with those packs on their backs, and we can't get
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out because, oh, we have to take somebody to soccer practice. We have to do something to get these people back out and voting, because if we don't we're going to keep getting the same old, same old, which is never going to change, because as we just went through an election, we got the same old, same old. That's what I have to say - for now.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Josephine, if you want to wait one second. What I should have said as well, maybe - I didn't want to scare you off - sometimes the committee members may have some questions they want to ask you as well. I'm sure they're not going to be too tough but I'm sure there are some questions they'll want to ask you as well. Are you fine with that?
MS. KENNEDY: I'm perfect.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Good, you're ready for elected office. Ms. MacDonald.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Thank you. Good evening, it's very nice to see you again.
MS. KENNEDY: We met last year.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Yes. I have two questions, they're fairly simple and straightforward. We have found in our research that there's quite a discrepancy between voter turnout in some parts of the province compared to other parts of the province. For example, in the area I represent, less than 50 per cent voted in the last provincial election, yet in the Premier's riding it might be close to 90 per cent turnout. So urban ridings are predominantly the ridings where this is a huge problem where it has dipped.
My first question is, can you tell me what the voter turnout is in the constituency where you've been knocking on doors?
MS. KENNEDY: We've had a decent voter turnout, but I think that goes back to the rural areas, because here in Cape Breton, as Michel understands, politics in Cape Breton is like a blood sport. We take it seriously, we believe in what we're doing. During the election, we could be fighting like cats and dogs, but the day after we're shaking hands and we're trying to make some improvements. But I think with the urban areas there's just so much being thrown at them that it goes back to, well, I have to take my kids to soccer practice - they're just too busy and their lives are too hectic. But in the rural areas we kind of look forward to it because it's almost like getting out to the old general stores, you're socializing with the people outside the polling stations. When you go to Halifax, people don't even say hi to you when you're walking down the street, but here in Cape Breton everybody wants to know your name.
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MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: So when you say it's a decent turnout, can you put a number on it?
MS. KENNEDY: I couldn't tell you because I haven't seen the actual results. Just basically in my own little polling area, just to see the turnout for the municipal elections this week was quite high. You could get run over just trying to go into the fire hall.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: My second question is, you said you had knocked on 3,300 doors; that's a lot of doors to knock on and people are talking about the issues and you are asking them for their solutions. So what is the advice they're giving you? Concretely, what are they saying we have to do?
MS. KENNEDY: It depends. When I first started knocking on doors after I got the nomination, it was kind of a mixture between health care and the rising fuel costs. Then it got to the point health care wasn't even on the radar screen because everybody was scared to death of how they were going to heat their homes. They would get angry, different issues they would get angry at, so I would throw it back to them, put the ball in their court and ask them what their solution would be. They would all have different solutions for the concern that mattered most to them, so I was just keeping track. As a candidate, I wanted to know that when it comes down to the time for a debate, I can go in and honestly say that I know the issues and here are some of the concerns and solutions.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: But you have no concrete solutions that they offered on the voter turnout for us? That's what we're looking for.
MS. KENNEDY: Other than the apathy, they want change but they think that because they're going out to vote and they're getting the same old, same old, what's the point in going out? You can stay home and get the same old, same old and that's the sad part and that's what I really find disheartening, that people aren't getting out there and marking their "X".
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bain.
MR. KEITH BAIN: Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Just to follow up on that, Josephine, if I could - same old, same old, but how do we get the people out? If they're saying it's the same old, same old, so I'm not going out to vote, what do we as three political Parties, or as a province, do to get those voters out?
MS. KENNEDY: I was shocked when I started knocking on doors, even in the sort of urban areas. They told me I was the first one who ever knocked on their door. I can understand out in the rural areas that candidates aren't going because of the logistics of in
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and out of the car, in and out of the car. But when you get into semi-urban places and they're not getting out and knocking on the doors to just introduce themselves, you know, you're going to the person, you want them to hire you. You are not going to a town hall and have a meet and greet like you're a queen or king holding court, you have to get out and engage the people.
A lot of these people won't come to a setting like this and speak out. They're more comfortable with one on one, sitting at their kitchen table with a cup of tea. If that's what it takes, that's what we're going to have to do, sit at their kitchen tables because they're not going to speak out. A lot of these people are smart, but they just don't feel comfortable speaking out in public.
MR. BAIN: So it's more personal contact?
MS. KENNEDY: It has to be a personal contact. You can't disassociate the personal side of it and think it's the business, it's not. You have to bring in the personal touch, just like Cottonelle bathroom tissue, you have to bring in the personal touch. We're human beings, we have to know that we're wanted, plain and simple.
MR. BAIN: One of the statements we heard this afternoon, especially among the youth, was that many didn't vote because they weren't aware of what each Party stood for. This begs the question, are the Parties not getting their message out or does the personal contact solve that problem? You are dealing with individuals, but you're also dealing with Party systems as well.
MS. KENNEDY: Well, it has to come back down to the personal contact because politicians of old made sure that they had the personal contact. I remember growing up, I remember Alan J. coming to my grandfather's house. It was the personal contact.
MR. BAIN: So that in your view is the key to the . . .
MS. KENNEDY: Yes, you have to engage them.
MR. BAIN: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Theriault.
MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: Thank you, Josephine, that was an eye-opener - not really, it wasn't an eye-opener to me because lack of communication can destroy any relationship anywhere on earth. I don't care if it's with your wife, your spouse or even with your dog - if you don't communicate with your dog after awhile, they'll go away. (Laughter)
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I believe that's what you're saying, Josephine, is a lack of communication. We saw that in this past federal election, poor communication from a certain Party that went downhill - I won't say who but we all know who - and it was all from a lack of communication with the people. I heard it every day, we cannot understand, they cannot communicate with me on what's going on. It's a simple thing there too, just a lack of communication and I believe that is a big problem. Thank you for bringing that to our attention.
MR. CHAIRMAN: If I could ask a question. I know that Cape Breton West, just for the information of Ms. MacDonald, had a 62.12 per cent turnout the last time. Inverness had a 70.69 per cent turnout, which is one of the higher ones.
Josephine, you raised an interesting point. You point out the need for a personal touch. I guess as elected officials, that's always our challenge and we have a minister sitting around here and his added responsibilities - I guess in elected office you're trying to balance work with life and I'd love to spend every day going door to door, having tea with people. It's not realistic, we can't do that.
I can tell you that in Cape Breton and in your riding, they'd probably love to see you, but with all due respect to Ms. MacDonald, I would question whether her voters, especially in the city, who in many cases won't answer the door and really do not like anyone coming to bother them - that just simply wouldn't work. In fact, I would go so far as to probably say that it would have a negative impact if Ms. MacDonald decided each day to go and knock on her constituents' doors. I think that's why many of us have Web sites, we're on e-mail, and myself, I do a cable show once a month, we hold office hours.
[7:30 p.m.]
I'm just curious, with all of that, what other than going door to door every day - and I'm reminded of an old gentleman who said the same thing to me last election. He said, I only see you every time there's an election. Although I don't have too many people from Richmond who say they don't see me enough - many would argue that they see me too much or hear me too much. So I told the gentleman, if that's the case, sir, the day after the election I'll make it a point to come see you once a week, if that's the case, to which he responded, I don't want the likes of you to come and see me all the time. (Laughter) So you really get a mixed message from the electorate sometimes. In one sense that was that same message, we only see you at election time, yet when I suggested that I would go see him on a more regular basis, he wasn't interested in that either.
So I'm curious, what could you suggest, I guess, in light of the balance of actual family life with work, and what's realistic and what's not realistic? What specific things, is there anything you could suggest that we could recommend that should be done by both those who are in elected office and those seeking to be in elected office?
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MS. KENNEDY: Okay, I'm just going to tell you my average day. I work for the school board, I'm a bus driver. When I come home, I'm out knocking on doors. I look after fishermen's associations plus other things that I'm involved in, so my day is from 5:30 a.m. until 11:00 p.m. To borrow from Peter Stoffer, who's a dear friend, he cold calls. When he's in Ottawa and he's got five spare minutes, he will pick up the phone and call his constituents just to touch base and say, look, do you have anything you want to tell me, or just to say hello.
I appreciate that you work hard and you are away from your families and stuff like that, but we wanted the job, I want the job and I know what it's going to take. It's going to take hard work, nobody said it was going to be easy. To encourage people back to vote, if it's going to take the touchy-feely, you're going to have to do the touchy-feely. If not, the next election will be even a lower turnout, because people are becoming disenchanted with politics.
You can turn the TV on 24/7 and you can see politics. You can watch the Americans, you can watch the British Parliament, you can get the whole works, and then you see - especially in Parliament - they're acting like a bunch of little kids who you would chastise and send to their room, but here are grown adults acting like two-year olds playing in the sandbox and not getting their own way. But come on, when people look at that and say my dear God, are we paying them those kind of bucks to act like children? Why don't we just send children? At least we'd know it's children who are acting crazy, but here we have grown adults, men - 50- and 60- and 70-year olds - acting like two-year olds.
Things have to change. We can pick up any newspaper, it's politics; turn on the radio, it's politics. So we're being inundated 24/7 by politics, but the thing is, there comes a point when it's almost like silly season - that has to change. If you're going to engage these people and get them back to vote, so be it, give them a little bit of personal touch.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for your presentation. Is there anyone else who wishes to come forward and share with us their thoughts, suggestions, or any comments on what they believe or anything that they've heard up to now this evening?
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: I had no intentions of doing this, but since you're not having many people come forward, I'll come forward to speak.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Sounds great. If you could just introduce yourself and tell us where you're from.
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: My name is Eldon MacDonald and I'm from Sydney. I'm one of the most recently non-elected councillors of our municipal elections, but I'll make it clear that I wasn't defeated. I did very well in the election, I was very happy, I guess I came up to basically share some of the input that I received - whether it helps provincially or
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federally, we'll wait and see what the turnout is in the next provincial election. We already know that the federal election, of course, was quite dismal. I hope you guys have some success in changing those numbers.
Some comments that were made by the speaker previous to me. I watch Legislative TV, sometimes I'm turned off by it, I agree, but many times I've tuned in and watched it. It's like children playing in the playground, and I don't mean that to be offensive but that's how it comes across when I watch it.
I attended the Legislature in Grade 9 and I watched people throwing balls of paper across the table in the room. That's a thought that's never left me since Grade 9. I'm 44 years old, just turned 44.
There needs to be more respect shown, I think, in the Legislature because I don't see that when I watch Legislative TV and I think that's a huge issue. Does that cause a low voter turnout? Probably not, because most people don't watch Legislative TV. That might be a good thing because if they did, you may have a 15 per cent turnout. I think it's up to you guys, as elected officials, to change the way you behave and portray yourself to the public that does watch, and I mean that with all due respect.
When I knocked on doors this municipal election, I knocked on about 2,700, 2,800 homes, visited every home I could find. I spoke about the issues that were facing our municipality with every person who would give me the time. I would say that 98 per cent of those people gave me the time; many people not answering were on the phone long distance, whatever the reason they couldn't. They were surprised at the issues that I raised with them. They were used to people possibly knocking on their door, leaving their card, leaving their name and leaving their door. People weren't speaking about the issues.
This was my second time offering for municipal elections. I heard it the last election and I heard it again this election, so I think it's important that the public know what the issues are. Not all the public is in tune with what's happening in our communities across the province. It's their choice to be in tune or not in tune but, in my opinion, it would be your choice when you're on their doorstep to make sure that they are in tune in the amount of time that you get with them, whether that be five minutes or 15 minutes or 20 minutes or a half-hour.
You guys have all been through it - there are times you're at a door for five minutes and there are times when you're in a home for an hour. You have the ability to make those people more conscious of what's happening because most of them don't know, in my opinion, a great deal of what's happening in their own municipality.
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I've been attending our council meetings monthly for the last eight years. I did that because I wanted to be aware of what was going on. I wanted to do that so that when I offered for election, I understood and could speak to the people about those issues. I didn't want to hand them a card and leave their doorstep and tell them they could call me if they needed a drive.
That's what a lot of politicians do - and I'm not referring to the candidates that I ran against in the municipal election, I'm talking about candidates across the municipality, or provincially, or federally. I didn't see one candidate for a federal election, never laid eyes on him, didn't stop at my door, didn't drop anything in my mailbox - no literature, period, nothing. How am I supposed to know what anybody stands for when no Party gives me even something to read? Granted, a lot of people throw them in the garbage and don't read them but if 20 per cent of the people read it - and I'm one of those 20 per cent - I can't be informed if you don't send me the literature to read.
So how do I get engaged to even want to go out if I don't know what anybody stands for? Sure, I watch Legislative TV, I watch the news, I read the paper, I try to be informed, and because of those things I feel comfortable where I place my ballot or I place my vote. But I don't think most people - and maybe it's not fair for me to say it - pay that close attention to it. So it's up to elected officials to make sure that they get that message out.
If I had to rely solely on the literature I got in my mailbox for the federal election, how would I even know how to vote? Nothing, not one piece of literature, and if I did get one from one Party, why should I cast my vote for any other Party that sent me nothing. If I'm basing it on what they're standing for, I only have one option of where to put my vote and that's the one person who sent me literature.
How do you get that message out there? I don't know. I understand you guys are busy, you're away from your homes and your families, and it's a little bit different provincially and federally than it is municipally because municipal is on the ground - your local representative. There has to be something to change. If we continue to go in the direction we're going, I believe Halifax - and you guys, Maureen, you can correct me if I'm wrong, or anybody else in the Halifax area - I think it was 37 per cent or 39 per cent for the mayoralty. I don't know if that's the lowest ever but it has to be close.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: It's 1 per cent higher than in the last election.
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: Seniors - at least this is how I feel, personal opinion, I could be wrong - but seniors, in my opinion, are the people going to vote and I'm just going to pick - not that everyone from 50 up is a senior, but those are the people who are voting. As we already said, the 18- to 35-year olds aren't voting. I don't know where we're going to be when the 35-year olds are 55 and the 18-year olds are 35. I mean, do you run your municipality, your province or your country on 18 per cent of the people or 15 per cent of the
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people who are turning out? There's no easy answer, but I think you guys, as elected politicians, have to try to somehow find a way to get more in tune with the public and make them aware of exactly what's going on and that they can make a difference. It's not an easy task to do, but I think it's something that has to be considered. That's about all I have to say so I thank you for the opportunity to speak.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clarke.
HON. CECIL CLARKE: Thanks very much, and first and foremost I agree with you. You know, those of us, or for some of us, when you offer for politics you're not always successful the first round and you learn from that experience and you may broaden it. I ran federally before I ran provincially, and you learn by the way the issues do shift between federal and provincial, as you would know, and as you say on a more local level of those curbside issues that people want addressed.
Do you think that one of the things we've experienced - and we have as a society, I know Josephine had talked about it in reference to people's apathy and complacency - is it overall a fact, or is there a possibility that we just live in a more, you know - society has been stable. When you talk about it, it's just more of the same, because we haven't had the type of fluctuations that you saw years ago when you went from a Diefenbaker or into a Trudeau era - or those fundamental issues. Are we riding a level of assumed prosperity because as was mentioned, quickly, by Josephine, how things quickly shifted if there's something that changed, and one thing that changed was energy issues. They just blew every other concern off the radar and had people's attention and then, again, you see a bit of that downward trend and people are kind of going, you know, if the weather stays good and, you know, hope springs eternal.
Is it possibly that we just have not had that huge difference that political Parties have not been able to fundamentally differentiate themselves on issues because the economy is going pretty good? Even here there have been adjustments to the point that even in Cape Breton, where we went from, you know - we've seen the shifts from all one Party and now we have a representation of all three political Parties in different areas and that has not, in the last couple of rounds, shifted greatly here. Do you think that could be something that, you know - we're just in a relatively good era where we've had stable funding and people always debated, but there hasn't been that crisis that has changed how people think.
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: I don't know. I wouldn't think that would be the case. I don't know that people feel we're stable or that everything is running smoothly. Previous to the last two years I travelled to Halifax approximately every six to eight weeks. I did that for 14 years and I watched Halifax bust at the seams. I'll use the Bayers Lake Park - when I first started going there you could drive backwards and you couldn't get in an accident if you tried to. Today you have to have three people watching out the windows to where you're going because you're going to get into an accident.
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So things are rolling smoothly up there, I can't say they're rolling as smoothly here. There have been some changes, absolutely, but I don't think anybody feels any stability here. I've been a business owner in downtown Sydney for 19 years and I've watched a tremendous amount of business from my hair salon go out West. There's nothing stable. My dad works out West and sends his $100,000 to $150,000 paycheque to Sydney to my mom and me while he's out there. That's stabilizing our economy, but it's a terrible way to stabilize your families. That's a problem that's happening here in our municipality. There are far too many people who are working out West.
I don't know how you change that. I see things on the horizon and I understand some issues that are happening and I understand them fairly well because of how much attuned I am about what's been happening in our municipality. In 10 years' time can we say there's a different story? I hope so, but I'm 44 and I've watched it go this year this way my whole life. In the last five years, maybe a couple of steps this way, but we don't need to do this, we need to do this and this isn't happening here.
I don't think you would hear the story of we feel fairly stable, we feel fairly good, things seem to be going good in the province and we're okay with that, so we're not going to go out and vote. I don't think people are thinking in that manner. I know what's going on here, I'm not in tune with Yarmouth or Pictou or the other parts. Most of the last 14 years I've been travelling back and forth between Halifax - I got to see Halifax and, of course, living here. But I don't think that would be the case.
[7:45 p.m.]
A couple of other things I can mention, I guess - it comes back more from the federal election and things I saw that I wasn't happy with as an electorate - is the negative campaigning. We saw that from our national Leaders. I don't want to hear negative campaigning. I want to hear what you're going to do for me as opposed to what the other person is going to do for me. I'll make reference to the Conservative campaign.
Just a stone's throw away from my house there was a huge sign that said: If you want higher oil prices, vote for Mark Eyking - it was a Conservative sign. I want to know what the Conservatives are going to do for me, not what Mark Eyking's going to do for me. If you're a Conservative candidate, tell me what you're going to do for me, don't tell me what Mark Eyking's going to do for me. Mark Eyking's going to run, I want Mark to tell me what he's going to do for me, not what Kristen Rudderham's going to do.
I think sometimes there is too much of that. That, in my opinion, is putting a bad taste in the people that do vote. You're turning off people that are voting by saying, this is sad, this is foolishness, these people are just ridiculous, I'm not even going to bother to go vote. So your 50-, 60-, 70-year olds are saying, I'm staying home too, I'm staying home with the 18-
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year olds and the 20-year olds. So your 50 per cent to 60 per cent - and I consider a 60 per cent turnout terrible, but I guess if we get to 60 per cent again we'll be ecstatic.
I'd like to see voter turnout to be 75 per cent to 80 per cent; that's a long way to go. I think you're going from 60 per cent down to 50 per cent down to 40 per cent because of two reasons, I guess. Unfortunately, seniors get older and when you get up in your 80s and 90s you become a very old senior, I guess, and in your 90s, and there's a good chance that soon you're not going to be here so you lose that voter through the process of life, of course.
But the ones who are 70 and into their 80s and 90s, if you turn them offyou're lost. Maybe that's part of the process of why we're going from a 50 per cent turnout to a 30 per cent turnout, or whatever the next one will be. I understand the federal, I think, was 59 per cent, but it's still a very sad turnout. So you can't be doing things, running negative campaigns, turning off the person who wants to go out and vote. It's just, to me, a bad way.
I didn't like it; anybody I spoke to didn't like it; people who came through my business talked about it - it's negative. Who wants to listen to negativity? Tell me something positive, tell me what you're going to do for me and tell me why you're going to make a difference.
Maybe I'll be watching all your campaigns next time to see how negative you are. That's a little side note, I guess, to Cecil's question there.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bain.
MR. BAIN: Thanks. I'd like to just change the topic, Eldon, if I could for a minute. In this past municipal election, Internet voting was introduced in the HRM. We just heard that the turnout was 37 per cent, even with Internet voting. In your opinion, would Internet voting make a difference, where we live?
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: I already thought of that throughout this campaign and what it would do to at least municipal - I would think it would, but when I heard the results of the Halifax turnout it made me kind of think maybe I was wrong. If you want a one-word answer, I would have said yes, but my understanding is that there was a 39 per cent turnout - was it, in Halifax? - 37 per cent. I understand, if I'm correct, in the news tonight it said 30 per cent of that was from the Internet. I don't know, can you track if it was youth on the Internet or seniors on the Internet? I don't know, but if it was youth, I guess it's a good thing. If it was just seniors at home that voted on the Internet, I guess it really doesn't change anything.
I think definitely it is a good thing to do - how much of a difference it's going to make I don't know. I would think it would make a huge difference myself. Without any thought, research, or any kind of discussion on it, the first thing that comes to my mind is I
[Page 14]
would think the voter turnout would go up substantially. Halifax's polls, of course, were just the advanced; the general election was done by regular ballot. I don't know, I guess we'll just have to do a full election, buy it and find out. From what I understand with our municipality - and the province, I believe, is going to be totally electronic, the next election I think, at least I think our municipality is, at least that's what they're discussing and looking at anyway. It's being kicked around, I guess.
MR. BAIN: I know that the federal government was keeping an eye on the HRM pilot. I guess one of the things we hear is that Internet voting will allow for people with a busy lifestyle, they don't have to worry about going to an advanced poll, they don't need to worry about going to a regular poll - in the comfort of their home they can vote. When you consider numbers, how many really took advantage of it, and is there more apathy regardless of what you have, whether it's going to a poll or having Internet voting?
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: Maybe it's not a fair statement, but when you raised about people wanting to go out to vote and busy people, I think if you talk to anybody they're probably going to tell you that they have a busy life. They work during the day, they go home to the kids in the evening, they put the kids to bed and they correct work if they're teachers, or after this board meeting or after that board meeting, or they sit on this committee or they belong to this group or this organization - I think everybody will probably tell you they lead a pretty busy lifestyle. People who say that they couldn't vote because of that busy lifestyle I think - and maybe it's not fair for me to say this - they just don't really feel that it's a big issue and a big deal to go out and vote and it's not really because they're busy.
If there was a huge issue on the table that was going to make a major impact in their lives - the income tax is going up 3,000 per cent - they'd haul the soccer team in the van with them and go vote. That's what it would take. They'd be there, they'd make their "X" mark and they'd say, boys we're going to blow the whistle and in the time out it's time to vote and finish this game after we vote. I exaggerate there a little bit, but the interest has to be there. Everybody is busy. I'm busy, I sit on boards and I sit on committees - I could be somewhere else rather than coming here. I could be home watching TV, doing nothing. I chose to come here because it was available and to come out to see what people have to say.
I think your voter turnout - and no offence to your meeting here tonight, I'm glad to be able to come to listen, and of course I had no intention of speaking but I hate to see a turnout where only one person wants to have something to say - I think if you look behind me, it gives you an indication of why you have a low voter turnout. I don't know how many chairs are behind me but I think I'd be safe in saying the majority of them are empty. It's sad that they're not all full, but they're not all full because people really don't care about the process, because at the end of the day - and I don't mean this literally - people think you guys don't care.
[Page 15]
I don't feel that way, but I think too many people do feel that way. I'm here because I care, and you guys are here because you care, and everybody behind me, I think, is here for the same reason but the chairs aren't full because they feel that they really don't care. I can't speak for the people who aren't here, but that's kind of how I feel, that's how I think - I could be completely wrong, but that's what comes to my mind.
MR. BAIN: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Wilson.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Hey, Eldon.
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: How are you doing, Dave?
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Long time no see.
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: Been a little while.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Yes, it has been awhile.
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: Originally from the Bay, so . . .
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): We lost a good one, but it's Sydney's gain.
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: There you go, that's the way you have to look at us.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I'm interested in all of it, I have to say, but in particular a couple of things - and I think you hit the nail on the head because it's the same theme we heard this afternoon from young people: they don't care. That was prevalent in everything we heard from every young person we've talked to in our very young life as this select committee - and I'm sure we're going to hear it across the rest of the province. I guess we're kind of tasked with the job of trying to find something that would make them change that attitude that they didn't care. I don't know what it is.
Before we get into that, you know yourself, as a candidate - and by the way it was a pretty interesting comment you made when you didn't lose - the fact that it takes a lot to put your name on a ballot these days, so congratulations for doing that in the first place.
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: Thank you.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): When you go knocking on doors, some people vote because it is issue-driven; some people vote because it's the way their dad voted; and some people vote because you were the first one to knock on the door. If you had been the
[Page 16]
second one you weren't going to get their vote - that's just the way it is in elections. I don't know, if you can figure that out let me know because I haven't figured it out yet.
What do we do to try to change people's attitudes? What I found so far by talking to people is that you came from a certain generation and from the day that you were old enough to put that ballot in the box, you thought it was the most important thing that you had ever done. To a generation now that has never done that, has no desire to do that whatsoever - they think politics is the worst thing that was ever invented and that all politicians are in your pockets, cheating, grabbing, lying - I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts on that. And I know you're on the spot because you walked up out of the cold, but any thoughts on what could be done to try to change that?
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: That's a good question - that's what you guys are here to do. Nothing comes to mind off the top of my head - as I said, I wasn't prepared to even speak, and so of course I wasn't prepared to take any interest in what I had to say. No, it's just not an easy thing to figure out.
You made the comment that what was prevalent this afternoon was they don't care. My question, I guess, if I can ask that back to you by way of a question is, did you ask them why they didn't care, and what was their answer?
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Yes, they had a lot of reasons why. There was one young man who was there this afternoon who didn't vote because he had to work and he had school and he didn't have the time, but he also didn't know that there were advance polls, that you could vote by proxy.
In Halifax they did try the Internet, and I think that's the way of the future. We have to go that way, but we have to be careful. In Halifax, they had dead people that they gave PIN numbers to - but no voter's list is perfect, we've learned that.
Very briefly, my opinion on trying to get young people is we have to appeal to them and we have to convince them that this is important stuff that we're talking about here - and that starts out when you educate young people. One comment that stood out for me this afternoon was, we had a Grade 12 political science teacher who said that she had taught some lessons to Grade 5 - no, five-year olds, to start them at that age, to tell them how important it is to be involved in the process, to be involved with voting and why they're doing it. And unless you reach them starting at that age, I don't know, I think we've lost maybe a generation or so of people we'll never convince to vote - that's what I'm worried about.
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: I would say that you're probably right. I know in all my years that I was eligible to vote, I have never missed a vote municipally, provincially, or federally - I feel it's important that you do that. But like you say, if you have people who are 18-years old and they've never voted, and they're now 45 and they have kids of their own,
[Page 17]
they're not going to tell them to go vote. Why would they tell them to go vote? They haven't voted themselves. So you've lost the whole family, not only the wife and the husband - and like I said, you guys are here trying to figure out how to change that. I don't know what it is; I don't know why.
You know, it's off topic I guess to raise this issue, but it's the same thing as kind of when you look at the criminal system today and our youth - our youth are very much seen to the public as being out of control and rebellious. School is a lot different than when I was in school - and it wasn't that many years ago. Is it a reflection that, you know, people are growing up and they're not being parented the same way we were parented, as I was parented, or as my parents were parented, because my parents always voted because my grandparents always voted. That trickles down to your family system, but somewhere along the line society has changed greatly - whether it's electing or whether it's crime in your cities and drugs in your cities, society has changed greatly.
What changed society? Maybe there's an answer to the voting in just figuring out what's wrong with society itself - and maybe if you can answer some of those other topics that aren't connected to voting, maybe that helps with bringing the family back together. And if you bring the family back together maybe you're going to have a closer-knit community that will be more respectful of what's happening in the community, which would mean maybe they would be more apt to go out and vote. I think that's probably a really crazy thought to be honest with you, but I'm trying to give the rationale that society is completely different, in all kinds of different phases of life, than when I was a child - and I don't think that was too long ago. It's getting longer and longer, I guess.
[8:00 p.m.]
You made the comment "first person at the door" and you're trying to figure out why people go out and vote and people don't. I knocked on a door and there was nobody home. I knocked again and there was nobody home, so I was filling out a "sorry I missed you" card, as everybody does, and as I was doing that the family drove in the driveway. Two people got out of the car, a husband and wife. I introduced myself and they invited me in, and I went in and spoke to them for about 10 or 15 minutes. The first thing she said to me was, funny that you're on my doorstep today, my husband and I got up this morning, we left the house and we were trying to figure out who we were going to vote for.
Both young, don't vote, and they said we're not even going to bother. Then later that morning she looked at her husband and she said, do you know what? I am going to go out and vote; I'm going to go out and vote for the first person who knocks at my door, that I see next - and I was standing on their doorstep.
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When I left that house, I had discussed with them our economy, I discussed with them our financial situation with our legal case with the provincial government - if you can excuse me for bringing that up I guess, but it's an issue - I spoke to everyone on our port development and a number of issues that we're facing across the municipality and out-migration and our Alberta situation. When I finished speaking to those people they had a four-by-four sign on their front lawn and guaranteed me that both of them would go out and vote . Did they go out and vote? Well, I'll have to wait until I get all my papers back and check that, but if they went out and voted, I'm going to assume they voted for me.
As you guys know, when you go behind that box, you don't know if your parents are going to vote for you, at the end of the day, but I assume they went out and voted and I assume I received their vote. But they were two people who woke up that morning who weren't going out to vote, and I had said to the lady: With all due respect, I hope I don't lose a vote but you should never vote for the first person who shows up on your doorstep. You should vote for the individual who shows up and gives you a reason why they're the best candidate to mark your ballot for. That's what I said to her.
Now, does that cost me a vote because I was the first person on the doorstep who told her she shouldn't do that? I hope not, and I doubt that would happen, but that's the apathy that's out there with the voter. She wasn't the only person to say that to me, but it is just coincidental of course that I happened to be practically leaving their driveway and they just happened to be pulling in - and they were probably late 20s maybe, or maybe not even late 20s, mid-20s, so they were just a young couple.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Theriault.
MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: Thank you, Mr. MacDonald. I asked this question this afternoon of the children, the younger people, what they thought of mandatory voting that's going on around the world. In Australia, 99.9 per cent of the people go to vote. I don't know whether it's good or bad, you know. The young people this afternoon, I felt them being positive about it - you know, that it may be a way to at least get people started toward the right direction. I don't know if it is - what are your thoughts on that?
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: That's another good question. I don't know, I don't know enough about the idea of mandatory voting. It was probably last night or the night before that I was listening to TV, and I can't remember what I was listening to, but they made comment about mandatory voting and penalties if you didn't and stuff of this nature and was it a good idea. I can't remember now if it was news, I just caught a blurb of it so I don't know enough about it, so if you don't go out and vote - there was a comment that I remember - they'd throw him in jail, but I suspect that wouldn't happen. Of course it would create lots of work because we would have to build jails and employ people but it's just not an effective way to go, I guess. I don't know - do you fine them if they don't vote? Is that what it is, a
[Page 19]
financial penalty? Is that what most countries would do? I don't know, it depends on how big the fine is.
I guess it's the same as speeding, if you want to slow someone down - if you're going to charge them $50, you'll slow some down, but if you're going to charge them $1,050, you'll slow a few more down. If you're going to charge them $50 for not voting, some people would just give them the $50; if you charge them $5,000, they'd probably show up at the poll. So I don't know enough about that type of a process or how effective - I mean I just couldn't imagine what type of penalty you would put in place to encourage people to go out and vote.
I'm exaggerating with the $5,000, but if you really want them to go out and vote, it's going to have to be a substantial penalty. You can't just give them a small penalty because I think most people would probably still - they have to come find me to get me and there's approximately 109,000 in CBRM. If you have 60 per cent of them who didn't show up, do you mail it out to every residence? How do you find everybody in the province? And if you're doing it by a country, how do you find everybody in Canada, and what kind of paperwork is involved in trying to find that voter and make sure they get the fine and then chase them down and send the police to the door and the police to everybody's door who didn't vote? I don't know how you would even do that.
If the fine was $10 and I didn't vote and there were 60,000 people who didn't vote, would you send the police officer to my door? Is that how they would fine you? Are you going to be taking the police resources off the streets to go around to someone's door because they didn't vote and charge them $10? Is that an effective way to be using your police force or your court systems? There are more important issues that should be before our courts than fining someone $10 for not voting. So I don't know. It sounds like it's a good idea because I think it would force people to come and vote, if it was substantial, but how do you go about issuing those fines and how do you go about issuing - that could be a nightmare, I don't know.
MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: I think it remains for future discussions.
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: Oh absolutely, it's an interesting - you know, I think it would make a lot of people go out and vote. My thing is - I guess if you have the 99 per cent turnout, you're not so bad, you can chase down 1 per cent. But the first time out, if you still had a 70 per cent not turn out and you got to chase those 70 per cent down because you can't pick and choose which, you know - 100,000 didn't vote but let's just send out fines for 60 per cent of the 100,000 that didn't turn out, I don't know.
MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: What would the worst-case scenario be - what you're talking about - if no one in this country went out and voted at all? What would the consequences be for this country if everyone decided to stay home and not vote?
[Page 20]
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: If everyone stayed home and there was no fine or anything and everybody - you had an election and nobody showed up - that's what you're saying - what would be the consequences? I would think - and I might be completely wrong here in saying this - but I would think that most people would feel there would be none because the country would just continue running the way it was run before the election. So if people are happy enough with how things are the week before the election and then you have an election that takes a month, and you have a zero turnout at the polls, the following week after that everything continues on as it was five weeks previous to the election - and I think that's how most people would feel, that things would just continue to work the same way.
I wouldn't, personally, myself feel there would be a change. I don't know how you see yourselves as elected officials with nobody electing you. I don't know if that means you have government or if it means that everybody is there, stays there by acclamation because nobody ran - well, I don't know, I guess you would have people running against you, just not elected, I don't know. It's a good question, but people would probably just think that things are just going to run the same way anyway, which is part of why you have the apathy of people not going out to vote to begin with, things are just going to run the same way anyway, whether they turn out or not.
So the country is not going to fall apart if I don't turn out, the province isn't going to fall apart if I don't turn out, nor will the municipality fall apart if I don't turn out. So I just stay home and things just - the status quo is fine. I think that's how people would feel if you had zero turnout, I think everything - now, I don't know if everything would be all right. Personally, I wouldn't think that it would be but . . .
MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: I'm just asking these questions as food for thought. Good stuff to . . .
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: Yes, absolutely, I don't know how good an answer you're getting but . . .
MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: I don't know the answer either but it is something to think about because it is a reality, it could be a reality.
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: Well, I don't know if you'd get right down to zero but I tell you, when I hear of 37 per cent and stuff like that - I mean, I personally wasn't happy with our last municipal elections, which was about 68 per cent. I thought that was low and I know it's not extremely low, I'd like to see 75 to 80 per cent or a bit higher, but at least 75 per cent of the voter turnout. So when you're getting down to 30 per cent of it, to me as a young person, that's scary to me because, and I already said it, when your 30-year olds are 55 years old or your 18-year olds are 35 years old and you're down to that 18 per cent or 10 per cent, we're going to be in terrible desperate shape. I know that's a contradiction to say
[Page 21]
that if nobody showed up, it's the status quo and would just remain the same but it's just - I don't know.
I just think it's terrible that we have a downhill slide constantly, it seems, and all of us and it's just not a good thing for anybody. It's not a good thing for you guys, it's not a good thing for your communities, it's not a good thing for your neighbourhoods, I don't think.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Theriault. Mr. Dunn.
MR. PATRICK DUNN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for coming tonight and for participating in this. I want to thank everyone in the seats behind you for taking the time because I'm sure there are a lot of places you'd like to be tonight and you took the time to come here.
I'm going to make a comment and it's not a question, I just want to - maybe you can comment after I make a couple of statements. I'm looking at the family dynamics over, let's say, a few decades. I can remember as a youngster, and beyond that, where there was a lot of political talk within families. I can remember my grandparents, I can remember my parents, I can remember my uncles and aunts, I can remember Sunday afternoons, if you were somewhere, they were often talking politics. Politics was one of the main topics and I don't really see that anymore.
Yes, there's political talk at Tim Hortons or the barbershop, but you go to the typical family and things have really changed in many ways. In many areas, there's a faster pace, people are more involved in doing activities, doing things away from the home. Often meals are not - there's no engagement at meals because you're having a piece of pizza at the pizza shop on the way to the rink or the soccer field or whatever. So I guess if there is a question I'd be saying, have you experienced or seen the same thing with regard to just run-of-the-mill, ordinary political talk around the kitchen that, in my experience, doesn't seem to happen as much as it used to be?
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: I would agree 100 per cent with what you're saying. I have a hair salon and you're supposed to not talk about two things - politics and religion. Both got talked about in my salon so I'm assuming they got talked about in all the other salons too. In my particular business it's been talked about and I think will continue to be talked about. That's just the way of life, I guess.
Like you say, family demographics is an issue. It's kind of like I said, when I went on to talk about society changing in general, does that have an effect on why we have a low voter turnout. You raised the issue, and I might get shot for saying this, but I know - where I usually eat supper, Kim and myself go to her sister's, we live side by side and we usually eat supper there. Of course, they've got a couple of kids and the dad works night shift, he's
[Page 22]
not at the table, one kid is in the living room watching TV, the other is upstairs and they're having supper.
I always used to make the comment, and I still continue to and I might be shot if they hear me saying this - don't show this on Legislative TV - I don't understand why one's upstairs and one's in the living room and one's at the kitchen table - what happened to the family? Different times I'll make that remark because growing up myself, my dad worked with the Liquor Commission for 24 years. He got off at six o'clock. We didn't have supper at five o'clock like most families, we had supper at six o'clock. But when we had supper - myself, my brother, my mother and father, my sister - we all had supper together. That's the way it was all my life.
Kim and I don't have any children, but I can tell you if I had any children, when supper was ready at five o'clock, there would be me, Kim and our children at the table. If you can't take a half-hour out of your time to pull yourself from the TV, or the video game, or the computer, or whatever it is you're doing, you should be able to have that time at least to sit down together as a family and talk. That's not happening.
If it were my family, I think it would be happening. I might be crazy. I might have a family of two kids and one might be upstairs in the bedroom and one in the living room watching TV, but I don't think that would be the case. Does that make a dysfunctional family? Absolutely not. But it still makes me wonder, when you say - you hear it all the time - people say they're too busy to go out and vote. You hear people saying it's a two-operation family now. Mom's out to work and Dad's out to work, Mom's not home and Dad gets home and he's taking the kids here and Mom's taking the other kids there. Everybody's all over the place, there's not enough time to get together at one time.
[8:15 p.m.]
Everybody eats and I think most families are still eating at suppertime and most families are still eating at dinnertime - maybe not every day of the week but most families are in the household, I think, at least for an hour together at some point in time during the day. They may be together in the household, but they're not together in the room - whether that be your kitchen table or your living room or your family room. It's a house divided, I guess, not necessarily in a way of saying divided as dysfunctional, but everybody's doing their own thing. Mom's doing her thing, Johnny's on the computer, Lisa's on the Nintendo and Dad's out at a board meeting.
I think, like you say, the family value thing has changed greatly and that has changed the way society is. I think it's changed the way society is. Does that change, in general, reflect in a low voter turnout? I don't know, maybe it does. If it does then you have a bigger problem on your hands than you think because you don't only have to fix the voter turnout,
[Page 23]
you have to fix what's wrong with society in regard to why families are not together like they are, why youth are seen as a problem in society today.
It's unfortunate, I'm sure the majority of youth are good youth and are respectful of society. Youth who aren't respectful of society get all the time on the news. They get the air play so it makes the youth look dysfunctional or rebellious, but it's probably a small percentage of that youth, but it appears to be all youth. It's wrong to paint all youth with that brush because not all youth are bad in society - I suspect it's probably a minority but it doesn't seem like it's a minority.
I don't know if those issues all come together or not, but there's definitely a problem with the way things are happening in our society. If you fix some of those things, does it bring families together for more discussions around the table and, if it does, does it allow for one of those discussions to be politics as opposed to who won the hockey game last night? If it does, politics will be spoken about more around the table and if it's spoken about more around the table, it might get a little more air time come election day and the youth might go out and vote, if the family's talking about it.
How do you get the family around to talk about it when they're spread all over the place? Not an easy thing to solve, of course.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Dunn. Mr. Bain.
MR. BAIN: Thanks again, thank you for the second time. Josephine brought it up and, Eldon, now you've brought it up as well, the attitude of voters that things aren't going to change so why go out and vote. I guess the question is, if you want things to change, you have to get out and vote.
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: That's why I vote.
MR. BAIN: So how do we get that message across? We have often heard the expression over the years, if you don't vote, don't complain. So how do we get the word out that if you want change, you'll have to vote?
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: I don't know. As I say, it's a hard answer. I think you guys are going to have, gentlemen and ladies, I should say . . .
MR. BAIN: Maybe none of us around here, in order to maintain our seats, want things to change. (Laughter)
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: Probably a true story. I don't know, it's a hard answer to figure out. The youth just for whatever reason are disengaged and how you bring them around to . . .
[Page 24]
MR. BAIN: So it's more of an education process, would you say that if we educated our electorate more?
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: I don't know. When you say educated, what do you mean by educated? Do you just send newsletters out?
MR. BAIN: Well, just the thing, if you want change and the only way you can get change is to get out and vote.
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: Yes. I think if you're more connected to the community and more accessible to the community, you're more apt to have people maybe participate in the process but how do you get the voters out to participate in that process? You can go and say, well, you know, if you elect me, I'll have quarterly meetings and meet with the public. Mr. Samson said, well, I'll come and visit you once a week. Well, the gentleman doesn't want to see you once a week. If you had a quarterly meeting every three months and you had - I'll just pick numbers off the top of my head - if you have 10,000 constituents in your riding and 20 of them show up every three months, those 20 are probably going to go out and vote.
You have to - I don't know, you have to try to figure ways out and I think you have to be somehow more connected. You always say that, you know, the most connected government is the municipal government because they're on the ground and they're accessible. It's easy to pick the phone up and get your local councillor because he's in your community. It's harder to get, of course, your MLA or your MP because they're not in your community, they are absent and because of that absenteeism, there's a disconnect. Well, maybe elected officials, provincially and federally, have to be seen in their communities more. Mr. Samson made the comment that, you know, maybe he's seen too much.
I understand that in your local communities and rural communities and stuff of that nature that people maybe see you in the mall, or if you're walking down the street, or if you're in a restaurant. You're being seen but you're not being effective in explaining what you're doing for the community other than being seen, and somehow I think you have to try to bring that across more. It's not enough just to be seen. You have to try to find out how you make sure that voter understands that you're making a difference.
By being seen in the community and saying that you're accessible, people are seeing you, they're probably for the most part not literally accessing you. They're not coming into your office, they're not dropping in to see you, they're not calling you on the telephone, but they're seeing you in the mall and they're seeing you in restaurants. So they see you and they know you're there, they know what you're doing. They know your job but they're still not being communicated to directly. Is there still a disconnect there? You are being seen but yet there may still be a disconnect there where they don't feel they still have that direct connection.
[Page 25]
I think if you had a way to supply that direct connect, you will be more apt to have that individual go out and vote whether they be 69 years old, 79 years old or 29 years old. If you're connecting with an individual, that individual I suspect is going to vote. I understand you can't connect with 100 per cent of your constituents, but you have to try to connect with the majority of them and I would suspect that's not happening.
When I say connecting with them, I mean on a one-to-one basis as opposed to a newsletter or a community forum. I think it's unfortunate when you have, such as this tonight, you know, people don't participate in the process. As was said earlier, people may be more comfortable having discussions over a cup of tea. I know you can't go to every house and have a cup of tea, you wouldn't have any time to spend in the Legislature if you were doing that. But there has to be some balance between having the cup of tea and having the ability to spend your time in Halifax as is necessary to do the job you're elected to do. It's a balance, not an easy one to find.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Bain and Mr. MacDonald, thank you for stepping forward and sharing those thoughts with us. I'm sure, on behalf of all the members of the committee, we certainly want to commend you for having shown leadership in your community by putting your name forward and allowing yourself and your family to be part of the democratic process. We want to commend you for that and, again, thank you for taking the time tonight, on very short notice, but coming forward and answering the committee's questions.
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: I appreciate the time that I was given, and of course enjoyed answering the questions and - no offence - it's terrible to see a turnout and then to have one person come up and speak and the others just sit quietly, that doesn't do anything to help you guys do your job. I'm hoping maybe there's a line-up of people behind me here, I haven't turned around, but hopefully we'll have another person, or two, or three come up to the table and speak. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. MacDonald. Is there anyone else who wishes to come forward and share some thoughts or ideas with the committee at this time?
MS. KENNEDY: I just have one more thing to say, just one quick thing. Maybe it's an advertisement that you can use, the power is in the "X".
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, very straightforward. Does anyone else wish to present?
MS. DIANNE THERIAULT: Hi there. My name's Dianne Theriault and I'm from Digby and I'm here following along with my husband, Harold Theriault.
[Page 26]
I've been listening to people speak and I've been involved with the election process in my area ever since Junior got involved in politics. For a long time I never voted and I wasn't interested in politics. My father was on one side of politics and my mother was on the other side and when they talked politics in my house, there was always a fight so it never - and my grandparents, I remember them speaking about politics, as you probably all have too.
I also remember in school - it's been a long, long time ago - we had civics in school and it taught us about our levels of government. I remember having civics in school when I was in Grades 7, 8 and 9 - not in Grade 12, it was political science. I believe there's a disconnect with the knowledge that young people have nowadays about how the government runs and I believe education is probably a key, something that needs to be adjusted - just like that woman said. I was sitting in the group where that woman this afternoon said she spoke to that Grade 5 class and they seemed to be very engaged about politics at that age. I think that when you get into an older group, they probably have other interests.
I really do think, too, that our government is a reactionary government, it's not a visionary government. Until you have a vision that allows people to see a plan or a road, a path that you can lead them. And leadership is also a problem - not only in our province, we're seeing it right now at the federal level.
Another thing that I see is, it was very, very hard for people to vote this time. My mother found it very difficult to find out - she's 81, and she was not upset but she was very confused about where she had to vote and because probably of the layers of elections that were going on this time there were too many things, too much information coming in and none of it was really straightforward. So there are all kinds of things going on right now that confuse people, the layers of bureaucracy that people have to go through to get anything done in government these days. If you go to the Internet to try to find out a little bit of information - where do you go, who do you go to? - it's like you're alone, you're by yourself. I think that trickles down to our children.
We also have a huge portion of our children who have left and gone out West. Luckily, our daughter just left a year and a half ago to go to B.C., but our other children are in the area and we consider ourselves very lucky. It has to do again with the vision of the government, they're not seeing that our children need to be trained in the resources that we have here. What can we envision for our children, for our future, to have here to train them, to put forth the education? These are the things we need to tackle.
[8:30 p.m.]
When we sit back and wait for energy prices to go through the roof and then react to our seniors and to our people who don't have the money to pay for it, we're just reacting to a problem. We're not looking for solutions. We've sold off our power company; we have no
[Page 27]
control over that now. When it's something important like that, we need to keep control of those things.
If we were a leader in teaching our young children as they were coming up, we were speaking last night that our children don't know anything about finances when they come out of high school, they don't even know how to balance a chequebook. We're teaching them the wrong things, our education paths are leading us the wrong way, some of the things are the wrong way - I shouldn't say everything is the wrong way. I think basically you have to start at the bottom and see what we're teaching our children. I really do think that we've lost a generation.
I have worked at the constituency level in the past four elections and I see the same people coming every time, but I don't see any young people. I see teenagers 14 years old, 16 years old, 17 years old, who are still in school, I see those people coming, but I don't see the 20-year olds to 35-year olds coming and working at the constituency level. I see some, but where's the next generation coming from that knows the process, that knows how to go out and get their vote out, where are the strategists coming from? I thank you for listening to my rant.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mrs. Theriault. Are there any other presenters who wish to come forward?
MS. BRENDA WALL: I just have one thing to say . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: If you can just state your name and address.
MS. WALL: Brenda Wall and I'm from Georges River. I worked on the last federal campaign and I have to say there are a lot of young people who are interested. How we're going to get the rest of them out, I don't know.
When I was talking to a few younger people, what I told them was, they weren't really interested and it was like, you know what, these people are looking for a job and you're on the hiring committee, and that's how I put it to them. Before you know it we had youngsters walking into the campaign office and I think that's what we have to do. You're looking for a job. In order to keep that job you have to keep working for us and in order to do that, we have to get that point across.
Basically, that's all I was going to say. I don't know if that makes sense, but it seemed to work with a few of the youngsters. I came from a family of 10 children, we always debated. We even made up our own political Parties - we didn't stick to the three that we have but, basically, we always did that. I think if we even start engaging them at a younger age - and D250 was fabulous. I have a niece and nephew who are eight and 10 and they're
[Page 28]
talking politics and they're talking politics with their friends, so I think it is working. We will get them back.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Many people have tried to link the low voter turnout in the federal election with D250, but I think the example you've just given is that it's going to be years before we see the overall results of what this effort was. It will be years before those young people are going to be of age to vote, but I think it has had a positive impact and we will see that with time, so I certainly appreciate those comments.
Any questions? Mr. Wilson.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Just one observation. Sometimes it can be the simplest of things which will make the biggest difference. When I went home this evening in between sessions, my daughter informed me that one of her friends, who wishes to remain anonymous - by the name of Trisha (Laughter) - actually went out and voted for the first time. I asked her because I had a talk with Trisha and I told her that I was going to be watching to see whether or not she voted, which kind of scared her a bit, but it's not the reason she went out to vote.
Why she wasn't going to vote, my daughter told me, was because she was intimidated by the fact that it was the first time - she had just turned 18 and she didn't know how. She didn't know what to do to walk up to a poll, where to mark an "X", what to do, how to go about it, because nobody had ever told her how to do it. In all of her schooling, she had never been taught anything about it; it's a simple thing like that. What happened, I found out later on, my wife sat down with her when she and my daughter were at home one night and my wife explained to her exactly what to do. She went and voted for the first time and she'll probably vote for the rest of her life, so it's the simple things, right?
MS. WALL: It's true. Even at work, we have a lot of people who haven't voted for years, but once you start engaging them in the conversation, they get a little bit of enthusiasm going. I think there was a 100 per cent turnout in my department, but everybody was reminded four times.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Brenda. Mr. McNeil, come forward. Give us your full name.
MR. ED MCNEIL: Ed McNeil, Glace Bay. I guess maybe if we started making civics compulsory in Nova Scotia schools, that would be one good way of - Grades 4 or 5.
I'm going to make a few comments and it has nothing to do with getting more people out to vote, I don't think it's going to happen, really, until we start teaching people in Grades 3 or 4 and bring them up.
[Page 29]
This mandatory voting like they have in Australia, I think it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. What are you going to do, point a gun to somebody's head and pretend that they're interested in politics? When they get there, maybe they'll be so pissed off that they'll spoil their ballot anyway, so that doesn't hold any water with me.
Another thing, this going door to door in this day and age, I think it's for the birds, rapping on 5,000, 6,000 doors or more. This is the 21st Century, that was all right in the horse-and-buggy days. I think you would have more response if you had more town hall meetings. I think it's hard to talk to everybody. It seems almost ridiculous, really, knocking on every door because, number one, they say they will vote for you and you can't believe them - maybe they will, maybe they won't - and I think they're bothering more people than anything.
I think politicians have to get with the times and these big signs, they should be banned. It would save everybody $7,000, $8,000, or more. With communication today, with the Internet, television, radio and satellite, we don't need all this. I think we're turning people off. I don't doubt they're saying, look at the money they're wasting, and if you think people are shy to get up to speak, well, have these teleconferences. Maybe the Liberals can have it one day and then the Tories one other week and talk to different people in different parts of the province, you know, where you can call in, like - what's his name? - Goldhawk, or Talk Back. (Laughter)
That's all I have to say as far as, you know, this knocking on every door. If you want to get - like, I think the biggest problem is that we're lazy and there's no doubt we take our democracy for granted in this country. So are things going that good that we don't vote or are things going that bad that we don't care? What happened - I think Confederation was built on regional disparity. Like, let's say shit rolls downhill and we're a have-not province because you've got to go to Ottawa with your hat in your hand to get money to make people in your riding happy, right? So the first thing they did was destroy Air Canada. Air Canada was formed with TCA to bring every part of the country together regardless of your economic situation - the poorest provinces and the richest provinces. Now it costs as much money to go to Halifax one way as it would to go to Toronto and back again - do you know what I mean?
Regional disparity - we let things get deregulated too much and then that's why - and most people don't understand the stock market. People want their kids to have an education and have a low-interest loan on their students, on their children. They are bread and butter issues. That's what people want. They don't want all this, you know - they want to come down to, or I should say come up to their level. I think they get kind of intimidated with the suits and the lawyers and all that and they don't want to speak. I think, like I said, if we talk to the people straight and let them know you're sincere, I think you might have more response but as far as have you seeing any more improvement, I don't mean to discourage you, it might happen and it might not. But like you said, and what Dave said, I think it's
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called civics - isn't it? - politics, start teaching them in Grade 3 or Grade 4 and educate them, they might vote more, I don't know. Any questions?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Parker.
MR. CHARLES PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess one recurring theme that I've heard here from the various presenters here tonight is the idea of civics in our schools and teaching our children as young as possible about the importance of voting, about government responsibilities and so on. I think one thing I heard this afternoon from the high school students was the importance of mock elections in the schools. Starting right at Primary or if there's an election, municipal or federal or provincial, so that the pattern is set when children are used to voting. The teacher would have to lead the discussion and tell them about the candidates and the importance of voting but it would establish a pattern that they would start, you know, the federal election when they happen to be in Primary, that's great, and then in Grade 3 or Grade 7 . . .
MR. ED MCNEIL: Great.
MR. PARKER: . . . and then by the time they get to 18 years old, they're ready to vote, they know what to do and what a ballot looks like, and to me that was a great idea. I guess it's just a suggestion but you can comment if you wish.
MR. ED MCNEIL: Just like in a credit when you get in high school, or in college too, maybe it's - I don't know, I'm not up on my . . .
MR. PARKER: Just establishing a pattern, they know how and what to do and how to do it, and the 18-year olds that they know . . .
MR. ED MCNEIL: Start it right from the seed and let it grow up.
MR. PARKER: Absolutely.
MR. ED MCNEIL: Like Dave was saying, that girl was intimidated when she was 18, that's why. She didn't know the process, she thought that she was, you know, going through - anything from you? (Laughter)
MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll let Mr. Dunn ask a question first.
MR. ED MCNEIL: Oh, go ahead. I'll tell you the truth but you might not like it.
MR. DUNN: It's not a question, it's a comment with regard to civics courses in school. I don't think you would find it's the type of course you could make compulsory or mandatory because that, in itself, may turn off a lot of students. They have a lot of
[Page 31]
compulsory courses that they have to take before they can finish their curriculum and get their diploma.
What I would like to see from a very early age in school, right up to Grade 12, is a unit on civics every single year, and as the student gets older and the courses get a little more complicated, then they learn a little more about the political agenda and the world around them as far as the responsibility of people living in a society.
I think if they started civics at a young age and continued consistently with a half-decent unit in one of their courses each and every year, that may make somewhat of an impact, as opposed to having had one course and forcing people to take that particular course. I think if you carried it over a longer a period of time then that would be more effective. So it's more of a comment that I was making.
[8:45 p.m.]
MR. ED MCNEIL: That's not as bad as mandatory voting.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. McNeil, I know you've been involved in a number of campaigns and I'm curious, as far as the voting day itself - in the past, I think all political Parties had a lot of volunteers who were calling people, driving them out, chasing them to get them out to vote. I think it's safe to say that every Party has seen a decline in the amount of those volunteers and in the amount of headquarters that are actively following people in each and every poll. I'm curious, do you see that decline in the amount of people involved in the Party system on election day? Is that part of the low voter turnout that we're seeing or was that just happening anyway, or do you see the loss of the amount of people calling election day and chasing people down - is that having a role, as well, in the fact that left to their own devices a lot of people aren't voting who once upon a time, if they got the call election day . . .
MR. ED MCNEIL: Well, as I said before, it's a sign of the times. We're living in a different society since the 1950s and people are busy today. I guess if you paid people, you know, that wouldn't be volunteering, I know, but it doesn't hurt.
I don't see anything wrong with urging people to get out and vote and calling them up, that's part of politics. I think what we're forgetting here, you should have fun with politics. I was a fundraiser for a certain Party and the first thing I would do was call up the opposite Party and ask for a donation. He just laughed, but we had some fun with it, you know what I mean? Because at the end of the day we were still friends. You're talking about low voter turnout, or that's the theme of this thing, but I don't see any difference between getting people, you know, to volunteer to go out and get them, I think that's a lot of fun, if that's what your question was.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. McNeil, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Mr. Gosse.
MR. GORDON GOSSE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm just wondering, we're talking here about this stuff and voter fatigue - we've had five federal elections since 1997 and four provincial elections since 1998. I'm wondering, in your opinion, would that be a part of the low voter turnout, having nine elections in 11 years?
MR. ED MCNEIL: It could be, yes, I would say that has a lot to do with it, but what I would like to know is how is Nova Scotia's voter turnout compared to other provinces? Does anybody know? Are we average? Is this all across Canada?
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: It's higher.
MR. ED MCNEIL: It's higher. And is Cape Breton higher than Halifax?
MR. GOSSE: Yes, it usually is.
MR. ED MCNEIL: You people are more busy in Halifax than us. (Interruptions) No, that's what I'm saying - the fast society, the hustle and bustle. You're busy counting Cape Breton's money. (Laughter)
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm not sure if I should rule that out of order. (Laughter) But in a free democratic society, you are free to speak.
MR. ED MCNEIL: Remember that it was Halifax that joined Cape Breton. Seriously though, it's voter fatigue. If we don't learn to change with the times, we're going to be - you know, the political system has to change with the times too. And if it's Internet, I'm all for this Internet voting. What's wrong with it? People will be intimidated, in their 60's like me, but the generation coming up love it - it's the thing to do. Better than knocking on every door. I wouldn't knock on 4,000 doors if they gave me $10 a door.1 think it's for the birds.
MR. GOSSE: Thank you. I just thought that what I've been hearing from people is that we've spent millions of dollars in the last number of years on elections. This one alone is close to $400 million, people are telling me, on the doorsteps of where I come from, that money could be better spent on other things in our society today. So I'm just wondering about your opinion on fixed election dates provincially and municipally - well, municipally has fixed election dates. Do you think provincially and federally we should look at fixed election dates?
MR. ED MCNEIL: Well, that depends on the economy, how things are going. But yes, I think that would be a good idea - unless you're Stephen Harper. (Laughter)
[Page 33]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. McNeil. On behalf of the committee, I want to make . . .
MR. ELDON MACDONALD: Can I make one comment? It's just a comment to what the gentleman just said when you raised the issue of voter fatigue. I understand your comment but you can't have voter fatigue if you've never voted.
MR ED MCNEIL: You're right, true.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. MacDonald, for that. On behalf of the entire committee, I want to thank everyone for joining us this evening. I certainly want to thank Minister Clarke for joining us in his busy schedule, and Mr. Gosse as well for coming down the road to see us. We actually are in your beautiful riding so thank you, Mr. Gosse, for allowing us the pleasure of spending the day in your riding.
So again, to all of our staff joining us, my sincere thanks and we look forward to tomorrow - we are off to Antigonish. Prior to Antigonish we are going to hold our youth focus group between 12:00 noon and 1:30 p.m. at the NSCC Strait Campus in Port Hawkesbury. Then we'll be heading off to Antigonish at St. Andrews Community Centre, from 3:15 p.m. to 4:30 p.m, then at 7:00 p.m. we will have our public hearing again at the St. Andrews Community Centre in Antigonish. From there we're off to cover both Pictou and Truro. Then, on the next night, we are over in Amherst, if I'm not mistaken - yes. Then the week after, we'll continue.
So again, thank you for coming tonight. We certainly appreciate your feedback and again, don't forget to sign our sheet if you wish to receive a copy of the Hansard for this meeting and if you wish to get a copy of our final report, once that is tabled in the House of Assembly. Your comments are appreciated and your attendance is certainly appreciated by this committee. Merci.
[The committee adjourned at 8:52 p.m.]
