HALIFAX, TUESDAY, APRIL 21, 2015

 

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY

 

2:55 P.M.

 

CHAIRMAN

Ms. Patricia Arab

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: I would like to call the subcommittee to order, if members could take their seats, please. We will be doing the estimates of the Department of Justice.

 

Resolution E13 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $327,593,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Justice, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I would ask the minister to introduce her staff who are with her.

 

            HON. LENA DIAB: Good afternoon, Madam Chairman and thank you very much. It is my privilege to again be here this year to present the estimates for the Department of Justice 2015-16, and talk a little bit about the tremendous work my department and our partners are doing every day to keep Nova Scotians safe and secure, as well as safe-guarding our collective right to an open, accountable and fair justice system.

 

            Before I get underway, you're quite right, I'd like to introduce to the committee the wonderful and hard-working, capable team that is with me today. To my left is Tilly Pillay who is the Acting Deputy Minister for the Department of Justice, and to my right is Suzanne Ley who is the Acting Executive Director of Nova Scotia Office of Immigration. I also have in the room with me a number of other people who I will introduce right now. I will call upon them when and if we need to: Greg Penny is the Department of Justice Executive Director of Finance and Administration. I'm also joined by William Smith who is the Department of Justice Executive Director of Correctional Services; Ken Winch, the Executive Director of Court Services; and Robert Purcell, the Executive Director of Public Safety and Security.

 

            As you know, I'm also the Attorney General and I have the responsibility for the Public Prosecution Service so behind me also please welcome Martin Herschorn, Director of Public Prosecution Service.

 

            Let me begin my remarks first by speaking about the Department of Justice. I just want to point to the committee's attention, at the end of today's presentation I will be making six resolutions.

 

            The Department of Justice is relatively small, compared with other government departments, but its importance to Nova Scotians cannot be understated. Our responsibilities are significant and our challenges constantly evolving: the rise in cyber-related crime being just one example.

 

            We are a department that delivers on its core principles and we are able to do so because of the quality of our people and services we have in place. As a province we benefit from the many strong partnerships we have in the justice community. That includes our municipal and federal police services, our Crowns, Nova Scotia Legal Aid and our employees, as well as strong relationships we have with the judiciary in this province. You only need to look as far as this past February, to see an example of that partnership in action, where police, Crime Stoppers and others came together to avert a tragedy, stopping a planned mass shooting at a local shopping mall on Valentine's Day.

 

            Nova Scotians can be extremely proud of the work they and our staff do on their behalf every day, whether it is dealing with issues of public safety and security in our correctional facilities, through legal services, or in the courts. I want to thank each and every one of our more than 1,600 employees for their commitment to the people of this province.

 

            Madam Chairman, I'd like to provide a few facts and figures to the committee and then highlight a number of our strategic priorities and goals in the coming year. The Department of Justice is responsible for four adult correctional facilities in Dartmouth, Sydney, Yarmouth, and Pictou, which just opened in February. We also operate two youth facilities in Cape Breton and Waterville; two community-based attendance centres in Halifax and Waterville.

 

There are 13 full-service justice centres across the province, 10 of which are outside metro. They are located in Amherst, Antigonish, Bridgewater, Digby, Metro Halifax, Kentville, Pictou, Port Hawkesbury, Sydney, Truro and Yarmouth. These full-service justice centres are supplemented by five satellite courts, and I'll be speaking more in a moment about the satellite courts.

 

            We also have 21 community correction offices across the province providing probation services. The department provides administration support to the courts, including the Nova Scotia Court of Appeal, the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia, including the Family Division, Provincial Court, Family Court, Small Claims Court, Probate Court and Bankruptcy Court.

 

            There are 10 municipal police forces in Nova Scotia and a total of 878 officers sworn under the Police Act. While municipalities pay for policing, the Department of Justice provides oversight. We also provide oversight for approximately 1,000 RCMP officers. The RCMP is the province's provincial police force for which Justice funds 70 per cent and the federal government funds 30 per cent.

 

            The Department of Justice recovers part of our costs back from municipalities for those municipalities using the RCMP. However, we still contribute approximately $49 million to ensure our police agencies are supported by specialized and centralized services.

 

            In addition to several agencies, boards and commissions, I'm also responsible for a number of independent agencies: the Human Rights Commission, the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Office, and the Office of the Police Complaints Commission. The others also include the Public Trustee, the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner, the Serious Incident Response Team, and the Workers Compensation Appeal Tribunal. It is an honour and a privilege for me to be the minister responsible for these agencies.

 

            I would like to highlight our key priorities in the Department of Justice. They are: improving access to justice; working together with community organizations and other justice partners to reduce crime and prevent crime; and fiscal sustainability. The department has been working to both enhance and expand our family justice services and programs so that people feel more confident about their ability to navigate that system. Much of that work has benefited Nova Scotians in rural Nova Scotia. We're also working with our partners to reduce delays and increase the efficiency of our criminal courts.

 

            All of this work will continue to be a key focus for us throughout the next fiscal year. We recognize the need to work with community, justice and government partners in order to create the right conditions for preventing and reducing crime in Nova Scotia. We are focused on supporting at-risk and vulnerable groups such as youth and marginalized communities.

 

We are working together to effect change through innovative crime prevention models and programs based on partnerships. For example, the Department of Justice's HUB model is a collaborative response model targeting at-risk youth and families. This model recognizes a traditional police response will not resolve all issues. It works to prevent and reduce crime, through the development of community and justice system partnerships. There are currently nine HUB models operating in the province. In 2015-16 the department will be establishing a framework for tailoring a Nova Scotia-focused HUB model that meets the unique needs of our youth at risk.

 

            We are also continuing to test the public health-based intervention model called CeaseFire that is designed to reduce gun violence through street level intervention and community mobilization. CeaseFire, which is celebrating its first anniversary, works with the highest risk youth and young adults. We are enhancing programming for adult offenders with a variety of programs including the establishment of an intensive direct supervision unit and expansion of the Building Bridges program to the Central Nova Scotia Correctional Facility.

 

            This year we are also improving our integration of custodial and community service delivery with the assignment of community corrections staff to work more closely with the four adult correctional institutions. We are a department that is not sitting still. We are constantly innovating and looking at new and strategic ways to maintain a responsive, effective and transparent justice system. We are keeping ourselves focused on our priorities and we will be doing so by using our limited resources strategically and as effectively as we possibly can.

 

            I would now like to turn my attention to the financial picture for 2015-16. Estimate debates have been underway and I'm sure you've heard a great deal about the challenges and the economic conditions that face our province. Departments and agencies, to no surprise of anyone around here, have been asked to look very hard at reducing and doing more and better with less resources, in determining our priorities. We need to critically assess what we're spending on and how we can do things as cost-effectively as possible. The Department of Justice is no different. There is pain in this budget, but it is a sound budget and it is a strategic budget, focused on our priorities and the priorities of Nova Scotians.

 

            Our budget for the Department of Justice increased by slightly more than $5 million or 1.6 per cent this year, a modest increase on a $327.6 million budget. We had to work hard to find savings this year. Much of the increase you see is a reflection of our investment in people. Our budget for Nova Scotia Legal Aid staff increased by 9.7 per cent this year or $2.2 million. This included salary increases as well an additional $500,000 to increase the payments to private lawyers who take on legal aid cases. This was the first increase in legal aid certificates in a decade. Maintaining a high quality legal aid service is crucial.

 

            Public Prosecution Crowns also received salary increases of $1.6 million. This was an increase that was overdue and represented their first increase since 2009. The budget also includes the opening of the new correctional facilities, the North East Nova Scotia Correctional Facility in Pictou, which opened in February, and the operation of the new cyber scan unit that was created to investigate incidents of cyber bullying and is available to all Nova Scotians who need help.

 

            I highlight to you where we found savings and efficiencies. We found about $1.2 million in reductions this year; some of this has been done through internal reductions. We have 20 fewer FTEs this year and we were able to do this without layoffs. We eliminated 19 vacant positions through our budget exercise. We also transferred 31 positons to Internal Services through shared services. However with the opening of the North East Nova Scotia Correctional Facility, we were able to increase staffing by 85 additional positions. Our department funded FTE total for the department is 1,607 - down from 1,627 last fiscal.

 

Like all departments we are holding the line on spending by focusing on the core responsibilities of government, by questioning how government has always done things, and by making structural changes that will work better for the province and cost less. Court services was just one area where through program review we were able to identify areas where we could find savings and at the same time maintain, and in some cases actually improve, efficiency.

 

None of the decisions we made through this budget were easy but the status quo wasn't working. The fact is we need to stop doing things that no longer make best use of limited resources and that we can afford, as difficult as that might be.

 

Justice is consolidating seven of our 12 satellite courts at local Justice Centres. Many of our satellite courts are dealing with declining number of cases and they need substantial work to meet security and safety standards of a modern courthouse. There have been long-time concerns over safety and security of our staff and Nova Scotians using some of the courts, in fact the number have been subject to Occupational Health and Safety complaints and concerns over accessibility. Several do not have proper holding cells. At the same time we are challenged to improve security and safety at some of our major Justice Centres, including Spring Garden Road and Sydney. The truth is we cannot afford to maintain and upgrade all the court facilities that we have. We're not alone in this - New Brunswick made the same hard choice in their budget just a few weeks ago.

 

These are tough decisions and we know this will be inconvenient for some Nova Scotians. We have a duty to provide safe and secure courthouses, full stop. Satellite courts represent less than one and half per cent of all court time in the province and typically sit three to four times a month. Baddeck and Port Hood, for example, have less than four sitting per month. It is also important to remember that we do not own the spaces where satellite courts are located and that they are not staffed full-time so it makes sense that we focus our investments on buildings we own. We will be working with our partners in these communities and the judiciary to ensure a smooth transition.

 

            I understand the concern expressed by the municipalities affected. It's hard, we know that, but as Justice Minister I have to make sure our resources are focused where they are needed most. Our hope is that consolidating the courts will allow for additional court sittings to be added to the dockets in existing Justice Centres.

 

            We continue to have significant coverage across the province with 18 Justice Centres and satellite courts serving Nova Scotians. We have to remember that we are a province of less than one million people. Province-wide, consolidating our satellite courts will save $482,000 annually.

 

            We will be working with courts to support them through the transition, which we expect will take up to six months. At the same time we have consolidated the two metro night courts at Halifax Provincial Court at Spring Garden Road. Both the Dartmouth and the Halifax Night Court operate four nights a week, handing mostly summary offence tickets and contested peace bond matters. There will be no jobs lost.

 

            We are also planning changes at the Justice of the Peace Centre in Dartmouth, which will operate under reduced hours during the day. Round-the-clock service will still be preserved; matters arising between 9:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m. during the week will simply move back to the jurisdiction of the Provincial Court. Judges and staff Justices of the Peace, instead of presiding Justices of the Peace, will deal with emergency protection orders and warrants during business hours. After-hours coverage will not change; a presiding Justice of the Peace will continue to be on call overnight and on weekends. This transition will occur over the next several months.

 

            I will ensure that the Department of Justice continues to do its part to look closely at programs and services and help government meet economic and fiscal challenges head on. That means working closely with staff and partners and across government, thinking critically and having honest conversations about our areas of focus. I know my deputy minister and all staff have been looking strategically and trying to focus our attention as much as we can on these items.

 

This Spring our department launched its new, three-year strategic plan. It is a plan that will move us towards a justice system that is even more responsive and focused on improving access. If I may, Madam Chairman, I'd like to touch on some of the highlights of the past year and how we plan to build on our successes.

 

            Public safety and security: crime prevention will continue to be the foundation for everything we do. A commitment to crime prevention is the most effective way to reduce crime and make our community safer. In the latest figures from the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, it indicates that Nova Scotia's crime rate has dropped by 11 per cent from the prior year. Violent crime has decreased by 9 per cent. We are doing a lot of things right.

 

            We are well-resourced when it comes to police in this province. Nova Scotia's rate of police strength is 200 officers per 100,000 population, or one for every 500 residents, which is just above the national average and one of the highest in the country. Our contributions to public safety will increase to $135 million this year, about $77 million of which we recover from municipalities.

 

            Our CyberSCAN Unit, the first of its kind in Canada, plays a vital role in educating Nova Scotians and holding cyberbullies responsible for their online harassment, under the Cyber Safety Act. The unit dealt with 523 complaints and has made more than 500 presentations to schools, the public and police since September 2013. Our investigators are skilled, not only at addressing concerns before they escalate, many of their cases are resolved informally. Since its inception 172 complaints were resolved without having to issue a cyber-protection order or warning.

 

Our partnerships with police are also saving lives on the road. After our first full year following the restructuring of our RCMP provincial traffic program, the results were very good. The program shifted to a service delivery model using traffic analysis and other intelligence gathered from accident data, complaints, and reports of road hazards to better control the roads and highways. The change in service delivery did not require any additional investment and is a good example of looking for ways to do things better and smarter with the same investment. As a result our highways are made safer for motorists and pedestrians; fatalities are down 32 per cent over earlier years.

 

Madam Chairman, government is committed to providing safer communities for our citizens. Crime Stoppers is one of those programs that provide us a valuable benefit for our communities. As I mentioned earlier Crime Stoppers was instrumental in preventing a tragedy of a potential massive scale just a couple of months ago. We fund the provincial police position to perform the duties of the provincial Crime Stoppers coordinator; we also just provided an additional one-time funding for Crime Stoppers in the amount of $25,000 to assist the work they do.

 

I also want to highlight our community crime prevention grants program - 21 community organizations receive $12,000 to address youth crime. Each partnership is unique, meeting the needs of youth in their home communities.

 

I'd like to take a few moments to speak about the good work underway in our Correctional Services. There has been a lot of media attention focused on our correctional facilities. What people sometimes fail to see is the positive work that is being done to improve our faculties, support our correctional staff, and the progress we're making to address longstanding issues such as overcrowding.

 

In fact, the issue of overcrowding is now an issue that we are making rapid gains on. The opening of the North East Nova Scotia Correctional Facility added 150 more beds to our overall capacity and has resulted in a decline in the offender population of the Central Nova Scotia Correctional Facility. In the month of March the Burnside jail was at only 77 per cent capacity. As of today we do not have an overcrowding problem. North East began receiving offenders in February and has 131 employees. Recruitment is still underway for 21 relief correctional officers.

 

Government has taken a major step forward in the past year toward improving staff and offender safety at Burnside, including investing $4 million to renovate and introduce direct supervisions, $2 million in security upgrades, and $140,000 for new protective gear. We have introduced more stringent recruitment practices involving physical fitness, and security background checks. Correctional Services is hiring social workers and bringing probation officers into facilities to build strong release plans and improve connections between facilities and communities. We have increased the number of supports to offenders including: options to anger, substance abuse, education, vocational training, creative writing, and WOLF.

 

WOLF, the canine therapy program at Burnside has been a great success. It started in 2013 and in October last year we expanded it to included female offenders. It costs only $60,000 a year and it is cost shared, 50/50, with the offenders who themselves contribute through a fund. So far, offenders have trained 300 puppies for adoption to loving families; a win/win for offender rehabilitation and for the community.

 

            After a successful pilot in Sydney, the department has introduced video court on a permanent basis, effective April 1, 2015. Video court will increase safety and minimize court delays. We expect it to produce great benefits for all justice partners. The pilot we started in Sydney was a great success, linking correctional facilities to the Provincial Court.

 

            I'd like to take a moment to speak on my role as the Attorney General. This is a role I take very seriously. This role makes my position in Cabinet somewhat unique to that of my other Cabinet colleagues. As the Attorney General, I am a guardian of the public interest. I have a responsibility to see that government's administration and duties are carried out in accordance with the law. I am also the official legal advisor of government. It is these unique functions that make this Cabinet role unlike that of any other minister or any other lawyer.

 

            One of the most important things we do at the Department of Justice is to keep Nova Scotians safe. To do this there are 1,600 staff who work across the province in our regional offices, courthouses, correctional facilities and communities as probation officers, Victim Services caseworkers and more. There are countless lawyers, judges, police officers, community groups that are part of the justice system.

 

We work collaboratively with many partners including the judiciary, the Public Prosecution Service, Nova Scotia Legal Aid, Nova Scotia Barristers Society, police, community crime prevention organizations, and other community groups. We also work with the federal and municipal government, as well as provincial government departments. Without these partnerships, important things like the Mental Health Court in Dartmouth, the Domestic Violence Court in Sydney, the restorative justice and now our court monitored drug treatment program would not exist. There is no doubt that the dedication and commitment of all these people, their focus on safety, is integral to keeping our cities and our communities and our homes safe.

 

            We are maintaining our specialty court programs, including the Mental Health Court and we are extending the Domestic Violence Court pilot for another year so that we continue to provide better services and supports to people in our justice system with unique needs; monitoring and evaluating the impact that the Cyber Safety Act is having on the issue of cyber safety, of cyberbullying, and opening our new correctional facility in Pictou County; improving access to justice; and continuing to make the system more efficient, client-focused and cost-effective.

 

            We have to put our public first and we have to work together. We have to educate to prevent and we must make our system efficient and sustainable. We have to take action and we have to evaluate our performance.

 

            We are making positive changes. Sometimes you hear only the negative but I thought it was important for today that I stress the positives that we are making because I am a person who likes to stress the positive, recognizing that there are challenges and recognizing that we have limited resources and that we do need to change things and we do need to think outside the box and make sure we do better and improve.

 

            Now I'd like to talk about the Public Prosecution Service as I am responsible for that agency. The Nova Scotia Public Prosecution Service represents the Crown in criminal proceedings. It was established in 1990 under the Public Prosecutions Act as the first independent prosecution service in Canada. It employs 94 Crown attorneys and has a total staff of 167, in 20 offices across the province. Our Crowns handle about 48,000 Criminal Code charges every year. In addition to prosecuting all Criminal Code offences in Nova Scotia, the PPS is responsible for prosecuting some 10,000 violations of provincial statutes annually.

 

            The PPS also appeals decisions made by the courts in indictable proceedings where the Crown determines the court has made an error in law. Continuing education is a priority for this organization. It is important that Crown attorneys and support staff are able to enhance their expertise on an ongoing basis. At the end of the day, this results in better quality prosecution services.

 

            I also want to take a few moments to talk about the challenges facing the Nova Scotia Public Prosecution Service. Major cases are complex and often high profile and require a significant amount of time, skill and dedication from more than one Crown attorney. Public safety and the public perception of the justice system are influenced by the outcome of these cases. The PPS makes is a practice to assign at least two Crown attorneys to each murder case, at least one being a senior Crown attorney. This is essential in order to professionally respond to the demands of those difficult cases.

 

            Many major or specialized prosecutions are handled by members of the Services Special Prosecution section. Such prosecutions include complex fraught cases, historical sexual assaults, cyber-crime cases, child pornography cases, provincial regulatory offenses and aboriginal law cases. The PPS continues to spearhead the province-wide e-disclosure initiative to facilitate the Crown's ability to receive uniform electronic disclosure from police.

 

            This year, in addition to ongoing governance, the PPS will develop the requirements for a system to support role-based electronic transfers, eliminating the use of CDs and DVDs. Research will be conducted into technological requirements in the courts to support e-disclosure and an approach will be developed to ensure universal compliance.

 

            I introduced earlier the Director of the Public Prosecution Service, and I'm also pleased that with me today is the new Deputy Director of the Public Prosecution Service, Denise Smith, QC. The PPS also has several new managers including Paul Carver, QC, appointed by the Chief Crown Attorney in Halifax region, and Kathryn Pentz, QC, recently appointed as Chief Crown Attorney in the Cape Breton region. I very much appreciate the efforts of Nova Scotia's Public Prosecution Service and I'm confident they are well positioned to meet any challenges and opportunities in the year ahead.

 

            Now Mr. Chairman, allow me the opportunity to speak a little bit about the Office of Immigration and then I will speak about a couple of other things after that. First I'd like to discuss the 2015-16 budget for the Nova Scotia Office of Immigration.

 

            I want to begin with a quote - very nice, short and simple, but very deep in thought, "To immigrate is an entrepreneurial act." I wish that I had come up with that line. Unfortunately, Edward Roberts, the founder of the MIT Centre for Entrepreneurship said it first. That quote makes me think of my parents - two immigrants from Lebanon who came to Nova Scotia, determined to build better lives and find commercial success.

 

            Every day I meet Nova Scotians who possess the same work ethic, determination and drive - at events, on the street, standing in the checkout line at grocery stores, and anywhere and everywhere else I go. Immigrants are risk-takers and job creators. They bring global experience, new skills and ideas to our province. Enhanced immigration will push Nova Scotia forward. It will also make our communities more diverse and vibrant.

 

            Last Spring, Ray Ivany and the One Nova Scotia commission challenged every Nova Scotian to change the narrative, embrace new people, and adopt new ways of thinking. I'm so pleased to be able to say that we're making progress. We're opening new pathways. We're speeding up entry for skilled workers and international graduates. We're helping Nova Scotia employers fill their workforce gaps and we've increased the number of people who can immigrate to Nova Scotia.

 

            As you likely know, immigration is a shared federal and provincial responsibility. The Nova Scotia Office of Immigration is responsible for attracting, integrating and retaining immigrants; promoting a welcoming culture for newcomers; marketing Nova Scotia as an attractive immigration destination; delivering outstanding settlement service through a wide range of partners; collaborating with the federal government and other provinces and territories on immigration matters; and providing advice on immigration and support to other government departments.

 

            Since assuming office, this government has been charting a new way forward with respect to immigration. We've stepped up our game over the last 12 months, by creating a more robust Office of Immigration. We've developed more strategic immigration policy; we've improved business and stakeholder engagement; we've launched a new immigration website improving our outward face; and we've enhanced our programs and operations.

 

            From my perspective here are some of the highlights. Last summer the Premier appointed Wadih Fares and Colin Dodds as join chairs of the Premier's Immigration Advisory Council and tasked them with helping negotiate favourable immigration policy in Ottawa. In June we changed the Provincial Nominee Program to ensure that international graduates who want to stay in Nova Scotia have a way to do so.

 

            Earlier this year we launched a new pilot stream called Nova Scotia Demand: Express Entry, providing a faster route for highly skilled and educated candidates in response to labour market needs, and we've strengthened our partnerships with organizations like the YMCA and ISANS to deliver outstanding newcomer services across the province. That work has paid off; in settlement and retention numbers more immigrants chose to make Nova Scotia home last year than any time in the last 10 years. An impressive 2,661 newcomers settled in our province in 2014. The federal government gave Nova Scotia 700 individual nominations plus we requested and filled an additional 17 spots. Many of our provincial nominees also brought spouses or partners and children with them.

 

            More immigrants are also choosing to stay in Nova Scotia. The most recent Statistics Canada figures indicate a 71 per cent retention rate for immigrants that arrived in Nova Scotia between 2007 and 2011; that's great news for our province.

 

            Increase in our provincial nominee cap - we've also secured a 50 per cent increase in our provincial nominee program cap for 2015, through careful negotiations with the federal government. This year a total of 1,050 applicants will gain permanent residency through the Nova Scotia Nominee Program, up from 700 in 2014.

 

            Many of these individuals will bring family members with them, substantially increasing the total number of immigrants settling in our province. We will do everything in our power to hit those targets. We will also continue to lobby Ottawa for additional spots, working with the private sector and the Premier's advisors, and we will continue to encourage skilled candidates interested in coming to Nova Scotia to also explore federal pathways.

 

            The Nova Scotia Office of Immigration budget for 2015/16 - to fill those new quotas and keep the momentum going, the office is forecasting a total budget of $7.49 million. That figure is down slightly from our estimate of $7.95 million in 2014. The majority of those funds will be spent on settlement services through settlement grants and other contributions and our projected staffing level for 2015/16 is 27 FTEs.

 

            It is also important to acknowledge, upfront, that we had six staff vacancies for 2014/15 fiscal year. Most of those positions have since been filled by talented and experienced individuals who are ready to help the office meet its 2015 targets. Our team is stronger than ever and morally very high.

 

            Our next steps for the office - we plan to launch a new business stream in 2015. It will complement our existing pathways and foster entrepreneurial spirit. It's too early to talk about the specifics of our new business stream but our work is well advanced. We are currently negotiating with Ottawa and we will continue to engage our stakeholders. The principles of our new stream will also give the private sector better access to human capital. I want to assure you, Mr. Chairman, as well as all members of the committee, and all those following the proceedings today, our new business stream will welcome more immigrant entrepreneurs to Nova Scotia.

 

            The link between population and economic growth is clear: attracting immigrants with strong business skills will change our demographics and jumpstart our economy. Now is the time for action. We need to open our doors to individuals who wish to start, purchase, or actively manage businesses in Nova Scotia. However, we need a committed federal partner to make those plans a reality.

 

            We'll also keep taking an integrated approach to delivering settlement services. Organizations like ISANS and the YMCA are playing a critical role in helping newcomers adapt to life in Nova Scotia. They are doing important work and they deserve our continued support. The office will also keep challenging all Nova Scotians to welcome newcomers. As we've learned this year, small actions like inviting a newcomer into your home or place of business can have a big impact. Together we can and we will create more welcoming communities.

 

            The Nova Scotia Office of Immigration will also launch a new electronic processing system to replace our current, paper-based application process in 2015-16. This new stream will depend heavily on existing government IT infrastructure. Going online will also help us find economic efficiencies and speed up processing times. Last but certainly not least, our program staff will be working very hard to fill our 1,050 nominations. We've made progress, we will continue to make progress, and there's always more that can be done.

 

            Let me now talk briefly on the Human Rights Commission, which is another independent government agency under the authority of the Act. Under the authority of the Act, the commission focuses on two core business functions: resolving complaints of discrimination, and public education and outreach. Reforms have been made to the Human Rights Commission in terms of conducting its affairs. I've met with the current CEO and with some of the staff. We are continuing to work with the commission in consultation with the academics, and evaluation of experts, to evaluate the changes and ensure the commission is serving the people of this province the way it needs to be done.

 

            The Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act is another Act I am responsible for. This is an independent, arm's length agency that has mandates under Justice, Service Nova Scotia, Municipal Relations, and Health and Wellness. The Review Officer is mandated to oversee all access to information and privacy complaints in the Nova Scotia provincial public sector, access to information complaints in the Nova Scotia municipal public sector, as well as all access to information and privacy complaints relating to personal health information held by health information custodians.

 

            Finally, the Office of the Police Complaints Commissioner - this is also another arm's length agency. Its mandate is to maintain public confidence in our municipal police agencies by delivering judicious, timely, and impartial service to the public and to the police services in Nova Scotia. The office handles allegations of professional misconduct against municipal police officers in Nova Scotia. Allegations by members of the public are overseen by the commission and it also monitors investigations into internal disciplinary matters. The office can also order independent investigations into police misconduct. The commissioner determines whether a hearing before the Police Review Board is warranted and the board has the power to discipline officers with any penalty, including dismissal. The decision of the Police Review Board is final. In the calendar year 2013 the office opened 153 files.

 

            In my conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank all the individuals and organizations that have worked with me for the last year and who are helping Nova Scotians across the province in both Justice and Immigration portfolios. I look to the opportunity to answer whatever questions might be here. I will ask, though, a couple of things. I think I still have a couple of moments here, do I not?

 

            I noted that in the beginning I introduced all the staff who are with me but I also noted that not all the members of the committee were here so I'm going to do that again, just for the benefit of the members of the committee who came in. The reason I will say is this, I understand by the rules of the committee that staff is welcome to come with me but only two people can sit, one on my right side and one on my left side. But because of the number of agencies and departments and whatever that are under my portfolios, I don't know what questions I am going to get asked and who is going to be with me. For that reason, I would ask that you let me know - not you, Mr. Chairman, but the person asking the question - what the question is going to be in relation to, so that I can have the appropriate people sitting beside me to guide me as well.

 

            I'm just going to introduce again the members who are with me. On my left is my hardworking Acting Deputy Minister Tilly Pillay, or she will be my Acting Deputy Minister on the first of May; she is the head of Legal Services. On my right is my Acting Executive Director of the Office of Immigration, Suzanne Ley. In the room is Greg Penny, the department's Executive Director of Finance and Administration. I am joined by William Smith, the department's Executive Director for Correctional Services; Ken Winch, the Executive Director Court Services; Robert Purcell, the Executive Director of Public Safety and Security, and of course at the Attorney General I am joined with the very independent Chief of the Public Prosecution Service, Mr. Herschorn. With him is Denise Smith as well and also expertise from their finance staff as well. Did I miss anyone? If I did, I'm sure I will be told otherwise.

 

            With those few short remarks - I know I could have spent hours because I am really excited to be here - I really thank you for the opportunity to be here with you today.

 

            MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for that, minister. I am new to the Chair. My name is Terry Farrell, I am the MLA for Cumberland North and the Deputy Government House Leader. I believe we'll begin with the PC caucus with Mr. MacMaster.

 

            Do we have an arrangement that we will go department by department, just for ease of the minister's advice team that she has there?

 

            MR. ALLAN MACMASTER: I'll do my best. I think I can pretty well co-operate with that, in terms of providing a theme for a set of questions.

 

            MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thanks, Mr. MacMaster. Please begin.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My first question is about freedom of information and protection of privacy. Minister, I know that it is to provide independent and impartial oversight. One of the concerns we've raised is that these people should report directly to the Legislature.

 

            Minister, I'll ask you this question, how can it be considered independent and impartial, if employees are reporting to a minister of the Crown, as opposed to the Legislature?

 

            MS. DIAB: I'm not sure how to use the microphone, but what I'm going to do is turn it off when I'm not speaking, or what am I supposed to do?

 

            MR. CHAIRMAN: The Legislative TV staff operate the microphone. I'll do my best to keep an eye on the activity at your table and to call your name and when I call your name, the microphone will turn on. I'll do my best not to do that prior to you being ready to answer the question.

 

            MS. DIAB: Thank you very much for that question. The Freedom of Information Review Office is an independent body and as the Minister of Justice - and quite frankly as the Attorney General - I am reminded by so many of these independent bodies, when I have either semi-annual meetings with them or annual meetings or every number of months, they are very independent. I can assure you that I'm reminded of that all the time because there are a number of them.

 

            The Freedom of Information Review Office provides independent, impartial oversight of public bodies, municipalities and health information custodian compliance with access and privacy rules contained in the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy. The office provides really expert leadership for the effective administration of access and privacy laws through investigations, monitoring of how privacy and access provisions are administered, research, public education, providing advice and comments on access and privacy-related issues. They do report annually to the House of Assembly through the Speaker's Office, as you are all familiar with that.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I want to make a comment. I know last week the Clayton Miller case, there were reports from both the medical examiner, the head of SIRT, and the police complaints commissioner. I know the family didn't hear what they had expected to hear, but I wanted to thank you for the briefing that was offered and I wanted to thank them for their work on that case. It was something that I think was important to have completed for the sake of that family and the many people who have been supportive of them. I just wanted to make that comment about that particular aspect of your department.

 

            My next question involves the Public Prosecution Service. On Page 21.26 the biggest thing I notice about these line items is, in the forecast for this year that is just completed, there is a significant amount charged to other departments, but there is also an increase in cost over what was estimated for the previous year. Then if we come forward to the year that we're about to go in, we see that there is a much lower figure chargeable to other departments. Can you explain what's happening there? It's just something that I noticed in the numbers that was significant on that page.

 

            MS. DIAB: Can you tell me again the page number and what does it start with? What I have doesn't have page numbers, but we'll find it.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: This would be Public Prosecution Service, Departmental Expenses, and it would be under Gross Expenses, Less: Chargeable to Other Departments. In the Estimates Book it's Page 21.26, but I think you have different documents.

 

            In the year we've just completed, it essentially looks like a significant amount was charged to other departments, and this year going forward, that amount is much lower. I was just wondering what's happening there.

 

            MS. DIAB: I referred to that in my opening comments when I talked about the Public Prosecution. That was monies transferred as a result of the restructuring of the salaries that the Crown prosecutors received that dated back to 2009.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Just for clarification - I'm seeing Less: Chargeable to Other Departments and I'm thinking the Crown attorneys wouldn't be located in other departments. Can you explain that a little further, why it's stated that way in the estimates?

 

            MS. DIAB: Crown attorneys work for public prosecution; they don't work departments, so you're kind of asking me - it says department, I have no idea who wrote departments, but it's certainly not charged to departments in the sense that I think you're asking me.

 

            It's all money transferred because there was an arbitration case and they ruled that the Crown attorneys have to receive X amount of money. It dated back to 2009 and that was the dollar amount and that's the difference there. As a result of that, in case you come to that later in other parts of my Estimate Books, we had to do the same for Nova Scotia Legal Aid lawyers and we had to do the same for Justice lawyers, in terms of the dollar amount that that arbitration cased ruled that Crown attorneys must receive.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Perhaps there were some of the cost in booked in the last year was for retroactive wages owed and that's why the amount this coming year is not quite as high.

 

            MS. DIAB: Yes, you're correct.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Okay, good, thank you. The next item I'll move to is - and I do apologize if I jump around a little bit here; I will aim to try to keep questions based on themes. The next question I had was on Court Services, page 16.4 in the Estimate Book. I've seen the cost for Sheriffs increasing; the cost of Sheriffs has increased significantly and that may have to do with another case where there was a retroactive wage increase. But I'm noticing that line item, so that will be under Programs and Services, under the line of Sheriffs. It was significantly - well in last year it was estimated to be about $7.6 million, it turned out to be $15 million, about double that, and now this year it's just shy of $14 million. Perhaps you can provide an explanation of what's happening there.

 

            MS. DIAB: It's funny, a CBC reporter asked me the same question so I don't even have to look - I know exactly what you're talking about because I had to get that answer. The sheriffs were reallocated so that they are now under the responsibility of Courts, as opposed to - so if you look, if you add those two figures, Sheriffs and Justice Centres, there was a reallocation in terms of responsibilities so that they now report to the right kinds of - do you see what I mean?

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Actually that was my next question why the Justice Centre's amount was down so that answers that question. They're added together. Okay. Those are just numbers that jumped out at me in just looking at the line items in the budget.

 

            There is another one here, this would be under department expenses. Again, this maybe stuff that we just talked about that's showing up in a summary page here under Departmental Expenses. Operating costs for the department in 2014-15, the year just previous, were estimated to be $166 million; they came in at $195 million, and this year they're projected to be $168 million but a little lower there is an amount charged with other departments. This may be the same thing, just accounted for in another area of the Estimates. I will let you comment. That's on Page 16.2 of the Estimates Book.

 

            MS. DIAB: Twenty-nine million of that was the payment for the Nova Scotia Home for Colored Children. The remainder was the increased salary amount that was paid for the Justice staff lawyers.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, minister, and just to clarify, which lawyers? Would it be the Crown attorneys or is that another group of lawyers that are internal to the department?

 

            MS. DIAB: Those are the lawyers who work for the Department of Justice. Again, they are separate and apart from the Prosecution Service. That's completely independent, believe me - and also the Legal Aid lawyers as well. As I mentioned before, as a result of that arbitration decision, we have to treat them all equally and so that was the result.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, minister; that clarifies that for me. The next question I have is on Public Safety and Security on Page 16.8. The two numbers and I noted here, just a question; there is some debate over whether the province - and actually municipalities often speak about this - whether to have RCMP policing or to have a municipal police force. I certainly know that some services the RCMP offer nation-wide are, of course, available to the province and to municipalities, when they need those services.

 

            I just wanted to ask you, minister, do you had any thoughts on municipal policing versus RCMP in the province?

 

            MS. DIAB: In Nova Scotia we have a fine balance between our RCMP and our municipal policing. Actually what happened in that February incident showed that very well because both agencies worked together to solve that.

 

            If I talk about HRM here, Halifax, we have an integrated police service that is seen across Canada as a leader in innovation in what it is doing. We have both RCMP and Halifax Regional Police working together at an integrated service and doing a lot of good things. We are seen as leaders and as a model for all policing agencies across the country.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, minister. Another item under Public Safety and Security is the budget for Security Intelligence Management. It is a small budget but I thought I would ask. There is a sizable increase; perhaps it is just another person who has been hired on there. Could you give some background on what that is about and some of the specific activities they are administrating for the department?

 

            MS. DIAB: The Security Intelligence Management was brought in after 9/11 and that was to ensure that Nova Scotia can be informed of classified intelligence and for Nova Scotia to take leadership when the case was warranted. And you're right, it was to hire an administration position.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: That clears that up. I'm going to switch now to red tape, and I know every department in the government has been asked to reduce red tape. Have you identified any red tape in the Department of Justice, in terms of perhaps processes that are slowing things down or costing money that could be saved with the elimination of red tape?

 

            MS. DIAB: We have been reviewing our internal processes everywhere in the Department of Justice to ensure that there are no duplication of efforts going on and we're continuing to do that.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: One of the recommendations in the Broten report was that a core central group of key senior officials across government should be trained in lean practises, which should be a continuous improvement of services and that would include things like efficient regulation and cost containment. I can appreciate, minister, this is something that is fairly recent, and there is certainly another minister tasked with this report but, as I understand, a responsibility has been given, in certain situations, to all departments to make some improvements in these regards. Has there been a group of senior officials identified in the department who will be responsible for this recommendation?

 

            MS. DIAB: At Justice, we have a senior management team that meets regularly and that includes - actually it includes a lot of the people that are with me here in this room: the Executive Director of Court Services, the Executive Director of Public Safety, the Executive Director of Correctional Services, my deputy minister, the Executive Director of Legal Services, and the Executive Director of Finance. That's exactly what they meet to do and discuss on a regular basis, in fact I see the door closed a lot of the times, that's exactly what they're doing.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Minister, have they met about this? Do they have any goals, in terms of specific goals about how changes could be made in the department that might save time or money in the department itself or perhaps even out amongst the various divisions you mentioned?

 

            MS. DIAB: They have met many times and will continue to meet many times. Yes, there has been a lot of action taken - part of which is reflected in the budget, quite frankly, in the reduction of the satellite courts that was very challenging. That was a decision that was not taken lightly and it was a decision that was taken to help us come to more efficiencies in the province as a whole, collectively, also in the consolidation of the Dartmouth and Halifax Small Claims Courts and Night Courts and in the Justice of the Peace Centres as well. That will result in savings but more than savings, we are hoping that it will increase efficiencies, that it will move us to faster access to some courts.

 

            We're also talking about video conferencing a lot. That is something we've started and we'll continue to do more to reduce the number of people who need to attend courts, whether it's for arraignments or trial dates, it will cut a lot of money from travel costs because a lot of our costs are for travel for sheriffs, police, judges, and lawyers.

 

            It is my hope - and I know we will because we are constantly discussing and seeing how we're going to do them. We're doing our best to work as much as we can with our stakeholders, our Judiciary, our Crowns, our Nova Scotia Legal Aid, the Barristers Society, the municipalities, many different sectors in the province that deal with corrections, with courts, with policing.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, minister, I appreciate those specifics. I have one question on the video conferencing. I was listening to your remarks earlier and I got the sense that perhaps there is more interest in people who are incarcerated if they have a court date that they would, instead of being transferred to the courtroom by the sheriff's office, they would use video conferencing services instead. Is that one of the initiatives that you have been using or that you plan to use more?

 

            MS. DIAB: It is an initiative that we are planning to used more, yes, as we try and do the best we can in the areas in Nova Scotia we are able to do this. As I said, it's not just money, although that's what we have to try and do, we have to do more with less, but it's also for safety and security. As you know, the more we have to move people around, the more risk of something not going right, so yes.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Certainly, thank you, I recognize that. One of the other recommendations from the Broten report was that there be a costing analysis, that each department should be required to complete a cost analysis associated with all fees.

 

            I also think about going beyond fees and just processes in general, how much things cost. Has there been any action taken to determine the cost of activities in the department? I think about processes. You've mentioned one with the closure of the satellite courthouses - you're going to reduce the travel time of some of the people involved in those cases. If they're going to one location, it's probably going to free up more of their time to be able to get more cases put through the court system. I see that as an example that you've provided; there's probably money being saved there.

 

            If you did an analysis of the cost, which you may have, to come to that conclusion to take that action, those are the kinds of things that I'd like to ask about. Has there been an effort to determine the cost of various processes within the department? I'll try to explain that better if you want to me to but I'll let you comment.

 

            MS. DIAB: In relation specifically to the satellite courts, yes there was. The savings are largely two fold. One, which was a good substantial component, is travel costs for judges and staff to go to the different satellite courts. It was also leasing costs because none of the facilities where the satellite courts are located are owned by government and so there also a saving in those leasing costs as well.

 

            As I said in my remarks, the satellite courts take up 1.5 per cent of our caseloads in the province and the numbers seem to be declining. If you have a more specific question I'd be happy to try and answer that for you as well.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I guess without pointing to anything specific, are there any other areas of the department you plan to look at? I mean, everything the department does costs money to do and takes time to do. By looking at each activity of the department and determining the time taken and the cost to provide the service, you start to get a picture of everything being done as efficiently as possible. Are there ways that maybe we could be doing things with technology to save money, to save time? The more money and time that's saved, the more resources available.

 

            I often think red tape is not always something to be feared, and I'll give you an example from other department. In the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, we were looking at Special Move Permits where you have a very large piece of construction equipment that needs to be moved somewhere in the province and it's coming back three weeks later. Well they're looking at this now but they were requiring the contractors to come back and go through the same procedure for the return trip of the equipment. When it might be a very high piece of equipment, well the overpasses haven't changed their height in three weeks, as an example. It was kind of redundant for the government to have to be processing paperwork a second time for the same move. So it can be win/win situations.

 

            Based on the Broten recommendation that there be a costing analysis done on the departmental activities, are there any other specific activities in the department that you've highlighted to cost for the purposes of trying to reduce those costs or improve things in the department?

 

            MS. DIAB: That is exactly what the management team at Justice has been doing and quite frankly, it's wonderful that the Broten report raised it but we were doing it anyway because we had no choice but to start looking at that very closely within each of the courts and in the corrections and everywhere else.

 

            One example that I'll give you that Justice is now is doing is, we're looking at all our agencies, boards, and commissions. I noticed when I took office, they come and you have to appoint and do whatever, but there is no consistency - everything is different. Some of them have no rhyme or reason in the sense that they're all so different. You're always dealing with something different on an everyday basis so we're looking at that to try and make them consistent because that takes a lot of staffing time to go through all of that. Each board or commission have different timings, different whatever so that's something that we're looking at.

 

            That is just one example. It might be one thing out of a whole department but there is a number of things that they'll be looking at as well, some of which may result in different changes. I probably don't know where that will go so until that time comes, it's really difficult to put it out right now.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I'm going to leave red tape and I think from now on in, we maybe revisiting some of the topics I had questions on earlier, but they're in pretty clear themes going forward here.

 

            The next subject I'd like to ask questions about is maintenance enforcement. I know the department has reviewed maintenance enforcement and there is a report due, I believe, this month. Can you give us some background on the program review itself? I know, generally speaking, I'm sure it's designed to improve maintenance enforcement and to improve the collection of money for families who are owed that money by a spouse, ex-spouse, or parent. Could you province some background on this program review: what it's meant to examine, its effectiveness, the cost, and what you're hoping to see in terms of benefits to clients?

 

            MR. DIAB: As you know the program started in 1996 and years later, as a result of a 2007 Auditor General report, they recommended that we needed to do tremendous amount of work to continue, so that we can do a lot of work for our Nova Scotians.

 

            I personally was not in government, I wasn't a MLA, but as the member knows in 2013 the office physically moved to New Waterford. I remember that as a lawyer practising, frankly - that was a huge move. There were many different issues at the time and subsequently coming into this position and having had the opportunity to go actually go to New Waterford and meet with the director and the staff, came to realize that there were a lot of staffing issues. I believe there were 70 per cent positions vacant at that time.

 

            No doubt there were some moral issues and so on and that was in 2013. It's taken a bit of time but I am confident, because I have had the opportunity now on a number of occasions to speak to the director, that really good work is happening that they are now at a level where there is staff there; they're using the staff to ensure - they have to train the staff. It wasn't easy.

 

            Part of the review that we're doing is called client services advisory group and I can tell you that, to my knowledge, we are the only government in the country that has done this now. We have gone to get lots of feedback, from anybody and everybody. The consultation group is made up of recipients, payers, lawyers who use the system, the maintenance enforcement staff.

 

            They collected a lot of information, a lot of data, a lot of concerns. I haven't received it yet, and as I said to you in the House, once I do receive it, I'm going to go through it but there is no issue with making it public. There are probably things there that you would know about, that I would know about, but I'm sure there are going to be things that hopefully we have not thought about. To get us to a point where we can actually serve our clients better - that's what it's all about - is to ensure that they get the service that they really need, when they register for these services. As I said, the numbers of staff has now been rebuilt and I'll let you ask if you have anything else on that.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I think there are about - and I don't know if this is in an ideal world - I think typically, historically, there have been about 500 cases per worker. I know there are a lot of challenges in getting payments made. Perhaps this is something for the report to provide, but do you have some kind of sense of how many cases there should be per employee? What is reasonable in terms of them being able to be effective in going after the people they have to go after to get payments made?

 

            MS. DIAB: That's a very good point, and I have two things to say. One, that's part of what the report will be looking at; and two, as a lawyer who practiced for 21 years, very good question, but it really depends because you're going to have some cases that are really straight forward, and it really doesn't take much. You're basically ensuring that money is coming in and going out. You're going to have others that are in between. Perhaps you may lose touch with whatever and you need to make a reminder call or send a nice little letter or do something. Then you're going to have the really difficult ones where they're going to be challenging. You're going to encounter a lot of difficulties - maybe difficult, maybe somebody moved out of the jurisdiction, meaning the province, at which point it really becomes really difficult, or it could be persons who change jobs and don't notify you. There are so many different reasons.

 

            Some of it is the same to what I would compare - and it's not a fair comparison, but kind of the same if you're talking courts and if you're talking payments of money and so on - like civil litigation cases where somebody is owed money, where a debtor is owed money from another individual. Some of them you'll collect very easily, others have to go to execution, others you have to go the third step with going to the sheriff to try to find them, and then there are others that you will never be able to collect and never be able to find. It really depends, but that's part of what hopefully - they should be able to give us some recommendations on that.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, we will await the report to see if they have recommendations in that regard. The other thing I think about, and maybe this is something that the report will make recommendations on - will there be any new tools available to the people who are working in maintenance enforcement as a means of enacting pressure, putting some heat on some of these people who are choosing to forego their responsibilities? Is that something we should wait for the report on as well or are there any ideas within the office right now that are being worked on, in terms of new tools that maintenance enforcement workers can use to get the money that is owed to clients?

 

            MS. DIAB: The legislation provides a lot of tools and a lot of mechanisms that enable the officers. The first thing that they are doing is to ensure that they are using all the currently existing tools that are available, in the best ways they can. But yes, we will also be looking to see what, if any, new tools we need to come up with. There are a lot of tools currently available in the legislation.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Actually you answered one of my other questions here. Who is doing this review? It is probably something I should be aware of myself; it may have even been made public. Who is doing this review of the Maintenance Enforcement Program?

 

            MS. DIAB: Well as I said, obviously it's led by the Department of Justice, it's our money. We put a call out on the website and we sent letters and notified as many groups and people as we could. We asked them to apply to want to be on this client consultation group, actually. It's made up of Maintenance Enforcement Program people; it's made up of private sector lawyers; it's made up of our own Justice support lawyers; it's made up of clients, payers, recipients.

 

            We put a demand out, asking people to tell us if they would like to be on it and also to send us recommendations and send us whatever they'd like the group to look at if they weren't physically part of the actual group.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Just for the sake of transparency, minister, in this report will it include the submissions of those groups, say as an appendix to the report, so that if people did contribute to the discussion, they can see that their recommendations have been put on the record at least for consideration in the report?

 

            MS. DIAB: The answer is yes, if the submissions were from the public and they want them public. There could be submissions from people who don't want us to make them public and they want to remain confidential.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, minister. I think that's good because if the report came out and said something that a group didn't agree with, they could at least say, if they wanted to publicly, they could say that well yes, here was our position; we submitted it for consideration by the department. I think that's important, given that it is a review by the department.

 

            There was a law professor who said that the whole maintenance enforcement system is underfunded. I know the nature of maintenance enforcement - we're dealing with people who have shown not to want to take responsibility. They've proven themselves by their actions. None of us can change that directly. There was a law professor who said the system is underfunded. Do you believe it is underfunded?

 

            I know there are always going to be challenges getting money from people who are trying to hide. Minister, I'm sure you get a lot of calls in your constituency office as well as I do, from people who are struggling to get money that is owed to them. Is the system underfunded? Do you agree with that or are there other things that work here?

 

            MS. DIAB: I can't answer that. I honestly have no basis to answer that question. I can tell you that if we had lots and lots of money everywhere, you can put money in so many things, and this could be one of those things. But I can't really - I have no basis to answer you on that question. I can tell you that the latest statistics from Canada showed that Nova Scotia program was mid-range among the provincial jurisdictions across the country, in terms of payers making the regulator monthly payments.

 

            As far the national level and as far as the different provinces, we're in the mid-range. I'm not sure if people are aware of that. We can certainly do better. I've never been a mid-range person.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, minister, that helps to provide some perspective on that.

 

            I'm going to move to a new subject. It's one we've asked some questions on, and members of the current government have asked questions on in the past, and it's on ankle bracelets. The member for Cape Breton-Richmond had once advocated for increased use of ankle bracelets. Has that member spoken to you about increasing the use of ankle bracelets? 

 

            MS. DIAB: I'm going to give you some information on electronic supervision, some of which you may know already, some of it you may very well be interested to hear. From April 2014 to March 2015, 198 offenders were on electronic supervision; they were on GPS and radio frequency units. Approximately to 7,000 to 10,000 calls were made to offenders on voice verification from April 2014 to March 2015.

 

            The electronic supervision coordinator and the training team made presentations at the regional conferences in June 2014 to all probation officers demonstrating the benefits of electronic monitoring along with the review of the products available. Regional training occurred across the province in July 2014 to approximately 47 probation officers. There is quarterly electronic supervision training team meetings occurring via video conferencing with representation from each region.

 

            Voice verification is now offered through a new vendor, which brings all electronic monitoring under one platform. Online training was received by all probation officers across the province on the voice verification new software.

 

            Soberlink, which is a mobile breathalyzer, was tested and demonstrated to probation officers across the province. Current numbers for electronic supervision include 44 on GPS units, 16 on radio frequency, and 40 on voice verification. The electronic supervision training team attends staff meetings across the province and efforts to enhance the number of offenders on voice verification and provide training support.

 

            So all of that is being done and will be done. There is no new monies in the budget for what you're asking for but this is all the good things that we're doing in the province.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Minister, I wonder if you could tell us who is eligible to receive a bracelet.  

 

            MS. DIAB: A risk assessment is done on offenders by probation officers to determine if they should be receiving that device.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I know the Minister of Health and Wellness has decided to reject the use of GPS tracking devices for forensic mental health patients. Did he consult with you about that decision?

 

            MS. DIAB: We actually had a number of meetings and brought in experts in the use of that device as well who actually showed us physically, both of us, how to put it on, how to wear it, whatever.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I know I have a sense of the reason why the Minister Health and Wellness doesn't want to use those devices for forensic mental health patients. Was there any discussion around - if they're not going to use those devices, does that mean that these people will not have the same kind of freedom to get, for instance, day passes, to be outside of the mental health facility that they are in?

 

            MS. DIAB: I think you're well aware that really is the Department of Health and Wellness, not the Department of Justice, but I do know that they will be assessed. These people are being assessed by their health providers in those hospitals, on a case by case basis; I personally know that.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: The reason I ask this question is because it gets batted around back and forth between Health and Wellness, and Justice. We have an incident in the not too distant past where a mental health patient became a client of the Department of Justice, in terms of a very serious crime they committed. I will ask the Department of Health and Wellness that question but that's why I wanted to ask it here because, while they maybe forensic mental health patients unfortunately, in the not too distance past we've had incidents that have not turned out well, not only for the victim in that case but also for the mental health patient.

 

            My initial question was about the member for Cape Breton-Richmond if he has spoken to you about this matter and I'm not going to press that because I don't think you would want to answer that anyway. He did advocate for greater use of these devices when he was in Opposition. He's in government now and we're not hearing him advocating for it anymore. I'll allow the minister to answer.

 

            MS. DIAB: I want to assure you, honourable member, that a lot of thought and a lot of time was spent analysing that question with myself and the Minister of Health and Wellness, and both of our staff. The situation you speak of is very sad, and these are challenging situations. A lot of time was spent trying to ensure what the best way is to move forward.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I have one last question. Minister, to your knowledge, do police and correctional staff believe these devices are effective to the point of perhaps expanding their use? They obviously believe they're effective because they're being used but going forward, are we going to see more of these devices or are we going to see the same amount in the next few years?

 

            MS. DIAB: We believe it's effective. We're using them as best we can - the voice verification and the GPS system - we're using them with the number of dollars that we have, as best we can.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Minister, just further on that, is there an acknowledgment that these devices, while they do cost money, and its prohibitive to buy more of them and to implement more of them - is there a sense that they're actually saving money, in terms of keeping an eye on the people that they watching, and saving money in terms of people who are not obeying the restrictions placed upon them when they're outside of a facility, and saving the money that it costs to go and find them when they are on the loose, for lack of a better term?

 

            MS. DIAB: They're definitely less expensive than housing offenders in a facility. We know the dollar amounts of what they cost; I don't have it with me though.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Just quickly, minister, given that there is a savings in that regard, is there a plan to expand their use in the future?

 

            MS. DIAB: Currently, at the moment, we're using them. Putting people or letting people, out a lot of times it really depends on what they were in for, what their sentences were for. A lot of times it's not up to the staff to determine if they can go out or not, it's up to the judiciary, it's up to judges, it's up to - am I right.

 

            MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. The hour for questions by the PC caucus has elapsed and we'll move on to Mr. Wilson for the NDP.

 

            HON. DAVID WILSON: Thank you minister and your staff for being here. I am pinch hitting for our Justice Critic, our Leader; she's also our Finance Critic who is over talking with your colleague, I believe, across the way so I've agreed to step in there.

 

            Definitely over my time as the MLA for Sackville-Cobequid in the last almost 12 years, a lot of justice issues come through our office and often I find myself, and our staff find themselves, trying to facilitate supporting our constituents.

 

            I'm going to start on the Budget Estimates book, around Departmental Expenses, epically Grants and Contributions, and then after that go into Programs and Services, more specifically on Court Services.

 

            Under the Departmental Expenses, and I'm on 16.2, I see a line item here that indicates Grants and Contributions, and hopefully you have that same page. I notice an increase in the Grants and Contributions. I know we are provided information with all the Grants and Contributions from last year. It goes through everything from Annapolis County Cops 'N Kids associations to transfers to departments and that, but under this line item here I noticed an increase from last year's estimate to this year's estimate.

 

            Could you give me a little bit of background on what grants and contributions fall under that one, and why we see a little bit of an increase, not a huge increase? What grants and contributions fall under that line item, on Page 16.2?

 

            MS. DIAB: The single largest item is the legal aid certificates. We had to increase them and they hadn't been increased in 10 years - in about a decade.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: I would assume there are grants that go to organizations and groups throughout the province. Would that be under that line item or would that be found somewhere else in the budget?

 

            The reason why I'm asking this - I know you're getting some information - is that we've seen from other departments, specifically Health and Wellness, that many organizations are seeing a dramatic drop, I would say, in grant contributions in the upcoming budget. I believe in Health and Wellness we are seeing somewhere near the vicinity of a 23 per cent decrease to many organizations in the grants they receive.

 

            I'm just wondering if that is a direction that Justice is taking with reducing the amount of grants that go out to organizations.

 

            MS. DIAB: We haven't reduced any grants. It's something that is ongoing, though. We will be looking at each and every one that we give, to ensure they are still meeting the objectives and the mandate they are supposed to do, but no, there's nothing that has been decreased this year.

 

            I will note that my understanding of the Justice Department is we're not a heavy granting department, like some other ones.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: Thank you for that and I understand that. I would think there would be a consensus of the departments across government, if we see such a reduction in Health and Wellness, that you would potentially be asked from Treasury Board to look at your grants and contributions and reduce them, I would think similar to other ones.

 

            You said there's no reductions this year, that's fine, but you said you were doing a review. Are you doing a program review of all grants and programs that fall under the department?

 

            MS. DIAB: We are, we started it and yes, we are definitely continuing it. It's definitely ongoing all this year, pretty much line by line, everything that we're doing.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: When would we expect that to end? Is this review going to be for next year's budget that you may make changes? Are you going to make that public and are the organizations that do receive funding under Justice going to be made aware of any changes that may happen?

 

            MS. DIAB: The review is ongoing, and yes, it will be reflected in next year's budget. We will be doing as best we can to inform the groups that may be affected.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: Thank you for that. I understand through Health and Wellness that there was a decision made that the Department of Health and Wellness had to look at the programs and the funding that goes out there and a reduction. I believe, it's our understanding, the decision came through Treasury Board that indicated certain areas in government services would be asked to reduce. Just for clarity, do you sit on Treasury Board as a member?

 

            MS. DIAB: I do not, no. We were all, though - it's public knowledge, I'm not breaching any confidentiality, I don't think. Everybody is aware in the province, if they have been listening, that all departments were mandated, were told, or were expected to go through a program review to find deficiencies, to reduce spending, and to find efficiencies wherever we could and we are still mandated to continue with that.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: I understand that, and I know being a former minister, especially in Health and Wellness, I completely understand the need to look at where efficiencies can be found. My concern is that over the last week, even today in Question Period, we question the minister quite often on the reductions of some of the programs and some of the organizations that receive funding, I'm just a bit concerned that the government has gone ahead with those reductions but it doesn't seem like Justice was one of the targets to look at funding reductions.

 

I know you've indicated that you're looking at it over the next year but Health and Wellness, I would assume, may have been told to look at it for this year. Is that the case that you were just not advised that you needed to find the savings this year, and that you might have had to speed up the reviews of the program, and you've been given an additional year to look for those savings?

 

MS. DIAB: No, no, that's not what I said. All ministers were instructed to undergo a program review with all their staff in each of their respective portfolios. We were able to find some but we are continuing to, and we need to find more. A large part of our increase, though, are - like Nova Scotia Legal Aid makes up the majority of that figure that you're seeing. Some of these, like Nova Scotia Legal Aid, it is what it is; it's been like that for a decade. I know from Nova Scotia Legal Aid, I've met with the executive director on many occasions, she is doing her upmost to do more and provide more services, more efficiencies, with the resources she has because she understands the challenges the government is facing.

 

MR. DAVID WILSON: By no means am I saying Legal Aid shouldn't be one that you continue to support. You can use the same argument in Health and Wellness with acute care - costs of acute care delivery in the province are what they are. It's driven by the use of our public, but the Health and Wellness Department has been able to finding savings within their grants and contributions. You had indicated that there are so reductions this year. Is it safe to say you were unable to find savings this year so far with grants and contributions, or has that review not been completed yet?

 

MS. DIAB: It's nowhere near completed.

 

MR. DAVID WILSON: Okay, I'll take that for now. I will move on to Programs and Services. I want to talk a little bit about something that definitely has been in the media more recently and that of course is courts and court services. When I look under the same, just above that Departmental Expenses by Object, it is Programs and Services and it indicates Courts Services.

 

One of the areas that I've been very attentive in looking for and trying to find out to make sure it's protected would be the Mental Health Court. The cost of that court - would that fall under that line item or would it be under another heading number. So for Court Services, is that the cost of all the courts in the province?

 

MS. DIAB: No, if you go to Page 16.4, I don't know what page you are on, but those are identified as specialty courts. It's a different line, do you see that? The Mental Health Court is a specialty court in the province so it would fall under that category.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: I do notice a small drop and I'm just wondering what would contribute to that small drop. If I'm not mistaken, I think it might be around $10,000 or so. Is there any indication of why there would be an estimated reduction in that budget?

 

            MS. DIAB: We transferred a position from the Domestic Violence Court to Victims Services division.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: Definitely by no means am I thinking you're cutting anything there, so that's fair. I know, since the introduction of the Mental Health Court, it has worked extremely well for serving Nova Scotians and those individuals who find themselves in the legal system who may have a mental disorder or find themselves diagnosed with something that may contribute to whatever they're being charged with.

 

            Would you agree with that? Do you feel that the Mental Health Court has been successful in the province? If so, do we foresee in the near future expanding that service so that more Nova Scotians can have quicker access to it? I believe right now it's just the court in Dartmouth at the Dartmouth Professional Centre, I think it's called. I'll just leave that and get a comment from the minister.

 

            MS. DIAB: The Mental Health Court does sit in Dartmouth, in the provincial court there. There is a judge assigned for that court. The team has dedicated professionals assigned to it and it includes two mental health professionals, a social worker, a nurse, a probation officer, a Crown attorney, a duty counsel from Nova Scotia Legal Aid, and the judge, of course. The team consults on an as-needed basis when matters come before them.

 

            It has been five years, and I'm not sure if you'll recall, but a number of months ago we actually held - I don't know if it's called a press conference or whatever, and we released the five-year document for the Mental Health Court. Essentially, I believe what that document found was that in an urban setting like metro where the population is so diverse, the model works well and the allocation of resources seems to be justifiable.

 

            Outside metro, a more collaborative approach is needed to leverage existing resources. I'll give you an example. In Kentville we started the Court-Monitored Mental Health Program, and also the Drug Treatment Program. Those particular programs have been championed by community support. Had it not been for the community support and local judge - so there, basically the Annapolis Valley District Health Authority with Capital District and Community Services, court, the police, RCMP. They're all working together. Basically we're using existing resources to deliver service that meets the population in that jurisdiction.

 

            They're working well. It is working for the people who are receiving these services. We don't have enough studies yet to determine as a case-closed scenario, in terms of where to go from here. We do know at the present time, there's no plan to expand that particular court setting into other jurisdictions in the province.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: I was going to come to the next question. I know I've heard from people in Cape Breton who would love to have this type of court there so that it's a little bit closer to the population base on Cape Breton Island.

 

            Are you able to provide me with the number of cases over the last year that went through the Mental Health Courts? Is that something that is provided publicly or are you able to provide that number to the committee? Maybe over the last two years, that way we can judge whether we see an increase in the number of cases or a decrease.

 

            MS. DIAB: There is a report that has been published, actually, that anybody can access. It talks about the number of people who have been referred to the Mental Health Court, the types of crimes they committed, whether it was a man or a woman, the percentages, and all that. So yes, definitely we can get you a copy.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: Thank you for that. I'm hearing some positive things and I think I'm reading you right and understand that I think you believe that it's doing its job and it's a positive thing for the province. I encourage the government to continue to support that and hopefully in the near future we'll see an expansion of that into Cape Breton. I think it is important to have that.

 

            I want to go to something that was just announced and of course that is the reduction or the elimination of some of the satellite courts that we have in Baddeck and Port Hood and a few other ones that were top of mind. I know in a response that you gave to one of my colleagues, you indicated there is a cost. I don't know if you said significant, but a cost to have the judges and the lawyers travel to these satellite courts. I wonder if you can indicate, do you have the data or analysis on what the savings will be from the elimination of those satellite courts?

 

            MS. DIAB: We do, yes, I believe it was provided. The annual projected saving is $482,000 for the five satellite courts.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: What is really the bulk? You indicated earlier that you just rent space, so you don't own any of those satellite courts. What makes up the bulk of that $482,000? Where is that saving going to come from?

 

            MS. DIAB: The bulk is made up substantially of two items: one is the leasing costs, secondly transportation costs.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: Now did you provide those figures, that breakdown? I don't need it right now but if you could provide it for me that would be fine.

 

            The concern I have, I know in the answer you gave in the Legislature when my colleague asked you during Question Period, is that as I indicated, the cost is for those judges and for the lawyers to be here. Has there been any thought on the cost for those individuals who will have to travel now? I'm specifically concerned around individuals, especially victims of crime, who often have to appear in court. Was there any discussion on the impact they may have? And specifically in Cape Breton where you may not have a lot of cases being seen in Baddeck, for example, but by eliminating that, the travel for those victims of crime or for whoever needs to appear in a court is significant. It's not like closing a court in Lower Sackville and I have to drive to Halifax, it's the time and the travel time for this is significant, we are talking hours. I'm wondering - did that come up in any of the discussions? Is there anything you can offer for travel, especially to the victims of crime who have to appear in court? Are they able to recoup travel costs through any program? I'm wondering if the minister could make a comment on that.

 

            MS. DIAB: Thank you for the question. You are completely right, transportation is a challenge to many Nova Scotians in many parts of Nova Scotia. It's not just to get to court but it's to go to many other things that they go to.

 

            You mentioned Baddeck, for example. I'll just tell you that, as an example, that court sits less than three times a month and it has its challenges; it is not accessible. What we are doing is video conferencing so we are hoping - and we've already started this and it will be rolled out more - is to have matters heard by video conference to avoid people from actually physically having to come to the courtroom.

 

            I also know that this will be phased in between now and six months so the staff will be working really hard with those people who are affected, to ensure that they will make whatever arrangements that would be more appropriate for them. There's a complete transition team that is on the ground that is actually going to these communities so they can help with all this.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: I'm glad those individuals who will be impacted by this will hopefully be able to gain access to some of those programs. I think it's important to recognize the distance some of them will have to go.

 

            I want to go now to Page 16.8. It will be Programs and Services under Public Safety and Security is where I'm going to go. I'm really just going down some of the line items that we've seen a reduction in from estimates of 2014-15 to 2015-16. The first one I noticed is Contribution to Municipal Policing. There is a small reduction. I'm wondering if the minister could indicate why there is a reduction for the Contribution to Municipal Policing. It's the second line item underneath Administration.

 

            MS. DIAB: Thank you for that question. Some of the municipalities have indicated they want to reduce their policing.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: So they indicated they wanted to reduce their policing, I don't know any of them that would say we don't want any money. Maybe they want to reduce their policing but how does that translate into reducing the budget this year? I would think they would try to keep the budget they have - maybe a little bit more on that one.

 

            MS. DIAB: You are going from estimate to estimate, are you? Discussions are ongoing with the Justice Department officials at Public Safety and the local municipal forces. The way it works is if the additional officer program in a particular area is reduced, then our contribution is taken away. We fund those additional officers, under that program, so if that position no longer exists then we don't fund it.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: If we scoot right down to the RCMP Policing Contract we see an increase. Is there any correlation between the reduction in the municipal policing and an increase in RCMP policing? I'm not by any means saying that that is a bad thing, coming from a community that has the RCMP, I am very much in support of it. Over the years there have been attempts by the municipalities to switch that up. That could be just contract commitments made under the RCMP contract, which I'm okay with. It stands out to me that there is a reduction in the municipal policing but an increase in the RCMP Policing Contract.

 

            MS. DIAB: First there is no correlation between the two at all. It is different personnel, let's say. Second, the province is under contractual agreement with Canada, with the federal government, and as result of that there were costs, salaries, and cost of pension that we had no choice but to, obviously, do what we're told in that particular situation. That's exactly what that increase is. One thing to note, which will be somewhere else in the budget, two-thirds of that exact amount is recovered by the municipalities.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: Thank you, I understand that. Right below the Contribution to Municipal Policing is Crime Prevention, and of course I'm estimate to estimate; there looks to be a reduction of $150,000 in Crime Prevention. Has the program been cut? Why is there a reduction of about $150,000?

 

            MS. DIAB: The reduction is due to the reduction in federal monies that we've received over a three or a five-year program that we contractually have with them. In the Department of Justice there are so many agreements between the province and the federal government, and those agreements are all to do with improving the lives of Nova Scotians, but it all means that we get monies from the federal government. The money goes into this category and then I'm sure it goes out somewhere else in the budget.

 

What you see there is a direct decrease from specific funding, like CeaseFire for example, it was supposed to be for three years, and every year is a different amount, so this coming year it's a lower amount than it was last year, so it's a direct correlation of less funding that is being received from the federal government.

 

MR. DAVID WILSON: I don't know if you can see my book here but I was thinking you might be able to read what I'm going to mention next and that was the CeaseFire program, I was going to lead into it. I know that that was announced in 2014 and it was supposed to be a three-year program so I assume from that answer that there is a reduction each year for that program.

 

I know that you and the government had put out a news release in April of last year around the CeaseFire program, which I'm interested in and definitely asking questions on behalf of my Leader who has vested interest in the program. I believe, if I'm not mistaken, there are three areas in HRM that have this program up and running, and that's in Preston, North Dartmouth, and North End Halifax.

 

            I just wanted to ask a few questions on that: was that reduction built into the initial announcement of the program through the federal government, and if so what is the - I know it was a $2 million announcement - was that $2 million prorated over the three-year program?

 

            MS. DIAB: Specifically about the CeaseFire program - I think I may have said three, it's actually five years and yes the dollar amounts were built in from the beginning. The total amount for the five years was $2,088,176 to be exact, and each of the five years, the dollar amounts were specifically built in to what they are supposed to be.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: When you announced that program, it indicated the $2 million towards the program from the federal government. Is there any provincial money that goes along with that or is it solely funded through the federal government? Often we know what happens when the federal government brings in new programs - and I applaud the government for moving forward on this - is that they've finally got out of that program and the government, whichever government, provincial government, territorial government, has to make a decision on if they'll continue to fund that.

 

            The $2 million that was announced for the five-year program - are there any provincial matching dollars or was there a requirement from the federal government that provincial money goes into that?

 

            MS. DIAB: That dollar amount is from the federal government. What the provincial government contributes is in-kind contributions. We have a consultant that manages the program and there is also a community justice agency that is involved in that and that's an agency we provide money to as well.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: I know, if I'm not mistaken, it's an adopted program from Illinois. I know going through some stats and going through some media coverage, even last year, the end of April 2014 in The Chronicle Herald, there was a Statistics Canada story that Halifax was the worst Canadian city for gun-related violence. This program has definitely shown in other jurisdictions that it has had a positive impact on reducing gun violence. I'm just wondering if the minister has some more recent data that would indicate a similar outcome here in Halifax.

 

            MS. DIAB: I should also note that we, the provincial Justice Department, pay just over $200,000 ourselves, over the five-year period, to the University of Illinois. It's $200,000, American to the university.

 

            I was at that announcement with the federal minister at the time, and the air of optimism that was in that room, from the community that was present, was really priceless. There were mothers and grandmothers who came and thanked us because this is going to save their sons and grandsons. It's still in its infancy, but we are hoping for good results, and that's what I can say on that for now.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: I would assume part of the program would be to continue to track the number of incidences of gun violence. I know often Statistics Canada, for example, won't provide that information for a number of years into the future, so I would assume that that's part of the program. I know I ask a few questions, usually, when I ask them; do you have more recent data that shows a reduction in gun violence in HRM, specifically in these three regions that this program is being utilized?

 

            MS. DIAB: It has been my experience for the last 18 months that at any point in time where there's an agreement with the federal government that involves receiving money that there has to be a lot of reporting. This is certainly the case with this one, so yes, it is being tracked. We can get you that information but it has been reduced, the initial estimation of that.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: Yes, I'd appreciate that information. By no means are we here trying to criticize the program. We are very optimistic. I believe it was back in 2012, under the government of the time, the government I was with, that initiated the consultation around the province and specifically in HRM, around what we can do. That was the start of adopting this program out of Illinois to bring it here to Halifax. I'm very glad to see that the current government followed through and continued on with that.

 

            Some of the statistics we see, especially around North America, really the program has had a positive impact. I know in Chicago, for example, shootings declined by 34 per cent in a three-year period where they've had this program. Baltimore, for example, has seen a 56 per cent reduction in homicides in just one neighbourhood that implemented this program. That information would be great and I would appreciate having that.

 

            I'm going to move now to an area that definitely is of concern with me and that's around correctional facilities, more specifically the men and women who work within Correctional Services here in Nova Scotia. I believe we have a number of facilities. I want to talk a little bit about what services are available for those workers and if there is any funding towards ensuring their safe environment.

 

            I'm going to go down a road that talks about the environment they work in and some of the things that correctional officers have to deal with on an ongoing basis, and specifically around PTSD, for example. I've done a lot of work throughout my career, not only in my private career but afterwards, trying to move forward and support Emergency Health Services personnel get the support they need.

 

            When doing the research, something that was very evident to me but which is not often talked about publicly - because I think what's really catching the attention of our nation right now, especially those who find themselves in combat roles around the globe and military personnel who are diagnosed with PTSD. Interestingly enough, when you look at the data that's available, military personnel are somewhat at the bottom percentage of personnel who find themselves diagnosed with PTSD.

 

            Interestingly, the profession that I think has the highest percentage of diagnosis of PTSD are correctional officers. There are many reasons for that. Just the environment alone that these men and women work in, no wonder there is a high percentage that find themselves having some trouble dealing with their work environment. The events they have to see on a daily basis - examples are: suicides, attempted suicides, completed suicides, murders, hostages, being taken hostage, a potential for shootings and stabbings, physical assaults, riots, slashing, and the list goes on and on. Since you have been minister, has there been any effort from your department to support correctional officers who find themselves potentially diagnosed with PTSD and to try to improve the working conditions that these men and women find themselves in?

 

            MS. DIAB: Thank you for that very, very important question. We have some tremendous men and women working in our correctional facilities. They work in difficult and often strenuous situations.

 

            Let me tell you a few things that we are doing in terms of training for our staff in that area. Correctional Services staff receive training in mental health, including recognizing emotionally disturbed persons. To date, 689 staff have completed this program.

 

            We also have a training program called Understanding and Responding to Mental Illness. To date, 180 staff have completed this program. We have a critical incident debriefing program available, so any time, after any serious incident, we have trained personnel to meet with them and offer them any help.

 

We have an Employee Assistance Program. In the Fall of 2015 we will have two staff to be trained as trainers in the program called The Working Mind. This program is specific to managers and deals with the topic of workplace mental health and wellness. This training will be delivered to all Correctional Services managers. The results will be managers will have a better understanding of mental illness and the impact it has on our workforce, and skills and strategies to help the staff return to the workforce with support.

 

I know we also have a committee that is made up of the Workers' Compensation and the Nova Scotia Government and General Employees Union to help reduce absenteeism and the stress of staff conditions. Correctional Services is also hiring social workers and bringing probation officers into the facilities to build strong release plans and improve connections, while this is all for the offenders as well.

 

The Workers' Compensation Board that I talked about is a collaborative approach, as I said, with the Nova Scotia Government and General Employees Union, and Correctional Services to create a safer and healthier workplace for the employees. The project was started in 2013 and it's expected to take four to five years. It focuses on employee engagement to motivate staff, create shared ownership, and promote a safety culture.

 

Numerous safety workshops have been delivered to Occupational Health and Safety Committees, supervisors, and the project called results team. We've developed and drafted an injury management plan. There have been 75 safety talks, three- to five-minute briefings on safe work practices that have been developed and are delivered to staff on an ongoing basis at the Central Nova Scotia Correctional Facility and at the Cape Breton Correctional Facility. This same program will soon expand to the other two facilities, Southwest and Northeast Correctional Facilities.

 

            I'll tell you one thing that really struck me is a couple of days ago I saw in the newspaper - and I hope we have it here because it struck me that I said I'd like to keep it - there was a quote from Joan Jessome. I do have it. I'm just going to quote the newspaper article. She says that the relationship isn't perfect but things are improving. Her quote was, "I've been around for awhile and this is the first time I've seen a genuine interest by the employer to have things addressed on the safety issue." I think this was two days ago, April 19^th.

 

            So whatever else you have, let me know if you have any other questions on that.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: Thank you for that. I know that often, as I said, correctional officers don't seem to come up in the discussion when we talk about emergency responders and I consider correctional officers to be emergency responders. Interesting enough, they have one of the highest percentages of workers who might be diagnosed with PTSD and it can get as high as 25 to 30 per cent, which can be significant.

 

            You mentioned that you have a committee that works with the WCB to try to reduce the absenteeism in the workforce. Often when someone is diagnosed with PTSD, it is not related to one single event. I don't know if you are aware of some of the attempts by myself to get some changes to WCB benefits that will support our emergency workers like correctional officers, firefighters, police officer, paramedics, nurses, and those who work in children's services who often find themselves seeing these traumatic events.

 

We do have coverage under WCB for these workers if they are diagnosed with PTSD but it's limited to the fact that they need to be diagnosed by a professional, which nobody is disputing, but they have to indicate the specific traumatic event that has led to their diagnosis and it has to be within a year of that incident that they are diagnosed that they can gain access to the benefits under WCB.

 

            The challenge is that, as I mentioned earlier about the events of correctional officers - and I'll deal with correctional officers because that falls under your department - they see attempted suicides, complete suicides, murders, hostage-taking and many, many more disturbing things that I won't get into here.

 

            The problem we're seeing now with the data and more information around PTSD is the fact that it's not the single traumatic event that is causing most of the problems with these workers, it's the cumulative exposure of these events, so over a length of time, normally a career, they find themselves being diagnosed later on in their career with PTSD.

 

            I'm going to make an attempt here - first question, are you aware that there is a limitation around the benefits under WCB and would you be willing to support the expansion of that, so that the cumulative exposure to traumatic events can be part of benefits given to these workers if they find themselves diagnosed with PTSD?

 

            MS. DIAB: I will acknowledge that our first responders, whether it's correctional officers, firefighters, police officer - and as you said we can go on - they work in tremendously challenging situations. They work in occupations that many Nova Scotians or Canadians or people just cannot work under and they are amazing people.

 

            With respect to the Act itself, I haven't really analyzed that Act. I haven't reviewed it. I don't know what the sections are in it. I wouldn't be able to make a comment on a piece of legislation that I haven't really reviewed.

 

            MR. DAVID WILSON: I can appreciate that. I know you're a busy minister. You have a lot under your portfolio, but I hope that you go away from these estimates and ask some questions with your staff so that potentially we can move towards changing this policy.

 

            I'll be very upfront; I learned about this last August and I was unaware that it didn't cover everything. I assumed like many that PTSD was covered under WCB and it had never been brought to my attention. I was Minister of Health; I'm a former paramedic, and it wasn't until last year. I think there is more attention being placed on PTSD in the workforce and I think there wasn't a lot of data collected over the years and there really wasn't any organization in Canada that tracked PTSD. Ultimately what I'm trying to do is get support for people so that they can take some time off work to go and get that professional help.

 

            The flip side of that is the fact that those who are diagnosed with PTSD often turn to drugs, alcohol and unfortunately suicide. Last year in Canada alone there were 27 first responders that we know of who committed suicide. This year alone, since January, there are reports indicating that there have been 10 first responders who have committed suicide in Canada. That information is coming through an organization called Tema, which is out of Ontario. It was a paramedic who had witnessed the murder of a young lady and he found it hard to deal with that and actually eventually left the profession and did something else and realized that he needed to do something to support emergency responders so started the Tema organization. They track information and they're trying to educate the public and those employers and governments on the importance of ensuring that support is there for individuals.

 

            I hope you walk away from estimates and maybe ask some questions. I'm more than happy to meet with you and talk with you. This by no means would break the bank. Yes, I understand there would be additional costs, if more people gain access to WCB benefits, but I think it's well worth it because on the flip side there is a high absentee rate, if someone is not able to go to work and needs a break, they're taking their sick time for it. So I think there could be some benefits. If someone is able to walk away, just to get that help, and hopefully come back to the workforce and reintegrate into working.

 

            I know I'm running out of time quickly, but maybe just a question. Along with the data and talking about this, the biggest hurdle, I think, is the stigma of PTSD. Myself coming from a paramedic background, when I went through schooling you just dealt with this stuff. It was a suck-it-up attitude - go have a beer or something and talk about it and you'll be okay in the morning. That mentality is still there and it's still there in corrections.

 

            I'm wondering - it takes the leadership to try to break that stigma down to say, if you're having a hard time there is no weakness in going and seeking out that help. Is there anything that has been going on over the last little while to try to break that stigma? If not - I'm okay with that - but would you commit to ensuring that discussion happens so that the men and women who work within corrections see from the leadership that we're okay with this and we're here to support you and hopefully break that stigma of what a mental health illness is?

 

            MS. DIAB: We have a critical incident debriefing program, as I said, and that is available to all employees in the correctional facilities. There is also the Employee Assistance Program, and in fact they're all encouraged, at any point in time that they have an issue that they'd like to talk about or address. I mean we've got an excellent management team, some of which we sought out, and we're happy to have with us in this province. Our current executive director here to my right has been a champion in those facilities. When he came on board - it has only been a three-year period - tremendous improvement has been done within that time frame. He comes with an extensive background and we are so lucky to have him.

 

I can't tell you how proud we are to have people like Bill and to have the management team that we have at each of our four correctional facilities. I've personally met them and they continually meet as a management team together to address all concerns in the facilities. The first thing on their mind is to ensure that their staff is well equipped, that they have what they require to do the right job.

 

The other thing that I guess I will mention - how much time do I have left?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: About 30 seconds.

 

MS. DIAB: We are truly lucky in this province to have the team that we have that is leading our correctional facilities, and I don't say that lightly. I've seen the amazing work that they're doing and I've actually visited a number of those correctional institutions myself.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. We're now going to revert to the PC caucus.

 

The honourable member for Inverness.

 

MR. ALLAN MACMASTER: Just a note on time, I think I have an hour, from 5:48 p.m. to 6:40 p.m.?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: You do and the end time for the session is 6:56 p.m. Providing that those are all the questions, there will be very few minutes for the minister to sum up if that's the intention today.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Okay, I think that will be the intention and I will come back to you on that.

 

Minister, I just have one more question on the ankle bracelets. When we left off I know you had mentioned that it's really up to the judicial system for the judges to decide, I see somebody shaking their head there. I guess what comes into my mind is the tools need to be there for the system to use and I know there are about roughly little over 100 devices of various kinds that are used to track people. I asked about future expanded investment, can you expand on that? In your last answer I had thought that you were indicating that it's really up to the judge who's handing out the sentence or the conditions for the person involved. Can you comment on that?

 

MS. DIAB: I stand to be corrected. These particular situations are not ordered by a judge; it's up to the probation officers to make individual assessments on a case-by-case basis, when they speak with each and every offender, in terms of what they believe to be the best way to monitor the offender.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: One other question, do the probation officers see these devises as being effective? Have they recommended that more of them be purchased, perhaps to save the department money?

 

            MS. DIAB: No, we haven't had any recommendations.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I want to move on now to the Burnside jail, the Central Nova Scotia Correctional Facility. Minister, I know that facility has had a lot more occupants than it was designed for and I know the new jail in Pictou is relieving a lot of that pressure. I think the Burnside jail is now at 77 per cent capacity. That being the case, we could see an improvement in incidents at that facility. I know we've raised them in the past: people getting injured, both inmates and people working in the facility as well, so we would hope to see a decrease in incidents there.

 

            I know the statistics would show that between January and July 2014 there were 105 assaults. The year previous, in 2013, over that same January to July period, there were 57 assaults, so there was a spike in 2014. Can you give some background as to why there was such a spike in incidents at the jail. I presume that things were pretty overcrowded in 2013 as well. I'll let you comment.

 

            MS. DIAB: I've had many questions on that over the last number of months. Let me just start by telling you a couple of things that I have come to really learn about our Nova Scotia facilities in relation to other correctional facilities in Canada. In Nova Scotia we have a zero tolerance policy. I may have said that before but it doesn't really strike you until you really look down and understand what it means. It means that if an offender spit, they count that as an assault. It means that if an offender takes his sock and throws it across the room, they count that as an assault, if it is directed at another person.

 

            It doesn't matter on the level of severity of that assault, it is still counted as an assault. When you see the number of assaults, it could be anywhere on the severity scale, from as low as - and I don't know if throwing a sock across the room, directed to a person or to actually assaulting somebody and causing them physical harm.

 

            At our facilities, to protect staff, we have been increasing the incidents - they all have to be reported and that's stressed on everybody that it has to be done.

 

            I will read you some of the statistics figures that I have here. The offender assaults at that facility - the average number of offender assaults has risen from 0.4 per day in each of 2011-12, 2012-13, and 2013-14, to 0.5 per day in 2014-15. The total assaults in 2014-15 were 194 as compared to the year previous, which was 157. So there has been a rise, but again, I think you have to put it into perspective: every single action against another individual, in a not so nice way, regardless of what it is, is deemed to be an assault.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I guess two questions come to mind. Is the increase in incidents a result of staff doing more reporting now that it is being stressed to report these incidents, which would be minor in comparison to some of the incidents we've heard about? That would be one question. Part B to that is, was the same zero tolerance policy in place in 2013? Because if it was - and going back to my first question - unless it has to do with staff becoming more diligent in reporting these incidents, it doesn't really explain why there was such a spike in 2014. I'll let you answer.

 

            MS. DIAB: It's a combination of both factors. We've been encouraging staff to report and be more diligent in that and it was also a result of having many more offenders in the facility.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: This sets up my next question, but it complicates things. Given that there are so many incidents being reported now, do you categorize them into ones that might be considered minor in terms of somebody throwing a sock at somebody, and something more serious, like what we heard recently about a gentleman, I think he's suffering brain damage as a result of an assault? If you do categorize them, that helps us get a better understanding, if there are serious events happening there, and if those are going to go down now that the jail is down to 77 per cent capacity and there is less volume of prisoners in the jail. If one can assume that incidents will go down now the jail has less inmates, but if those serious incidents persist then we have to call back into question what's happening there. I'll let you comment.

 

            MS. DIAB: We do have a category of offender on offender assaults that require hospitalization, yes, and then the total assaults of 194, as I said, in last year are made up of two categories: offender on offender assaults and all other offender on staff assaults. We break them down that way. We have hospitalization and everything else seems to be in one other category, but that's broken into two different divisions, whether it's offender on offender or offender on staff. Internally we categorize the seriousness of the assault.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: You mentioned internally you categorize the seriousness, is that something that you put out to the public?

 

            MS. DIAB: It's not something that we would publicize but this year it was subject to a FIOPOP so it was released.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: If serious issues persist at Burnside, would you be open to conducting an independent review of the facility?

 

            MS. DIAB: Thank you for that question, I know you wrote to me a couple of months ago and I provided you with a response but I'll just share with you a couple of points here. Some of them may be the same as that response; others may be a bit newer, because it was few months ago.

 

            Since the new facility opened up - well, first of all, let me just say that we are taking a proactive approach toward improving staff and offender safety at the facility, and the budget clearly indicates we've put it out and we're investing $4 million to renovate and introduce the direct supervisor model at that facility. We're also investing $2 million for upgrading security and $140,000 for new protective gear.

 

            Now, since the new facility opened in February that has allowed us to add 150 more offender beds to our capacity, thereby releasing the pressure that was built in Central Nova Scotia Correctional Facility. For the month of March 2015, as I said earlier, the male offender counter was 77 per cent at capacity, weekdays. Weekends, obviously we have more because we have people on remand and they're going in and out. The female offender count wasn't a cause for concern, historically.

 

            What we have also done in the last two weeks, as of April 1, 2015, we've introduced video court on a permanent basis to introduce efficiency, safety, and cost effectiveness amongst all our justice partners. Staff have been working diligently to ensure that we have a sufficient relief complement, and we've held back-to-back competitions to staff what we needed to continue to staff.

 

            We have a new recruitment practice that started a year ago and is with respect to physical fitness and security background checks. We know that it's working well and candidates recognize the core competency requirements. Before that we just didn't have that. We have increased program opportunities for offenders including - and I'll mention a couple: Options to Anger, which is an anger management program; substance abuse; education; the creative writing; respectful relationship, which is domestic violence for men; the WOOF program; vocational training, examples would be laundry and maintenance; chaplaincy. We're putting focus on case management planning and targeting risk factors that bring offenders into conflict with the law, and we're hiring social workers and bring probation officers into the facilities to build strong release plans and improve connections between the facilities and the communities. So there is a lot of work going on.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I can only image how challenging that work environment would be for people involved there, the people they're dealing with.

 

            I know people are concerned when they hear about incidents at the jail and I know there are reports that talk about what is happening. I think the points you are making today about a lot of these incidents may not be as serious as people would believe them to be. I think that helps to put things in perspective.

 

            I guess the last question I would ask on this, the reports that are provided on incidents are often a one-page report. Is there some reason why the department is not more open about some of these incidents, the serious ones? Some of the comments you are making today throw some more light on the situation and I think they help people to understand what is really going on there. I don't know, I think the more information the public has about these matters, the better. But that said, maybe there's some reason why the department doesn't want to release details on some of these incidents. I will let you comment on that.

 

            MS. DIAB: Mr. Chairman, I really want to thank the member for that question. I've been waiting for you to ask that and I haven't really received it from you at Question Period, and actually it's probably not fair to answer it at Question Period because we have only a few seconds to answer and you can never really say what you want to say most of the time because you are constrained by the number of seconds. You'll probably say a little blurb and don't really get a chance to say the full information that you really want to say.

 

            You bring a very, very important point and one that I know you personally would like to have an answer to, and I'm sure most people would as well. It's a very good point. I'm hoping, with the answer I give you, you'll at least have a little bit of satisfaction in terms of what we do, why we do what we do, and that we actually do more than people think we do, if you know what I mean.

 

            The Department of Justice has the most comprehensive and transparent disclosure policy in Canada. This is not me saying that. I will table and I will give you a copy of what I'm talking about in a minute. Correctional Services was recognized by the Toronto Star as being very progressive in its approach to disclosing information concerning public safety.

 

            Often you mention this one-pager but when I receive them, or the department receives them, they are much more than a one-pager. The policy itself on the website dictates or tells us to put what is absolutely necessary to be disclosed. The reason is many-fold: we are careful not to disclose information that could jeopardize facility operations by disclosing confidential operational guidelines; we are careful not to disclose information that might impede capture of an offender; we're careful - many times it also involves a police investigation so we cannot compromise any of those investigations. Many times and more so than people would ever imagine, certainly more than what I would have imagined before coming into this post, we can't disclose information that could be protected under the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act or the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

 

            The Toronto Star - I don't know if you can table here, whether you can or not, I am happy to give it to the member there. It's a couple of pages. You can take a look at the quotes they talk about where they refer to Nova Scotia on a page and they say: Other provincial governments also say little or nothing about mistaken releases. Nova Scotia is a notable exception. Under a policy adopted in 2011, the justice ministry there informs the public of all "major incidents" involving prisoners: improper releases, escapes, deaths, big drug seizures, even car accidents involving inmate-transport vehicles. When a Nova Scotia man - anyway, it goes on.

 

            Across the country we are seen as one of the most comprehensive, open, and transparent, with respect to our disclosure policies. We do respect - we have to respect the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act. We cannot reveal many things for confidential information, for fear that it would jeopardize public safety or compromise a police investigation, and we take all major incidents seriously and public safety is truly our main priority.

 

            When I talk about corrections, what an eye-opener. I extend the invitation to you. I don't know if you've had an opportunity, I know you've been here much longer than I have in terms of being a member of the Legislature. In your role as Critic for the Justice Department, I don't know whether you had any opportunity to talk to the staff but I extend that invitation, if you would like to do that. We have some of the most capable, knowledgeable, experienced staff in the world that work for our correctional facilities, being led by the gentleman sitting right here next to me.

 

            I don't know if you have had a chance to visit any of the facilities. I don't know if that's possible; there are probably places where we're not allowed to take you but if you'd like to see that, it may give you a bit more insight. I certainly would have had none of this insight 18 months ago, and the things I have learned since then, I've really learned to appreciate, to respect, and to recognize the hard work that goes on 24 hours, seven days a week in Justice. Whether it's courts, whether it's corrections, whether it's the police, the public safety, there are so many levels that I can't begin or end except just to be so grateful for the men and women who work in our province.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, and I will take you up on that offer to visit the facility at some point, when things slow down here at the Legislature. I appreciate those comments as well.

 

            I'm going to move on now to - well we have a lot of debate on limitations of actions. There is still a question about why the department had the positon it had about amending the legislation. Can you offer some comment as to why, initially, the department did not feel that historic survivors of sexual abuse and assault should have the same right in a Civil Court of Law to go after the person who did that to them?

 

            MS. DIAB: I'm actually grateful that you asked that question because I know it's one on your mind and it's easy for me to answer it here, now with you, where I'm not so constrained again with the 60 seconds. What I will tell you is what I have said over the last number of months, again there is nothing to hide, there is no secret: staff made a mistake in reviewing the jurisdictional search, with respect to that one piece of information to do with retroactivity of sexual assaults. None of us, and certainly not me, knew that it was a mistake; we had no idea.

 

            Generally, and in a lot of legal matters that we deal with as lawyers or that lawyers deal with or go to court, it's not commonplace that you would have retroactivity. The Act itself had been studied over a number of years before I came into this office, in terms of various things and deadlines they wanted to put and various reasons. Many stakeholders gave input into that. That specific point had never been brought up before, in terms of the historical nature of it and in terms of making it retroactive.

 

I went through Law Amendments Committee and people thought it was a good thing to do. We all did, not realizing that there are other jurisdictions that have gone, historically; to your credit, you found otherwise. The unfortunate part is - and I will very honestly, candidly - I didn't understand what you found. I know you tried as best you could to convey that but it didn't click in because I was receiving 10 per cent of your message. I didn't understand what it is you were trying to say.

 

It may very well have been that you didn't have all the information either in the beginning, I don't know, but I certainly had no idea what it was you were referring to. I only realized, after the whole thing was done, that a mistake had occurred.

 

A couple of things too - I knew at the time that the Act cannot be proclaimed right away because there are many sections that affect so many people in Nova Scotia going to courts for so many different things. We needed to have time to train lawyers. The Nova Scotia Barristers Society needed time to do what it appropriately needs to do with the lawyers and with self-represented litigants.

 

We knew it was not going to be proclaimed. All along we thought it might take us close to a year to proclaim it, so there was really nothing lost in the sense of that. I knew it wasn't going to be proclaimed; it was going to take a number of months, up to a year to do that.

 

When the mistake was found, and we realized that it was a mistake, I very frankly and openly, as I've done all my life in whatever I've done in all my life, I said a mistake happened. I took responsibility as the minister because as a lawyer in private practice, 21 years, if my staff made a mistake, I'm at fault, whether I know or I don't, that's the way I work, that's the way it is. I said, we will review that, we will look at it, and if appropriate we will amend. As a lawyer in all conscience, having the training that I've had all my life, I cannot say yes or nay without looking at, especially - put yourself in my position - especially what happened the last seven days, or I don't know, it felt like forever but I think it may have been only a week.

 

That last week of the Legislature, I was put through a lot and I didn't know why, and that's fine, that's the way it goes. For me to have made a decision on the spot, in all conscience, being able to go to sleep, which I couldn't anyway, I couldn't do. I said we would look at it, and we knew we were coming back to this place. The only reason why I wouldn't come back to this place is if I had been killed or injured or if I had left, I guess, because certainly the Premier wasn't going to make me resign over something that could have easily been corrected.

 

Again I don't know, did I answer your question? If you have more that I forgot - if you wanted me to answer anything else on that I'd be happy to do that.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, and it wasn't something I enjoyed doing either but at the time we weren't seeing the government moving on the matter and it was quite clear to me, and I was trying to make it clear to everyone, the option existed to extend the retroactive rights. When we weren't seeing any movement, we were doing whatever we could to make the case for it. We were desperate because we didn't see any sign of a change.

 

One of the questions that one of the survivors had asked was: was the person in charge of doing the research on this taken to task for it? I can appreciate a survivor being concerned about that because if their situation hung in the balance, and their situation was going to be compromised, they weren't going to be able to go after the person who assaulted them in a civil court, one could understand why they would be very concerned about finding out who the person was that was responsible and wanting there to be - and rightly so - some action taken in that regard.

 

I know you've basically answered that that has been dealt with internally and I don't really expect you to say anything more on that. I am just glad that the issue is fixed now.

 

The other question I have, is the department concerned now about the possibility, and is there a contingency fund set up, if the province is found liable for matters that involve the Limitation of Actions Act?

 

MS. DIAB: There is no contingency fund set up and I don't believe there is any concern on that, at this point.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Just for clarification - when was it really determined that there was an error in the legislation? Was it after the bill was passed or was it sometime before that?

 

MS. DIAB: The last few days, or that time frame, it was pretty much a blur in terms of what happened first, what happened second, and what happened third. What I can tell you is information was coming in dribs and drabs and I didn't understand the full information until the whole thing was completely over.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Recognizing that there is no contingency fund, and I can't predict the future, so just to confirm: there is no feeling like there is any risk to the department for - and I mean, I guess you made the point that the legislation has now been fixed so there has not been a lot of time has gone by since, but there is no risk perceived by the department for any cases that might come before a court, which would have to do with Limitation of Actions.

 

MS. DIAB: The bill is still not proclaimed yet, so the old law still exists in relation to all matters coming before courts, regardless of what they may be, that rely on that specific legislation, one. Two, I mean I don't know what I can tell you, if I wasn't a lawyer I wouldn't be able - but in equity and in common law, people can go to court regardless of that Statute. People can file. In any case, work is happening right now to ensure that the appropriate people receive notice and are trained and so on so that we can get that implemented.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Moving on, I just have a question in general. I think of the issue with the health unions, recently, and their contention that they were going to take legal action against the province. Is there a contingency fund at the Department of Justice for costs associated with actions taken against the government? Would that be something found at the Department of Health and Wellness or does it come out of general revenues of the province, should it happen?

 

MS. DIAB: There is certainly no reserve in the Department of Justice, that I knew, but I'm also told if and when such reserves would ever be undertaken for any litigation cases, regardless of what they may be, against the government, it wouldn't be held in the Department of Justice, it would be held centrally.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I'm going to move on another topic, and that is the Acadian riding dispute. What will the government's position be as this case moves through the court?

 

            MS. DIAB: I believe the honourable member knows that it is before the courts; we've requested the Court of Appeal to provide us with a reference, which means guidance to the province in terms of what to do. We would have to be guided with what the court comes up with.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Is there an estimate on the cost of all those procedures to the government?

 

            MS. DIAB: We don't have an estimate but we do know that going through this route, which is why we worked really hard to have the parties all agree to go through this reference route, which by the way is the first in Nova Scotia, I believe, in a constitutional kind of basis, is the most cost-effective way that any kind of case can proceed. As I said, I believe it's the first time in Nova Scotia that we would send a reference.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Looking at another case, the Joellan Huntley case, what is the status of that case now? You recall she was the individual who was seriously injured in a car accident a number of years ago and the Department of Community Services was going to proceed with clawing back some of the awards she had received from the insurance company, to pay for her care.

 

            MS. DIAB: That case has been settled outside of court. I believe that's public knowledge.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Minister, do we know what the amount was that the settlement totalled?

 

            MS. DIAB: We certainly would not know. I certainly would not know, no. I don't know if I heard in the media or somewhere that there is some kind of confidentiality agreement on that. I wouldn't be surprised if there was. Normally that's how these things go, but no. I would not know the amount, no.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Minister, just to clarify that, you mentioned before, when there are settlements, it comes out of a central line item for government, it doesn't come through the Department of Justice.

 

            MS. DIAB: No, it wouldn't come out of Department of Justice.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I want to move on to Court Services and I know you gave a pretty good description in your opening comments. One of the things that was mentioned, in terms of the closure of these satellite courts, was that justice could actually be sped up for some people. Does the department have knowledge of the average time it takes for someone to go from a first appearance in a criminal court to having a decision on their case, just an average time - are there average times for cases?

 

            MS. DIAB: I'm sorry, can you ask that again because I didn't do a lot of criminal law in my life but I do know that the question is a little bit complicated. I'm not sure what you're asking. I know in criminal matters there's police, some of them have numerous appearances, some of them go before they even end up in trials, there are so many different - I'm not sure of your question, I'm sorry.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Minister, I'm sure there are great variances in all these cases but is there an average length of time that it takes for someone to go from their first appearance in a court, to having a decision made on their case? I know there are different types of cases; does the department keep statistics on that or is it just completely wide open?

 

            MS. DIAB: I'm told that there are published figures, nationally, by the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I'll make sure I take a look at that, I appreciate the reference. There were some other questions I had; minister, in your introduction you spent some time on this and it answered some of my questions. One concern that was raised - and I don't know how relevant this is but I'll let you comment - if these satellite courts are now closed, people who have to appear before the court have a longer distance to travel. Is there any expectation by the department that that extra travel that they're required to make will result in more failures to appear before the court, more bench warrants, or more work for police?

 

            MS. DIAB: There is no expectation that that would happen. Typically most people comply with court orders.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Minister, could you comment a little more on the night court operations in HRM and how they will be consolidated. I know you had mentioned that it is going to be for four nights per week and there are no jobs lost. I guess they're being consolidated in one location in Halifax and there are some efficiencies perceived with that. I'll let you give some background on that.

 

            MS. DIAB: Actually that's a very good question. As a user of both courts in my previous career, I'm familiar with both of those courtrooms and particularly night court. Night court currently operates both in Dartmouth and in Halifax. It operates four nights a week in each of the two courtrooms. Typically it goes Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday; they don't sit Fridays.

 

            The matters that are usually heard in those courtrooms are summary offence tickets and contested peace bonds, also Small Claims Court.

 

            Many times the docket isn't full on those nights but they still sit four nights. To accommodate the consolidation from Dartmouth, the dockets in Halifax will be increased and they'll all go to Halifax Provincial Court on Spring Garden Road. It will take several months for that to happen. There will be no job losses because we have one person in charge of supervising both anyway, and she's on Spring Garden Road already, so I would think her life is going to be much easier, to manage one courtroom setting as opposed to two.

 

            We also have some issues in the Dartmouth Night Court, in terms of security issues and so on, so this is going to make it much safer for people to come and use the Halifax courtroom.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I apologize for being a bit distracted there but I was catching what you were saying. One issue that was raised to me by law enforcement sometime back was their access to justices of the peace. I noticed you mentioned their after hour service will continue. I know sometimes they have to come in from around the city into the city, distances of perhaps an hour or more away, to see a justice of the peace. Can you offer some comment on if things are improving in terms of if police need access to a justice of the peace, if there is some improvement in that access or will it at least be the same as it has been?

 

            MS. DIAB: The service is maintained; there is no cut in the service at all. The difference is instead of going to a presiding justice of the peace, they will now go to the Provincial Court and have a judge issue that, or we also have staff justices of the peace who work business hours.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Maybe these are too detailed questions right now but what about in the case of after-hours? How efficient is that process for law enforcement so they're not spending their time trying to track down a justice of the peace when they might have other matters that they have to attend to?

 

            MS. DIAB: After hours and on weekends the service is maintained as it currently is. At the moment there has been no change to that whatsoever. They still have access to those presiding justices of the peace after hours and on weekends, 24 hours.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: My last set of questions - I think I have about seven minutes left and I think there is a handful of minutes after that, minister, perhaps about another eight minutes. I don't think there are going to be any further questions so it will give you an opportunity, if any members opposite have questions or give you an opportunity to give some closing comments.

 

            Just to set things up for the last few minutes I have, I wanted to ask some questions about FTE numbers in the department. Perhaps just some summary questions. How many FTEs were reduced through the budget process?

 

            MS. DIAB: We had 19 FTE reductions.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: How many of those were unfilled vacancies?

 

            MS. DIAB: All of them.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Just to clarify, and perhaps that is the answer, but just to make sure that I have asked the question and it has been understood: there could be vacancies that weren't filled; there could also be positions that were FTEs that were not vacancies; may I confirm that they were all vacant positions that were eliminated?

 

            MS. DIAB: They were all vacant positions.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I guess in that case no actual people were laid off.

 

            MS. DIAB: No, we didn't have any layoffs.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I realize those positons were vacant; how many of the 19 would be considered management positions?

 

            MS. DIAB: There are 4.5 management, one lawyer, 13.5 bargaining unit.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I just have one last question, what would the savings associated with those layoffs be? Was there a number the department calculated for that?

 

            MS. DIAB: They were not laid off but the savings was $1.2 million.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I would like to thank the department and all the staff for being here today to answer questions. This has been helpful for myself and of course we don't often get to go into this level of detail in Question Period so it is appreciated.

 

            Mr. Chairman, with that I don't have any further questions. I know we're approaching the end of the day. That concludes our questions for the Department of Justice and I believe also for the NDP caucus as well.

 

            MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I took that from the fact that they've withdrawn from the room. With that, minister, you have 11 minutes to make a short summary and possibly present a resolution, if that was your plan. That is my hope.

 

            MS. DIAB: I understand my colleague on my right has a couple of questions for me.

 

            MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jessome.

 

            MR. BEN JESSOME: Thank you for being here and thank you for stepping up to the plate on a number of different files. We work together on a regular basis and I think I ongoingly underestimate everything that gets done under your roof so my sincerest sympathies, I guess, at times.

 

            I just had a couple of questions and I may have missed it when the PC caucus had asked it initially, I'm wondering with respect to the report for enhancing maintenance enforcement, is there a firm date on when that report is to be made public?

 

            MS. DIAB: Thank you to my colleague sitting there. Your presence in the House of Assembly actually gives me confidence and energy to continue with the job at hand that I have been given. I really want to thank you for all the support that you have shown throughout the last many months.

 

            In terms of responding to that question, there is no firm date on that. I did ask the question and the recommendation, work and everything that goes into it is being analyzed so that it can formally be put into a report. I've been told that I should expect to receive it in about a month's time.

 

            MR. JESSOME: That's all for me, thank you.

 

            MR. CHAIRMAN: Would you like to make some very brief closing remarks, minister?

 

            MS. DIAB: Sure. How many minutes do I have?

 

            MR. CHAIRMAN: You have nine minutes in total to do your remarks and resolution.

 

            MS. DIAB: Thank you very much. I really appreciate all the questions I received from the members around the room and the opportunity that I was given today to be able to respond to some of these really important questions. These are questions that many people across the province are asking; even those who are not asking them, they're certainly thinking about them.

 

            It's seldom that we, as ministers in my position, are given an opportunity to actually respond and have a chance to really explain some of the important things and work that is going on across the province. I find that many people - especially when you're in the Legislature, which is why it's always nice not to be in the Legislature all the time - but sometimes there is a lot of cynicism or more negative than positive. People like to look at things in a different way.

 

I have had the privilege of sitting in this chair and really - for somebody like me who was born in Halifax, but whose parents came here from another country and who was taken - I left Halifax at the age of two and grew up in Lebanon, had my elementary education there, and came back to this beautiful city and province, not knowing how to say the word hello in English, and to have gone through junior high needing to learn to say that in order to complete the first few years when I came back, and being introduced to so many great people back then that helped along the way in the educational system.

 

            I always reflect on the very first principal that I met in Grade 6, when I came back. I went right to Grade 6 and for those of you who have children - I'm lucky to have four - I can tell you the junior high years are really the most difficult years, in my estimation, as a mother. They certainly were in my case, back then, because children sometimes say things and do things that maybe, hopefully, later in years they reflect on. So to have the wonderful principal and teachers to look after you, as somebody coming who is different, looks different - we had ponytails and dresses perhaps different, certainly doesn't speak the language at all - and have gone through those years and gone through high school, graduated number three in my high school out of a number of hundreds of students. I think it was one of the largest ones in Halifax at the time, and have had the opportunity to do all my universities in all of the beautiful universities that we have in this province. I went to Saint Mary's first and then Dalhousie. I was fortunate to take some courses at the Mount. I also went to the one in Dartmouth. It was a vocational one-night course because I wanted to speed up on my courses so that I could finish faster.

 

            To now be sitting in this chair and have the privilege to represent my beautiful riding that I grew up in, and the great constituents that I have, and to be a minister in a province and in a country that some people take for granted - and I know I don't - for me, is one of the best things in life.

            I'm the oldest of six kids. Like most other children, you grow up in a small village, small town, mom and dad, six kids. We all went through what most people went through back then and even now. Things were hard, but with a lot of work, a lot of commitment, a lot of dedication, and really a lot of support - family support, community support.

 

            I really want to thank everybody for the opportunity to be here.

 

            MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E13 stand?

 

            Resolution E13 stands.

 

            E22. RESOLVED, that a sum not exceeding $593,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the FOIPOP Review Office, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

            E24. RESOLVED, that a sum not exceeding $2,532,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Human Rights Commission, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

            E27. RESOLVED, that a sum not exceeding $435,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Nova Scotia Police Complaints Commissioner, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

            E30. RESOLVED, that a sum not exceeding $7,490,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Office of Immigration, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

            E33. RESOLVED, that a sum not exceeding $22,823,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Public Prosecution Service, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

            MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolutions carry?

 

            The resolutions are carried.

 

            [The subcommittee adjourned at 6:55 p.m.]