Assemblée Législative de la Nouvelle-Écosse

Les travaux de la Chambre ont repris le
21 septembre 2017


Fifty-sixth General Assembly

Second Session

12:00 P.M.


Hon. Paul MacEwan


Mr. Gerald O’Malley

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. We will commence this afternoon’s proceedings at this time. The first
item on the agenda is the daily routine.








MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition.


MR. TERENCE DONAHOE: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the
adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas the gruesome murder of Kimber Leane Lucas and her unborn child was a terrifying
reminder of the peril faced by those forced into a life on the streets; and



Whereas the recent trial of the accused in the murder of 17 year old Kelly Wilneff brought forward
the grisly details of senseless actions which saw her short life end; and

Whereas these and many other incidents in just the past year are visible reminders of the desperate
and dangerous life on the streets endured by so many of our province’s youth;

Therefore be it resolved that the Minister of Justice, especially as the metro region experiences the
uncertainty of the plan for a regional merger, ensure that the brutal actions of late provide an impetus for
continued and enhanced support for the work of the prostitution task force.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask for waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver of notice.

Is it agreed that there be waiver of notice?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The honourable member for Halifax Fairview.


MS. ALEXA MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move
the adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas the murder of Kimber Leane Lucas was the latest, brutal reminder of the violence against
women which plagues our society; and

Whereas Kimber Leane Lucas was robbed of the opportunity to overcome the problems she faced and
make a good life for herself and her child; and

Whereas we cannot rest while the women are not safe, either on the streets or in their homes, from
the possibility of violence, as the commemoration of December 6th reminds us;

Therefore be it resolved that this House observe a minute of silence in memory of Kimber Leane
Lucas, in condolence for her loved ones, and in affirmation of the importance of the struggle to end violence
against women during the upcoming week of remembrance and reflection and throughout the year.

Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might ask for waiver of notice.

MR. SPEAKER: There has been a request for waiver of notice which requires unanimous consent.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

We will observe one minute of silence.

[One minute of silence was observed.]

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition.


MR. TERENCE DONAHOE: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the
adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas in a recent national quarterly opinion survey conducted by Decima Research, the current
Liberal Administration in Nova Scotia received the lowest performance assessment of any government in
Canada, lower than the performance assessment of the previous administration received in the fall of 1990;

Whereas the public initially attributed government mistakes to inexperience, but this has been
replaced with a growing sense of the Liberal Administration’s incompetence; and

Whereas the Premier and his inner Cabinet have refused participation from many Nova Scotians
including government employees, vulnerable citizens, health providers, educators, students, the private sector
and politicians of all political Parties and levels of government;

Therefore be it resolved that the Premier recognize that his government will continue to sustain
continued low performance assessments until it commits to work with, rather than against, Nova Scotians.

MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.

The honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party.


MR. JOHN HOLM: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption
of the following resolution:

Whereas the Minister of the Environment announced strict guidelines for the Upper Sackville landfill
as the condition for any expansion, extension and continued operation; and

Whereas those guidelines would divert construction waste, launch composting and substantially
increase the reduction, reuse and recycling of other waste resources; and

Whereas up-to-date information now indicates that since the minister’s guidelines were announced,
the diversion, reduction, reuse and recycling of metro’s waste resources has declined;

Therefore be it resolved that this House urges the Minister of the Environment to put his words into
action and stop the massive growth in the dumping of waste at the Sackville landfill, which only increases
the severe problems endured by that long-suffering community.

MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.

The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.


MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the
adoption of the following resolution:

Whereas Nova Scotians were told that Donald Cameron’s amalgamation and merger of government
departments would help solve the deficit problem; and

Whereas Tory amalgamation was used to justify long-term, high cost, untendered contract for
additional Natural Resources Department offices at Founders Square, adding $1 million to the cost of
government despite a decrease in square feet rented; and

Whereas the Liberals have now also used reorganization to justify yet another contract for still more
Natural Resources offices at Founders Square;

Therefore be it resolved that this government should honour its claim to be customer oriented by
locating the mapping and other customer service operations of the Natural Resources Department in the
lowest cost, widely accessible location identified by public tender.

MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.

The honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party.


MR. JOHN HOLM: Mr. Speaker, I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move the adoption
of the following resolution:

Whereas the Premier is scheduled to be in Boston for this year’s annual Christmas tree lighting
ceremony; and

Whereas the Premier may encounter his good friend and predecessor, the Canadian Consul General
in Boston; and

Whereas the Consul General can speak from experience about how unpopular Premiers, who are
imposing regressive policies, making bizarre announcements and disheartening their own supporters, can
explore job opportunities while preparing to abandon ship;

Therefore be it resolved that this House wishes the Premier every success during his visit to Boston
on December 3rd.

MR. SPEAKER: The notice is tabled.

Are there any other notices of motion? If not, that brings us to the end of the daily routine.

The Clerk has conducted a draw for the Adjournment debate at 6:00 p.m. The winner this afternoon
is the honourable member for Halifax Fairview. She has submitted a resolution stating:

Therefore be it resolved that this government finally address the continuing child care crisis.

We will discuss that matter at 6:00 p.m.

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RICHARD MANN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask you to revert to the order of business,
Statements by Ministers.


MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Health.

HON. RONALD STEWART: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in my place to announce that the
Canadian Task Force on the Periodic Health Examination has presented me with a copy of its 1,000 page
Canadian Guide to Clinical Preventive Health Care. This book, published this month, is the first
comprehensive Canadian reference guide on preventive health procedures to be released in 15 years.

It is the culmination of 18 years of work, Mr. Speaker, by the Canadian task force, and it is expected
to serve as an essential guide for doctors and other caregivers in providing comprehensive preventive care.

The work of this task force, Mr. Speaker, has received international attention since its first report
was published in 1979. The mandate was to determine how the periodic health examination could improve
the health of Canadians and to recommend a lifetime program of preventive health care activities.

This book also highlights many conditions for which the evidence for preventability by current means
is inconclusive and, therefore, provides for us an agenda for future research.

Halifax physician, Dr. Richard Goldbloom, is Chairman of the task force and edited the English
edition. The guide was published simultaneously in English and French by Canada Communications Group
in Ottawa. Mr. Speaker, there will be a copy presented to the library for perusal by all members and the
public. I would commend this to each of us and to the public since it has great ramifications for the health care
system, both here and across the country. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Kings West.

MR. GEORGE MOODY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health was kind enough to send this over
prior to the sitting of the House, which is much appreciated. I want to congratulate the task force on this work.
As the minister has indicated, it is an essential guide, not only for doctors, but for other caregivers. It is nice
to know that physicians like Dr. Richard Goldbloom have been involved, Nova Scotians have been leaders.

I do hope that this minister will use this guide more effectively than he has the blueprint. Because
many things we get, Mr. Speaker, are very positive. Here is something that is positive, if only the government
and this minister will use it in the manner in which it is intended to be used.

I want to congratulate members of that task force and Dr. Goldbloom for a job well done.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Halifax Fairview.

MS. ALEXA MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, I, too, want to congratulate the Canadian Task Force
on the Periodic Health Examination on this latest publication. I think all members of this House will know,
regardless of political stripe, how well Dr. Richard Goldbloom has served the health field and all Nova
Scotians over the years. This is one of his many contributions to us as citizens and consumers of health

I, too, look forward to having an opportunity to review that new Canadian Guide to Clinical
Prevention and hope that there will, indeed, be some blueprints contained within it that can help guide us all
as we move forward in health reform to a truly strong focus on prevention as one of the most important
reforms that we could pursue.

[12:15 p.m.]

I think it was Dr. Michael Rachlis the health care reformer, Mr. Speaker, that said if you want to
really figure out whether health reform is taking place and what the nature of the reform is, then you want
to follow the dollars; you want to figure out where the dollars go in the new system and where they are coming
from. So far, many who are concerned about health reform are very concerned that we are dealing mostly with
a cost-cutting exercise rather than meaningful reform.

I think until we see real allocation of dollars to prevention, then it is going to mostly be a catch-phrase and buzz-word to justify cuts in institutional care rather than any meaningful reorientation to truly
preventive focus. So, let’s hope that this newest 1,000 page publication will provide some further guideposts
in a process of true health care reform. Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: We will advance to Orders of the Day. The time now being 12:17 p.m., that means
one hour from now will take us to 1:17 p.m. That will be the duration of Oral Question Period today.



MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition.


MR. TERENCE DONAHOE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Human Resources. I
want to ask the minister a couple of questions about the very confusing state of affairs relative to the recently
announced appointment of Mrs. Janet Byrne-Morrison to the position of Co-ordinator, Human Resource
Development, Department of Human Resources.

I wonder if the Minister of Human Resources would confirm for the House that, in fact, the notice
calling upon people to apply for this position went out indicating that it was a secondment opportunity that
was open to current Nova Scotia Government employees only -and I stress Nova Scotia Government
employees only - and that four applicants from within the provincial government service applied and
interviews were held, and the committee doing the interviews did make a recommendation of one of those four
who were interviewed to the Minister of Human Resources. Could she confirm that for me, please?

HON. ELEANOR NORRIE: Yes, one name that came forward was a recommended name from
another department of government. That is right.

MR. DONAHOE: The minister indicates that the name recommended came from another department
of government. Could I ask her to clarify for the House, please, whether she is saying that the recommended
person was, at the time of the recommendation, an employee of some department other than the Department
of Human Resources and, if that is the case, could she tell us what department that person was working in at
the time of the recommendation?

MRS. NORRIE: If my memory serves me, the employee who applied was a member of the
Department of Municipal Affairs.

MR. DONAHOE: The recommendation then was sent forward to the Deputy Minister of Human
Resources, I presume, as is required by the regulations. I wonder if the Minister of Human Resources could
help us understand what it was that was deficient in the recommendation or in the qualifications of the person
recommended. Because it is my understanding that the person recommended for the secondment position from
within the Nova Scotia Government ranks was recommended having received a rather substantially higher
recommendation level than was the case with the other three, who were also interviewed, so could the minister
help us understand the deficiencies that resulted in her deputy minister concluding that the person
recommended was not appropriate for the position?

MRS. NORRIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the member opposite that there were no
deficiencies determined on the employee who had applied. The employees from other departments, when they
apply for positions to be seconded, the home department must, if you look at the fair hiring policy, must be
in agreement that their employee move across departments and that was why the decision was made that the
person would not be hired within my department.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party.


MR. JOHN HOLM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance responsible for the
Casino Project Team. My question to the minister is quite simply this, what steps has the minister taken to
ensure that the interests of all Nova Scotians and all casino proponents are protected in situations where one
of the proponents and a member of the casino project selection team have common business interests?

HON. BERNARD BOUDREAU: Mr. Speaker, I can’t say what reference the honourable member
makes but I would certainly be interested in hearing it.

MR. HOLM: Mr. Speaker, of course the minister will know that one Gordon Hughes is a member
of the casino project selection team and that Mr. Hughes and his family are the primary owners, if not the total
owners, of the Evangeline consortium of companies. He should also know that one, James Cowan, represents
the Austrian group and that Mr. Cowan is a director on two of the Evangeline Trust companies, the board of
directors. I say to the minister quite simply, how does the minister expect Nova Scotians and other applicants
to have any confidence in the selection process when the door is open for proponents to hire business
associates of those who are on the selection process team?

MR. BOUDREAU: Mr. Speaker, I have some difficulty in that I cannot confirm the information that
the honourable member brings to the House. But even if it were indeed factual, there is no indication that Mr.
Hughes, who is a member of the casino selection committee, is involved in any way with a casino proponent.

MR. HOLM: Mr. Speaker, I will be happy to provide the minister with a list of directors of the
various Evangeline companies. I said that Mr. Hughes is on the project selection team and that Mr. James
Cowan represents one of the groups in the final selection process applying to have the casino license. My
question to the minister is quite simply this, how can the minister ensure that it is not only seemed to be but
there is absolute arm’s length impartiality in this process, how can anybody expect to have any confidence
when the members are business associates?

MR. BOUDREAU: Mr. Speaker, very simple, we asked each member of the Casino Project
Committee, before making the appointment, whether or not they were at that time involved with any casino
proponent and the answer was no. The second question was are you willing to forego any involvement with
a casino proposal and the answer was yes. On that basis, they were appointed and they remain at arm’s length
from the government in this independent process.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Kings West.


MR. GEORGE MOODY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. Back in June 1994,
the minister’s department advertised for a position called an advisor on physician affairs and I think it was
advertised at $115,000. Would the minister tell the House whether that position has been filled?

HON. RONALD STEWART: Yes, the contract is under review and it should be completed within
the next several weeks in terms of that particular position.

MR. MOODY: Mr. Speaker, I am assuming by the minister’s answer that when he says a contract
is being completed, would the minister indicate, was this job advertised as a contract position and were there
interviews held? I guess that is what I was trying to find out.

DR. STEWART: Yes, it was advertised as such and there were expressions of interest from several
physicians because it had to be a physician. The sine qua non, the absolute requirement was that it be a full-time advisory position and the problem that we faced, of course, that any physician faced, was to divest him
or herself of his or her practice and to make arrangements and that has been very difficult and hence the delay.

MR. MOODY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for the clarification. I wonder if the minister could,
in a final supplementary, indicate to me if this is full time, if that has been decided, and the role that the
individual would play in the department?

DR. STEWART: Yes, it is intended as full time, however, again, with the problem of divesting
practices and so on, it may begin as a part-time advisor. However, it is intended on being full time and given
that we can have a candidate who divests him or herself of his or her practice, then we look forward to full
time. Now the mandate would be, because of the major changes in structure and the reform specific to health
care reform in this province, we felt it required that the physician element of that reform be handled and that
we have some advice and someone to concentrate on this within the department at the ministerial level.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Kings West on a new question.


MR. GEORGE MOODY: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Health if he could tell me
approximately how many candidates would have applied for this position, if he could recall? Were there

HON. RONALD STEWART: As I recall, and I am trying my best to be accurate here, we had
expressions of interest from three or four people but when they learned that it was likely full time and that we
are attempting to get full time, there were withdrawals of two or three from that list.

MR. MOODY: Mr. Speaker, I assume from the Minister of Health, then, there were not many people
who really ended up being interviewed for the position because nobody was interested because it was more
full time. Will the minister indicate to us today if one of those candidates is Dr. Dan Reid of Pictou?

DR. STEWART: Yes, that is correct, Mr. Speaker.

MR. MOODY: Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary is that I understand Dr. Reid has told his
patients that he is closing his practice. Is it an actual fact that Dr. Dan Reid is the successful candidate for this

DR. STEWART: Again, because of the difficulty of arranging practices, I cannot confirm that here
today except to say that the discussions are fruitful and we expect that given that that can be arranged and so
on, then we would proceed along those lines, yes.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Kings North.


MR. GEORGE ARCHIBALD: Mr. Speaker, through you to the Minister of Health, I wish to ask him
a question. Last week I asked the minister for his assistance in addressing the problems at the Valley Regional
Hospital that are being caused by the additional case loads from patients who previously went to the Eastern
Kings Memorial Hospital, compounded with the serious budget cuts that the Valley Regional Hospital is
experiencing. This weekend, for instance, the intensive care unit, where there are six beds, had to cope with
eight patients. Emergency, with 15 beds, had to make arrangements to handle 22 emergency patients instead
of 15. The staff is overworked, nurses and technical assistants are being called in to work on their days off
and being paid overtime. The problem is going to worsen in March when the Western Kings Memorial
Hospital closes. My question to the minister is, what does he intend to do about this problem and where is this

HON. RONALD STEWART: Mr. Speaker, as I have reminded the honourable gentleman opposite,
we have been in discussion for some time with Valley Medical Centre in terms of its needs. We have increased
budgetary allotments in certain areas to provide for any kind of increase in utilization and I have not had
representations from that facility. Reiterating the comments particularly of the last day of the honourable
gentleman opposite, I might say that the usage of hospital beds and hospital resources fluctuates on a daily
basis and I would like to know if the honourable gentleman opposite has some statistics for perhaps mid-week
of last week?

MR. ARCHIBALD: Mr. Speaker, last week when I asked the minister a very similar question, the
minister, if I may quote him, totally misled me and the House, perhaps by error, when he said, “. . . this
humble Minister of Health is at a loss to explain, first of all, why exactly one and one-half hours ago the
administrator of the Valley Regional Hospital did not mention these statistics when I met and spoke with

[12:30 p.m.]

Well, Mr. Speaker, I and I am sure most members of the House, assumed that they had a meeting.
Well they did, in a way, they went through the doorway and the minister said good morning and the
administrator said good morning. There was no meeting that took place.

The minister has had an opportunity to explain himself more clearly and indicate an interest in
Valley Regional Hospital, instead of trying to mislead me and the rest of the House, indicating that he had
a meeting with him, in which case he didn’t have a meeting. That is not at all fair, to be misleading people
that way.

MR. SPEAKER: I cannot recognize the honourable member unless he asks a question now.

MR. ARCHIBALD: The question is, when will the Minister of Health do his obligation to the people
and the Valley Regional Hospital and come up with a plan and a system in the dire straits they are in at the
present time?

DR. STEWART: Mr. Speaker, it is outrageous in the extreme to suggest that that medical centre,
which is a fine medical centre and which has resources, is in dire straits. That particular institution has a fully
competent staff on-site, which will distribute and utilize its resources wisely and has for some years.

This Minister of Health and this Ministry of Health will not be dictating on a daily basis to any
facility as to how to operate. We do not operate hospitals. If that particular facility has particular needs, they
will be represented through their board and through their executive director and we would welcome those

MR. ARCHIBALD: Valley Regional Hospital has direct needs at the present time; they need
additional funds so they can hire the staff to carry on the responsibilities of a hospital. I am not criticizing that
hospital because the people are working so diligently, under great stress. I visited that hospital myself . . .

MR. SPEAKER: This is not a final supplementary question.

MR. ARCHIBALD: . . . and, Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister, will the minister visit the
hospital, so he will start to understand the difficulty of working under adverse conditions, when you have more
patients than you have staff to look after them?

DR. STEWART: Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman opposite is suggesting that I usurp the
power of the board and the CEO of that hospital and this minister is not going to do that.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.




MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry but I got caught up in that exchange and didn’t
get to my feet as quickly as I should have. I would like to direct my question through you to the Minister of
Finance. In the Budget Address with respect to the wage reduction, the statement the minister delivered said
as follows: “This wage reduction will not affect anyone who earns $25,000 or less. Nor will anyone’s salary
be taken below that threshold as a result of this measure.”.

Mr. Speaker, we now know that, in fact, as a result of communications from the Administrator and
Chief Executive Officer of the Public Sector Compensation Restraint Board, that, in fact, part-time workers
who are working regular hours and also part-time workers who are working irregular hours, some of them
working a couple of hours a week, maybe a few hours a month, are having their wages or salaries rolled back
by 3 per cent.

I guess my very simple question to the minister is, why is he allowing this to happen, in complete
contravention of the promises he made to this House and to Nova Scotians?

HON. BERNARD BOUDREAU: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to help the member with
his understanding of the program. The 3 per cent reduction came in the wage rate in a classification. So, in
fact, somebody who is employed on a casual basis, who came in for a day, worked only one day a year, to use
the extreme situation, and earned at that wage rate, would have their amount reduced.

Now they would not have made $25,000 because they would have worked only one day but they came
in on a casual basis and because, in fact, the legislation reduces the rate by 3 per cent, they are impacted.
Somebody who is regularly scheduled, as an employee of the province and in their regular schedule, makes
less than the amount which was exempted under the legislation, $25,000, is not impacted.

MR. CHISHOLM: Obviously, the Minister of Finance when he made the commitment to this House
and to Nova Scotians, that anybody earning less than $25,000 a year would not be impacted by this wage
reduction, was misleading us. He was trying to suggest to us that something that was contained in the Act in
fact was not the case. I would like to ask this minister to explain to me and all Nova Scotians who took him
at his word, why he can get up in this House and say that now in fact, the legislation does not provide for that.

MR. BOUDREAU: The legislation specifically provides for an exemption at that level for regular
employees. If you bring somebody in on a casual basis they are paid under the rate. Casual by its very nature
means they could be employed one day, they could be employed 10 days, they could be employed for whatever
amount. In the extreme case in one day when a casual comes in he is governed by that reduced rate. In fact,
regular employees, scheduled employees are given the exemption of $25,000.

MR. CHISHOLM: I just want to repeat what I read first off - this wage reduction from the Budget
Address will not affect anyone who earns less than $25,000 a year. This minister and his government are
penalizing poor people in the Province of Nova Scotia and I would like to ask him to explain himself. Why
does he think that it is appropriate for his legislation to penalize the poorest of the poor, those people that are
only able to work a few hours a week?

MR. BOUDREAU: People who are regularly scheduled employees whether they work full time or
not are covered by that exemption. What is not covered is some casual employee who may be called in for one
day. The reason, if I may be allowed to give it is because they might indeed be working next to an individual
who works at that job, the very same job, doing the very same duties who works on a full-time basis and does
have the rate reduced and this person would not simply because they came in one day and were not called

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition.




MR. TERENCE DONAHOE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and
it relates to the questions which I just put a moment ago to the Minister of Human Resources relative to the
position of Co-ordinator Human Resource Development in the Department of Human Resources. The Minister
of Human Resources has told us here in the House today that the successful candidate or recommended
candidate was one of four people interviewed and that the snag and the reason this didn’t all happen is because
that recommended candidate was an employee of the Department of Municipal Affairs.  The Department of
Municipal Affairs refused to give its approval or authorization to the secondment arrangement. I wonder if
the Minister of Municipal Affairs could enlighten us a little bit today by explaining as best she can the
difficulty that she experienced in the Department of Municipal Affairs which resulted in her or her senior
officials concluding that the secondment of her employee would not be an appropriate course of action?

HON. SANDRA JOLLY: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to get up and answer this question. I feel
very fortunate as the Minister of Municipal Affairs that in our department we have many qualified, very well-known, excellent people. The particular individual that has been referred to was considered, was requested
for this particular appointment but this person is very important within our Department of Municipal Affairs
for a restructuring process that we are looking to go through. The candidate is well aware of that and it has
been discussed with that individual.

MR. DONAHOE: I wonder if the Minister of Human Resources could indicate to me when it was
that she was alerted to the fact that the Department of Municipal Affairs was not agreeing or concurring with
the secondment arrangement?

HON. ELEANOR NORRIE: Mr. Speaker, I don’t think I can recall the time precisely when that was
happening. I know that we spent most of the summer trying to fill that position. So sometime over the summer
as we were going through the secondment, just to give a little background of the position it was a secondment
from the Department of Human Resources to help with a pilot project within another department that left a
vacancy in my department for a short time. We were in the process over the summer to fill that position on
a term position. At that time, it would have been about two years, but it could have been cut short at any time.

I cannot tell the member opposite exactly when I was made aware of the fact that we could not second
from another department.

MR. DONAHOE: I wonder if the Minister of Human Resources could tell me the nature of the
communication, was it written or otherwise, which she or her deputy minister received from Municipal Affairs
advising that Municipal Affairs was not agreeing or concurring to the secondment arrangement?

MRS. NORRIE: If I recall, Mr. Speaker, I do not believe there was any written communication on
that, that I was aware of.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition on a new question.




MR. TERENCE DONAHOE: If I may, to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, could the Minister of
Municipal Affairs indicate to this House whether or not her department communicated in writing to the
Minister of Human Resources or any official in the Department of Human Resources advising that it, the
Department of Municipal Affairs, was not providing its approval or concurrence to the secondment
arrangement we have been discussing?

HON. SANDRA JOLLY: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to take that under advisement. I will have
to check in my department.

MR. DONAHOE: Well, I wonder if I might ask the Minister of Municipal Affairs if she would give
me the undertaking that she would table such communication if, in fact, one exists and, obviously, if none
does, she would return to the House, hopefully tomorrow, and indicate to us that there was no such written
communication, but that if there is a written communication, she would be kind enough to commit today to
table that?

MS. JOLLY: Mr. Speaker, as I said, I will check within the department.

MR. DONAHOE: If I may, Mr. Speaker, back to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, the Nova Scotia
Government Management Manuals have a rather detailed section on secondment and they define secondment
as, “. . . the temporary assignment of an employee from his/her regular position and responsibilities to another
position for a predetermined time period to perform a specified assignment.”.

It goes on to describe the purpose of secondment. “To provide a mechanism for employee
development which enables departments:

- to provide and/or obtain expertise in a timely fashion

- to utilize high potential staff more efficiently . . . “, and perhaps the most important one,

- to provide opportunities for employees to acquire broader managerial, technical and/or professional

I wonder if the Minister of Municipal Affairs can tell me whether or not she is aware of whether
discussions or meetings were held with the person who was the recommended candidate here, the employee
of Municipal Affairs, if there were discussions held with that person, who obviously wanted to have the
secondment, otherwise this person would presumably not have applied, were discussions held with that person
to explain why it was that the Department of Municipal Affairs was not agreeing to the secondment and if
any memo was provided to that employee to outline that decision would the minister be kind enough to
commit today to table that if such a memo exists?

MS. JOLLY: Mr. Speaker, I think I answered that in the very first question that the honourable
member put to me. As I said, we, in the Department of Municipal Affairs have a number of very qualified
individuals and we have people in the department who are putting together a restructuring program in a
couple of areas of the department which we will be coming forward with.

This particular candidate did apply for the job, as many of our people do, to try to get an opportunity
to get additional exposure. There has been discussion with the candidate to identify what we foresee as the
role of that individual within our department.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Kings West.


MR. GEORGE MOODY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. On November 2nd,
in answer to a question that I asked, the minister said that he had seconded a communications consultant, after
being told he needed one quite urgently, if he remembers. He was happy to report that his department had
made great progress in designing reports that she had made. The minister remembers at that time, on
November 2nd, that he would be happy to table those documents. It is now November 29th. I wonder if the
minister would now be prepared to table those documents he promised me on November 2nd?

HON. RONALD STEWART: Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I will find out where the process is to table
the recommendations and I will do so if I said so on November 2nd.

[12:45 p.m.]

MR. MOODY: Mr. Speaker, I know the minister has said on a number of occasions that he would
table documents and I understand that he has made a commitment, yet I haven’t had any documents tabled.
I am wondering if the minister could tell me if some of these materials or this material could be tabled within
the next week? Is that a reasonable amount of time or is that unreasonable?

DR. STEWART: Mr. Speaker, I think that is reasonable, assuming that that is in the process. I have
given an undertaking with an overworked staff to try and keep up with the demands of the honourable
gentlemen opposite and I will continue to do so. I, again, will attempt to do that.

MR. MOODY: Mr. Speaker, last week the Provincial Health Council indicated that this government
was lacking a comprehensive implementation strategy plan for health reform and the council, on behalf of
the people of this province are asking for more information. I would ask the minister if he plans to detail any
more information such as what has been asked for by the Provincial Health Council, on the health reform
package? In other words, this government’s response to the Blueprint Report?

DR. STEWART: Mr. Speaker, certainly this dynamic process which changes and which has a major
effect on the delivery of health care programs, will be as we go along, communicated and communicated to
the public in a way that I hope will please the honourable gentleman opposite.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Halifax Fairview.


MS. ALEXA MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, I too would like to direct my question to the Minister
of Health. It concerns a matter about which I raised a question last week that continues to be of concern to a
good many people, specifically, the lack of a team leader for the trauma team at the Victoria General Hospital
emergency unit. The minister, last week, assured Nova Scotians that patients will receive the exact same
service as they do now, in spite of the fact that there is not now a team leader available, on the basis of the
accreditation standards that exist in accordance with the Trauma Association of Canada, a provision for there
to be a team leader available, 24 hours a day, on 20 minutes notice.

I would ask the minister, has he decided that those accreditation standards and specifications
approved by the Trauma Association, need not apply in the instance of the Victoria General Hospital’s
emergency system?

HON. RONALD STEWART: Mr. Speaker, again I will go into details of the organization of the
trauma teams specific to the Victoria General Hospital. Suffice to say that the trauma team leader is a senior
emergency medicine physician on duty at the time that the trauma case comes in. There is no change in this,
the change has occurred in that the centrally organized trauma team is under discussion, in terms of funding.
The trauma team leader, the nurses, the radiologists and all of those personnel who were in place before, are
in place now.

MS. MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, we are not just here nit-picking over words or titles. The fact of
the matter is that there is no longer a specified team leader, that the doctor on emergency duty may or may
not have any training or any experience in trauma medicine or trauma management. If it is not true, then why
is that clearly what senior hospital personnel are indicating in their public statements and in response to
research questions? Can the minister assure this House that the team leader who is available to serve the
trauma team is someone who, without question, has specialized training in trauma medicine and trauma
management? Secondly, . . .

MR. SPEAKER: No, one is enough.

MS. MCDONOUGH: All right, I will ask the first question and follow up with the second.

DR. STEWART: Mr. Speaker, it is absolutely reprehensible in the extreme that the honourable
member opposite casts aspersion on the training of the emergency physicians and surgeons assigned to the
Victoria General Emergency Department. Let me ask her directly through you, sir, is she is aware that every
physician, every person who cares for patients in the Victoria General Hospital is Royal College certified or
certified in emergency medicine, and if she finds evidence to the contrary, please either tell me and table it
or withdraw what she has said. There is a fully trained team and team leader available as we speak, 24 hours
a day, seven days a week in the Victoria General Hospital, and that is the truth, sir. (Applause)

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Before we recognize the honourable member for the final
supplementary, I would caution that ministerial answers to questions ought to be in the form of a declaratory
sentence and not an interrogatory.

MS. MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, I suppose this is a classic case of a dispute over the facts because
both the Vice President of Health Services at the VGH and the Director of Emergency Services have both
clearly indicated that there is no assurance that the emergency doctor in charge has specialized trauma
training or trauma management skills.

Mr. Speaker, my final question, to try to get a further indication of whether the Minister of Health
knows what is going on with respect to this problem, is to ask the minister, is he falsely assuring people that
there is a dedicated trauma team leader in place or will he tell the public the truth, that this is a role that is
. . .

MR. SPEAKER: Please, these are unparliamentary turns of phrases that I hear.

MS. MCDONOUGH: . . . now being rolled into the role of the emergency doctor on duty?

MR. SPEAKER: The words “falsely” and “will the minister tell the truth” are not my concept of what
parliamentary language ought to be like at all.

DR. STEWART: I will say this, that I have been in communication and have met, since her last
question, in the last week with the medical director of the institution, with those physicians who are in charge.
They have reassured me that nothing has changed, in terms of who cares for the patient when that patient
comes in. The difference is in the organization in the Department of Surgery, orthopaedics and other
specialties, in terms of whether or not they take trauma calls. That is the difference we are speaking of. We
are talking about an organizational change, not a change in clinical management.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Kings North.


MR. GEORGE ARCHIBALD: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance in his capacity
as Minister responsible for the Liquor Control Act, through you, of course, Mr. Speaker, to the minister.

Last week we asked about the identification cameras that were in the Liquor Commission stores. You
were going to find out what happened to them. I was wondering if you could give us a report today as to where
they went?

HON. BERNARD BOUDREAU: Mr. Speaker, I stand humbled before the House. I forgot.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Hants West.


MR. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. As
the minister is well aware, at least I am sure he is well aware, in 1985 there was a moratorium placed on
uranium mining. That was done at the request of an organization known as CAPE, Citizens Action for the
Protection of the Environment I think is what the acronym stands for.

But anyway, in 1985 Judge McCleave did a study of uranium mining, particularly in the area in
Hants County known as Vaughans and decided at that time that there should be a five year moratorium placed
on uranium mining. In 1990 that moratorium was extended for a further five years and I think on January 15,
1995 the moratorium expires.

Mr. Speaker, there is considerable concern in Hants County with regard to that moratorium expiring
and the interests of certain mining groups starting up a mine. Would the minister give his assurance to the
people of Nova Scotia, and particularly the people of Hants County, that the moratorium will be extended?

HON. DONALD DOWNE: Mr. Speaker, in regard to the moratorium, as the member opposite
realizes all too well, the moratorium is in place until 1995, until such time as the government makes a
decision. In fact, if the government does not make a decision in regard to the extension or withdrawal of the
moratorium; in fact, the moratorium will stay in place by mere virtue of the fact that the decision has not been
made. So, at this point in time, the decision has not been made on behalf of my department or on behalf of
the Government of the Province of Nova Scotia in regard to whether or not the moratorium will not be
extended. I want to reassure the constituents of the member opposite that until such a time, in effect that we
have not made a decision, the moratorium is still in place.

MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that answer because I wasn’t aware of that, to be quite
honest. It was my understanding that the moratorium period was simply extended for five years from January
1985, and at the end of that five years the moratorium disappeared; at least that is the way most moratoriums
work. So, with that assurance from the minister then, Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that, indeed, the
status quo will remain.

However, I have a further question for the minister on the same subject. Does he now have a copy
of Phase I, Phase II, Phase III of the inter-departmental report or does he just have Phase I and Phase II or
what is the status of the reports?

MR. DOWNE: Mr. Speaker, there is some confusion in regard to the issue of Phase I and Phase II.
If the member opposite would recall back in 1990, Judge McCleave, in fact the Conservative Government of
Nova Scotia, had asked that it make sure that an interim committee be set up, representatives of the
Department of the Environment, representatives of the Department of Health and the Department of Natural
Resources, to review the whole issue of the moratorium on a scientific basis. That report is now before me and
I am reviewing that report.

In regard to the issue of Phase I and Phase II, Judge McCleave, back in 1985, took a look at Phase
I and Phase II, and Phase III was to do a realization of the impact of uranium mining. Realizing that the
process would need to have a legitimate mine in operation, in fact the Millbrook uranium deposit was, I
understand, not going to go forward, then Judge McCleave had ruled that at that time, back I believe in
January 1985, that Phase II and Phase III would no longer be needed. Subsequent to that, we have done the
internal review as was outlined previously by the inter-departmental committee to review uranium mining.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Pictou West.


MR. DONALD MCINNES: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister for the Economic Renewal
Agency. Recently, the Prime Minister appointed the Canadian Tourism Commission that is expected to makes
its $50 million debut early in the new year. I understand that provincial governments and private industry will
be making contributions of money to this campaign. Can the minister tell the House today and the people of
Nova Scotia, how much Nova Scotia will be contributing to this Canadian Tourism Commission?

HON. ROSS BRAGG: Mr. Speaker, I welcome this question. It gives us an opportunity to explain
what this $50 million is for. The Prime Minister, in his wisdom, appointed Judd Buchanan as a special
advisor to the Prime Minister on tourism-related issues and the promotion of tourism in Canada. Mr.
Buchanan’s first recommendation to the Prime Minister was, in fact, that they needed to fund a body for the
good of all Canadian tourism to work in conjunction with the private sector and with the provinces to promote
tourism world-wide.

We have been working in conjunction with the new commission, which has been up and running for
about a year now, the Canadian Tourism Authority - but it has been without money for some time - identifying
areas where we need to spend money, potential new markets and so on. We will be participating in this fund
on behalf of and with the other Atlantic Provinces under a cooperative arrangement that we have negotiated.
The amount of money at this time, I don’t have the details but, within the budgets of the Atlantic Provinces,
we will be cost-sharing on programs to promote Atlantic Canada as part of Canada as a tourism destination
around the world.

MR. MCINNES: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for that answer. I believe it is an important
undertaking and I am pleased that we are going to be participating. I also understand that there will be
appointments from, perhaps, the Atlantic Provinces to this commission, and will Nova Scotia have
representation on that commission?

[1:00 p.m.]

MR. BRAGG: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure at this time whether we will have our own dedicated Nova
Scotia representative or whether it will be one from Atlantic Canada because we do all our outward marketing
through this Atlantic group. I will certainly find out and advise the member. I would also like to add that
previous to this we did cooperative tourism subagreements with the federal Department of Industry Canada
to promote tourism outside of this region under a tourism federal-provincial subagreement. That agreement
is now coming to its end and some of the funding that was previously in that agreement will now be replaced
under this joint agreement that they have announced out of Ottawa.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party.


MR. JOHN HOLM: I would like to go back with this question again to the minister responsible for
casinos. If the government is bent on proceeding with its foolhardy decision to establish casinos, which one
hopes of course that they won’t, there has to be some confidence. Certainly confidence in the whole selection
process has to be shaken if you are going to have one person who is deciding which project will be the final
winner is in fact sitting in judgment of a proposal put forward by a business associate. My question to the
minister is quite simply, what is the minister prepared to do to try to restore some confidence to the selection

HON. BERNARD BOUDREAU: Mr. Speaker, while I appreciate that the honourable member’s
concern is genuine as always, I have to tell him that the test, the real test surely, to be fair, is the test that all
Nova Scotians will apply and that is simply this, will any member of the commission or any members’
company possibly achieve any financial gain or advantage as a result of the decision? If the answer is no,
surely that is the test.

MR. HOLM: I would suggest that surely the test is also to ensure that it is a completely arm’s length
process and in speaking with the chair of the casino project this morning, staff was told that in fact nobody
on the project team has indicated that there are any conflicts of interest or even potential conflicts. My
question to the minister is quite simply this, is it the view of the government that the way that anybody who
is a proponent can ensure that there is a level playing ground and that they will all be assured of being treated
equally is to go and hire other business associates of members on the project team?

MR. BOUDREAU: Mr. Speaker, this line of questioning is bordering either on the silly or the
mischievous. Surely, as I repeat again the test is whether or not an individual or his company or her company
can in any way benefit or gain any advantage whatever from the decision and if the answer is no then
potentially there can be no conflict of interest. To satisfy the level of paranoia in the Third Party would be
completely impossible at times. I would simply say there might be a secretary whose third cousin deals
blackjack somewhere but surely, the fundamental fair question to ask is the one that I outlined for the House.

MR. HOLM: If you wanted to define the word, silly, all you have to do is look at the minister’s
answer and you have a definition for it right there. My final question to the minister is quite simply this, will
the minister provide instructions that any member of that project team who is a business associate of one of
the proponents who is putting in an application, will the minister instruct that that team member withdraw
from any consideration of applications that deal with proposals from a business associate?

MR. BOUDREAU: I clearly laid out the criteria when I spoke to these individuals and asked them
to take on this task, those members of the Casino Project Committee and I firmly laid out the basis for their
action. In my view there is no evidence whatever of any breach of those fundamental principles given here
today by this honourable member. I will not, I repeat, interfere in the arm’s length process that has occurred
and I should not.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley.




MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: My question is for the honourable Minister of Labour. I wonder is the
minister aware that at least 40 former front-line supervisors, former employees of the Department of
Transportation, have filed a wrongful dismissal application before the Labour Standards Division?

HON. JAY ABBASS: I am not personally aware of that myself, Mr. Speaker, although it is not
unusual that I would not be since that is a matter more for the Labour Relations Board. I am supposed to be,
as minister, at arm’s length from the board.

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the minister’s response. The former employees made their
application in late April and to date, other than a very brief phone call from the head of the Labour Standards
Division, they have not heard a word.

I wonder if the minister could update Nova Scotians today as to when or if an investigation of
wrongful dismissal by the Department of Transportation is underway?

MR. ABBASS: I just want to clarify, is the member opposite talking about the Labour Standards
Tribunal or the Labour Relations Board? It must be the tribunal.

It is the tribunal. The one thing I am concerned about, Mr. Speaker, is that within that particular
division, we are experiencing delays in getting investigations completed and reports out. That is something
that my acting deputy minister and I are actively working on right now.

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for that response. The reason I am concerned and
the reason the former employees are concerned is because they have not heard a word for six months and I
appreciate the minister trying to be at arm’s length and I would ask him to look into the matter if he would,

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Pictou Centre.


DR. JOHN HAMM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. On October
27th, the minister announced a metro amalgamation. On October 28th, she announced the appointment of
a commissioner to look after the amalgamation process. During the course of interviews with the press, she
announced a metro municipal election in November 1995 and the new government would take control on
April 1, 1996.

Well, it is obvious that there has been a change in that timetable. I would now ask the minister,
would she outline for the House her new timetable for metro amalgamation?

HON. SANDRA JOLLY: Mr. Speaker, the timetable, as has been suggested, is April 1, 1996.

DR. HAMM: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for the answer. The last item on the calender then
has been unchanged. Will the minister then tell the House when will the new commissioner be appointed and
start his or her duties in terms of metro amalgamation?

MS. JOLLY: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to answer that question. I think, as the House knows,
November 30th, tomorrow, is the closing date of the tender call for the coordinator. That has been in the paper
and has been notified. We would hope to be able to appoint that individual, whoever the coordinator may be,
some time around the middle of December and then have that coordinator start out to do public meetings and
public consultations in the earlier part of January.

I would just like to clarify for the House that the coordinator, one of the things that we will also ask
that coordinator is to review the time schedule for the election date - and that would be something that we
would ask of the coordinator in their job of reviewing the amalgamation and in reviewing the timetables that
have been out there - of April 1, 1996, that we would ask the coordinator to take a look at the suggested date
of the election and see how that would fit. (Applause)

DR. HAMM: Mr. Speaker, by way of final supplementary, would the minister then reconfirm that
it is her absolute intention that the election will occur some time before April 1996, to allow the new
municipality to begin on April 1, 1996. Is that her timetable at this time?

MS. JOLLY: Mr. Speaker, certainly April 1, 1996, is the date that the amalgamation will take place
and the new uniform city would come into place. Certainly when the commissioner does go through and look
at a number of issues that have to be discussed, the election date is one of them that the commissioner will
review. But I would suggest that the council certainly would have to be in place prior to the amalgamation.

MR. SPEAKER: I will recognize the honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party.


MR. JOHN HOLM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Natural Resources. The tendering
guidelines that have been in effect for about five years say that any space requirements over 2,500 square feet
are to be tendered. My question to the minister is quite simply, when you were talking about relocating your
office space, why was that not tendered?

HON. DONALD DOWNE: The tendering policy guidelines and exemptions that we followed were
approved by Cabinet in February 1989. Those guidelines indicate to us that because of our existing lease that
we have, we are able to add to it, so the adding to the lease was totally in line. I think we should congratulate
Mr. Terry Donahoe, I understand he was the one who had the foresight and anticipation for these particular
provisions to be added to the agreement.

MR. HOLM: When the member who the minister refers to introduced them, I said, and I think the
members on the government side were also extremely critical when they were over here because they
recognized that the holes were so gaping that you could drive a fleet of 18-wheelers through those holes side
by side, Mr. Speaker.

This minister and this government was supposedly bringing in a new broom and a new way of doing
things. Now you have decided that you are going to use the old loopholes. In the minister’s statement he said
that this transfer, this relocation, was going to save over $300,000 a year. Now when you take a look at the
cost per square foot in Founders Square and you compare that in the Torrington Place in Dartmouth and the
price per square foot, $18 versus $21, plus change, and the reduced amount of space, the saving is nowhere
near that, in fact, it is about one-fifth of the amount of the savings.

I would like to ask the minister where the extra $240,000 in savings, which doesn’t come from saved
rent, is actually coming from?

MR. DOWNE: Now, Mr. Speaker, I appreciate very much the opportunity to answer the question.
I wish the member opposite would have read in detail the press statement I made because I also pointed out
not only the fact that there is savings in the space but also in the fact that duplication in services and early
retirement programs. In fact if the member opposite wants a detailed explanation, I would be very happy to
do so. In fact the savings to the Province of Nova Scotia, to the taxpayers of this province, will be in excess
of $300,000 a year, merging the graphic and cardiographic service, to avoid replacing one of the four
technicians because of the early retirement program, a saving of $42,400.

Transfer of the photogrammetry equipment - I can’t even pronounce the word, actually, Mr. Speaker,
I went to a number of doctors and lawyers, trying to get a definition. Being a poultry farmer, it was hard to
figure this word out - to Municipal Affairs and the deletion of a technician person that was outlined in the
report, another saving of $41,500. The relocation, together with the restructuring, will result in a reduction
of two persons or positions at the management level and secretarial support, early retirement programs, a
saving of $181,200.

Mr. Speaker, reduction in staff travel time between Torrington Place and Founders Square will
estimate a saving of a half a person year, plus associate travel costs, a saving of $30,000 a year.

Mr. Speaker, the rent saving alone, on the basis of the Founders Square and Torrington Place, a
saving of $60,500. A total saving to the taxpayers of this province of $354,600. (Applause)

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley.


MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Natural Resources is his usual loquacious
self. My question is for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. I want to know and so does John
A. Greene from Queens County, can residents be assured that Moose Harbour Road located three miles south
of Liverpool will be sanded and salted on time so that people will be able to start work at 6:00 a.m., like it was
in 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, and 1992? Mr. Greene contends that from the service received on Wednesday of
last week, November 23rd, that it does not look as though the residents who live on the road can rely on being
able to drive up the hill, even in the event of a heart attack that may happen at 6:00 a.m. and I can certainly
table the letter?

[1:15 p.m.]

HON. RICHARD MANN: Mr. Speaker, he didn’t mention 1993; we would have to wonder what
happened that year. Let me say, last week, we gave all 52 MLAs a package, a kit on a communications plan
which outlined how the Department of Transportation tries to operate, which roads will be cleaned first of
snow and have salt applied, the secondary roads, when they will be done and then the other roads, the trunk
roads or county roads, when they might expect to be cleaned. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, I think everyone in the
province realizes that with 27,000 kilometres of roads, they are not all going to be cleaned immediately after
a snowstorm. We have one of the harshest climates in the world in terms of keeping roads clear, the freeze
and thaw cycles with ice, with freezing rain, with sleet, with snow.

If there is anyone and I said this yesterday in debate, if there is anyone that has a method that would
see all the roads in this province cleaned as quickly as everyone would like to see them cleaned, please come
forward because we will certainly listen to the suggestions people have. If the people have a way to effectively
deal with freezing rain as soon as it falls and forms ice on the road, we would listen to those suggestions and
we would be willing to attempt to put in place any methods they might suggest that would see all the roads
cleaned as quickly as people would like to see them cleaned.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The time allotted for the Oral Question Period has expired.

MR. JOHN HOLM: Mr. Speaker, I rise briefly on a point of privilege to inquire as to why my
opportunity to ask my second supplementary question was not allowed? I appreciate that the minister, in his
response to my first supplementary went on at great length and the minister gave a speech. That was not my
question and I believe that my privilege to ask my final supplementary was denied because of the minister
choosing to be long-winded and to read something that he said that he was going to table.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of privilege. I wish to refresh the memory of honourable members
on this matter. Both Beauchesne and Sir Erskine May establish that the extent to which supplementary
questions may be asked is at the discretion of the Speaker. It is the prerogative of the Chair and it is the
prerogative of the Chair to limit supplementary questions where it appears that the line of questioning and
answering may be getting out of hand, it is a judgment call on the part of the Chair and it is by all
parliamentary authorities in existence, the prerogative of the Chair.

I don’t feel that any explanation is required, it was at the tail-end of Question Period, there was
another member seeking the floor, he got the opportunity only to ask a single question without any
supplementaries at all. In the interest of balance and of giving all members ample opportunity to ask
questions, I might note that I feel that the rules are very clear on the matter, it is at the discretion of the Chair.
I might further point out that in this House, many years ago, it was customary for a Speaker to allow three
supplementary questions to an original question and that Mr. Speaker, Arthur Donahoe, in 1982 made a
Speaker’s Ruling that the number would be limited to a maximum of two. It is therefore at the discretion of
the Chair.

MR. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order or a point of correction, perhaps, the
honourable member was in the House at that time who is now the Speaker and I am sure that he is aware that
that was a recommendation from the Committee on Rules and Procedures, not from that former Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Recommended to the Speaker and he so ruled.

HON. RONALD STEWART: Mr. Speaker, I beg your indulgence on a point of clarification. In
Question Period, the honourable member for Halifax Fairview made some allegations which I think need
setting straight in the record, to the people of Nova Scotia, as well as the members of this House.

During that question, she stated that the physicians in the Emergency Department of the Victoria
General Hospital were not trained in trauma care. I wish to correct this impression and to inform the
honourable member opposite, as well as this House, that the physicians caring for trauma cases in the
Emergency Department of the Victoria General Hospital are the same trauma team leaders that were there
before last week and last year. Each of them are fully accredited in trauma and emergency medicine by either
the Royal College of this country, the College of Family Practice of this country or the American equivalent,
which is acceptable in this country for requirements.

They are the same people who have been caring for patients, very well, I might add, Mr. Speaker.
I would, again, remind the honourable member opposite that each of those individuals have a certification.

MR. TERENCE DONAHOE: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege. With all the greatest respect, it
is really becoming a sham here today. The honourable member of the New Democratic Party, the Leader of
the New Democratic Party, raised with you a concern and I suggest a legitimate one about the fact that he was
cut off from his second supplementary. With the greatest respect to the distinguished and learned Minister
of Health, he rose just a moment ago on what he described as a point of clarification.

I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that to my knowledge there is no such thing in our rules, in Beauchesne,
or in Erskine May. Yet you allow the Minister of Health to go on at considerable length to take further shots
at the member for Halifax Fairview because he, the minister, did not seem to think that he liked some of
things that she said in putting her questions.

With the greatest respect, Mr. Speaker, in order for all members of this House to have respect for you
and your degree of fairness and your equanimity as you make your rulings, you surely have to treat all
members equally. I say to you, with the greatest respect, that this last little example here in the last few
minutes is indicative of the fact that you seemed, at least, to my way of observation, to express and show some
predisposition to allow the Minister of Health to proceed on a point that does not exist in our rules, does not
exist in Beauchesne, does not exist in Erskine May and was nothing more than an attempt for him to have
a further kick at another member after Question Period had ended.

I, therefore, will conclude, Mr. Speaker, by pleading with you to establish with some degree of
precision and clarity whether or not, first of all there is any such thing in our rules as a point of clarification
and if there is, then fine, I have learned something. If there is not that on a future day this minister or anybody
else who gets up and looks for a point of clarification that he is sat down and that you would take a clear look
please at the ruling you made relative to the Leader of the New Democratic Party . . .

MR. SPEAKER: I have already done so. I have said that it is at the discretion of the Chair. That is
what Beauchesne and Erskine May say, too.

I might say that the honourable Leader of the Opposition rose on what he claimed to be a point of
privilege. Beauchesne and Sir Erskine May also state that the proper way to conclude any claimed point of
privilege is by way of a motion. There was no motion at the end of the point of privilege and I do not feel that
there is any point of privilege here. There is a point of order and the point of order is noted.

I might say that the Chair has no way of knowing in advance what any honourable member is going
to say when he or she rises to address the House. It has been a long-time usage and convention in this House,
from my many years of observation, that at the conclusion of Question Period, ministers will be recognized
by the Chair to make brief statements of further clarification or further elaboration by way of the statements
that they made in Question Period. It is not unknown for a minister to get up and volunteer papers that he or
she had promised to seek. (Interruption)

I have the floor right now, please. I do not want to stand up. I have the floor. It is a long-standing
usage in the House that the ministers in the Executive Council may address the House briefly after Question
Period to elaborate or to volunteer statements.

MR. TERENCE DONAHOE: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: The Speaker is not to be interrupted when he has the floor. I will, however,
conclude and the honourable Leader of the Opposition may have the floor.

MR. DONAHOE: Well, Mr. Speaker, with the greatest respect, I would ask you then, as you say to
us now what you are saying . . .

MR. SPEAKER: I had not concluded, I wasn’t permitted to.

MR. DONAHOE: Nor had I, Mr. Speaker, with respect, and was therefore unable to conclude what
I was attempting to offer as a point of privilege with a motion. But, if I may, let me just respond to what you
are now saying, giving us this lecture on giving the ministers opportunities to stand up immediately upon the
conclusion of Question Period, to make statements of clarification. If that is the case, I would ask the Speaker
to please inform me and all members what is the point of having, on our daily routine, as we do, an order of
business called Statements by Ministers. There is an opportunity for the Government House Leader, if his
Minister of Health wants to get up and make a statement, to get your attention, ask you to revert to the order
of business, Statements by Ministers. If you consider that that is appropriate, you give that authority and this
or any other minister can get up and do that.

I don’t want to be argumentative, Mr. Speaker, but I simply am frustrated, as are so many members
of this House, that day in and day out the consistency or, better said, with respect, lack of consistency of
rulings we receive from you, cause us tremendous concern and difficulty. We are attempting, under what we
consider to be very adverse conditions, as a consequence of much of your inconsistent ruling, to be able to
honestly and effectively represent the interests of the Opposition Parties and, more to the point, the thousands
of people whose views we try to bring to the floor of this Legislature.

MR. SPEAKER: I thank the honourable member for his remarks. I was in the course of attempting
to say, previously, that the honourable Minister of Health, in my view, made one minor procedural error, he
got up and stated that he wished to raise that point, I believe he said, of clarification, when he ought to have
said a point of order. Had he said a point of order, he could have gotten up and made the same remarks, with
no effect whatever on the proceedings.

If the honourable Minister of Health wishes to be recognized on a point of order, he may do at any
time and so may any member of this House. That is my ruling.

The honourable Minister of Health on a point of order.

HON. RONALD STEWART: I stand corrected, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Very well. That concludes those proceedings.

MS. ALEXA MCDONOUGH: Did you rule on the point of order that the Minister of Health stood
and raised, made further comments? Is that what you call a point of order, you can just stand up and keep the
debate going? If that is all that a point of order is, then I would like to stand up on a further point of order to
say that there is misinformation being given in regard to the fact that the personnel situation is not as the
minister describes it.

Now we could keep this going all afternoon, but is that a point of order? Perhaps what we should do
is ask once and for all for the Minister of Health to come in here tomorrow to make a ministerial statement
on how this very serious problem at the VGH Emergency Department, whereby we now do not have a trauma
team leader in place, is going to be addressed by this government and by this minister who likes to pose as
the ultimate authority on emergency care systems.

MR. SPEAKER: Well, that is the honourable member’s point of order. Now we all know that
Beauchesne states that a dispute as to facts between honourable members does not constitute a point of order
but the honourable members have made their points.

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RICHARD MANN: Mr. Speaker, I move that you now leave the Chair and the House resolve
itself into a Committee of the Whole House on Bills.

MR. SPEAKER: The motion is carried.

[1:29 p.m. The House resolved itself into a CWH on Bills with Deputy Speaker Mr. Gerald O’Malley
in the Chair.]

[6:00 p.m. CWH on Bills rose and the House reconvened. Mr. Speaker. Hon. Paul. MacEwan,
resumed the Chair.]

MR. SPEAKER: The winner of the draw for the Adjournment debate was the honourable member
for Halifax Fairview. The subject matter is:

Therefore be it resolved that this government finally address the continuing child care crisis.



MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable member for Halifax Fairview.


MS. ALEXA MCDONOUGH: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have the opportunity in the few
moments available to me in the so-called late debate to address the issue of the child care crisis in this
province and, more particularly, the failure of this government to live up to its election commitment to not
only recognize what a crisis there is with respect to child care in this province but to actually begin to take
action to deal with this crisis as a real priority.

Mr. Speaker, as you will know, I have submitted that topic on numerous occasions and only today
finally had the opportunity to address it in this debate. I couldn’t help but have my interest in raising it for
debate further reinforced by the statement attributed to the Premier over the weekend when he addressed a
Liberal fundraising brunch where he made the statement that he wished he could spend his time worrying
about day care instead of worrying about deficit reduction.

I guess he helps to make the first point I want to make which is, that I think you cannot forever keep
treating the issue of child care as if it is just a cost and take the position that there are not, in fact, some very
important preventive measures associated and some cost savings associated with putting in place an adequate,
affordable child care system in this province. As the government itself said when it was not just in Opposition
but when it took its supposed Liberal child care policy out to the public during the election campaign, we
cannot keep dealing with child care as if it is babysitting. We have to recognize that child care is inextricably
linked with early childhood development and if we are serious in regarding our human resource as our most
important resource and we are serious about recognizing that the education and development of our children
and youth are among the top priorities that we should be addressing, we have to recognize the lunacy and the
short-sightedness of not seeing a comprehensive, affordable child care system as an extremely important
building block and investment, not something that you just look at as an extra cost to the public purse but, in
fact, as an absolutely essential investment in the future of this province and its most important resource,
namely its people.

There is surely madness in separating out the notion that child care is one thing and that education
is something else because we know that the most formative years are the pre-school years and the most
important investment we can make is in those pre-school years.

Now, Mr. Speaker, we know what the Liberal Party said during the election, they said it was
completely unacceptable that the previous government had not acted decisively on the recommendations of
the Round Table on Child Care. They said that leadership was needed, and I quote directly from the Liberal
policy platform; to form a coherent and consistent vision of child care to govern the development of these
services in Nova Scotia. They went on to recognize the different aspects of the crisis in child care and said
they will not go away and that within the first three to six months in office a Liberal Government would get
on with developing that strategic plan, that it would get on with being proactive in regard to not further study
of the child care crisis but instead, acting on the crisis and getting on with public policy measures to address

Well, what have they done instead, Mr. Speaker? I have only a couple of minutes in which to outline.
It won’t take me very long because what they have done does not add up to very much. In August they
increased fees to parents on full subsidy. That is a mean-spirited, short-sighted policy that says those who, by
definition, are among the poorest who are affected by our child care system will be faced with paying higher
costs, a policy that goes against everything that was outlined by the Round Table on Child Care about
ensuring that child care was as accessible as it possibly could be.

Secondly, Mr. Chairman, a little known and, I think, almost unreported decision by this government
was that recently it eliminated, within the Department of Community Services, the position of day care
financial services officer. The minister is well aware of the high level of dissatisfaction from this decision
made by the government. The non-profit operators, as an association, the non-profit directors association has
written to the minister to express their grave disappointment in that decision to wipe out the position of the
financial officer, because, as they said so clearly, this was not only very important to their ensuring their full
financial accountability to the department and to the public, but it also was one of their few venues, one of
their few avenues for any kind of meaningful consultation with the government.

That brings me, Mr. Speaker, to the third concern that is very much out there. I guess I would be so
bold as to seek assurances from the minister that the threats that are now out there and the cause for concern
will not be carried out, and that is the concern that the government will reduce the salary enhancement grants
that were finally brought in after years and years and years of struggle, the salary enhancement grants that
were brought in to recognize how unacceptable it is to have underpaid child care staff in this province that
have to struggle to try to live on the inadequate child care salaries; the very difficult problem it poses for child
care centres to ensure that continuity of staff and the development of experienced staff, because of the high
turnover that results from paying such pathetic wages to child care staff.

So, Mr. Speaker, after a very high-profile round of lobbying in this province, literally on the steps
of the Legislature, there were salary enhancement grants brought in. We know that, overwhelmingly, the child
care workers in this province are women and women who are underpaid, any suggestion that this government
would go backwards instead of finally getting on some kind of a proactive child care path to begin to carry
out its commitments made to families in need of child care and to child care workers in this province, I hope
the minister will take the opportunity this afternoon to give an absolute assurance that the rumour that is very
widespread will not, in fact, be made true, and that this government will not reduce the child care salary
enhancement grants that were finally brought in a couple of years ago by a reluctant government, but in
response to a very strong demand by the public and particularly those concerned about our having a quality
child care system in the province.

Mr. Speaker, the minister knows how inadequate the salaries are now, how much difficulty child care
centres are having maintaining quality staff and ensuring that there is not further high turnover, and if this
government acts on the suggestion that seems to be very much on the table that the salary enhancement grants
will be reduced, I think it is breaking faith with the child care community, it is being very short-sighted and
I hope the minister will give a clear and unequivocal statement and an undertaking to this House that that will
not be done. Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Pictou Centre.

DR. JOHN HAMM: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to enter the debate on child care services this evening
as part of the late debate and pleased that the member for Halifax Fairview has brought this very important
issue to the House this evening.

It is particularly relevant, I think, in that just the other day the minister declared November 20th as
National Child Day. Of course, 1994 is also the International Year of the Family. So I think it is very
important that when we look at this that we address it in terms of the family and the child.

The issue and the importance of child care has become a very big issue and grows in leaps and
bounds each and every year. It is very important, not only in the support of the working parent, but also in
the support of our work force which depends on many of these people to be able to participate in the work
force and, most particularly, the health of the children progressing along with assistance to the child while
they are under the care of day care workers.

In the Axworthy Report it states that for most Canadian parents, “finding and paying for child care
is one of their real big concerns. In many cases, the lack of affordable, high quality child care is an
insurmountable barrier to a job.”. This is a very serious barrier, not only to individuals finding jobs, but also
to the very growth of our economy. The seriousness of child care is something that not so long ago simply was
not of great concern.

I would have to say that most individuals in this House had their mother to come home to while they
were of pre-school age and throughout their school years. It is truly an amazing shift and a shift in our
economy today that, as the Axworthy paper states, “Most Canadian Parents - including lone parents and those
with pre-school children - are now in the labour force.”.

The federal discussion paper, Agenda: Jobs and Growth, states that the federal government is
committed to supporting the provinces with a view to expanding the availability of child care in Canada. The
Liberal Red Book outlined a commitment of $720 million over three years to provide for the subsidization or
creation of up to 150,000 new spaces.

In the February budget the federal government set aside $360 million over two years for this very
purpose, to begin after a year of 3 per cent economic growth. The report indicates that they are forecasting
for 1994, growth in excess of 3 per cent. This will be good news, if it occurs.

The federal government each year spends $400 million in child care, mainly through the Canada
Assistance Program. There are 360,000 regulated child care spaces in Canada and 150,000 of those are
subsidized for low-income families. There are some 2,150 subsidized spaces now available in Nova Scotia.

But we must assure parents of the quality of the service. We must provide effective child care in a
good environment to allow them to grow and to learn. Effective child care can help to ensure the future
employment success of children who might otherwise be at risk. The federal government has articulated a
commitment to expand child care in this country, a commitment of $720 million over three years to create
150,000 new child care spaces.

The design and delivery of child care and social services are a provincial responsibility. In some areas
of the country, new spaces are needed, but in others more affordable spaces are needed.

Innovative programs beyond the babysitting function is indicated to maximize this great investment
in all of our youngsters. Child development services, proper training with clear objectives should be defined
in terms of all of our child care programs.

[6:15 p.m.]

We must link early childhood education and development into the day care program. This must not
just be a babysitting operation. Employers should be more proactive in providing spaces. The adequate
availability in the Civil Service of day care spaces, certainly I think is one objective that needs careful
attention. We must have flexibility in the hours of operation to allow parents to partake in various occupations
with unusual hours. The subsidy, I believe, at this point is some $16.85 for every space, bearing in mind that
the full fee is something over $20 per day.

One of the studies that was mentioned in the Liberal platform was an all-encompassing review by
the Round Table on Day Care. The round table recommended that 500 subsidized new spaces each year for
five years be created. In the three years since their report, the Liberals have created some 100 spaces. I would
challenge the minister today to offer some substance behind the obscure offer that a Liberal Government
would provide 500 spaces each year for five years.

To date, we have seen one announcement in a year and a half for a total of 50 new spaces, bearing
in mind, the previous government did not do much better but in fact, in the last two years had created 100 new
spaces. While I commend the minister for the addition of 50 spaces, it does not even come close to the number
requested by the round table and which was endorsed by his Party’s platform.

The Axworthy Report rightly advises that the choices made for any support that the provinces will
receive by way of child care are very important, I would even say critical. In some parts of Canada it states
that affordability is the problem. Some need new spaces and some areas are simply looking for new types of
child care to accommodate such things as non-standard work.

Any additional investment over the next several years could pay multiple dividends and in the future,
provide a more productive work force and jobs for child care workers, reduce pressure on over-burdened
income support programs and most important, enhance development of our children.

The Liberal Party in Nova Scotia like its federal counterpart rose to power on a platform of jobs, jobs,
jobs. This government has made several attempts to offer solutions to our job crisis but as yet we have yet to
see a great deal of those efforts come to fruition.

Child care is one of the areas that does have to be addressed before we do make any headway on
eliminating unemployment in our province. It is almost as clearly and demonstrably a part of necessary
infrastructure as are our road systems. The families of this province of all shapes and sizes, need to see that
this government is committed to solving the crisis. They need more solid proof that the Savage Government
will act on the difficulties inherent to Nova Scotian’s needs in child care.

The Liberal Party spoke of engaging professionals from the child care industries in a process of
strategic planning, to develop a timetable and fiscal strategy for implementing the recommendations of the
round table in their platform. I know the minister has sought advice from the Round Table on Day Care in
making his first choice for the 50 spaces allocated last September. My hope is that he is continuing to consult
with his advisory group as this government seeks to add further spaces and further solutions to the crisis. One
suggestion in the platform was to reduce the per seat cost of child care. To do this, they said, there are idle
classrooms in school and idle spaces in other public buildings for which the overhead costs are already being
paid. Piggy-backing child care in these facilities would reduce per seat costs, bringing money for use in other
aspects of child care provision.

In closing, Mr. Speaker, I encourage the efforts of the minister who fulfilled the Liberal pre-election
strategy in terms of child care. Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Community Services.

HON. JAMES SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the honourable member for putting the issue
of child care on the late debate. Certainly, it is important that all of us as legislators in this Assembly, renew
our commitment to the child care issues that face our society and that we give each other support and, as I
look to my colleagues within the Cabinet, for ongoing commitment as they have made.

I would particularly like to pay tribute to the Premier and his long-term commitment to child care
in areas that child care was unknown, in communities that the Premier and his other work had gone into those
communities and helped the groups initiate child care, and the support that we have had.

I just would like to make a few comments and then share some issues with the members in the debate
this evening. The issue that we are debating here this evening is extremely important, both in terms of social
development of our children, and in terms of supporting the needs of working families. Those families, for
whom the lack of day care makes finding a job difficult, if not impossible. Adequate, affordable and quality
day care is extremely important as we work to expand our economy. No one would deny that the lack of
affordable day care is clearly an impediment to the economic prosperity of many families who cannot look
for work or seek training because of the absence of suitable child care arrangements. There is absolutely no
question, Mr. Speaker, that this is a critical area of concern for the province and for our government.

As members would know, the federal government’s social security reform proposal calls for the
creation of an additional 150,000 day care seats across the country over the next three years, at a cost of $700
million. We have been pressing the federal government, through our ongoing discussions on social security
reform, for the need for additional subsidized spaces to accommodate both the social and the economic
aspiration of Nova Scotian families. I think, as other speakers have done this evening, Mr. Speaker, I, too,
would like to underline the importance, not only of allowing all equality women and men within the working
population to share in the economic renewal across our province, but also the social development and the
needs of children in their early development years.

We have stated that we require not only more subsidized spaces through the federal government, but
better cost-sharing arrangements with them. As well, we have been pressing for more flexible day care
arrangements to meet the different needs of Nova Scotian families who work outside the regular nine to five
work day. This is a pressing issue for many Nova Scotian families.

Mr. Speaker, this government has created, as the other speaker had mentioned, 100 subsidized spaces
since assuming office. With the 50 initial seats, we have an additional 50 that are being budgeted for, and in
consultation with the Round Table on Day Care, will be allocated early in the new year. The cost of these
spaces, approximately $250,000 net cost to the province, represents a significant investment in a time of
severe restraint. While I believe we have made progress, I also recognize that it falls short of meeting the
existing needs. No one would stand in their place here today in this House, and say that we are meeting the
needs of the children and the families of this province.

The issue, though, of 26 cents on the dollar that is coming in as revenues, that are going out for debt
servicing in this province, really has handicapped a new government, and any government, that wishes to
practise some economic control, or an expenditure control program. We are hopeful that the federal
government’s reforms will position us to significantly expand our ability to fund additional spaces and to meet
the needs of Nova Scotians with young families.

Mr. Speaker, I also want to address a number of other day care initiatives that are presently ongoing.
As many members would know, the legislative subcommittee on the Round Table on Day Care has been
developing a draft discussion paper on a new day care Act and regulations. This draft document has been
circulated to all day care centres, for their input and comments. The responses are now being consolidated
by the round table and following further review, they will be presented to the department early in the new

Mr. Speaker, I have been particularly appreciative of the efforts of the Round Table on Day Care.
They are a cross-section of parents, those in the academic setting, and training of those within the child care
givers, and from the profit, non-profit, and a good cross-section of people representing the needs of child care
across this province and they have been very supportive.

The primary reason for developing a new day care Act is to improve standards and to ensure that day
care centres throughout Nova Scotia provide quality care to our children. I am looking forward to receiving
the round table’s final proposal and to introducing legislation and supports that meet our objectives of
enhancing child care services across this province.

Mr. Speaker, in summary, the issue of child care is one that, while the government must show
leadership and these points are well taken by previous speakers and we must somehow find within our means
the economics and the monies into this system. But further, this is an issue of great societal concern and, with
that, society must address the issue.

For some reason, in this country, we have not really seen the importance and, particularly, in the
early childhood development area. I did want to just highlight a few of the issues that I think our society has
to buy into and has to support and we, as legislators, have to respond to that particular need.

The socialization issue and child development, the early childhood educational experiences. The
child that presents at school at the age of five, without an early childhood educational experience, is really
already quite behind. So, there is a flow of this learning process and we now have a better idea of how
children learn and how they process information.

In addition, Mr. Speaker, the importance of the preventive programs, both for child health and that
of personal safety and those issues that we have tried to develop within our particular department that work
within the preventive programs throughout this province. In particular, I would mention the early intervention
programs for children with special needs, both physical and behaviour. Because some of these needs are
presenting very early and can be identified.

The primary school teachers can identify behaviour issues that really do need special attention, both
within the special education needs, but also, perhaps, in the support services of a mental health and a true
preventive mental health issue. To wait until later and the intervention programs that are called early
intervention that are dealing with adolescents and older age groups are just really not effective and must be
in place in our child care system and our early primary schools.

Mr. Speaker, particularly in Nova Scotia, one area in which we have done well and I think the other
speakers have mentioned, I think the salaries that are being offered are an embarrassment right across this
country. I will pay tribute to the staff and those day care centres that I have visited, particularly the one in
Dartmouth, and we had a good discussion. We sat around and it was easy to see that these young people have
been trained well, 88 per cent of the child care workers in this province have a post-secondary degree or
diploma. There is only one other province that ranks to that across this country and that is Ontario.

So, we have the people, the resources of staff and the commitment of people. But what is happening
is they are spending some time in child care. They are looking at their salaries. They are wanting to have
families of their own. They are looking at helping support a home and a family and a house and the basic
needs of families. The salaries are not able to do that. That is one that I am very conscious of as a minister.
I take that very seriously and certainly will be making representations to the Cabinet during budget times.

To answer, particularly, some questions that were raised, I will try just briefly. As far as the
reorganization and as members would know, our department, our head office is collapsing. We are moving
more people into the field and the financial services will be provided to child care, but they will be regrouped
in another way. We are not withdrawing from that service and I make that commitment.

The other one, the salary enhancement grants, while we cannot increase them like we would, we
certainly will be holding them. I have heard the rumours, as well. Apparently they were on the table
somewhere that they might be reduced and this is not so and I am pleased to inform the House of that tonight.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to close and make the commitment on behalf of our government, as Minister
of Community Services, to the children and families of Nova Scotia and their special needs, with child care
as a continuum of a learning and a social development process of the children of Nova Scotia. (Applause)

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The time allotted for the Adjournment debate has expired. The House
will now revert to Committee of the Whole House on Bills.

[6:30 p.m. The House resolved itself into a CWH on Bills with Deputy Speaker, Mr. Gerald O’Malley
in the Chair.]

[7:58 p.m. CWH on Bills rose and the House reconvened with Deputy Speaker Mr. Gerald O’Malley
in the Chair.]

MR. SPEAKER: The Chairman of the Committee of the Whole House on Bills reports:

THE CLERK: That the committee has met and made considerable progress and asks leave to sit

MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Tomorrow is Opposition Day.

The honourable Leader of the Opposition.

MR. TERENCE DONAHOE: Mr. Speaker, it is the Official Opposition’s intention tomorrow
following Question Period to call for debate Bill No. 130. It is our intention, our thought that we will probably
finish Question Period around, we are guessing obviously, at about 4:15 p.m., we will call Bill No. 130 at 4:15
p.m. and debate that for one hour; at 5:15 p.m. approximately, for one-half hour, debate Resolution No. 1128
and for the remainder of the time, 5:45 p.m. to 6:00 p.m., do our best to pass a few House Orders.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. RICHARD MANN: Mr. Speaker, I assume we will be sitting then from 2:00 p.m. until 6:00
p.m. and with that, I move that we adjourn until 2:00 p.m. tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The motion for adjournment has been made and carried.

The House will now rise to sit again tomorrow at 2:00 p.m.

[The House rose at 8:00 p.m.]



By: Mr. George Archibald (Kings North)

I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move that an order of this House do issue for a return
showing, with respect to the Nova Scotia Economic Renewal Agency:

(1) A breakdown of funding arranged between three local stevedoring companies and the
provincial government concerning the writing of a three year marketing plan for the Sheet Harbour Industrial

(2) A list of the 28 vessels which called at Sheet Harbour in 1993 and a list of the products
being carried and the destination the products were destined for; and

(3) A list of the vessels which have called at the Sheet Harbour Industrial Port to date in 1994
and a list of the products being carried and the destination the products were destined for.


By: Mr. Brooke Taylor (Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley)

I hereby give notice that on a future day I shall move that an order of this House do issue for a return
showing, with respect to the Department of Natural Resources:

(1) A costing of what the lease at Torrington Place in the Burnside Industrial Park cost the
Department of Natural Resources in the 1993-94 and 1994-95 fiscal years;

(2) A costing of the necessary renovations being made at Founders Square to accommodate the
move of staff from Torrington Place effective December 1, 1994;

(3) A costing of what the additional 6,000 square feet at Founders Square will be for the
Department of Natural Resources; and

(4) Cost of the newspaper ads advising Nova Scotians of the move from Torrington Place to
Founders Square.