HALIFAX, THURSDAY, APRIL 11, 2013

 

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

 

1:42 P.M.

 

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Jim Morton

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, everyone. I would like to convene this meeting of the Subcommittee on Supply. I'm calling this afternoon the estimates of the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage.

 

Resolution E2 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $60,009,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage, pursuant to the Estimate, and the business plan of the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia be approved.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Communities, Culture and Heritage.

 

HON. LEONARD PREYRA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee. It is a pleasure to present the estimates of the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage. I have some opening remarks that will outline the highlights of the 2013-14 budget for the department.

 

Nova Scotia is turning the corner as our government brings the province's finances back to balance. The credit for that rests with all Nova Scotians because of the hard work and sacrifice that made it possible - it was done by them. The province's financial plan for the coming year delivers on our commitment to get back to balance, to ensure that we deliver on the priorities important to Nova Scotians, that's better care sooner, creating good jobs that grow the economy, and making life more affordable for Nova Scotian families.

 

Getting back to balance did not happen by accident. It happened because we had a plan and we stuck to that plan. The plan meant making difficult but prudent choices to control government spending and make key investments in jobs and communities to grow our economy. As a result of that plan and the shared sacrifices made by all Nova Scotians, communities across the province are now better placed to take advantage of the new opportunities coming their way.

 

As Nova Scotia turns the corner and prepares to take advantage of these new opportunities, strengthening communities is a key element of government's plan. The work of the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage plays a key role in helping communities grow stronger so that they can continue to make life better for families. I'm excited to share details of our plans for the coming fiscal year with the committee and the people of Nova Scotia.

 

This year, the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage will focus on a number of initiatives, programs and services that will help build community capacity. To do that means continuing to grow our creative economy as we follow the five-point plan for arts and culture, protecting and promoting our diverse culture and heritage and encouraging lifelong learning.

 

Mr. Chairman, I'd like to take a moment to acknowledge the department's people for their good work in helping us reach back to balance and serving Nova Scotians. I want to congratulate my deputy who is sitting to my right, Deputy Minister Laura Lee Langley and her senior leadership team and the exceptional people of the department for their dedication to advancing an environment where best practices and tremendous services and support of our stakeholders is a hallmark. Deputy Langley has been a leading deputy on a number of interdepartmental committees but in particular, she has been the champion of promoting diversity and improving the working life and working culture within the bureaucracy itself. I want to thank her for her great work, both in the department, to the larger Public Service, and particularly to our stakeholders.

 

To my left is the person who keeps our books and everything else in order and who will be right by my side as we get into the nitty-gritty details of the budget. Ms. Joyce McDonald is our director of financial services and I want to thank her, too, for her great work in the department. There are a number of people who I will thank later who will come and go as questions might arise.

 

The work of the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage touches the heart of every community in Nova Scotia. Mr. Chairman, whether it's preserving and protecting our shared heritage through the work of provincial and local museums or providing opportunities to nurture a love of reading and lifelong learning through our regional libraries, the work of the department and its staff is felt in every part of Nova Scotia.

 

Mr. Chairman, whether it's advancing access to French-language services for Acadian and francophone Nova Scotians or providing learning opportunities that keep Gaelic language and culture alive and thriving in our province, the department and its staff positively impact communities across Nova Scotia. Whether it's supporting Nova Scotia's talented artists and creators who contribute to a vibrant, creative economy that provides jobs and opportunities or recognizes the importance of community spirit to the quality of life we all enjoy, the department and its staff are playing a vital role that touches every Nova Scotia community.

 

Mr. Chairman, whether it's ensuring that the history, accomplishments and contributions of African Nova Scotians are celebrated, supported and understood, or helping non-profit groups make improvements to facilities that our communities rely upon for activities and services that make life better for families, the department and its staff are active in every community across Nova Scotia. It's a privilege to share information about the budget for a department that brings such a clear and positive focus to communities in the broadest sense of the word.

 

Mr. Chairman, when I came to this department as minister in May 2012, one of the first questions that came to mind for me was, what do we mean when we say community? After all, community could have many meanings; it could be based on geography, it could be based on history and tradition, it could be defined by a shared or common interest. Clearly there are many possible definitions of community. I can't help but believe that a community is more than a place name on a map; it can be any group that shares a set of beliefs, values or common purpose.

 

Mr. Chairman, communities by their very nature are diverse, taking into account different points of view, different ranges of experience and different dreams and aspirations. Above all, communities are about people, their hopes and dreams for the future.

 

This department is making key investments in our culture, heritage and services, such as public libraries that are helping Nova Scotians achieve their dreams. As Nova Scotia turns the corner and seizes new opportunities, we have a lot of dreams that are within our reach.

 

Mr. Chairman, our government listened to Nova Scotians and is working with them to meet the priorities that matter most to them. Nova Scotians value strong communities that create economic opportunities through good jobs. Once again, in the coming year, the Community Jobs and Facilities Improvement Program will support good local jobs and help grow the economy. Non-profit community groups have the chance to share in $2.3 million in funding that will ensure that key facilities that make life better in communities continue to be there. In 2012-13, this program benefited 173 applicants across Nova Scotia.

 

Nova Scotians value communities that place importance on lifelong learning, which is supported by community museums and libraries throughout Nova Scotia. Once again this year, our government is providing stable funding to the Community Museum Assistance Program and for operating grants to regional libraries through the Nova Scotia Provincial Library.

 

Nova Scotians also value communities that work hard to celebrate our diverse culture and heritage. This year, the Vive l'Acadie Community Support Fund that is generated by sales of Nova Scotia's new French language licence plate will support our Acadian communities with funding for special projects. Study of Gaelic language and culture will be supported by bursary programs through the Department of Gaelic Affairs again in the coming year. Project LEAD will continue to introduce young African Nova Scotians to the justice system and prepare them to be good citizens and positive contributors to our communities.

 

In a world where difference is too often viewed with suspicion and fear, Nova Scotians can know that our rich and diverse culture and heritage are the foundation for many vibrant communities. This department is dedicated to promoting that diversity and celebrating it with all Nova Scotians.

 

Whether it's a local museum, support for an artist, the work of the Nova Scotia Archives to produce our documentary heritage or the many programs that support our Acadian, African Nova Scotian or Gaelic cultures, this department is helping to make life better for Nova Scotia families. Through these programs and services and our partnership with stakeholders across the province, we are ensuring that communities and their people are able to share in the new opportunities for growth that come as we turn the corner to a balanced budget and renewed economic growth.

 

It is a pleasure to speak to the committee today about the major initiatives and activities of the department in this coming year. I am proud to serve as a minister for a department that does so much to contribute to making life better for families in every region. That contribution includes the support provided to regional libraries across the province through the Nova Scotia Provincial Library. Our government understands how important public libraries are to the health and vitality of communities across the province. That is why we are working hard to provide stable operating funding again this year to regional boards. It is why we are working with those boards as they study options for maintaining active rural library services that can benefit families in every region of the province.

 

With the leadership of staff and in co-operation with regional library boards in every part of Nova Scotia, we're ensuring that public libraries continue to support a culture that values lifelong learning. To do that, the provincial library works with its partners to explore ways to be more efficient in managing library collections so that resources can be focused at the local level on programming.

 

Thanks to the work government and all Nova Scotians have done to get back to balance, we are also able to provide continuing and stable funding through operating grants to regional library boards. In 2013-14, the budget for these operating grants is being maintained at approximately $14 million - the same as in the previous fiscal year. Staff at the Provincial Library and this government will continue to work with regional library boards across Nova Scotia to face the challenge of maintaining this vital service for our communities.

 

The Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage brings a focus to protecting and celebrating Nova Scotia's diverse culture and heritage. The work of the Office of Acadian Affairs, Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs, and the Office of Gaelic Affairs ensures that these cultural communities are part of government's efforts to make life better for Nova Scotian families. That work also ensures that all Nova Scotians benefit from the innovation and creativity that is unleashed when we celebrate and value a diverse culture and heritage.

 

Ensuring every Nova Scotian has the opportunity to pursue their dreams and contribute to strong communities is vital to our future as a province. I'm proud to work with the people of our department to help make that happen.

 

I look forward to continuing to work with my colleagues, Ministers Paris, Smith and Wilson, in the coming year to ensure the voices of Acadians, African Nova Scotians and our Gaelic community are heard at the decision-making table in government. The Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage will work to ensure that the contributions these communities have made to our history continue to be recognized and that they will help to influence our province's future.

 

That is reflected in the support that our government has provided to the development of the Black Loyalist Heritage Centre in Birchtown. As the construction of the centre moves forward, all Nova Scotians can look forward to the story of the Black Loyalists joining the Provincial Museum scene and adding to our appreciation and understanding of this important part of our shared history.

 

It is important that we make key investments in preserving the diverse elements of our culture and heritage to help tell the story of Nova Scotia's unique identity. The provincial investment at Birchtown is helping the Black Loyalist Heritage Society leverage contributions from other levels of government and other donors to build a centre that will tell the story of the Black Loyalists for current and future generations.

 

As I mentioned before, the people who make up the team at the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage are working hard to support the mandate of the department. Being part of that team is an honour for me. I have been impressed with their commitment to supporting the arts and culture community, our public libraries, the heritage sector and our distinct cultural communities. I also want to thank the members of the culture and heritage sector and our regional libraries for contributing so much to the health and well-being of communities across the province. In keeping with government priorities, they are helping make life better for families in every region as we turn the corner and start to take advantage of new opportuntities.

 

Four years ago, our government laid out a plan to get Nova Scotia back to balance. It was a difficult challenge, but one that was important to Nova Scotians who wanted their government to live within its means so that we could support the programs and services that are important to them. Taking a balanced approach that focused on being more careful with spending while supporting activities that can lead to more jobs and economic growth, this year our government is delivering on its pledge to achieve balance in our finances.

 

The Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage is focused on helping government achieve those priorities because they are important to Nova Scotians. That means we continue to make strategic choices about how we support our important sectors to ensure their long-term viability. We are making the right decisions to ensure that government lives within its means. We are being strategic about how we invest our valuable financial and material resources in support of making life better for the people of Nova Scotia. Being strategic means working hard to be more efficient in our work while enhancing our support for the arts and culture sector, protecting important pieces of our heritage through Nova Scotia Archives, and supporting local jobs to the Community Jobs and Facilities Improvement Program.

 

The Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage is estimating its budget for 2013-14 to be $60,009,000. As I mentioned, we have made strategic choices that contribute to government's efforts to live within its means, but we're also excited that in this fiscal year we have found the means to enhance support for cultural development in Nova Scotia - more on that in a moment.

 

While the department is realizing savings in terms of its operational budget this year, those savings do not impact our support for community-run museums or the arts and culture sector and, as I mentioned, the budget for operating grants to regional libraries has been maintained. The savings we are making were identified through increased efficiencies and shared services within the department. They are in keeping with government's commitment to get back to balance through a balanced and prudent mix of greater efficiency and strategic investments.

 

We are able to make these savings because of the hard work of the dedicated team of departmental staff. They enable us to be even more strategic in how we invest in our sectors while ensuring we are as efficient as possible.

 

When our government brought together the broad range of community-focused programs and services under the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage two years ago, we expected that efficiencies in administration would be possible that contribute towards turning the corner to a balanced budget. In the past year, as the new department structure has become fleshed out, we have been able to realize those expectations.

 

A highlight was the commemoration of the centennial of the Titanic disaster. Our many unique resources - heritage, culture, shared administration - combined to provide a moving tribute to this pivotal moment in our history. Breaking down silos meant that the planning for the Titanic commemoration was easier, more efficient and effective. This meant that the public had an opportunity to share in a moving experience last April when this tragic moment was marked with history, performance and reflection in Halifax.

 

Mr. Chairman, the sectors supported by Communities, Culture and Heritage generate economic activity and provide a foundation for learning and strong communities. That advances our government's commitment to create good jobs and grow the economy for the benefit of Nova Scotians in all parts of this province.

 

Nova Scotia's artists, composers, craftspeople, performers, actors, writers and musicians continue to represent the leading edge of creativity in our country and on the global stage. This government recognizes how important the contribution of the arts and culture community are to Nova Scotians.

 

Two years ago Premier Darrell Dexter announced a five-point plan to build our relationship with the arts and culture sector and enhance the value of Nova Scotia's creative economy. This is part of the province's plan to make life better for families. It is further evidence of how we're doing things differently. The five-point plan was based on the input received from nearly 1,000 Nova Scotians who participated in consultations in the Fall of 2010. It was influenced by the views of artists and the organizations that advocate for them and lives up to our commitment to give them a strong voice in helping government determine its priorities for developing Nova Scotia's creative economy.

 

Mr. Chairman, we've listened to that sector and are acting to ensure their voices play a role in guiding our support for arts and culture in Nova Scotia. The five-point plan included: status of the artist legislation to recognize the importance of the arts to Nova Scotians; establishing Arts Nova Scotia, an independent body responsible for decisions on funding to individual artists and the organizations that support them; developing the Creative Nova Scotia Leadership Council to provide advice to government and lead the development of a culture strategy; strengthening communications with the sector to allow for better dialogue; and establishing an interdepartmental committee to coordinate government's efforts to support arts and culture and address the needs and concerns of the sector.

 

Mr. Chairman, there can be no mistaking that arts and culture build stronger communities; $1.2 billion in economic activity and 28,000 direct and indirect jobs are dependent on arts and culture. Our investment in this important sector directly impacts government's commitment to make life better for all Nova Scotians through good jobs and economic growth.

 

Mr. Chairman, we are delivering on the five-point plan. The legislation to establish both the Creative Nova Scotia Leadership Council and Arts Nova Scotia was passed in the Fall of 2011. The members of the Creative Nova Scotia Leadership Council, under the leadership of their Chair, Ronald Bourgeois, have been working hard. At the recent Growing a Creative Economy conference in Sydney, the council released its report, Culture: Nova Scotia's Future. The report is the result of extensive research on best practices and dialogue by the council within the sector. I am pleased to say we are already acting on the report with a new initiative in this fiscal year to increase funding for arts and culture development in Nova Scotia.

 

Mr. Chairman, the first board of Arts Nova Scotia, made up of 11 distinguished members of the artistic community, was appointed in March 2012, with responsibility for $2.8 million in funding for individual artists and organizations that support them. Arts Nova Scotia has taken on its new responsibilities with excitement and dedication as this element of the five-point plan proceeds.

 

Status of the artist legislation was the very first bill introduced in the Spring sitting of the House of Assembly a year ago. With this legislation, Nova Scotia has recognized the value of arts and culture to Nova Scotians and ensured artists will be treated with fairness and equity in Nova Scotia.

 

The interdepartmental committee has been meeting to look for ways to better coordinate the province's funding and support for this vital sector. That commitment to co-operating across departments was highlighted with the announcement of Film & Creative Industries Nova Scotia in the Fall. Expanding the mandate of Film Nova Scotia to include a broader focus on supporting commercial growth for Nova Scotia's artists and creative businesses, the new approach will help Nova Scotians take advantage of new opportunities to grow a creative economy.

 

That is not the only way our government is enhancing support for cultural development. Last Fall, our government signed a memorandum of understanding with Canada Council to support diversity in the arts. With provincial funding of $225,000 over three years, we are leveraging another $225,000 from the Canada Council that can be used to support artistic development in our diverse communities.

 

Ensuring that creative excellence in our province includes diverse culture and heritage makes our communities better places to raise a family and achieve our dreams. It is the only way to ensure that when we speak of culture, we think about it in the broadest and most expansive way possible. It is essential if we are to continue building a modern and progressive society where there is room at the table for everyone.

 

In the coming year, our support for cultural development in Nova Scotia will be boosted with new funding for the Support for Culture Program. Modelled on the highly successful Support for Sport Program that has enhanced sport and recreation in Nova Scotia, Support for Culture is expected to generate $2 million in new funding in 2013-14. That funding will support programs that benefit the arts, heritage preservation and interpretation, and enhance respect for the diversity that makes our communities such exciting places to live, work and raise a family. More information and detail about Support for Culture will be coming in the weeks ahead. I'm pleased to say that Support for Culture is one more way that our government is acting on the priorities of Nova Scotians.

 

Members of the arts and culture sector have called for enhanced support for broad cultural development in Nova Scotia, and in this budget, that is exactly what is happening. I'm looking forward to continuing to work with the arts and culture sector and the people of this department to advance our five-point plan and the development of the creative economy over the coming year.

 

Nova Scotia's heritage resources make a valuable contribution to communities and support lifelong learning. Through the Nova Scotia Museum system, the Nova Scotia Archives, and the efforts of local heritage groups and community museums, that heritage remains accessible to visitors and residents alike.

 

The province's Heritage Strategy guides the government in the important job of preserving and interpreting heritage and supports communities as they seek to benefit from the broad range of resources that are part of our legacy for current and future generations.

 

We are exploring new and innovative ways to make our heritage available to wider audiences. The Virtual Archive, available on-line through the Nova Scotia Archives, make valuable pieces of our documentary heritage accessible at any time of the day for researchers and other members of the public. That approach to putting high-quality images of the provincial archive collection on-line is not only making those resources more accessible than ever, it is also helping to protect the security of our collection by reducing the need to access the original item as frequently.

 

Mr. Chairman, we are supporting the work of communities to preserve their history and tell their stories to Nova Scotians and visitors to our province.

 

Even as government works hard to live within its means, we're providing continued and stable funding to community-run museums through the Community Museum Assistance Program. In 2013-14, we will be providing $978,000 in grants to the community museums, the same level of funding as it was in 2012-13.

 

Mr. Chairman, an important piece of Nova Scotia's seafaring heritage is receiving a new lease on life as the restoration of the iconic Bluenose II in Lunenburg approaches completion. Not only is the restoration securing an enduring symbol of our maritime heritage, it is also showcasing the talents and skills of the companies that have joined forces for this project. The restoration is letting the world know that innovation is creating jobs and economic opportunities in rural Nova Scotia. Last September thousands showed how much they value the Bluenose II legacy when they came out to celebrate her re-launch on the Lunenburg waterfront. Against a quintessential maritime background of fog and mist they watched history made as our rebuilt sailing ambassador slipped back into the waters of Lunenburg Harbour. In the very near future Nova Scotians will see Bluenose II make history again as her sea trials begin and she returns to public sailing through the summer.

 

Make no mistake, this has been a unique and challenging project, bringing together traditional wood boatbuilding techniques with the modern materials and standards that must be followed by any boat intended to carry passengers, the Bluenose II restoration has shown the world that Nova Scotia has what it takes for innovative projects.

 

Mr. Chairman, I want to commend the skilled craftspeople of the Lunenburg Shipyard Alliance for their work and dedication as they have rebuilt our proud sailing ambassador with care and attention to every detail. They not only show that Ships Start Here but the best ships start here. Our investment in the Bluenose II restoration fits with our government's jobsHere strategy and it is creating a legacy of good jobs for the people of Lunenburg and all Nova Scotians. The eyes of the world are on Lunenburg and this benefits the consortium of Nova Scotia boatbuilders that are working hard to complete this historic project.

 

The Lunenburg Shipyard Alliance, made up of Covey Island Boatworks, Lunenburg Industrial Foundry & Engineering, and Snyder's Shipyard, will be able to compete more effectively on future shipbuilding projects thanks to their involvement with the Bluenose II restoration. In fact, Mr. Chairman, they have been selected as the finalist for Boatyard of the Year by the U.K. magazine, Classic Boat.

 

Working with these fine Nova Scotia companies means the benefits of this major infrastructure investment are staying in Nova Scotia helping to make life better for families by creating good jobs. Not only does this project mean that good jobs are being created it also secures the future for our famous sailing ambassador and the benefits it brings to Lunenburg and the province. This will draw attention to the importance of preserving links to our industrious past, to encourage a future that advances the well-being of all Nova Scotians.

 

As I mentioned, the arts and culture sector also supports the social and economic health of Nova Scotians. Working with members of the sector and the organizations that speak for them the department continues to explore ways to provide financial support to artistic and creative development. The new Support for Culture program I mentioned a few minutes ago means a new source of revenue will be available to do just that. As our government continues to keep its commitment to make life better we will work with our partners in the arts and culture sector, and across the Public Service, to ensure that creativity and artistic excellence continue to define who we are as Nova Scotians.

 

In a world where information is shared in the blink of an eye and people have infinite choices for media content ensuring our stories are heard and our distinct Nova Scotian identity is preserved can be daunting. That means our music, art, literature, fine craft, and the people who bring creativity to life in the arts and culture sector are one of the most important assets for reaching the wider world with a unique Nova Scotia voice. Mr. Chairman, they challenge our perceptions, encourage us to reach further and explore new ideas and makes us stronger on every level.

Our Communities, Culture and Heritage team works very hard to ensure that the arts and culture sector receives the support and attention it deserves. Members of the sector are involved in the decision-making process surrounding funding programs to ensure that artistic merit and creativity are the benchmarks for awarding funding. I extend appreciation to my team for their dedication to not only their own disciplines, but the sector as a whole.

 

Mr. Chairman, Nova Scotia's Responsible Gaming Strategy continues to make our province a leader in socially responsible management and conduct of gaming activities. Building on research and analysis, best practices from other jurisdictions, and lessons learned in Nova Scotia, the strategy sets out a balanced and measured approach, seeks to ensure that programs and services valued by Nova Scotians continue to benefit from gaming revenues at the same time that potential harm is minimized. The strategy takes seriously our responsibility to reduce the harm that problem gambling can cause. In keeping with the key commitment in the strategy, the My- Play System for VLT use - a North American first - became mandatory for everyone in Nova Scotia last April. Coupled with our commitment to slowly reduce the numbers of VLTs through attrition, and sharpening the focus on research into problem gambling, we are ensuring Nova Scotia continues to lead on responsible gaming, and reduces its reliance on VLT revenues. And, in the coming year, the positive benefits of lottery revenue will extend for the first time to cultural development in Nova Scotia. Nova Scotians will be able to show their support for our artists, museums, and diverse communities through the Support for Culture program.

 

Mr. Chairman, on a broader note, our professional team of people in the department will be working to enhance the relationships with our sectors and stakeholders as they pursue our plans for the coming year. I am looking forward to being part of that team. It's exciting to be part of building a vision for strong and healthy communities through this new department. I believe we've made a good start down that road, and are positioned for success in the year ahead.

 

I would now be pleased to take questions on the department's estimates. Thank you.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. The first round of questions goes to the Official Opposition.

 

The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park.

 

MS. DIANA WHALEN: Thank you very much, and thank you to the minister for that opening statement which gave us a real good overview of everything in the department and touched on all the areas that fall under your responsibility. Absolutely, it's a department that is a feel-good place, I can see that. There's a lot of wonderful things that you're dealing with in terms of arts and the groups that you are supporting. So overall I think there are a lot of pluses and I think it affects every community in Nova Scotia. So, I certainly will say that a great deal of your money, I believe, goes out the door to grants and contributions to individual groups.

 

I was just flipping through the list there of the grants and contributions, just looking for certain organizations that I know of and that I think are good, and certainly seeing how much is allocated for each of those. So, you know, I can see that it's a good department in many ways; there are questions around your spending and your priorities, so I certainly want to get into those as well. And as you know, we do like to go through it and just kind of flesh out some of the lines because often - and it's necessary with the estimates - there are so many departments and so much money in total, we're over $9 billion in this budget, that it's very high-level what we do receive in the book. So everything from the department is really quite a light package when you look at what we have to work with.

 

So, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to begin just with a couple of questions on the first page, Page 4.2, of the estimates, which has the general spending and where the priorities are. There has been quite a dip this year in the amount of money that's chargeable to other departments. The last year what was forecast was just over $1 million. What was actual was $1.867 million. This year you're only estimating about $400,000 chargeable to other departments. So I wonder if you could just say what that is, what it's made up of, and why it dipped?

 

MR. PREYRA: I want to thank you for your kind words about the department and its work, and as I said in my opening remarks, all of that credit should go to the deputy and the great team of people that she has assembled around her.

 

With regard to the questions, I'm told that because the department was in the middle of a reorganization, there was a great amount of money that was transferred between departments during that period. That reorganization has now largely run its course and so the funds have been reduced as a result of that as well. I can't give you the exact breakdown at the moment but we could if you'd like, but that is the general principle that informs the change.

 

MS. WHALEN: If I could then, if there has been a change in the number of staff in other areas that were supporting the department, does that mean there has been a corresponding increase in your internal staff?

 

MR. PREYRA: No, there hasn't.

 

MS. WHALEN: Okay. That helps. You have only six under the funded staff, FTEs that are funded by external agencies. Where would they be funded from? It's on the first page, still Page 4.2.

 

MR. PREYRA: Those are the French-language Services, those are federal transfers of money that really just run through the department.

MS. WHALEN: Would that mean that the federal government then is paying for six positions within the department?

 

MR. PREYRA: Not directly paying for it, but it supports those positions.

 

MS. WHALEN: That's very good. In the actual this year, the forecast compared to estimate, the number of staff is different. I have here it was only 205, it's on Page 4.2 under Funded Staff, the estimation was 236 and the forecast, it's the very bottom line on Page 4.2, the actual number was 205 rather than 236. Is there a reason why they didn't materialize? Was it less interest in the positions? Were the positions cut? What has been going on?

 

MR. PREYRA: Thank you again for that question. It revolves again around the fact that as the department was being created and reorganized a number of positions were being moved in and out and some of the positions had to be filled later on a delayed basis so there was that time lag.

 

MS. WHALEN: In fact, I think that relates to my earlier question. Really while there was almost $2 million in chargeable to other departments it will be reflected now in the new number for 2013-14 of 232 funded FTEs in the department, which is significantly above, 27 more people than had been actual this year. It really has made up for it during the reorganization.

 

While I'm wanting to make another question, I'll continue on to another area if the minister wants to reply to that as well later. I wanted to look at the 2013-14, Page 4.3 and it's the funding for the Executive Director position which also has gone down actually under Culture and Heritage Development. It has gone down from last year's estimate by almost, approaching, $200,000 and it's still significantly less than the forecast for this year past. If you could look at Culture and Heritage Development under the Executive Director's Office and see that has gone down and the Communities Nova Scotia budget has gone up. Maybe you could just give a few words of explanation? Thank you.

 

MR. PREYRA: Thank you very much. I thought for a minute that you were complaining about the reduction in spending in the department in that field . . .

 

MS. WHALEN: No, I'm curious.

 

MR. PREYRA: Thank you for drawing it to our attention. The monies really are a result of monies that have been transferred partly as a provincial Canada Council commitment to the Equity of the Arts Program. We also transferred to the secretariat for new Communications as it moved out of the department and that was it. Essentially the creation of a body elsewhere meant that we spent less within the department on communications.

 

MS. WHALEN: I wonder if I could ask the minister to give us a breakdown of those figures at some time. It doesn't have to be this minute but if we could just ask for some breakdown of that because again, I know whenever you have a single figure there's always a lot more that goes into it, so it would help us to see how that breaks down in the future.

 

MR. PREYRA: I could give that to you now, if you'd like.

 

MS. WHALEN: That would be good.

 

MR. PREYRA: Transferring of funding to development programs to cover the provincial portion of the Canada Council commitment for the Arts Equity Program.

 

MS. WHALEN: I'd like to get it in paper, if I could, because then I don't have to scribble notes quite as fast and try and make sure I get it all correctly, so if it's possible, I'd like to have a copy of it.

 

MR. PREYRA: Sure, just trying to be helpful.

 

MS. WHALEN: That is helpful but it would take us longer to go through all those questions when I can just see it later, so thank you very much.

 

I think I heard the word "communications" in there, I'm not certain of that but I would like to go perhaps to some questions soon on the communications budget and see exactly what monies are being expended on communications as we go through.

 

MR. PREYRA: That was the part that I was going to reiterate, where the money was being transferred from . . .

 

MS. WHALEN: Well perhaps you could just zero in on communications then, please.

 

MR. PREYRA: It's fairly straightforward, we have it here. The question was, how do we account for the variation from 813 to 643. The transfer for $70,000 was transferred to the Secretariat. And another $54,000 out.

 

MS. WHALEN: Those were both out - not in but out?

 

MR. PREYRA: It's out, yes, and $75,000 - I'm not sure this is a communications part but $75,000 was the Canada Council part that I referred to earlier.

 

MS. WHALEN: And we lost the Canada Council monies, is that correct?

 

MR. PREYRA: No, it was just transferred out to the Arts Equity Program.

 

MS. WHALEN: So it's within your department still, just on a different line, if I'm correct?

I'd like to continue along, there are a number of executive director positions actually over there, offices, that have gone the other direction and increased quite substantially. I'd like to ask you, under the Archives, Museums and Libraries section, which is Page 4.4, in that case the Executive Director position has gone - I shouldn't say position, I think it's their office - gone from $2.3 million - that was last year's estimate - up to $3.1 million, a rise of over $800,000. I wonder if you could explain what's going on in Archives, Museums and Libraries?

 

MR. PREYRA: That is the Bluenose amortization in that.

 

MS. WHALEN: Excuse me but I wonder why the Bluenose amortization is under the Executive Director's Office? That seems like a very weird place to be, you are amortizing a capital project, shouldn't it appear somewhere else, under the Bluenose project? I mean that's a major undertaking, a several million dollars undertaking of the province, shouldn't it be separately accounted for?

 

MR. PREYRA: The Executive Director is responsible for those amortization costs, it's an operating cost and that's why it's included as part of the budget. I understand that's standard accounting practice.

 

MS. WHALEN: It's very odd for anybody in Opposition to be able to track costs when one would expect that the Executive Director's Office would be the site for a few staff that are managing a major program, not a place where you'd put capital costs that you are recognizing over a number of years. It seems to me it may be acceptable but I don't know that that's standard because it would make it really difficult to track.

 

MR. PREYRA: What is standard is to separate capital costs from operating costs, and operating costs are included with the Executive Director's Office, as is standard practice.

 

MS. WHALEN: I might ask that there should be a line for that somewhere else in the budget. As I say, amortization to me is something really - it is related that you recognize it annually over a period of years for a major capital project that has probably been funded under your capital budgets and likely is adding to the debt of the province, but nevertheless . . .

 

MR. PREYRA: Now, just to be clear, this isn't a capital cost. Any capital cost would be included in the other one if it was there, yes.

 

MS. WHALEN: It is the capital cost being recognized this year, that's what amortization is, your total capital cost broken down over many years. Can you tell me the figure for the amortization, could you just tell me how much was amortized that year, say 2012-13?

 

MR. PREYRA: There was nothing in 2013.

MS. WHALEN: Okay, nothing then because it was being built, so this coming year, the estimate?

 

MR. PREYRA: It's $2.068 million.

 

MS. WHALEN: Can you tell me how many years it's going to be amortized over. I think the capital cost was around $14 million or maybe it went higher. It was estimated at about $14 million.

 

MR. PREYRA: I'll get back to you on that.

 

MS. WHALEN: Okay. I don't know who makes a note of what's coming back so I have to make a note of that.

 

MR. PREYRA: We are both doing it.

 

MS. WHALEN: Okay, good. I just want to make sure it does come back because I may ask for a few other things but I think that would be important. So that you say is the $2 million essentially that has gone up?

 

MR. PREYRA: Yes, $2.068 million.

 

MS. WHALEN: So then are you suggesting that the other costs have gone down significantly this year because your overall, your Executive Director Office has not risen by a full $2 million so something must have been cut within that office?

 

MR. PREYRA: Well yes there have been reductions, and as I said in my general remarks, the department has been looking for savings wherever we can find them.

 

MS. WHALEN: Are there fewer staff now with the Executive Director's Office or would there be fewer people under that line item?

 

MR. PREYRA: Part of the explanation for that is that in 2012-13 we had budgeted $1.2 million for the amortization and that expenditure wasn't made; 2013-14 we budgeted $2.068, as I said earlier, and so the variation there is $868,000.

 

MS. WHALEN: Thank you very much. Could we look at the next page which has the Secretariat funding, and again just very high level it shows almost $5.3 million for the coming year, just a slight increase over last year. It's got an increase in funded staff by more than four over the forecast, and I'm guessing that a lot of these increases in staffing are related to that reorganization again, that might account for a few extra bodies in each area. But my big question there would be, again, the Executive Director's Office which this being in thousands of dollars, the Secretariat was estimated last year at almost, just about right on, $300,000, this year it's $480,000, so that's an increase of $181,000 on that Executive Director's Office. Can you tell what's included in that? Obviously we start with an executive director what else would be included in that?

 

MR. PREYRA: It's largely explained by two positions that are in the unit. One is for a liaison with the Provincial Lotteries and Casino Corporation, and the other was for a Public Service renewable and engagement term position.

 

MS. WHALEN: Could you just explain the second position? I got the first one, a liaison with the Lottery Commission.

 

MR. PREYRA: It was largely a transition program as the department was being created and as the Secretariat was taking on new responsibilities and it was a way, I think, of getting them to work together more efficiently.

 

MS. WHALEN: But that position is now added this coming year, it's over past that. I'm seeing an increase in the Executive Director line by almost $200,000. The minister said it was made up of two new positions - one is a liaison with the Lottery Corporation and I'm not sure what one was. I don't think it would have been part of the transition because the minister says the transition's over, or completed. I'd like to get a better understanding about the $180,000.

 

MR. PREYRA: Previously this was a borrowed position that existed elsewhere in the department. What is happening, just to give you a big picture, you have a department that's being reorganized and some services are being brought in and others are being moved out. We have people moving in and this is a position that was previously a short-term position elsewhere, was brought in and filled out. I think typically with many of these questions you will see people drawn in and one area taken out in another.

 

MS. WHALEN: Thank you. I wonder, I'm curious, this department has existed for a little while, you're not the first minister. We've had Minister Wilson prior to you in this department. Why is there so much reorganization, shifting and changing when this has existed for some time? Can you tell me? Initially did it take two or three years to bring everybody together into this new department? It sounds disruptive right now, it sounds like it didn't come together.

 

MR. PREYRA: No, I think it's a great question. The department itself was brought together in part, the Communities unit is the largest part of that reorganization. There was a very strong feeling in the government that we needed to bring communities, particularly communities that need more navigation and more assistance in making their way through governance and identifying government services. This department was given the lead responsibility of championing that process and leading it.

 

We're not done yet. As I see it, for the next little while we're going to continue to identify areas within the Public Service where things have been duplicated, or things are not being done, identifying gaps. Part of the responsibility of the department is to identify those issues where they are and so the Communities part of it in particular is a real work in progress. The larger structure is there, the broad principles are set out, but the larger goal of reducing the size of government, to reducing the complexity of government, reducing red tape, making the government more accessible to communities is part of that larger mandate. That is precisely what we're going to do so you will see and continue to see these kinds of changes.

 

The other set of issues relate to the five-point plan where we would very much like to strengthen some of the institutions that we have developed, Arts Nova Scotia being one of them, the Creative Nova Scotia Leadership Council, the Film and Creative Industries. On the Arts Nova Scotia front, we have said that we want to move more of our granting into a merit-based system so we will look across departments to see within our department whether or not we can move things more into that system.

 

With the Film and Creative Industries group we have decided that in response to what the department and the stakeholders are looking for is that we will move the more mature export-ready industries - I don't want to use that term too loosely - that we're going to allow them access to Economic and Rural Development and Tourism dollars as well as we will continue to support that and we will devote more of our attention to nurturing and incubating artists and other art forms. So there too you will see movement from the department to others. You may well see other groups like book publishers, for example, sharing the resources of the department.

 

I expect that what you're seeing in this particular estimate you will continue to see for the coming years. It's not a sign of anything going wrong, it's quite the opposite it's a sign that we're doing exactly what we said we were going to do.

 

MS. WHALEN: Thank you very much because a lot of the answers were indicating transition flux change and it did look like things not coming together perhaps as they should. So you indicated . . .

 

MR. PREYRA: Change is not necessarily bad, you know that.

 

MS. WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, that's fine. Your department is a new department and I said that it's doing work that is good and important to communities and I hope it continues to do more that would be fine.

 

MR. PREYRA: Now change entails change.

 

MS. WHALEN: I'm not sure it should be a department but it is a department so we're dealing with it as it is. I would like to ask the minister a little bit since we're talking about the change and perhaps duplication. I would like to ask how it works to have different ministers for Acadian, Gaelic, and African Nova Scotian Affairs and yet you're the minister for the budget of those offices. Is that not some sort of confusion as well internally?

MR. PREYRA: No, it's not confusing at all, I think quite the contrary, it reinforces our commitment to the Acadian community, to the African Nova Scotian community, and the Gaelic community. I think those communities are delighted that they have two ministers who are keeping an eye on what's happening in those communities. The ministers, Paris, Wilson, and Smith, work largely on policy-related initiatives and programs and it is my responsibility as Minister of Communities, Culture and Heritage to be responsible for the financial flows in the department to those divisions. I should say they do have a common deputy who does that task very well.

MS. WHALEN: I wonder if the minister would let us know if there are offices outside of Halifax for those three offices, African Nova Scotian Affairs, Gaelic Affairs, and Acadian Affairs. Are you maintaining offices in other locations and staff?

 

MR. PREYRA: Antigonish and Mabou have very small Gaelic Affairs offices, and Sydney has a small African Nova Scotian Affairs office.

 

MS. WHALEN: Sydney?

 

MR. PREYRA: Yes.

 

MS. WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder where Aboriginal Affairs rests, I don't see it in this. We have our other special offices but I don't see Aboriginal Affairs so which department is that resting in?

 

MR. PREYRA: Well that's a good question. Aboriginal Affairs is a separate department that reports to the Premier who is responsible for Aboriginal Affairs. But more and more there is a strong feeling that there are issues relating to the Mi'kmaq community and cultural affairs relating to the Mi'kmaq communities that are coming more and more within the ambit of the department. We had a joint Cabinet meeting with the First Nations chiefs and I had the pleasure of working with Chief Wilbert Marshall who's the cultural chief. We have had two meetings now and we have another scheduled for this week. Essentially we are looking at common issues that we, as the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage can help.

 

I talked earlier about the whole Communities mandate that is part of it, that the Mi'kmaq community is an important part of Nova Scotia and the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage is responsible for the cultural parts of our government's obligations and so it is included in that. I think we will see, and I hope we will see, more of that type of collaboration between our two organizations. We are adding some cultural liaison activities under the Communities heading through Communities Nova Scotia but the organization of Aboriginal Affairs deals with the larger governance issues and treaties and things relating to governmental affairs. As you know the Aboriginal people have generally wanted to handle Aboriginal affairs on a nation to nation basis but there are elements of culture that we can help with and they think we can help with.

 

MS. WHALEN: It would just seem to me that it's very much in the same light of African Nova Scotian, Gaelic and Acadian Affairs and I think the Acadians feel very strongly that they have perhaps some other legal issues with the province as well, not just cultural and historical connections.

 

I think it would make sense if the Minister of Communities, Culture and Heritage doesn't control the policy and doesn't control those decisions that are made by the other ministers. I don't know why the budget of Aboriginal Affairs wouldn't be also included in this department because there seems to be a good parallel between and certainly a big cultural component supporting our Aboriginal communities but Intergovernmental Affairs definitely would have to have some say in policy and in other programs.

 

It's just the minister has begun by talking about everything being in flux and there might be - I don't think it would harm the program as long as the Premier or another minister was in charge of the Aboriginal Affairs policy and decision-making that way.

 

Mr. Chairman, I'd like to look at some of the costs related directly to communications, sort of drill down and see what those costs are exactly. There are two lines that I could locate, I guess it's under Grants and Contributions. If you'll give me a moment, I'll just have to check the binder to see where they are exactly, so that your staff can as well follow along.

 

On Page 26 of the Supplement to the Public Accounts, I'm sure you know what I'm referring to - it's from another one of the books, I guess, but it's under the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage, Page 26 has a line item, Communications Nova Scotia advertising. I don't think it's terribly enormous but let's see where it is. I think that one is $11,508, but later on there's another list of costs, under Communications Nova Scotia - that's on Page 30. So we have a smaller line item there, on Page 26, which I said was $11,500. On Page 30 there's some larger amounts, $309,000, $81,000, $79,000 - that's Queen's Printer advertising, graphics, video production and so on.

 

I want to really get a total amount for Communications Nova Scotia. Right now I'm saying it's split into four or five items on Page 30 and there's another smaller item on Page 26. I'd just like to get an idea what your total Communications budget is and from that, I'd like to know how it breaks down.

 

MR. PREYRA: I'm sorry, it's very hard to keep up because you're moving from several pages and . . .

 

MS. WHALEN: I have only one hour.

 

MR. PREYRA: I know, and in your mind it's clear and I'm sure it is clear but for us who are flipping pages here, it's hard to keep track.

 

Just to give you a quick overview, our Communications budget for 2013-14 is estimated to be $373,000. I think many of the Communications figures that you were talking about in the Supplement are already, I think, well known but a lot of them are for special projects that are included as part of that budget for 2011-12, but in terms of the staffing . . .

 

MS. WHALEN: Special projects, it doesn't say special projects anywhere.

 

MR. PREYRA: You know like creating a Web site, for example, for a particular event or promotion of an activity for a museum exhibit or something like that, that would be how it would break down. I'd be happy to get you that information, it's mostly - it's a lot of routine business within the department. The department is called to do a promotion, , Hello Sailor, for example, and there would be $15,000 to $18,000 for helping with the promotion of that particular activity or something that (Interruptions) The posters and we've had lots of activities, for example - I'm sorry, I've lost track of your question. You were looking at examples of how that money was used, right? A ballpark figure, the total estimate is $373,000.

 

MS. WHALEN: Thank you, $373,000 you're saying is the total communications budget? I mean, I suppose that doesn't add up to all the things I see on Page 30, which has $309,000, $79,000, $81,000. You know, it is above that, so that figure isn't the total Communications Nova Scotia funding. And if it was something like promoting a museum project, would that not come under money spent under those individual museums? Would you not have given the money to a museum and that would show under their budget? Because in this, you can look up different museums, big and small, you can look up the Art Gallery, and different groups, and they have their own total budget. So my question would be, why would it be separated out?

 

MR. PREYRA: Really there are two separate sets of projects, if you will, handled by the department. Some of it is handled in-house, and some of it is just money that flows out. We were talking earlier about the tremendous reduction in costs for Communications Nova Scotia and Communications functions, and I said that . . .

 

MS. WHALEN: Reduction?

 

MR. PREYRA: Reductions, yes, that we're using less money for communications. And so that reduction was in part because Communications Nova Scotia was rationalized and there was less being done there through the department, so as a result of that, every now and then the department contracts with Communications Nova Scotia for specific projects, and that money then flows through on a project-by-project basis. It's a more efficient way of doing it than to have staff in-house to have a body that's more sort of specialized and can do it more efficiently and much more cheaply. But it has to be accounted for in our budget, and that's why you see money accounted for in that way.

 

MS. WHALEN: I may have missed that in your opening statement, but you're saying now that you have reduced your expenditures on in-house communications staff or work, and you're contracting the other office, the Communications Nova Scotia office, to do some of this work whether it's Web site development or other.

 

So could you tell me within your budget in the department, have you got any dedicated communications staff? Does the Minister of Communities, Culture and Heritage have a communications staff in office within the department?

 

I'm wondering if you heard that question, I know you were getting briefed as well. I'm wondering within your department now, do you have any dedicated communications staff to work directly with you as minister, and with your deputy and others?

 

MR. PREYRA: Yes. We have two dedicated staff members, and we have two who are shared service with the other divisions - Acadian Affairs, African Nova Scotian Affairs, and Gaelic Affairs.

 

MS. WHALEN: Relating back to your explanation of Web sites and support for exhibits and so on, could you explain why that money wouldn't simply be transferred to the agencies, the museums or the archives or whatever organization it is that needs the Web site that it relates to? Why wouldn't it show in their budget? Wouldn't that be more clear and transparent that it's their cost? I mean, I support these exhibits, I think it's great. I'm just saying where do we account for it?

 

MR. PREYRA: Well there's no distinction between their budget and our budget. We are responsible for them, and in terms of financial accountability, we contract, if I can use that word, with Communications Nova Scotia to provide that function, and we pay for it. I suspect that for a lot of these museums they're just not able to handle those kinds of financial transactions. It's part of shared services, it's part of doing things more efficiently.

 

MS. WHALEN: Can I ask, are we speaking then only about provincial museums, ones that are directly under the provincial banner? Because there are a lot of other small community museums, they certainly have separate grants that they're receiving.

 

MR. PREYRA: Yes, we don't count those. The transfers of money to those agencies are still transparent, but not under this budget line.

 

MS. WHALEN: Okay, they're certainly visible in this document, though. You can go through and find little community places like Perkins House in Queens.

 

MR. PREYRA: Oh, exactly, it's a very long list.

 

MS. WHALEN: Yes, absolutely. When you're talking about developing Web sites and doing work like that, which is communications work, or printing posters, these would be for provincial museums or . . .

MR. PREYRA: Yes, directly managed.

 

MS. WHALEN: Okay, so directly managed, that makes a bit more sense. Still, it would be nice to see it under the group that most benefits, if it's related to a particular type of museum, a given museum.

 

MR. PREYRA: It would be harder to account for that way, once you move it into that then you have to be a detective to find that money. I think a year from now we would have a different kind of debate when you say why didn't you centralize it and give us what the whole amount is. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

 

MS. WHALEN: I wonder if the minister could tell us then, since apparently there has been a reduction in communications internally, could you explain and expand upon the communications reduction that you talked about? You currently have, as you said, two shared communications people, two dedicated to Communities, Culture and Heritage - where's the reductions? Can you just outline them for us?

 

MR. PREYRA: That was the money that I was talking about earlier, essentially saying that money had been moved from one division out of communications into another, that it was essentially money that I just talked about, had moved to the various divisions. You would see it as a reduction in one place and you would see it then somewhere else.

 

MS. WHALEN: I think that's very confusing for you to make a blanket statement that there has been a reduction in communications, and I got that using less dollars for communication then less being done there you said. I was unclear about where "there" was. In fact you're saying it's still within your department, it has just been moved around then split up among divisions. It is confusing at best.

 

MR. PREYRA: I guess that's part of the point I was trying to make earlier when you were saying we should move them out of the central budget and move it out to the various museums and galleries, right? You have that kind of effect here and that's my point. We have money that is now taken out of the central unit and moved out to the divisions or a contract that's signed with Communications Nova Scotia, your question earlier suggested that's what you want us to do and now the suggestion is that we not do it.

 

MS. WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, I simply want to know what's being spent on communications. The minister made the statement that it has been reduced. That was quite interesting, I didn't know that, you said it was in the opening statement that you had outlined some reduction in it? I think that's misleading, I absolutely do think it's misleading. I'm simply trying to follow the minister's train of thought and get a picture, an overview of communications within this department of Communities, Culture and Heritage.

 

I understand that when there's something good going on you need to publicize it and you need to get the public aware of it so they can come and enjoy those concerts, musical performances, theatre and everything else that's going on in our museums and art galleries and so on under, I must qualify, those that are under the administration of the department. But I just want to get an overview. It isn't whether it's good to show it one way or good to show it another, but it's difficult from year to year if it changes in the way we're being presented and if people can't understand what really is being spent.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would you like the minister to respond to that?

 

MS. WHALEN: Yes, I'm still looking for an answer, I'm confused and I think that it is not clear.

 

MR. PREYRA: Sure, I'll have another crack at it. I gave you two answers. The first answer was $373,000 is the budget estimate for 2013-14. When the question was, what is the overall number, and you're asking it again, the answer is $373,000.

 

But the question got into the breakdown of costs, I said we have broken it down so that money goes to Acadian Affairs or African Nova Scotian Affairs. The money is being done under contract with Communications Nova Scotia or flow-through money. So yes, you will see reduction in one and you will see it increase elsewhere, where those increases take place.

 

It's the same answer, one gives you an overview and the other gives you a breakdown and I'm not quite sure whether I'm being asked to provide a breakdown now or in the future break it down or just an overview, I'm not quite sure what the recommendation here is.

 

MS. WHALEN: Perhaps this could be a request for the department to just give us that breakdown at another time, just give me the sheet of paper that outlines what's being spent. I don't care whether it's a museum or an archives, but just what's being spent under the umbrella of your department.

 

When you have given me, Mr. Minister, the cost of $373,000, my difficulty with that is I can't find it anywhere in the estimates. There's no single line in the estimates I have. Now, you have all the breakdowns and I understand you have a much bigger book for your department than we do. We have a very flimsy, six or seven pages here that outline all the divisions. In fact we have 4.6, so there's only six pages that wrap up and show in very high-level terms the activities of a department that's doing a lot of different things.

 

There is no line item for Communications but if I go to the Grants and Contributions, I find line items for Communications Nova Scotia. So those tasks that you have pushed - contracted, let's say - used the other resources of government to do. It adds up to more than $373,000, it does not add up to that. One figure alone for support services is $309,000 and very quickly you add the next one for a graphic display at $81,000, you're up over $400,000, so the figure of $373,000 doesn't relate to anything I have in the four pages of estimates or in the additional grants and contributions.

The way for us to resolve this might best be, and I would be happy to do that if we can't get an answer here today, would be to please give me and the other members of the committee a one-pager that outlines what exactly is in that. I am trying to drill down and I am not getting anything that correlates to what I have in the estimates.

 

MR. PREYRA: Yes, I think that's a fair comment. What you would like, in other words, is a breakdown of the $373,000, which is largely accounted for for the staff that I referred to earlier.

 

The other monies are costs - the details that you talked about are monies that I used across the various divisions of the department, not just in the Secretariat and those costs were 2011 and 2012 that you're talking about but we'd be happy to break it down for you and maybe it will make more sense.

 

MS. WHALEN: And perhaps to see both, the $373,000 plus the breakdown a little bit on what's being spent in other divisions.

 

MR. PREYRA: Yes, there's no problem with that but the line item you were talking about, and I think you're right, is the business administration and corporate initiatives line in the estimates.

 

MS. WHALEN: Okay, and I'm not sure what page that's on exactly but if you would give it to me, that would be good.

 

I have a couple of questions I'd like to go to in another area. The minister is right, we are zipping around the department because there's a lot of different things. Film was mentioned in the minister's opening statement, some things around film and creative industries. The film tax credit I know is administered through the Department of Finance. I'm hoping that the Minister of Communities, Culture and Heritage can explain again that overlap of responsibility between Finance and cultural industries and your department which we're here to talk about which is cultural.

 

There are some difficulties right now with the film tax credit and how it's being recognized and how companies are being treated, I guess, in their applications and the funds coming back to the films, to the production companies. I wonder if you could talk to me about the overlap. Is this an area that could come under the administration of your department rather than the Department of Finance?

 

I don't know if the minister is aware but there are some companies that have been writing the minister. I asked a question of the Minister of Finance in the Fall about this.

 

MR. PREYRA: Well you know it's just extraordinary what's happening in the film and digital world. Artists come to us all the time with questions about the industry, things that we can do to nurture the industry, to stimulate activity at the very low level . . .

 

MS. WHALEN: How about the dollars - the flow of dollars?

 

MR. PREYRA: Exactly, it's a very expensive industry but it's also a very valuable one to the creative economy and Nova Scotia has done very well, as you've seen at the Oscars and Salter Street, Donovan has won an Oscar for documentaries as well, so we continue to excel at the national level in the film-making and digital animation sector and of course we want to develop that sector.

 

The Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage is largely involved in the early stages of nurturing artistic talent and developing . . .

 

MS. WHALEN: Can you . . .

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The minister has the floor.

 

MS. WHALEN: I'd like him to answer my question.

 

MR. PREYRA: . . . artistic talents and so we have a responsibility, as a department, for a whole range of creative activities that lead to the development of the film industry. So we've very excited about being involved in that part of it.

 

As I said, part of the departmental reorganization in the last few months has involved the creation of the Film and Creative Industries, Nova Scotia. The rationale behind that was to separate parts of the incubation, development, parts of the creative economy into the more commercial, the more industrial, the more export-ready industries, so Film & Creative Industries was created to deal with that.

 

That part of the business, that part of the economy, the creative economy, is dealt with in the relationship between the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage and the Department of Economic and Rural Development and Tourism and the new agency is effectively working through the Department of Economic and Rural Development and Tourism. Of course we, as a department, have a strong interest in what happens there and we're very much part of that process.

 

The other part of that question related to the Department of Finance. The Department of Finance is responsible for the film tax credit and that film tax credit has been used to encourage and promote Nova Scotians and Nova Scotian films. The film industry has taken full advantage of it and the film industry has been quite successful overall.

 

The whole issue of tax credits, regardless of which department or which sector they come out of would be dealt with through the Department of Finance which is responsible for tax credits. There's no overlap there, there's no confusion, that's the way it has been done for accounting reasons, for oversight reasons, and the Department of Finance will answer questions relating to the film tax credit and the Department of Economic and Rural Development and Tourism will answer questions relating to Film & Creative Industries.

 

The Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage is very much a part of both those discussions because it is our job to promote and encourage and nurture the development of the creative economy as well.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Member, I think you'd like to clarify your question.

 

MS. WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, all I wanted to know is really why the Minister of Communities, Culture and Heritage isn't doing something to improve the payment to the industry that he is supporting so much, to make sure that they get their credits approved or examined and a decision on whether or not they're going to get help and really why it isn't under the same authority as the minister.

 

If the minister is responsible for Film & Creative Industries and therefore should be the biggest booster for the film industry, and I would hope so, it's a good, important industry, I know there's too many departments in my opinion that have a finger on this. It's a creative industry so it's part of Economic Development, I suppose. It's for some reason being administered through the Department of Finance.

 

It doesn't have to be in the Department of Finance, certainly Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations does lots of credit programs and giving back cheques for all kinds of programs for government. Finance can do it, your own department here, Communities, Culture and Heritage, gives out lots of grants and contributions, has financial staff. I'm sure that within your own department you could centralize support for this industry and really be more in tune with what the needs are of this creative industry and more aware of the time frames that are required and understanding the players. You actually, as Minister of Culture, should know the players in the film industry. Therefore, I think it would be much more of a one-stop-shop because I think this is too diffused, I think it's confusing and I want to draw the minister's attention to the fact that last October a large list of filmmakers, film producers in this province, signed a letter to the Minister of Finance saying it's not working, you're not dealing effectively and efficiently with our applications and film productions are going elsewhere or are in danger of going elsewhere because you're not dealing with this.

 

The minister said she would do something about it and we still have a recent letter from a particular filmmaker who said that his entire project has been jeopardized and perhaps he won't be doing more filming here because of that.

 

I think it's a great opportunity in estimates that we can have this discussion and I hope the minister is already aware of it but since we've talked about this great flux of other services and other departments that perhaps should move their way into Communities, Culture and Heritage, I'd like to suggest that this is one area where you could provide some real support and real help to the film industry.

That's what I'm saying so I don't need to hear about how great they are, I know they're great. I'm saying they're struggling and they're struggling because they have, on one hand, a booster group like Communities, Culture and Heritage and, on the other hand, the Finance Department is making it difficult to fund films.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Member, would you like the minister to respond?

 

MS. WHALEN: I think that might just about be a good idea.

 

MR. PREYRA: The minister would be delighted to respond. Let me just go back to first principles; this government makes decision based in large part on a great deal of consultation, a great deal of engagement with the stakeholders. We work on a great deal of evidence-based research and things that you have talked about in the past, not liking strategies and consultations. That's an important part of how we develop public policy and it's an important part of how we developed our five-point plan for the arts and how we developed the Film & Creative Industries.

 

It's fine and good for us to say well you should take over and you should do it but our consultations on this told us, the stakeholders told us, that's not what they wanted. What they wanted was a stand-alone agency, Film & Creative Industries, that would deal with them as mature industries, at mature sectors that were part of the creative economy, in many ways much more valuable, much more successful, much more effective in developing the new economy, in terms of our economic development.

 

That message has been coming through for years, it hasn't been heard and we responded to it and said okay, we will create the Film & Creative Industries Nova Scotia. So for the suggestion to be made now saying oh, because I'm government and I know best, I'm going to now say we're going to send that back to Communities, Culture and Heritage really disregards the evidence, disregards the consultations, disregards the facts of what it is that the cultural communities, what the creative industries are asking us to do.

 

This agency is a creation of the - is a result of the pressures that were brought to bear by the sectors themselves, by the book publishers, by the digital animators, by the filmmakers. They thought they would get much more respect if they had an agency that treated them as mature industries that played an important part in the creative economy and we responded to that demand.

 

As far as I know, the film industry sees the tax credit as a big success story, that our industries, our film industries are booming, in part because of the tax credit, in part because we have very creative, very effective people, artists, who are working at the national and international level.

 

In our office we have not had anyone coming back and saying do away with the Film & Creative Industries group, do away with the film tax credit, we want Communities, Culture . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, Mr. Minister. Member, the minister has the floor.

 

MS. WHALEN: The minister is saying things that are false. I did not ever suggest that he give away the film industry tax. That is absolutely outrageous. I'm not going to continue to let him say false things while he has the floor. I asked a specific question about the process and . . .

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, member, the minister has the floor. I'd like to remind the minister that there are three minutes left in this round of questioning so if you would like to give the member another opportunity for a final question, the time is coming close.

 

MR. PREYRA: I would be happy to give the member an opportunity for a last question but I do want to say, and maybe I misunderstood the question, but I heard her suggesting that she wanted the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage to take over the responsibility of administering the film tax credit and the Film & Creative Industries and I was responding to that question.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Member, for your final comments or a question.

 

MS. WHALEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, it's very rare that I lose my temper here but I heard the suggestion that we should get rid of the film tax credit. We introduced the film tax credit when the Liberals were in government. It has been strengthened over time, with the support of all Parties. All Parties know that that has created an industry where there was none and it is outrageous to suggest that I'm saying get rid of it.

 

Obviously we need it, we fight with other provinces to have the best one and to bring people here. I can't help but be very upset to even hear that suggested and go on the record that we would even say that. I'm talking about a simple thing, the Finance Department isn't doing a good job with the film tax credit in dealing with the applications. I'm only asking you about a difficulty that's bothering the industry, which you are a promoter of. You promote the industry so as a member at the Cabinet Table, could you not administer the tax credit? Could you not do the paperwork?

 

That's all I'm asking, a simple question suggesting that you could perhaps intervene either with the Department of Finance or take over the credit, that's all. We're not saying ever to get rid of the credit and I would hope that that would never, ever be suggested again.

 

MR. PREYRA: Well I'm surprised to hear that the member would say that her Party created an industry where none existed. It is really just a surprise. Perhaps I did misunderstand her question, if she is suggesting in any way that we devolve again, despite what the community wants, despite what the stakeholders want. She knows as well as anyone else, she's a Finance Critic, that power follows money and when she said she wanted the money to go somewhere else, then of course it means that some other agency would have to be dealing with it.

 

I think there is a lot to be said for essentially responding to what the community is asking for and quite frankly, this is a hugely successful program, both the film industry and the digital animators. We were here not that long ago for the East Coast Music Awards and it's just a delight to see how our young artists are thriving on the national stage.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, minister. I think we've now reached the end of this round of questioning. This would move us to the Progressive Conservative caucus.

 

Is there an interest in taking a break at this moment or are you prepared to continue?

 

MR. PREYRA: No, I'd rather go on, Mr. Chairman.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. So we will move to the Progressive Conservative caucus for their round of questioning.

The honourable member for Victoria-The Lakes.

 

MR. KEITH BAIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all let me welcome and thank the minister and staff for being here this afternoon. Well, that was certainly quite the exchange that we just had. I think mine will be boring, in respect to that.

 

I do have a few questions and you'd probably be pleased to know that I probably won't be spending the full hour asking you questions. I want to go right to the estimates if I could, minister. The first one is on Page 4.2, Ordinary Recoveries. In that your department expected ordinary recoveries to more than double what was estimated last year and the 2012-13 forecast was lower than the estimate in last year's budget. So if the department overestimated recoveries last year, how is it responsible to expect they'll double again this year?

 

MR. PREYRA: Thank you very much for the question. The department didn't overestimate them, it was just in a process of reorganization, and in the process of reorganization, funds were moved in and out. It was something that could have been anticipated in the restructuring.

 

MR. BAIN: Also, still on Page 4.2, Culture and Heritage Development, an increase of more than $1 million. I'm going to apologize right off the top if I'm being repetitive in some of my questions but can you explain where this additional $1 million will be going?

 

MR. PREYRA: Just to give it a broader answer, it's not just $1 million increasing, there's a lot of money moving in and out of that envelope. The largest part of that increase, almost all of that increase, is in the support for a culture program. We've introduced this new program, it'll bring a significant amount of money into the department and into the cultural stream. It has been met with real delight by the members of the community. We will be talking very shortly about how that money would be disbursed.

 

To make this answer short for you, that is where the bulk of the money will come from.

 

MR. BAIN: So I'm assuming that this is to support the existing programs that are out there, as well as any new programs that will come forward?

 

MR. PREYRA: Yes, the plan is to strengthen some existing programs but also to add new issues and new developments that we have always wanted to cover. There has been a demand for it but we haven't had the money for it in the past. What we are doing over the new few weeks and days is to consult with the communities involved and essentially see where our money can be best spent and how it can be spent most effectively. Some of that money will be spent in the communities section. We're trying to breathe more life into that communities initiative and some of it will be used to develop that side of it. We will be breaking that down in the coming weeks, into much more specific information.

 

MR. BAIN: So, Mr. Minister, you mentioned new developments that you would like to bring forward, can you be more specific as to what those new developments might be?

 

MR. PREYRA: We're going to be talking more with the community in announcing it but I think - well, let me just give you my personal view; I've always been interested in artist-run spaces, for example. We have these wonderful spaces right across the province that are doing great work. They are run largely by volunteers, many of them young, emerging artists and they seem to be thriving but in a very sort of haphazard way. The suggestion has been that we try to think a little bit more about these incubating spaces - what kind of incentives can we provide, how can we help those spaces or those artists work a little better? It may be the kind of thing we would consider.

 

There has been a very long list of projects that people have talked about and initiatives; for example, the Mi'kmaq cultural groups have been saying why don't you help us do something similar to an African Heritage Month, for a Mi'kmaq Heritage Month? Those kinds of community-led initiatives, those kinds of cultural initiatives will be considered and become part of what we expect will be a really successful program.

 

MR. BAIN: But isn't your department already contributing to Mi'kmaq heritage activities? No? Not part of it?

 

MR. PREYRA: No, we don't have a formal structure. To me, it's a real sign. It's very encouraging to know that the Mi'kmaq community is starting to look more and more at the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage as one of those agencies that could help promote, encourage, nurture and develop Mi'kmaq heritage and Mi'kmaq culture. We would very much like to respond to that, but we haven't had a structured program before. There have been little episodic events where we've said we'll sponsor a particular group or a particular event, but the initiatives that are being brought forward are the things we're going to look at.

 

MR. BAIN: So basically, as far as the Mi'kmaq community is concerned - I think of Membertou and Wagmatcook - it has just been a grant program. Any funding they would have gotten from the department will just be a grant application for a special event or something like that at this point?

 

MR. PREYRA: Yes, as you know, most of these programs are funded through federal streams and much of our relationship with the communities has been conducted at an intergovernmental level - mostly looked at as governance issues. The Premier has said that he wants the individual departments to co-operate and work more effectively with the Aboriginal communities in particular sectors. If there is a way for us to get involved in education or economic development or culture, without spending a lot of time on the bureaucracy that goes with it, to say if we have a certain expertise, if we have staff in our departments, why not help make some of those things happen? So the department is looking at how we can be constructive but also respectful of the community in terms of what the community would like us to do.

 

It has been a real revelation for me to work with Chief Wilbert Marshall and the other chiefs. As you know, it's an act of faith on their part to say they're actually going to work with us and we don't want to do anything to jeopardize that.

 

MR. BAIN: I think that is an excellent way to go about things because the Mi'kmaq people have been excellent at informing - not only their own residents - but the Nova Scotia community of their heritage and culture. They've played such an integral part in the history of Nova Scotia, long before we were ever here. I think the fact that it's being recognized, it's probably something that should have been done a long time ago. I think there has to be a sense of awareness with all the band councils throughout Nova Scotia that this is where the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage is going, and the offer be made and communicated that, look, we have programs that could suit you.

 

MR. PREYRA: I think you're exactly right. Another strategy we're trying to pursue is to see if we can tell the Mi'kmaq story in an organized and constructive way to link up the various sites; to do it in a coherent and consistent way. We're looking at those kinds of things as well, in much the same way as African Heritage Month is telling those stories right across the province and bringing one consistent set of themes. We're thinking about tourism, economic development or education, but doing that as well.

 

MR. BAIN: I think that telling the Mi'kmaq story has to be told by the Mi'kmaq themselves.

 

MR. PREYRA: Precisely.

 

MR. BAIN: The way they go about it would have to - they'd have to be the ones to determine, in fairness to the Mi'kmaq people, the way it should be done and presented.

 

Page 4.4 - and again, I'm going to apologize that maybe the honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park might have asked this, it is Archives, Museums and Libraries - the Executive Director receiving an increase of $1.2 million more than the 2012-13 forecast, I just wonder if you could provide me with the background of that decision.

 

MR. PREYRA: As I said earlier, the executive director refers to the Office of the Executive Director, not the executive director. It would be a very well paid executive director if it was $3 million. It is the amortization in 2012-13 we had budgeted $1.2 million that wasn't used and in 2013-14 we are budgeting $2.068 million, so the variance there is $868,000, but it is the amortization of the Bluenose II money that is included.

 

Again, as I said earlier, those operational monies are included with the executive director because the executive director is the one responsible for that money.

 

MR. BAIN: Sorry to be jumping around, I'll go back to Page 4.2 . . .

 

MR. PREYRA: This is easier.

 

MR. BAIN: Departmentally funded staff, last year the need was estimated at 236 FTEs but the forecast only shows 205 were needed. I guess my question would be, why is the estimate for funded staff so high again this year?

 

MR. PREYRA: In 2012-13 the estimate was 236 and in 2013-14 the estimate is 232, so a reduction of four. The 205 figure in the forecast is just a movement of people during the restructuring of the department, so the positions were not filled, people were waiting in line for the positions to be filled so you ended up with a little bit of a time lag there.

 

MR. BAIN: So you are saying that the 205 number is because there were people taken out of the department who transferred to other departments?

 

MR. PREYRA: Yes, it's just that there were temporary vacancies in the department while those positions were being moved around and filled.

 

MR. BAIN: Page 4.3, Communities Nova Scotia is nearly $700,000 higher than forecast. I guess what I'm wondering is can you explain what the increase means, in practical terms? Communities Nova Scotia, Page 4.3.

 

MR. PREYRA: As I said earlier, one of the things we're trying to do with the communities unit is to look across government at various departments that are doing things that are related to communities. Education has something, Economic and Rural Development and Tourism has something. Essentially what we're trying to do is do a little more of the consolidation of that money, so that not all of the departments are spending on community development, for example. This new money is a transfer of money that has come into the department from Economic and Rural Development and Tourism, it's a Strategic Funding Initiative - $750,000.

 

MR. BAIN: Well it's because previously if a community hall or community centre was applying for funding they would apply through Economic and Rural Development and Tourism but now they apply to Communities, Culture and Heritage.

 

MR. PREYRA: Yes, and you know there will probably be more of that as we identify those programs. Some of it will come in and some of it will go out. Where those programs are housed will change but we are trying to do a little bit less duplication and overlap across government and this is an example of that.

 

MR. BAIN: I guess when you look at the funding for community halls or community centres, whatever the case might be, can you speak of the uptake on applications that are going in? Are they increasing - the requests that are coming from community organizations?

 

MR. PREYRA: That's a really good question. One of the things you see travelling across the province is the number of community spaces, including churches. They want to remain true to their mission; they want to do what their faith requires of them or expects of them. They want to do the service that their community members have done for years - whether it's a rotary club or those kinds of service organizations. They have infrastructure challenges. They have problems with roofs, windows and floors, and they want to make their buildings more energy efficient. There is quite a demand right across the system and we couldn't possibly meet all the demand.

 

Through the Community Jobs and Facilities Improvement Program, which is the one I think you're referring to, we have been able to support large numbers right across the province, right across the regions. The uptake was just great. We couldn't possibly meet all of the demands. I could give you more of the criteria. I could identify specific groups if you're interested, but I think you're asking me in general whether or not there was an increase, and yes.

 

Most of the applications have spoken to energy-related improvements - accessibility, building ramps and things like that - fixing roofs. In the department, we've essentially asked - to what extent does this application meet the real needs of the community? How many people are being served and how sustainable is this project? How effective will it be? Those have been the guiding criteria for the grants and which ones have got it. I'm sure in your community you're well aware of the need and how much unmet need there is. Up to March 25, 2013, we had 173 recipients across the province. I could break those down for you, if you want.

 

MR. BAIN: In Cape Breton, when community facility grants were being looked for they went through the ERDT office in Sydney. I guess my question would be - we have two representatives now who are in the Department of Economic and Rural Development and Tourism in the Sydney area - what about contact? Does your department have a representative serving your department in the Sydney/Cape Breton area or do they deal directly with Halifax?

 

MR. PREYRA: Communications is always an issue and we found that, for example, we would have sent your office information about the community jobs, how you apply for them, the criteria and that has been a really effective way of doing it. It has strengthened the role of the MLAs there as well. We are trying very hard to reach people broadly. We put our advertisements, for example, that the community jobs are there, but the actual handling of the applications has been done in the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage office.

 

MR. BAIN: So there is no department representative from the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage serving Cape Breton in place in Cape Breton?

 

MR. PREYRA: Not in Cape Breton, but we have people within the department who are dealing with it. Craig Beaton, for example, is in our department - you'd be familiar with him. We have used social media a lot. We've used the Internet a lot and communicated with groups generally.

 

MR. BAIN: Is there an intent within the department to have a person designated in the Cape Breton area, from your department?

 

MR. PREYRA: It's something to look at. I think we'll monitor our program and see how it's working. We're constantly getting feedback from community groups that are being served or not being served. Certainly you, as the MLA, can also give us some feedback on that.

 

So far, people seem to be saying more about the grant itself and how they apply for it. The Internet is a wonderful thing but some of these groups are not actually at that level and so we have to reach them as well. Hopefully the agencies that we have there will be able to help them as well and say this grant used to be at Economic and Rural Development and Tourism but it's now going to be at Communities, Culture and Heritage. We can forward it to you and we ourselves could use that but largely we're using the MLA offices, as I would communicate with you that we are dealing with an application or you would send something.

 

MR. BAIN: The only reason I bring that up, the possibility of having a member of the department in the Cape Breton area, and I'll use examples that I'm familiar with, that community organizations might apply for funding for a community hall, the fact that there's someone on the ground in Cape Breton, they actually will meet with some of the individuals, through Economic and Rural Development and Tourism, when the grant applications were going in.

 

There's more of a hands-on approach, I think, to the - and I realize that when you're looking at 173 applications you can't have a hands-on approach with every one of them.

 

MR. PREYRA: Those are 173 recipients.

 

MR. BAIN: Yes, that is not counting the number of applications. I say that, asking possibly that the department might consider at some future time - and I suppose you'll base it on what the update might be in certain areas but I give that to you for consideration.

 

MR. PREYRA: Let me just speak to that, you are exactly right. Ideally we would want to go and sometimes we do. I know that the people at the Annapolis Royal Gardens had an application in at one time and we looked at it and thought well, the gardens. Then we got an invitation that said why don't you come down and have a look. I did have a look at it and then I realized exactly what it was they were doing, so we were able to get our heads around that a little bit and were able to help out.

 

Most applications really stand on their own. People will send us pictures and say this is what our roof looks like, so you don't really need a lot of evidence for it. We will also call people up and say could you give us a better picture of it? It's not a substitute for being there but we do, especially if we're going to reject an application, to say tell us a little more about it or provide it, tell us how sustainable this project is. We often will work something out.

 

When you're cutting the size of government, when you're cutting the reach of government, you're cutting all kinds of things. The things that often get lost in it is that contact with people.

 

MR. BAIN: I think that's one of the things that has been lost and with Economic and Rural Development and Tourism the change that they don't look after a lot of those grant applications now is the advice and the very fact that they can see the actual structure. Anyway, I'm not going to - that's only a suggestion for your department to consider.

 

MR. PREYRA: They do travel, I'm not saying they don't travel, it's just you are saying we should travel more, maybe even have satellite offices.

 

MR. BAIN: You could probably save a lot of money if there was less travelling than a body in a place.

 

MR. PREYRA: I hear you.

 

MR. BAIN: Just a couple more, Mr. Chairman, if I could; Page 4.6, Gaelic Affairs, I realize that African Nova Scotian Affairs and Gaelic Affairs, there's a $17,000 cut, I believe, in the budget for Gaelic Affairs. Two questions: why, and what programs will suffer as a result of that $17,000 cut?

 

MR. PREYRA: I think that's just what we have seen across government. Some of it is vacancy management and using that process a little more efficiently. It was sharing services across the various divisions and within the department and I had talked earlier about communications, for example. It's part of doing more with less and doing things more efficiently.

 

MR. BAIN: So will let that cut - and I realize it's $17,000 - but will it have an effect on any programs at the Gaelic Affairs Office?

 

MR. PREYRA: No, we haven't cut programs directly but one way of saving those programs and doing it is through efficiency, vacancy management and those kinds of things. I think that's true across the board, we've tried to save programs and not have those programs suffer because they are pretty important to the communities they serve.

 

MR. BAIN: Thank you for that, minister. I'm going to bring up something in my last question that I know the deputy is aware of because I brought it up last year and I don't know if things might have changed or not in the past year. I did bring up an erosion issue at a United Church cemetery in Ingonish. This cemetery was and continues to be a vital part of the heritage of that area. Coastal erosion has resulted in a great deal of the land being lost and a lot of the older, if I can say, graves are being threatened.

 

I'm sure the minister can appreciate the problems facing, whether it's churches or community cemeteries, to raise funds just to maintain the cemeteries that are there, whether it's landscaping or the mowing and everything else. They have no control over coastal erosion but they would like to have control over preserving the heritage that is in these cemeteries.

 

I guess my question, in closing, is whether or not there's anywhere in the department's budget to provide assistance for a cemetery like the United Church cemetery in Ingonish?

 

MR. PREYRA: This is not the first time this issue has arisen. There are cemeteries all across Nova Scotia and one of them was just identified in Dartmouth and some of Dartmouth's leading citizens were buried there and people don't even know who owns the property around it. We are losing that part of our heritage and we're trying to figure out how to do it and how to identify sites that need to be saved and marked and restored.

 

One of the things we're looking at in the whole support for culture initiative is to put a little more money into that part of the heritage and heritage conservation. I don't know enough about the particular cemetery you are talking about. It sounds like something we won't be able to control, if it involves rising water levels or water erosion but I'd be happy to look into it and see what we can do. Next time I'm in Ingonish maybe we can have a look at it.

 

MR. BAIN: I can certainly take you there. I guess the concern is it's going to be a very costly venture for them to do it. The committee that looks after the cemetery has very little funds, which is realistic in today's world, I think. They are looking at the possibility there could be - they even had a contractor look at it, to save what's left is what they're talking about. It could be in the vicinity as high at $80,000.

 

I guess my question is, is there an application process that this group could go through or should there be a letter sent to the department and further investigation done by the department to say whether that might be looked at?

 

MR. PREYRA: In a lot of those cases - including the ones you were talking about earlier with the facilities improvement - often there are other government programs that we can look at to provide support. Without making any commitments - because I don't know the cemetery you're talking about - the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, for example, has access to technology, equipment and things like that, that can provide some kind of in-kind support. The Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations could deal with municipal issues relating to erosion or construction of particular infrastructure.

 

There are often little programs across other departments, too, that might be able to help and sometimes in the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage we identify those and say - have you looked at Efficiency Nova Scotia to deal with your heating issues, rather than looking at this program or maybe we can help with some of the grading or something like that.

 

I don't know what the possibilities are there, but people can always apply to our department and - as I began when I was talking about communities - we can help with navigation. We can help with pointing people in the right direction and we might not have the money or we might not be able to do it ourselves, but we certainly know our way through the system and we have a very effective deputy who sits on a number of interdepartmental committees and she would certainly be our eyes and ears in terms of what is happening in other departments.

 

MR. BAIN: I just want to in closing thank the minister for that reassurance that at least if a request comes in, it will be looked at and decided from there what directions the people might take. The very fact that I think there has to be somebody it has to go to and it seems only fitting that it be your department that the initial request go.

 

MR. PREYRA: Yes, I'd like to see it myself actually. I don't need much of an excuse to get to Ingonish.

 

MR. BAIN: You can probably rest assured you'll have it in your hands next week. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and thank you to the minister for taking the time to answer those questions.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any plan for the PC caucus to finish this round?

 

MR. BAIN: No, there is not.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll go back to the Liberal caucus.

 

The honourable member for Kings West.

 

MR. LEO GLAVINE: Most of my questions will be around gambling since that's one of the minister's responsibilities as well, but first of all, I do have a question, triggered by my colleague, the member for Victoria-The Lakes around cemeteries.

 

I recently had a letter come to my office and I've been using the Legislative Library to get some background on it. There was a very historical and kind of community foundation cemetery in the community of Tremont. The church there has been decommissioned from its traditional Baptist roots. The community group that has been looking after the cemetery posed the basic question around whether or not there is any government agency that takes over or looks after cemeteries if, in fact, they are no longer going to be looked after or maintained by a church or community group. Again, to that Valley community, the cemetery obviously has historical and traditional importance.

 

I'm just wondering if the minister knows of anything in that regard in terms of any government agency that would at least have knowledge that it has been - or is there such a process of turning it back to the province with its books and any assets and so on that it may have?

 

MR. PREYRA: It's a good question and I don't know if you know but my father was a Catholic deacon and my father-in-law was a Presbyterian minister so I spent a lot of my growing-up years in churches. I'm a political scientist as well so I have a particular attachment to historical places. Cemeteries tell an early, important part of the story of that community and that congregation's life. In many ways that's all that community has, the gravestones that are there. The population is aging and those families in many ways - those families no longer live there, they've moved elsewhere and there aren't very many people there who can take care of individual grave sites.

 

At the same time you have churches that are land-rich but they're cash-poor, not too many people in the pews, so the question is how do you find money to do the mission of your congregation and to keep the faith and what do you keep and what do you get rid of when you are trying to save that money? We've seen it right across Nova Scotia, the congregations have just not been able to support the infrastructure that they have. It has been a real tragedy for those remaining few behind.

It has been a challenge for the churches themselves and the synagogues and the places of worship, people are not as religious as they once were, families aren't as big as they once were and it has caused a lot of internal dissent within those congregations as well. You are right, how do we deal with that, how do we decide what we keep and what we preserve? Whose responsibility it is is a huge issue. I know in our department it's a constant struggle, not just with cemeteries, with books, with archival information, with museums, with historic homes and all that, how do we keep all of the assets we have.

 

I know I'm not quite answering your question but I would think that power or responsibility would reside principally with our department.

 

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you, minister. If that community spokesperson - I did provide them with some information that I have researched, with the help of the Legislative Library, but if there's anything further I'll get in touch with your department so thank you for that.

 

In terms of the gambling questions, last year the minister took over the responsibility for the province's Responsible Gaming Strategy and it produced a document on March 25, 2011. In that document on Page 8 it stated it would "migrate the conduct-and-manage function for gambling from the NSGC to a division within the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage." I'm wondering if that migration has taken place.

 

MR. PREYRA: Yes, the migration has taken place and I should have done this earlier but I've been joined by Bob MacKinnon, who is the person who would be most knowledgeable in my department and is my right-hand person on these issues.

 

MR. GLAVINE: So when you say it has taken place, are you now referencing the fact that all aspects and functions have been transferred over?

 

MR. PREYRA: Yes, it's still a corporation but the board of directors is located within the department.

 

MR. GLAVINE: I was wondering if you could provide me with any information as to whether or not it is an exact organizational structure or whether, in fact, there have been some changes in terms of the reporting process?

 

MR. PREYRA: The board chairman is the deputy minister and I think the larger purpose behind that was to bring it into closer control of the department - a little bit more oversight and the management functions that fall within the department itself. The team of deputies essentially is the group that leads that management and the idea behind that is to provide for a little bit more of the interdepartmental sensibilities that go into governing this industry.

 

MR. GLAVINE: Have there been any new hires in the department since then or during the transitional period?

 

MR. PREYRA: Yes, we have a senior executive who works as a liaison between the corporation and the executive. That's the only one.

 

MR. GLAVINE: Just to, I guess, the more practical, on-the-ground aspects - and I really appreciate the information provided by Bob when I had some questions earlier this year. One of the things that has taken place that Audrey Shields with the Valley Health Authority, who has been a wonderful advocate of gambling awareness and information flow, one of the things that her information and the local community health board were somewhat disturbed by was the fact that very quietly the department changed regulations around a premises that had VLTs and when they went out of business that would mean those VLTs would be pulled. Now, however, if there is even a considerable delay in the process of a business terminating and a new business starting up, those machines can simply stay with the business.

 

There seemed to be some wonderment about what the process is now that will decide that these VLTs in a premises - a bar, sports bar or Legion - will they no longer be maintained, especially when in this case there wasn't continuity of the business? The practice in the past was that those VLTs were taken out. In this case, they were not taken out even though the business was not operating for some time and now a new owner has come in. People seem to be confused around what the process would be for the termination of the VLTs.

 

MR. PREYRA: I think I understand your question. Let me just speak at the beginning in a general way. The policy has been and is that if a business is under renovation, for example, where significant changes are being made to that location, then the ability to keep those machines remains. Where a business changes hands - is sold - then there is no change there. However, the conditions of the licence will always remain in play. We will always look at the criteria that have been established for the provision of a casino licence and whether it's a new business, an existing business or a prospective business, they still have to meet those conditions. Where they no longer meet the conditions, then that will change their ability to have them.

 

There has not been any change in that way, if a business closes down then those VLTs are lost with that.

 

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you. I was just wondering if you could provide me with the data here on the number of VLTs over the past four years. I ask that question primarily because we have seen you know population in our communities, especially in our rural communities in Nova Scotia - in fact all but one county now has lost population over the last five years - but yet the VLTs in many of our communities have remained at the same number and I'm just wondering in fact what is the trending and the current pattern that exists in the province?

MR. PREYRA: I am advised there has been a significant drop in the number of VLTS, as we pursue our attrition policy. Since July 2011, 36 terminals have been removed across the system. There were 2,234 last year so we have reduced by 36 since July 29, 2011, so it's going down.

 

MR. GLAVINE: In terms of the Aboriginal communities, I would say it's probably going in the other direction. I was wondering if you could provide that statistical picture for the last couple of years.

 

MR. PREYRA: I'm not exactly sure if it's going up because I know a number of Aboriginal communities have said they would like to move VLTs from one place to the other because they have not been as successful. The numbers are fixed at 2,198 under an agreement with the Office of Aboriginal Affairs and 581 is what the First Nations have.

 

As far as whether they're going up or down, I could have another look at them but it's not my impression that they're going up.

 

MR. GLAVINE: But there wouldn't be a limit, however, on the number set for the Aboriginal communities?

 

MR. PREYRA: It's by agreement.

 

MR. GLAVINE: So it is by an agreement, okay, but they could actually move around, though, to different sites or is that also determined that they would have to be in those established sites?

 

MR. PREYRA: There are numbers within the bands themselves but by agreement, they're not able to move them around. What I was saying was that they are asking to do it but as you know, there's a great deal of community sensitivity around gaming and we want to make sure that the Responsible Gaming Strategy continues to govern those activities. Where they are located is just as important as how many are located.

 

MR. GLAVINE: In terms of the Responsible Gaming Strategy, what is the amount of money that is being put into awareness, education and in supporting those in the addicted community with program support? I know a place like Crosbie House has been getting support, I'm wondering what that figure is year over year - has it been maintained, reduced or is there some additional support?

 

MR. PREYRA: Let me just give you a general comment as well on responsible gaming. As you know, the largest strategy behind the Responsible Gaming Strategy is to reduce the access that vulnerable, sort of high-risk people, have to the system. We have put controls in place. There is a fair amount of debate as to what that number is but I think around 5 per cent of the population involved would be considered vulnerable. The Responsible Gaming Strategy is aimed at reducing their access, if not eliminating their access, to VLTs in particular.

One of the most important elements of that strategy is the use of the My-Play System, where everyone who is playing it has to become more aware of their gaming habits. Evidence suggests that people who know how much they are gambling or who set limits on how much they intend to gamble are less likely to fall into that category. The vast majority of people who do it are doing it for some temporary entertainment but, at the same time, we want them to be aware of their habits and reduce their risk of them overspending or overextending themselves in this field.

 

We have a number of initiatives aimed at reducing that risk. Essentially it's a harm reduction strategy; we know that these machines will be out there, there are still grey machines and with the Internet, it just has created far more opportunities to gamble.

 

Part of the Responsible Gaming Strategy is carried out by the Department of Health and Wellness, the Health Research Foundation, which looks carefully at what is going on in the field. Addictions and mental health are issues that are part of this industry. Those two functions were separated largely because we need an arm's length department which is, in fact, monitoring what's going on in that field.

 

In terms of investments in responsible gaming, some of that investment comes through My-Play, some of it comes through education and marketing, some of it comes through the Department of Health and Wellness, Health Research Foundation. Interestingly enough it seems from some of the mail you get that it's the Tobacco Control Strategy that has had just as much impact on our Responsible Gaming Strategy as anything else because people have to get up and go outside and they can't keep their machines going, so there's quite a large component to that.

 

MR. GLAVINE: In terms of the My-Play System, the province decided that they would accept the minimal level of control and monitoring. I'm wondering if there's any way in which you have studied or taken a look at the effectiveness of My-Play Light versus the stronger version that is also available to put on the machines?

 

MR. PREYRA: Well the My-Play System is mandatory at the moment so it wouldn't be considered light. I mean if you talk to the people in the sectors, they're saying you're going too far and you need to reduce it.

 

You're right, it's something that is worth looking at. We are looking at the My-Play System in part because we want to make sure, as I was saying earlier, we want to reach the people that we want to reach and that is the most vulnerable people. The people in the sector are saying that My-Play can be fine-tuned in a way that those who are most vulnerable and most at risk are reduced and eliminated, but without affecting people who are just playing it in transition.

 

We are looking really seriously at the My-Play System to see how we can improve it, but most of it revolves around getting people to participate more actively in the My-Play system; getting business owners in particular to have more of a stake in enrolling people in the My-Play System. Yes, ideally we would like to have full enrolment and what we're looking at is how do we go about creating incentives for full enrolment both among the players and among the owners?

 

As I said earlier, most of these programs are continuously being revised and reviewed and the core principle of the Responsible Gaming Strategy was to deal with the at-risk, the vulnerable people and make sure that we can reduce their participation in it. There seemed to be a lot of myths about the My-Play System that we need to address as well. One of the bigger ones is that we're monitoring the actual activities of individuals and it's like Big Brother is watching you or your spouse is going to know exactly how much you're going to be using. Gamers by nature are risk-takers and speculators and it's part of their make-up that they think something else is happening and so trying to engage in a public education program that says to them - we're really just trying to get you to pay attention to how much you're spending on gaming and to make you aware of it. Really, we're much more interested in making sure people are aware of their habits and the risky ones are removed from the system.

 

There is still work to be done in My-Play but it has been quite successful in reducing the amount of revenues. There has been quite a significant decline in VLT revenues. It's down 16 per cent and that is in large part because of the working of the My-Play System and so we are fine-tuning it.

 

The other thing about the My-Play System is that it's local technology and it's something that we want to improve and they want to improve because there are other countries and other systems that might be able to adopt and it will become part of an economic development strategy, but the guiding principle behind that is how to develop a socially responsible gaming strategy that keeps the fun in it, but eliminates the riskier types of activity that are attached to it.

 

MR. GLAVINE: In that regard of dealing with that 10 to 15 per cent who are problem or moderately problem gamblers, you've announced that there will be a socio-economic impact study. I'm wondering if this study will have the same kind of criteria as the Anielski Report or will this be one developed by the Health Research Foundation, and is that instrument for carrying out the study already in place or is it something that will continue to develop within the department?

 

I know that socio-economic impact study can be a good source of information in developing appropriate and effective public policy. I'm wondering if the criteria are similar to what 2009 had or will this be something developed within the department that will, in fact, have some similar features?

 

MR. PREYRA: Just to correct those figures on problem gaming, we have fairly solid evidence and research that we have used and continue to refine that show that 0.8 per cent are in a high-risk category of gaming and 2.3 per cent are at moderate risk, so that the figure we've actually seen is 3.1 per cent. I use the figure 5.5 per cent but 5 per cent is still something that we ought to be concerned about. That's why we have this Responsible Gaming Strategy, that's why we have My-Play, that's why we have a lot of research being conducted, really just to deal principally with that 5 per cent but to make sure that the others also are more aware of their habits.

 

In terms of the research itself, the policy in this field is dealt with largely through evidence-based research, particularly evidence that is solid, is developed by arm's-length agencies and things that you can rely on for public policy making. The Health Research Foundation has been the one proposed for this body, has proposed the protocol based on high standards but based on standards that would be acceptable in the scholarly community, in the health community, so we're going to see that research over the next few years. They're going to address the elements of the Responsible Gaming Strategy and the gaming industry itself but I think the bottom line is we know there are risks involved, we know there are vulnerable people and families and communities.

 

We can't just rest on what we have and say that everything is okay. We need to have bodies like the Health Research Foundation be constantly vigilant and eternally sort of alert, pointing to issues and challenges and new strategies as they emerge. It is something that is important to Nova Scotians, it's important to us and we will continue over the years to spend a lot of money on research, on consultation and constantly adopt best practices and constantly try to reduce the harm done to people. I think we will see a lot more of this.

 

MR. GLAVINE: In terms of your Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage, does your department bring about some of that cross-department work, for example, with the district health authorities? I know it would be a very natural part of the Health Research Foundation but does your department deal with the DHAs? Again, they're out in the communities, they know the communities, they know the kind of education information that is needed and, in fact, I know in our area, as the chairman is familiar with, we have a couple of people who do an excellent job in that regard, you know our one very vigilant monitor and again I think have a very balanced perspective in how they approach their work.

 

I'm just wondering if you do, however, deal directly with the DHAs in any of your programming?

 

MR. PREYRA: The question of the interdepartmental committee is a good one because it's an important part of the Responsible Gaming Strategy. Right across government, not just in this particular area, we have seen challenges related to silos - one department doing something that another department doesn't know about or could have helped with. We have been trying to break down those silos right across the Public Service and gaming is one of those areas where there are a number of departments that can be partners in helping to deal with issues relating to it. My Deputy Minister, Laura Lee Langley is chairman of that committee and a number of relevant departments are at that table. The Department of Health and Wellness is one of those and at the moment Kevin McNamara is the Department of Health and Wellness representative.

 

The Department of Health and Wellness is without a doubt the lead department when it comes to dealing with addictions. It is kind of our tentacle out there for us. It's an advance warning system for us in terms of what is happening with the system and what is being dealt with at the Capital District Health Authority and the boards related to them are also very good for navigating and channelling information to us. So we are relying more and more on that type of horizontal flow of information across the system.

 

The department really doesn't have the resources to do all of that and we harness the abilities of people across the department. I talked earlier about the Health Research Foundation and its work in monitoring and advising the research projects, but I think the district health authorities and the health boards are an early warning system to us and Mr. McNamara and the other deputies are part of that system. Certainly my deputy minister and I talk regularly and Mr. MacKinnon and I talk regularly about what is happening in the system because Mr. MacKinnon also spends a fair amount of time dealing with other agencies and our partners in New Brunswick, PEI, and Newfoundland and Labrador. What we're talking about is not just a Nova Scotia coordination - it is right across.

 

I was at a meeting at ALC in Moncton last month and Nova Scotia is leading the way in terms of its Responsible Gaming Strategy, in terms of monitoring what's going on. It is something that we're very proud of and we're very interested in exporting to the provinces and I wouldn't be surprised if there is interest outside Nova Scotia in responsible gaming. I don't exactly know how we can address some of those other interdepartmental issues without having committees like the interdepartmental committees. There is a committee of senior officials as well who meet to coordinate, advise and warn - the usual reasons why we have committees of deputies and senior officials. It's working reasonably well, but we'll continue to see what we can do to improve it.

 

MR. GLAVINE: Just a few final questions. I was wondering about how you view where the Sydney Casino future lies. I know that there is tremendous competition from Membertou, which has a different set of regulations that guide their operations. I'm wondering - is it on solid footing there? How have revenues been for the last couple of years?

 

MR. PREYRA: The Sydney Casino, we've been looking at that. There hasn't been any significant change over the last few years. In 2005 and 2006 it was $21.3 million and it has fluctuated, you know, $21.3 million, $23 million, $22.8 million, $23 million, $22.3 million, $22.1 million, $21.8 million and it's $20.8 million.

 

To deal with your larger question, it is facing a lot of competition. The real competition is not from Membertou, the real competition is from on-line gaming, a whole range of other options that people have, not the least of which is general entertainment dollar. It's not clear where that world is going or where casinos fit in that world but at the moment it's stable. We are keeping an eye on those developments as well.

 

MR. GLAVINE: I think I've just about finished up. I didn't get the answer for one question and I think it was early on, I'm wondering if there is the same amount of expenditure in your department towards the responsible gambling initiative, in terms of education and awareness, through all the way from schools to what's on-site at the casinos, what comes through in terms of TV advertising. I'm just wondering if the same dollar is there in terms of that initiative.

 

MR. PREYRA: Yes, it's roughly the same, it's all within the range of the general across-department cuts that we've been making. I'm sorry, I've been told it has gone up a small amount. There also are a lot of other initiatives across the departments that we are looking at in terms of education. There certainly has been nothing in terms of a significant cut, if that's what you're asking.

 

MR. GLAVINE: That's right because you did hit on a very key area which is changing the whole entertainment in terms of gambling and that is the on-line component. Certainly that's where our youth and our younger population are perhaps heading in the greatest percentage. I'm wondering if the programs that are in schools are targeting that whole on-line piece because they're less likely to be using some of the other casinos or going to bars in the same frequency as the older population.

 

MR. PREYRA: Well, you know you're a teacher and we're dealing with all kinds of issues this week and they relate to the cyberworld. The question about how we educate people, how we teach people to deal with each other and how to deal with the opportunities they have to communicate with each other is a massive challenge for us. You know, no sooner do we find one way of dealing with an issue we come up with something else.

 

Kids these days are exposed to so much information to a certain extent, I mean I don't know where the world is going when it comes to gaming. I know my son in particular grew up with gaming. He loves games, for him gaming is part of his nature and he wouldn't for one moment contemplate gambling, right, but I'm not sure what keeps some people from moving from that gaming world into a gambling world. Certainly I know when I was growing up I didn't know what gaming was - playing checkers and chess and things like that, right?

 

I think it's a question for us, you know, what is going to happen to all those young kids who have grown up in the Internet world and who have grown up with gaming and does this access to new, on-line gaming pose a greater risk or are they already so savvy about the world of gaming that they're not going to get sucked into it?

 

The question you are asking is about education programs; you're right, we have to start them early and we have to make sure that they're effective. The world of addictions and mental health are completely different worlds than even gaming and I think that's a world that most of us don't understand.

 

I know the chairman has talked to me many, many times about the issues relating to mental illness and how do we catch people with mental illness and treat them and deal with their addictions and how do we prevent that. It's a completely different level of education than the standard education system but I think we are on the front end of this on-line, digital world and we have to be careful about, particularly the young people who are entering into the world.

 

That being said, as an aside, I walked through the casino in Halifax a couple of weeks ago and I was surprised at how many older women there are in the casino. It was a revelation to me because you have this certain stereotype about gamers and you talk about young children but I don't know, maybe we should be looking at older women and how we educate that group. That's why the Health Research Foundation data is so important to us, it is to deal with some of these stereotypes and some of these assumptions and say, hold on a second, this is where you need to devote your resources to because this is where the real problem lies.

 

It's a long answer to your question but I think your instincts are right, we should start with kids and education. I think that might be another study to be done if we're not already doing it.

 

MR. GLAVINE: I want to thank the minister and Deputy Langley and Mr. MacKinnon for their responses to my questions, so thank you.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth North.

 

MR. TREVOR ZINCK: Mr. Chairman, if you could tell me how much time is left in the hour.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: We have time and we don't have another person at the table at this point so you can use as much of the next hour as you wish.

 

MR. ZINCK: Thank you. I want to welcome the minister and his staff. Actually, Bob, if you wanted to stay I'm going to stay on the gambling theme here.

 

Mr. Minister, in your previous comments to my colleague you made mention, I believe, that VLT revenue is down 16 per cent. I'm wondering if you can justify whether or not you can attribute that to fewer people using the VLTs or more people being responsible, because of the My-Play implementation?

 

MR. PREYRA: I think that's a very good question. It's one of the things we're trying to do with our research, to look at - well the general idea behind the Responsible Gaming Strategy is to know more about why people play, how they play, to understand better what the flow in and out of the industry is.

 

The actual ability to break these things down and to actually disentangle those numbers and to attribute kind of causal relationship, to say this 16 per cent drop happened because this particular initiative was taken is very difficult to prove. I suspect that - well, the My-Play System has pretty clearly had a significant effect on players because we have a bit of a control mechanism in that if you look at what's happening in New Brunswick and P.E.I. and Newfoundland and Labrador, you see significant differences in our numbers.

So you can go to looking for other explanations, you can say economic conditions are bad. I don't know whether good or bad economic conditions make for more or less play but I'm sure there is some kind of causal link between economic development and whether or not people will use money for particular reasons. Generally in recreation the less money people have for leisure, the less activity there is in that area.

 

It's not something we can say with any scientific rigour, other than to say that the My-Play System has had a pretty significant effect on the number of people playing and those numbers can probably be verified.

 

What we're trying to do with My-Play is to understand it a little more and to refine it a little more in terms of getting owners to get more people to register, particularly in the full registration and to create different kinds of conditions in the areas, so there's recreation, there's food, there's all kinds of other things going on so it's generally entertainment and it's not a way of exploiting vulnerable people. That's one thing we're looking at.

 

We're looking at how we can create incentives for people to participate on their own and to make it. Maybe education is part of that, to say, you know, if you really are concerned about your well-being, maybe you should find out how much you are gambling. Of course it's required, it's mandatory that people register so they have to do it, but to create that culture where people say okay, I'm going to fill out this card and I'm going to be responsible in monitoring my own activity.

 

The general idea behind My-Play has been not to just reduce the numbers of people but it has been to reduce the numbers of people who are problem gamblers and to make it something that becomes part of the whole Responsible Gaming Strategy.

 

MR. ZINCK: So there are two options when a patron walks into an establishment with the VLTs, full enrolment and light enrolment. What would be the advantage for somebody if they wanted to do the full enrolment? My experience in talking with a lot of the business owners is that the majority of the patrons are using the light enrolment. As a matter of fact, you'll often see a lot of patrons will use numerous cards. Maybe that's a superstition that the machine is tracking a certain card with a certain number. What would be the advantage for somebody to go through the full enrolment process?

MR. PREYRA: Well the biggest advantage with full enrolment is the quality of information people have about their habits and the degree of control they have over it; you use one card with all of that information, you set limits on yourself, you can track that over an extended period of time. You effectively have much more knowledge about what you yourself are doing when you are at that machine. I think when you see the numbers, then it becomes much clearer.

 

I, for example, a few years ago was looking at my budget - you eat out too much, you eat out far more often. Going day to day you don't really notice it but if you had a little line in your Visa statement, for example, that says I'm going to put all your restaurant billings in one place or I'm going to put all your gas in one section and you see what you spend on food and gas and things like that, it makes you much more aware of it and you say wow, I didn't know all those little trips were adding up to quite a significant expense.

 

I think that's the general principle behind the full enrolment, we want people to know over a long period of time what they are actually spending. If they lose the card they can retrieve their data and really, if they want, they can probably show it to other people. If they have issues, they might be able to learn something from that. The biggest incentive is for them to enjoy playing it, if it's really just recreational. If they are crossing the line, in terms of the lines they themselves set, then they will know it and they will know it in good enough time and it will set off an alarm bell for them because it is providing them with more information.

 

It's our hope that we will get more and more people doing the full enrolment and I think that is part of what we will be looking at - what kinds of incentives can we create to have people enroll fully?

 

MR. ZINCK: I know that early on with the initial implementation that there was a coupon incentive to get people to enroll going around to some of the businesses. There was also a rumour at one point - and you can correct me if I'm wrong and this is part of the question that I'm going to lead into - that eventually the light enrolment option would be eliminated and full enrolment would be required. Is the province considering making that just the only option for the VLT players - full enrolment?

 

MR. PREYRA: I must say that I have mixed feelings about certain kinds of incentives that are used for enrolment - whether it's light or not - because it's not like getting Air Miles. We want to create incentives. The bottom line is that we want to create incentives and we want people to register fully. The question of how we get from here to there is something we're looking at. We're working with the store owners, with people in the gaming industry; we're working with the larger community. We will be talking to experts in the field about it.

 

As I said in answer to an earlier question - there's just so much myth around those cards. People say, "This is my lucky card." "This is my unlucky card." They will keep a card or get rid of it because they think it's lucky or unlucky. They seem to think that a card is being monitored and somehow if they keep the card and if they keep a fully enrolled card that someone will find out or someone is monitoring their activity and they're going to be outted. There is quite a strong taboo attached to gambling and so there are a lot of people who just don't want to have the card because they don't want people to know that they've been using a VLT or they've been at some other gaming establishment. There is a lot around those cards that we need to understand better, that we need to work with.

 

We have to keep coming back to the Responsible Gaming Strategy which is aimed at reducing the exposure of high-risk people to gaming and helping to identify them and prevent an addiction and really to help them out themselves. It's going to be a never-ending process for us. We're entering into a far more difficult world of gaming where there are a lot of other opportunities to gamble. That's a world where there are far fewer restrictions. It's a world where the people who are organizing it have very few ethical restraints. For us, that too might be to plug this hole in the dike with My-Play when there is a whole new world opening up out there that is far more difficult and far more dangerous that we have to deal with.

 

MR. ZINCK: Again, is this something that the government is looking at doing in the future? I don't think you got to the direct answer of whether or not we're moving towards full enrolment only. Is that something that your department is considering? Again, it's something that's talked about amongst the patrons of the bars and the bar owners. I think at some point we're going to have to clarify that and I think it could possibly help those people who might have chosen not to use the card when it was implemented or it might help people if they know what kind of direction eventually they are going to go into; so those people now who are using the light enrolment, if they eventually know that this is going to go to full enrolment, maybe it would help them to make that conscious decision to do so now.

 

You expressed the fact that there are a lot of myths around these cards, I think if there was some clarity I think people would be more apt to say okay, well eventually it's going to get there, I might as well do this now and it might just benefit me. Again, are we looking, as a government, to going to the full enrolment system?

 

MR. PREYRA: Well as I was saying earlier, it's difficult to know how you get from where we are to the full enrolment system. In an ideal world, that's what we would want. In an ideal world we would want high-risk gamblers not to gamble; in an ideal world we would want people who need help to seek help. What we are looking at is what kinds of incentives we can create for people to enrol fully in the system but not incentives that encourage them to gamble more. That's the dilemma that I think we will find ourselves in.

 

We're going to continue to look at the My-Play System, we're going to continue to look at the participation rates, both at the high and the light enrolment, we're going to look at the bar owners and what would create incentives for them to educate their patrons more, to inform them, to distribute the cards, to promote the higher enrolment. It does impose a cost on the bar owners as well, to have too many people playing with the light cards because they keep getting rid of them and using new cards. That has a cost, in terms of the management, so we want to create incentives for the bar owners to encourage their patrons to take the higher, full enrolment. We want to educate patrons to participate as well.

 

Most of the data shows that the people who are actually using those VLTs are just using them briefly, they come in, they go out; the bar owners say that for those people it's an unnecessary burden. It's not doing anything for them or to them - they come in, they get a light card, they register, they go away and they do that just as they would have a beer. Those are the people who we don't really need to reach, even though we want them in the system, we want them registered.

 

As far as how we move to the full registration and whether or not the move to the full registration will reach those vulnerable people, which is really, as I was saying earlier, it's that 5 per cent - I'm making up the 5 per cent, I know it's much lower than that but let's say 5 per cent - how do we reach that 5 per cent? There's always the possibility that they'll go to the Internet, there's always the possibility that they'll go to grey machines, that they'll do other things as well, so we don't want them to use VLTs at all but we also don't want them to sort of disappear into the world of the Internet.

 

As social policy, it's our obligation as government to monitor this activity right across the board, whether they are gaming in establishments that are regulated by the government now or gaming in things that are happening elsewhere. We have to be vigilant at all levels about certain vulnerable populations and whether or not they're being exposed to certain risks, whether they're being preyed on by certain people. These days when you have a direct deposit card and you have a Visa card, you can do a lot of damage in a very short space of time. We want to make sure that that digital world of financial transactions and gaming - if they get married up, we're talking about a whole new expansion of problems. I know we're talking here about My-Play, but there are other things on the horizon that we are also monitoring and are concerned about.

 

MR. ZINCK: The Cape Breton company that designed the My-Play System received some funding through the IEB. Just a short time ago there was an announcement that the very company that designed the My-Play was being sued, I believe - correct me if I'm wrong - by a company in Nevada. I'm not quite sure if we've heard any more of that. Has your department looked into that and are they concerned that it might eventually at some point have some repercussions for the My-Play System?

 

MR. PREYRA: Yes, that is something that we are aware of. It is in the court system and we will continue to monitor it.

 

MR. ZINCK: It was mentioned earlier, the socio-economic impact study that is coming up. Obviously with the last report to come out there was some negative feedback from the community, those who deal with folks who are dealing with addictions; those from actual gamblers and family members of gamblers who have lost their lives to suicide and whatnot and the negativity towards government for not fully releasing that report.

One of my questions around that upcoming study - are we going to be looking at or including the VLTs that are used on reserves and the First Nation sites? Are those entities going to be looked into and encompassed in that study as well?

 

I remember a short time ago, Chief Paul came out and said that obviously they're concerned about the Aboriginal community gambling. It's one more form of addiction that they can't really sustain amongst the young folks, but there are a lot of off-reserve individuals who use those sites. Are they going to be included into this study? I think it's really important that we know who is actually using these VLTs.

 

MR. PREYRA: I think it's important to keep in mind that what's being studied are not the VLTs. What's being studied are the people who play VLTs. It's a sociological study, a demographic study, and as such it would include a study of people in the community in Nova Scotia across the board. Particularly, if you've seen any of the Health Research Foundation studies, they're pretty comprehensive, they're very well defined in terms of research methodology; in terms of the protocol; in terms of defining the questions and in terms of identifying the cohorts and things like that. It would be a broad-based study of society, of particular communities. I'm not exactly sure that they have a way, at this point, of actually studying particular machines and how people are using them.

 

In time we might have that kind of capacity, but what we're really looking at is a window on this world. We're looking out that window - what do we see? We're using all the tools whether they're binoculars or telescopes or microscopes and trying to figure out in as much detail as we can what's happening up there so that we can essentially implement and live up to the principles of the Responsible Gaming Strategy. What I expect then from this study is that type of information that would tell us across a broad section.

 

We were talking earlier about educating young people and it's that kind of data that we expect to see - demographic data and data based on what's happening in the community and communities at large.

 

MR. ZINCK: There has been a changeover in, I'd say, about probably the last three months, of new machines. A lot of the older machines have been switched out, some pretty high-tech, new fandangled machines have been put in place in a lot of these establishments. What kinds of costs would be associated with bringing this technology in, the newer technology? What do we do with the older machines? Do we funnel them out to another jurisdiction? Do we recover some of the costs for bringing in those new machines through that process? I wonder if you can elaborate a little bit on that.

 

MR. PREYRA: The disposal and dispersal and reallocation of those machines is pretty heavily regulated. Some of them are used as spare parts and some of them are decommissioned and some of them are sold. The actual number of VLTs continues to go down, they can't add to the number.

 

MR. ZINCK: I guess my question was, what kind of costs are we looking at? If a layman was to walk into an establishment and see an old machine and a new machine - obviously the technology is greater - what kind of costs are we looking at in transferring that over and how often would we maybe switch out these machines? Of course keep in mind that the new technology of the new games is to entice the gambler to try and get excited about these new games, so what kind of costs would we be looking at?

 

MR. PREYRA: You're right, and this is part of this digital world where the competition and the quality of the graphics is growing all the time. I remember talking with someone about the establishment of a casino and they said, you know those cruise ships when they come into town they have absolutely the best machines and the newest machines and the most expensive machines and all the bells and whistles. People are not going to leave a cruise ship to gamble at some rinky-dink little port city that hasn't changed its machines in a decade. So you have that level of competition but you also have an industry that's very expensive. Those machines are expensive to replace so that whole issue of asset management is a big challenge - how often do you change it, what do you change it with. It's something that the sector is always concerned about.

 

I don't know the exact refresh rate, if I can call it that. They are 10 years old but I don't know what the refresh rate is. Obviously 10 years is a lifetime in this world, right? A 10-year-old machine is like - I won't even begin to make a comparison. I'm sure that process is going to accelerate, I'm sure that as the world speeds up, as the Internet becomes more effective in communicating, in sending large volumes of information and graphics, the threat and the challenge to machines like this is going to be even greater because people will go where there's a better quality product.

 

MR. ZINCK: Just a couple more questions, Mr. Chairman. Greater Canadian Gaming, where are we at with the contract with the casino? Have we actually renewed it? Is it coming up for renewal? Can you kind of enlighten me as to where we're at with that establishment?

 

MR. PREYRA: We have one contract that was signed in 2005 that expires in 2015. They are 10-year contracts and so it will be coming up for renewal next year, the discussions will start next year.

 

MR. ZINCK: You mentioned your recent tour through the casino, seeing all the female seniors. There's no question that I think we have to be cognizant of the senior population that enjoy the social aspect of gambling. Many seniors find themselves lonely, at home on their own, so they have the casino trips. I think moving forward, it's one of the things that we really have to be aware of, as far as reaching out to that age sector.

 

A number of years ago we had a presentation by the Legions and the Legions had come in and they were talking to us about the VLTs and folks not being able to use their Visa cards onsite and the loss of revenue. Some of the loss of revenue they experienced because seniors were actually staying at home to play things such as bingo on-line. I think it's important that we recognize that it's not just young people who are vulnerable to the on-line aspect.

 

I know in jurisdictions in the U.S. the on-line gambling, in particular around poker, has become quite a hot-button issue in the last number of years, money going offshore and whatnot. I'm wondering if, indeed, it's something that you and your colleagues in the Department of Health and Wellness are willing to look into further. I definitely think that as we can sit here and say that they enjoy the social aspect of it, I think that lonely seniors can be very vulnerable when it comes to access to funds - life savings, Visa cards, and not having the supports that they can reach out to. Is it something that I would suggest the department really considers looking into further and really focusing on. Hopefully the socio-economic impact study that is coming up will lead us more towards that. I would encourage you to take a greater look at that.

 

You go down to the casino in the afternoons, I know a number of seniors who go to these slot tournaments and it's free, they come in for the free buffet but they're always going to stay afterwards. I think that as much as the young people are vulnerable to the on-line aspect and gambling, I think our senior population are probably not as likely to come out and say, you know, I have a problem. I know a number of sweet little ladies in their 70s, 80s and 90s who enjoy that aspect of it but do you know what? There are a number of them who probably maybe do it a little bit too much.

 

Do you think it's something that the department would definitely be looking into? Keep in mind that we have an aging population as well. As I said, I've talked to a number of seniors who unfortunately don't have family visit them enough and they're lonely so they seek out ways to become either social or have things they can access to bring them some sort of enjoyment. I wonder if you can just comment on those.

 

MR. PREYRA: I think that's a really good point, it's a great observation. I had alluded to it earlier when I was talking about getting the bar owners, for example, to be more involved. Again, there's a conflict of interest there, right, where you want to get as much money in revenue out of your VLT machines but you also care about people, your customers, and you don't want to see them harmed.

 

We want incentives in place that would encourage the people at the bars to identify people and to stress to not have them continuously sitting at machines, to provide good food and good entertainment and other diversions and not get them to play the machines continuously, they have to get up physically. That's the general practice that has been adopted at the casinos as well.

 

At the casinos they have developed some pretty well-established procedures, they have people there who are monitoring the system, they have electronic things all over. I haven't done a tour. I did get an invitation last week to come to the casino because I had expressed my own ignorance about who was at the casino and they said well, do you know what? You, as minister, you should come down to the casino and get a tour of our facilities and see what it is we do. I think the deputy is going to organize that. She has been trying to get me to go for a while but I thought I knew what was going on there. This little walk-through was quite a revelation.

 

I don't know exactly what motivates older women - I don't want to stereotype them and they are not seniors, some of them are younger/older women. It's hard to know what motivates a particular demographic cohort to do certain things. I think you can attribute it to loneliness, you can attribute it to people out for a good time, I don't know, but you're right, we need to spend a little more time trying to figure out why people go there, particularly that 5 per cent that I'm talking about - why do they stay there and what can we do to make sure that they don't get into difficulty, what kinds of incentives can we create from those people who are managing those establishments to say we don't want to run the risk of doing harm to that particular person, we want to implement policies and strategies to win them away from machines.

 

That is happening at the casinos now, it has been happening for a while. This study, the Health Research Foundation study, will undoubtedly address that question too, who lives in this world and what are the issues relating to those people. I would expect that we will continue to do more work in that. Maybe the answer is to create other diversions, other activities for people.

 

Just as an aside, about a year ago - less than a year ago - about six months ago I was invited to speak to the students at Dalhousie University. I had initiated this cheap drinks bill and the students were not very happy. I had written a follow-up column saying that binge drinking is a real issue in our city, in our province, in our universities and we need to deal with the issue of binge drinking. This group of students, called Brains for Change, invited me to talk to a group of students there. It turned out it was such a large group we had to break it down into two.

 

One of the things that came out of that meeting, interestingly enough, was a lot of young women - they were largely young women in first year university, saying you know we don't want to go out and get drunk - they used an expression that I can't use here - we don't want to go out and get x-faced, what we really want is to go out and have fun. We're here in the city for the first time, we have very few friends and we want to socialize, we want to meet people. Unfortunately the bars seem to be where this thing happens.

 

Coming out of that was a suggestion that we create kind of social opportunities to drink on campus where you have entertainment, you have conversation, you have other issues. Generally it's just that people want companionship and maybe this is like the older women who are lonely. They came to the conclusion that they needed to organize these kinds of activities on campus.

 

I said well what about having like a craft beer get-together? We've got some great beer in Halifax, we've got Propeller and Granite and Garrison - why not talk about beer and how you make beer and enjoy it? I talked to the Student Affairs people at Dalhousie and they said geez, that would be hard to justify, encouraging people to drink on a Friday night or a Saturday - it's usually Thursday night these days - but if you think it will work, why not do it?

 

I talked to the bars in town and said, would you be willing to work with students? They said yes, so we're working on it. Sometimes you get the most unusual answers to some of those problems. Certainly creating alternate opportunities and alternate experiences where people can enjoy being in a social setting and maybe indulge some of their habits, like drinking beer or gambling but not getting themselves into trouble. So doing that kind of research in identifying why people are there and what would allow them to enjoy what it is they're doing, but not get into difficulty and not exploiting that vulnerability of theirs is a concern as well.

 

MR. ZINCK: Some interesting ideas.

 

MR. PREYRA: Sorry for rambling on there.

 

MR. ZINCK: I remember being 20 not too long ago and I never binge-drank, but we always enjoyed the cheap drinks.

 

I want to end off by just saying that when this department was created a short time ago, a lot of us in Opposition kind of questioned where the government was going with this. How much emphasis is going to be there? The old adage of - is there actually going to be money allocated to do things with what the department is trying to express to Nova Scotians.

 

The Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage throughout our province - I just heard the Minister of Economic and Rural Development and Tourism mention that we don't promote ourselves enough. I heard the Minister of Education the other day in estimates say that we don't toot our own horn enough. I've had the opportunity to travel abroad with the former Minister of Economic and Rural Development and Tourism talking with senior staff in the Department of Economic and Rural Development and Tourism - they've suggested the same thing - we don't promote ourselves enough.

 

I see this as an opportunity to do some really good things - not just within our province - within the country and potentially abroad. I guess I'm wondering if you can tell us, as far as your travels as a minister representing this department and representing the province - what kind of ventures, what kind of junkets have you been on? This is not a question that I'm going to go into cost. It doesn't matter to me because the concern is are we promoting ourselves enough? Have you had the opportunity as a minister to go abroad? Where have you been?

 

I know that the Deputy Premier has an opportunity each year to go to Milwaukee, have you been to Milwaukee as the minister? We have the little lapel pins that we get and I remember the former president of Composites Atlantic, Maurice Guitton said - I take these pins everywhere I go. As somebody who has had the opportunity to travel, I have too. It's interesting when you walk around a resort after a night of being out and you see the next day, the ladies are wearing them as earrings and the guys are wearing them on their ties. Your partner knows where you've been the night before, obviously.

 

I'm wondering if you can maybe tell us if you've had the opportunity to travel, some of the things you've done in the province. Obviously there are some cultural aspects in the department you represent. I think it would be really good to know that you could partner up with another minister from another department, say, if it was an economic development junket, that you could go there as well to promote our culture and heritage. I wonder if you want to talk on that and that will be my final question.

 

MR. PREYRA: Thank you very much for that question. I've had some wonderful trips within Nova Scotia and none outside the country, but let me just tell you a little bit about one of them. I was lucky enough to be invited to Nova Scotia Music Week just a week before White Point opened. We were at White Point and the department has a program where we invest in getting international visitors who are buyers of music to come to Nova Scotia. It gives them a chance to talk to our musicians about what kinds of things they expect in dealing with the business end of it; of seeing our musicians in a fantastic setting.

 

I was there for four days. I enjoyed the entertainment when I was at university and I have never in all my time since then been exposed to that level of experience. As the Minister of Communities, Culture and Heritage, I feel compelled to indulge and participate and expose myself to all kinds of art and music.

 

I haven't been, in many years, to events that started at 1:00 a.m. and ended at 4:00 a.m. The bands just played. Jenn Grant arrives and starts singing and Rose Cousins, to me I'm still a bit of a groupie when it comes to music, I say wow, it's fantastic. Anyway, I was up until 4:00 a.m. and then I woke up at 7:00 a.m. because there were business meetings. After two or three days of that you are pretty much a wreck.

 

I met this woman, she was a German buyer and I said to her, you were up late last night and she was at this party. She said oh, I didn't go to bed, the German visitors, there were about seven of them, we went to the beach and we lit a fire down on the beach. She said your night sky in Nova Scotia is the most beautiful in the whole wide world. She said we were on the beach and we looked at the sky all night and we're going to do that tomorrow.

 

To me it's a bit of an education because we think of our music as being exported but people come here for a whole variety of reasons. There were a lot of contracts signed there. It's a well-developed program, it's similar to East Coast Music Week, last month very successful. I haven't travelled anywhere outside the country on the department's dime or on the government's dime but I have been very lucky, as minister, to have been forced, and I use the term very loosely, to enjoy some of the great music and art and crafts that this province has to offer. We really don't give ourselves any credit, we don't have to leave the country.

 

That's not to say that I won't go because I would like to see what the rest of the world has to offer but as a first order of business in the department, I have travelled across Nova Scotia, across the province whenever we have an opportunity. We have archives and museums and galleries, we have them right across. Any time I go there, I say well you know, why don't I look at that? Someone mentioned this, someone mentioned the cemetery in Ingonish, could we go down and have a look at that while we're here?

 

That, in itself, has been a full-time job, to tell you the truth. The job doesn't allow you to do much else. We will go outside the country but the department is also providing a lot of money to bring people here to see our musicians and our artists in their natural habitats and they thrive in here and they show very well.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. The honourable member for Dartmouth North has, I guess, a final supplementary.

 

MR. ZINCK: You struck a nerve with me when you mentioned music. I have to end by telling you this one quick story. A number of years ago I had an opportunity to invite somebody here, a businessman from Sri Lanka, and spent some time with him trying to do some business with the local port authority. Last year I had the opportunity to go to Sri Lanka myself. We had a day trip on the weekend, we went to the mountains. As we are driving through the mountains, we're going through the different channels in the music and he says, open up the dash. The first thing I see when I open up the dash is a CD. He said put that in, that's my favourite music. What I didn't know was that I had a friend of mine who took him around the province to Shelburne, the Eastern Shore, the South Shore. He made one stop at the Anne Murray Museum. As I reached into the dash, I pulled out that CD and it was the Songbird CD. He loved Anne Murray, so we listened to Anne Murray all the way going through the mountains through Sri Lanka.

 

I had a call last night from Sri Lanka again, I'm about to do another invite, a couple of ministers within the government are looking at coming here to visit our province and maybe to meet with some officials as well. I encourage you, Mr. Minister, to take the opportunity to partner up with some ministers if you have a chance to travel abroad, to express to them some of the experiences that you've had the opportunity to enjoy in your role as minister. With those comments, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, member. We've been here a long time, the minister just asked if we could take a five-minute break just to allow us to refresh ourselves.

 

We will take a five-minute recess.

 

[5:24 p.m. The subcommittee recessed.]

 

[5:30 p.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Having had a bit of a break, we'll reconvene. My understanding during our break is that the members of the Opposition do not want to take further time, but members of the government caucus do have an interest in addressing some questions to the minister. The first of those at least will come from the member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley.

 

MR. GARY BURRILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm concerned, after having listened to questions about eroding graves and listening to Anne Murray, about my ability to offer an adequate question, but I was wondering if we could spend a minute or two thinking about the Community Jobs and Facilities Improvement Program. In the area I represent, the program has had a big impact and a really positive effect. I would say that of the community gathering places in the completely rural areas of Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley, a very significant percentage - perhaps a third or half - have projects now that have been taking place through this program. I was just wondering, is this an experience across the province?

 

MR. PREYRA: It is. The Community Jobs and Facilities Improvement Program has been a real revelation to me in terms of what the universities call the infrastructure deficit. Right across the province we have these not-for-profit service organizations, churches and community groups that provide a virtually indispensable service to the community - very important. We were talking earlier about alienation and isolation in the community. Many of these community centres are a lifeline for the community. It gives people a chance to get together; it serves as a base for them to provide some fundraising activities and charities raising funds. It has been a revelation to me to see how much that infrastructure has been allowed to erode over the years.

 

This project has been helpful to so many groups to help them just continue to survive, literally to keep a roof above their heads or to keep the heat in. It's small amounts of money that they've also been able to match with other funding agencies, at the federal, municipal or private philanthropic organizations. They have been very well received but it does tell us something about the nature of the problem with the infrastructure deficit and the quality of work that members of the community are doing.

 

As you know, it's very hard for some of these older organizations to survive. Their membership is aging, they literally don't have the energy to continue to do it and they need access ramps. They need to be able to get in and out of those places the members want to. Many of these are community hubs, it's the only place left for the community. So for me, especially when you live in an urban part of Nova Scotia, you don't really realize how limited facilities are, especially social and communal gathering places and how expensive it is to maintain these places in the face of declining and aging populations and uneven economic development.

 

I think this program is an important part of supporting those spaces and those people and those communities. I'm glad that it has been successful and working in your community but I'm sure there are ten times as many groups that would like to get money.

 

MR. BURRILL: I'm wondering - there's one thing about the program, about making people aware that it's available. I guess this is particularly a concern since the predecessor program was virtually secret. I know in our area one of the primary reasons why community halls and church halls have such an uptake is that through our constituency office we've contacted those boards and said this program exists. In very few of those cases did people on those boards know what we were talking about, we were explaining it kind of from scratch.

 

It makes a person think well, in the absence of that effort, there must be many more community hall boards that would be very interested in making an application but wouldn't have a chance to know that there was that opportunity. I wonder - I guess we're in year two now of the program - is the department giving any thought to ways in which it would be possible to increase awareness of this possibility?

 

MR. PREYRA: Well definitely I think we could do more in publicizing it. We're using social media and the Internet more, we've engaged MLAs right across Party lines to become partners in sending out information. We've talked to various community groups and asked them to send out more information about the program.

 

You're right, it was something that kind of only select people knew about. In fact I was talking to an MLA today from one of the other Parties and he was saying, thank you very much, I came to you two days before and asked if you could help out with this project and it's really urgent that you do it. We looked at the criteria, I asked the department if they would look at it and a decision was made very quickly. It's not normal but it was done. He said it just seemed to happen really easily.

 

The department has a very flat organizational horizontal line. I bump into the deputy several times a day when I'm there and people come across both of us very easily so decisions are made at a very low level. He was surprised that we would just consider an application without any fear or favour or affection or anything else and say if this is a good project for your community, if this project helps a large group of people, if this program is sustainable, makes a big difference in your community, then we're going to approve it. We really have to because that's what the program is about, it's about creating jobs in communities but more than that, it's about providing valuable support to community groups, to not-for-profit groups and societies to serve functions that are important to their community.

 

Really it's a huge benefit to the taxpayer to have volunteer organizations and societies doing this work and providing this social glue and this social hub. Anything we can do to support that kind of activity is worthwhile. I think particularly in rural Nova Scotia as those supports are being undermined, we have to find ways to keep those spaces together.

 

MR. BURRILL: People, when you tell them about the program, one of the things they are struck by right away is the matching contribution setup. Groups are so used to programs that require, say, 50 per cent or 25 per cent even, which if a group is struggling, it's difficult to be able to come up with that.

 

The tremendous part of the contribution and the big part of it that can be made up in kind I think makes this a really, really helpful program in rural parts of the province. This is what has inclined me to think if it would be reasonable for the department to consider even something just like a newspaper advertisement, particularly in rural papers because people are excited about this program in small communities, particularly because of these features.

 

MR. PREYRA: You're right, we're always looking for new ways of communicating and promoting programs. I think one of the great things about this application and this program is that it counts in-kind work that people can do. For a lot of these organizations all they have is their physical ability to work - they clear a yard or they dig a hole for fence posts or put things up. They don't have a lot of money but they do have that physical capacity, they have the collective will to do it.

 

The program says we will give you a fair return on your sweat equity, if we can call it that, and we will count that as part of your contribution, so even though you can't raise that money, we will treat that as if it is real cash because it is like real cash. That has given them that ability to get that percentage.

 

Oftentimes you have federal and municipal and other philanthropic programs that require matching funds from someone. We can give them a small amount of money and they can leverage that into a much bigger sum of money, so it has been great on that score as well.

 

We are encouraging people not to ask for huge amounts of money because it isn't a lot of money and there's a lot of need. Communities, the small $1,000 to $2,500, $5,000 grants have been very helpful; they've kept the heat in, as I was saying earlier, they've built ramps, they've upgraded their kitchens, they generally made their spaces more accessible and livable and more useful as community centres and community hubs.

 

MR. BURRILL: I'd like to compliment the department, too, on the design of the form, the application itself. Often in community groups - and I'm sure that the communities I serve are no different than the ones served by others - that many rural community groups are struggling in terms of being able to generate adequate leadership for their projects.

 

If accessing funding requires some level of bureaucratic grantsmanship skills, oftentimes that just puts the group out of the equation. I have heard from a number of groups that not only were they surprised about the percentage of money that the group had to come up with and surprised about the amount of that that could come from in-kind contributions, but also that the form itself was so friendly. It's very straightforward. This is why I was thinking if these features of the program, the simplicity of application - all you have to do is say what your group does, what benefit it is, what it is you need - if that could be outlined in a simple way and in an advertising program and in a small number of rural weeklies, this would make a good difference. I'd just like to suggest that as a possibility for year three.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: If I could just remind the minister and the members we have five minutes left in our available time today.

 

MR. PREYRA: Thank you for making that point. I should say that my executive assistant, Nat Smith, is back there and he and I have had a constant communication about the form and the end result is in part because he has been working on it and the deputy minister, and Craig Beaton who has been a real pillar in this process as well.

 

As both of us have been involved in other worlds where you have to fill applications and you need a Ph.D to get those applications completed, but reducing red tape, it's not just a slogan. Reducing the burden of red tape, particularly on very stretched organizations is important. I know the deputy minister has been one of the leaders in trying to simplify our application forms right across the department - almost like a one-stop shop.

 

The idea is that you don't have to repeat that information if you're applying for our programs. You can go to one place and that information will be disseminated horizontally and you don't need to make life difficult for stretched organizations and other people who just want to do their job. Musicians and artists and all that, they just want to do their music and art. They don't want to be spending their time getting a course on grantsmanship. I think that, too, has been one of the main objectives of the department - to make it easier for people to get access to our programs; to make our programs more human-friendly; to make our programs more aimed at real need and in real communities that make a real difference in their lives.

 

We understand that it's not a lot of money. We understand that the need out there is great, but what we do, we have to do it well; we have to do it simply and effectively. As you're suggesting, we have to monitor the program continuously to see what is working. Is it reaching the right people? Is it reaching them in a timely manner? Is there something we can do to reform that form a little better? We're looking for feedback on that score as well - both from people who have got grants and people who haven't - because oftentimes, we need to have another look at people who have complaints about the system as well. That's how it improves and I'm really happy that we have a very young department that's open-minded, that's excited about change. We have a deputy minister who has been just a great leader in championing that openness, transparency and accessibility, so things are working well on that score.

 

We are also looking at other programs. I spoke earlier about Efficiency Nova Scotia, for example. A lot of applications came from groups that wanted to change an old boiler or old heater and those applications give us a little bit of a window of what it is that people are dealing with. Heat seems to be one of them. So it's quite likely that when we review our program we look at what kinds of applications are coming in. Is it about accessibility? Is it about heat? Is it about roofs and windows - other departments and other programs that we can tap into - especially federal programs that these groups can benefit from as well? It's a constant process of review and refinement.

 

People were talking earlier about changing things. Well, that's what change means, that you're responding to the community, you're responding to needs as you go along and I think we will continue to change this program so that it meets the needs of Nova Scotian communities and Nova Scotian - particularly not-for-profit - societies. I'm glad and I'm happy to hear that that program is working and we will look to the whole communications function to see whether or not we can communicate that better.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Our allotted time for today has elapsed. Thank you very much for your feedback and thank you everyone for your participation today.

 

[The subcommittee adjourned at 5:52 p.m.]