HANSARD
NOVA SCOTIA HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO REVIEW
THE ESTIMATES OF
THE CHIEF ELECTORAL OFFICER
AND THE AUDITOR GENERAL
Wednesday, January 29, 2025
Committee Room
Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO REVIEW
THE ESTIMATES OF
THE CHIEF ELECTORAL OFFICER
AND THE AUDITOR GENERAL
Hon. Danielle Barkhouse (Chair)
John White (Vice-Chair)
Hon. Brendan Maguire
Hon. Becky Druhan
Marco MacLeod
Lisa Lachance
Susan Leblanc
Hon. Iain Rankin
James Charlton, Chief Clerk of the House of Assembly
[Hon. Iain Rankin was replaced by Hon. Derek Mombourquette.]
In Attendance:
Gordon Hebb
Chief Legislative Counsel
David Hastings
Assistant Clerk of the House of Assembly
WITNESSES
Elections Nova Scotia
Dorothy Rice
Chief Electoral Officer
Li Chao
Chief Financial Officer
Office of the Auditor General
Kim Adair
Auditor General
HALIFAX, WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 29, 2025
SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO REVIEW
THE ESTIMATES OF THE CHIEF ELECTORAL OFFICER
AND THE AUDITOR GENERAL
4:00 P.M.
CHAIR
Danielle Barkhouse
VICE CHAIR
John White
THE CHAIR: Order. I call this meeting of the Special Committee to Review the Estimates of the Chief Electoral Officer and the Auditor General to order. By way of background, Section 16 of the Auditor General Act requires the Auditor General to present annually to a committee of the House of Assembly, designated for that purpose by the House, estimates of the sums of money that will be required by the Auditor General to conduct the activities required under that Act and any other enactment or authority, together with any estimated recoveries. Section 19 of the Elections Act provides for the same in relation to the Chief Electoral Officer.
The Special Committee was established under Resolution No. 3211 of the 61st General Assembly, 3rd Session, and Resolution No. 2559 of the 61st General Assembly, 4th Session, as the committee so designated. Those resolutions provide that the Special Committee is composed of the members appointed from time to time to the House of Assembly Management Commission and is chaired by the Chair of the Management Commission. This Special Committee has the power to alter the Estimates being considered by it and, upon completing its review, shall recommend the Estimates - as altered, if at all - to the Treasury and Policy Board for inclusion in the Government’s Estimates.
Let’s begin by having the members of the Special Committee introduce themselves. I will start and then we will move clockwise around the table after me. My name is Danielle Barkhouse, Speaker of the House, MLA for Chester-St. Margaret’s, and Chair of the Special Committee.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
THE CHAIR: I note that under Section 16 of the Auditor General Act and Section 19 of the Elections Act, the Chair of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts is also entitled to attend this committee meeting. Currently, the Chair of Public Accounts is Susan Leblanc, who is already present in her capacity as a member of the Special Committee.
I would also like to acknowledge the presence of James Charlton, Chief Clerk of the House, and Gordon Hebb, Chief Legislative Counsel.
I now invite the Chief Electoral Officer to present her Estimates for 2025-26. I ask that you begin by introducing yourself and any other staff from Elections Nova Scotia who are accompanying you before giving your remarks.
DOROTHY RICE: My name is Dorothy Rice. I am the Chief Electoral Officer here in Nova Scotia. Having just gone through the elections, you may have seen me before.
This is Li Chao, our Chief Financial Officer, who will be actually presenting the opening remarks regarding the budget.
THE CHAIR: Please present.
LI CHAO: Good afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity to present our 2025-26 budget request. Elections Nova Scotia is an independent, non-partisan agency that reports to the members of the House of Assembly through the Speaker. Our mission to deliver provincial elections impartially and professionally is drawn from the Elections Act. My presentation of our Budget Estimates to you provides transparency and accountability to the members of the Assembly.
As outlined in our budget submission, an additional $2.8 million is required for 2025-26 to continue to fulfill our mandate. This amount includes $1.5 million to purchase new IT equipment in preparation for the next election as approximately 1,100 pieces of IT equipment used in the last three general elections have reached the end of their life cycles and must be replaced to ensure security and interconnectivity; $839,000 to wrap up the 42nd provincial general election and measure activities planned for the upcoming fiscal year, including compliance reviews of candidates’ financial reports and post-event debriefs, as well as decommissioning of tech equipment; $260,000 for one potential by-election, based on historical occurrence and the cost; $100,000 for outreach strategy to support our inclusion, diversity, equity, and accessibility programming; and lastly, $54,000 for extralegal counsel.
I respectfully request that you accept our budget as presented and recommend it without alteration to the Treasury and Policy Board. I commit to sending a report to members of this committee summarizing any changes made once our final 2025-26 budget is approved by the Treasury and Policy Board. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today, and I’m happy to answer any questions you may have.
THE CHAIR: Are there any questions? The honourable member for Dartmouth North.
SUSAN LEBLANC: Just a quick question. I’m having a hard time with my computer today, so I can’t correctly see what you’ve sent. You said that you’re asking for an additional $2.8 million. Can you just remind us: Last year, Elections Nova Scotia asked for an increase and the committee approved, but then it wasn’t in the budget. Is this a similar ask to last year? Can you refresh our memory?
THE CHAIR: Ms. Chao.
LI CHAO: It’s not similar to last year’s. Last year, we primarily asked for election readiness costs, and also funding for the tech on election day for digital strike-off. This year’s ask pivoted, since we already had the election, so we are asking for additional funding to purchase new IT equipment for the next coming election and also funding to wrap up the 42nd general election that happened last November.
THE CHAIR: Are there any other questions? The honourable member for Sydney-Membertou.
HON. DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Just a question around the technology piece. You said that it’s reached its end of life. Did you have any issues during the election with the current equipment that you have? Is that why you’re making a request now? Is it an expansion of what you already have, or are you saying that the equipment that you have now is going to be obsolete for the next election?
THE CHAIR: Ms. Chao.
LI CHAO: No, we didn’t have any issues with tech equipment for the past general election. Our tech equipment is used in rotation, so certain life cycles - some of them are 10 years, some of them are eight, some of them are five. This is just the refresh. We have to make sure we have new equipment, because they will be obsolete by the time the next election comes.
THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Halifax Citadel-Sable Island.
LISA LACHANCE: You mentioned your funding for inclusion programming and that sort of thing. Certainly, during the course of the past election, I certainly felt that seniors, students, and trans folks who have changed their name faced exclusion from certain aspects and certain ways of being able to vote. I’m just wondering what your plans are with the inclusion funding that you’re asking for.
THE CHAIR: Ms. Rice.
DOROTHY RICE: We have had a committee based on our strategy to address inclusion issues and diversity issues, and we had struck that committee leading up to this general election. We had a lot of work planned to roll out for the July date. Unfortunately, we weren’t able to pull that to full fruition. We were fortunate; we did have three special polls that were set up during the November election: one at CNIB; one at Membertou; and one at Dalhousie University. Anyhow, we do have plans to expand that activity, and we have members from communities across the province who are contributing to that work that we’re doing within our organization. Next time, we’ll probably have a lot more full rollout for that area of need for our voters.
THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.
HON. BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I had two questions, one about which technology is being replaced for the $2.8 million. You say we’re replacing technology and it only has an eight- to 10-year life span. What technology is that?
Secondly, you were talking about the rollout for the inclusion, which is excellent, and adding more polls. But will any of this money actually go into polls in communities like my community, for example, where entire parts of the community were missing polls? Herring Cove, Sambro - there was no polling station in those communities. You talk about expanding. How much of that is actually going toward - I don’t mean the inclusion amount, I mean the $2.8 million - to make sure that we are able to set up these polls in communities during elections?
THE CHAIR: Ms. Rice.
DOROTHY RICE: I appreciate very much your question. Our intent is to always have polls set up in the communities where we have historically established polls and in new communities if the need exists.
After each general election, we have a lot of debrief sessions with the parties and with different people within our communities, returning officers. This area, if it has been brought to light for us, will be on our action plan for the next time.
LI CHAO: So we are replacing - $1.5 million for replacing laptops, which is a life cycle of five years, and laser printers we use for the election, which is a life cycle of 10 years. We’re also replacing the Turbo Hubs we have to use for the internet connection. We must replace them because the current ones we use are no longer permitted to be used in Canada.
BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Just a follow up to that . . .
THE CHAIR: Order. I usually do do follow-ups. As long as everybody doesn’t mind, I will continue with that. There didn’t seem to be any earlier.
The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.
BRENDAN MAGUIRE: So who sets the standards on the laptops and laser printers? I’ve had a laser printer in my office now for 12 years, and I’ve had a laptop in my office for 12 years and the computer in my office for 10 years. Why are the laptops - why do they have to be replaced every five years, and why do laser printers have to be replaced every 10 years?
DOROTHY RICE: I’ll respond to that question. The computers that we are using, that we have used for the last general election, have been used for three elections, so they’ve been used well in excess of the five-year lifespan for that equipment. That is why we’re wanting to replace that at this time.
THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Halifax Citadel-Sable Island.
LISA LACHANCE: I’m trying to recall - there was a pilot for online voting, right - but not like true online voting - in Nova Scotia, was there not? For perhaps retired or folks in the forces and that sort of thing? I’m just wondering - there was an increased use of the iPad voting and that sort of stuff, but people, especially in Halifax, where they had just voted online, really want to know when they can vote online. I’m wondering: Where is that in the planning?
THE CHAIR: Ms. Rice.
DOROTHY RICE: We did have a plan to roll out internet voting for the military members who are stationed outside of Nova Scotia. With the timing of the election, had it taken place in July, we might have had a better chance to do that, but we had to abandon that plan. We went back to the mail-in ballots for that group.
We’ve had a lot of requests come in for internet voting through the candidates, because that’s the feedback we’re getting on the street. That is not currently in our plan for legislation. We’re trying to introduce internet voting in a very measured and conservative manner, so that’s where that has come from.
THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Sydney-Membertou.
HON. DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: In regards to your ask for the increase in technology, a big part of the issue on election day was that the site actually crashed when people went looking for where to vote. Are you guys looking at that as well in your ask, so that we don’t run into that situation again?
THE CHAIR: Ms. Rice.
DOROTHY RICE: Yes, the internet did go down for an hour early in the day. It was rectified very quickly. We did work very quickly with ICTS to solve that problem in the field, so we were back up and running by 9:30 in the morning. We have recognized that that has been a gap in our system. We had added a lot of capacity to the internet before election day, but it wasn’t sufficient. We are working with ICTS on that, and we will certainly mitigate that for the next time.
[4:15 p.m.]
DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I appreciate that answer. It was a big concern for folks. Without the voter information cards, as everyone around the table knows, it became very problematic, because people didn’t know where they were going.
Are you looking at that in your technology review? Are you looking at other avenues where you can get that information? I’ve been through five elections, and I never realized how important those voter information cards that they’re getting in the mail are for people, which I would never suggest to get rid of. Are you looking at different avenues through your ask of the Treasury Board to help promote even more where people actually have to go and vote?
DOROTHY RICE: Is your question regarding people voting with technology or people having access to find out where to vote through the technology?
DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: That’s my question. Sorry, I danced around it a little bit. The big issue was that voter information cards weren’t available, people didn’t know where to vote, the website crashed for an hour, and people were scrambling to try to find where to vote. In your technology review, are you looking at where you can provide more information for people to vote?
DOROTHY RICE: Thanks very much for that clarification.
Yes, of course, we are reviewing what options are available to increase the availability of the technology to find out where people can vote and other related information for the voters. Across Canada we’ve had issues with misinformation and disinformation, and across Canada, all of the CEOs are addressing this. We’re learning from each other from how they’re addressing these problems.
THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.
HON. BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Just to jump on the Mombo train there with the voter ID cards, obviously it was a big issue during the election. The reason given, and rightfully so, is that there was a potential strike. There ended up being some work action done.
What I’m trying to understand is - and I guess we’re a little bit off-topic here, but there were cards sent out to every Nova Scotian on how to vote after the writ was dropped and after the polls were in place. If you sent out cards on how to vote, why weren’t the cards where to vote sent out?
THE CHAIR: Ms. Rice.
DOROTHY RICE: We are little bit off-topic for the budget exercise. I think we’re into a debrief process here. Nonetheless, the answer is that we had those cards prepared and ready to go, so as soon as the writ was issued, we were able to send them out.
Then we had to find all of our polling locations, which takes several days into the election. By the time we had signed leases with all of the community halls and the churches and wherever else we vote - by the time we had all of those in place, the strike was imminent. That was why. There’s a difference in the timing of when different materials are sent out.
THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Glace Bay-Dominion.
JOHN WHITE: Just because we’re talking about online technology, you made me think about the military voting online. Can you give us any information on that? Is that reflected in this ask that you’re doing with the increase of technology? Is that to do with military voting online? Is there any part of that aspect of it?
THE CHAIR: Ms. Rice.
DOROTHY RICE: The technology ask isn’t specifically related to the military voters. The ask is for the technology to be refreshed because it has been through three elections already. By the time we got to the next general election, perhaps in four years or so, we would expect that technology will be very old by then.
THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Dartmouth North.
SUSAN LEBLANC: I just want to quickly, before I say what I think about the ask that’s in front of us, address a bit of an elephant in the room, which is that we had a snap election. I, for one, am not surprised that everything didn’t go perfectly with Elections Nova Scotia and the election. When last we met here with the staff from Elections Nova Scotia, we were working on the premise of a fixed election date, which I will remind the room was set for July of 2025. We were all under that assumption, and I think that Elections Nova Scotia - of course there are always issues and there are always improvements - in fact, I would say did the best they could under the circumstances.
Given that, what I’d like to say is thinking about the things that can go wrong, and thinking about how important elections are, I would hate to know that the computer system and the computer equipment that we’d be using in the next election, whether it be three or four years or however long, would be so old that it could possibly crash. I think this is a very important ask, and I think we should support it.
THE CHAIR: Thank you for bringing it back to the budget. I just want to remind all the members that we are here to talk today about the budget, and I’d like to keep it on topic. I recognize . . . nobody. I recognize a rhetorical question from the honourable member for Dartmouth North.
SUSAN LEBLANC: It wasn’t a rhetorical question. It was a statement.
THE CHAIR: Okay. Are there any other questions? Would somebody care to move this special committee approve the estimates of the Chief Electoral - so moved by MLA Maguire.
All those in favour? Contrary minded? Thank you.
The motion is carried. (Interruption)
I now invite the Auditor General to present her estimates for 2025-26. I ask that you begin by introducing yourself - you have no staff - before giving your remarks. The Auditor General.
KIM ADAIR: Good afternoon, everyone. Kim Adair, Auditor General. My budget ask this year is relatively straightforward. I’m going to speak mainly from Page 2 of the document that’s been shared with you. Essentially, what we’re asking for is what I would call a status quo budget. It’s $6.7 million for a staff of 43 people, FTEs. That number ties in with the budget target that we have been given by the Department of Finance and Treasury Board.
I would note that over the past few years, we have been given some additional funding for the health audit function. We’re now at roughly $1.1 million in additional funding that came in gradually over three years, and six FTEs. We have just recently been staffed up for all six of those positions, and we nicely have some momentum in that function and are doing a number of health audits.
Most of our budget is salaries, about 80 per cent. The increase that you see year over year is essentially the economic increase that comes from Finance centrally. During the year, we had a reclassification of some of our audit managers and audit principals, so that’s what’s driving that roughly half-a-million increase year over year. It’s pretty straightforward, but I’d be happy to answer any questions.
THE CHAIR: Are there any questions? I see none. Would someone care to move that the special - the honourable member for Glace Bay-Dominion. Are you moving?
JOHN WHITE: I’m moving. Give me a second here, please. (Interruption)
THE CHAIR: All those in favour? Contrary minded? Thank you.
The motion is carried.
That completes the agenda for the Special Committee meeting. I remind the members of this committee, all of whom are also members of the House of Assembly Management Commission, that a meeting of the Management Commission will occur after a brief pause. Please remain in your seats, as we intend to get under way very shortly. With that, the Special Committee now stands adjourned.
[The committee adjourned at 4:25 p.m.]
