HALIFAX, THURSDAY, APRIL 12, 2012

 

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

 

4:00 P.M.

 

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Clarrie MacKinnon

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister and members we will call the committee to order. Minister MacDonell finished Tuesday night with the Department of Agriculture estimates. We are now moving on to Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations.

 

Resolution E34 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $275,909,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, pursuant to the Estimate, and the business plan of the Nova Scotia Municipal Finance Corporation be approved.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would call on the minister for some introductory comments.

 

HON. JOHN MACDONELL: Thank you. I'm really pleased to have an opportunity to discuss the budget of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. To my right I have Marvin MacDonald, the executive director for Municipal Services and to my left, Marianne Hakkert-Lebel is the director of finance. I think as the evening progresses, you'll see the extensive value of these people on either side of me.

 

Along with these two individuals, behind me we have John MacDonald, the executive director of Alcohol and Gaming, Nancy MacLellan, executive director of service delivery, Cameron MacNeil, executive director for Program Management and Corporate Services and Scott Farmer, executive director of Strategy, Innovation and Registries. I also see Shannon Bennett, but I don't have a title for Shannon, that means that she's probably in line for a promotion at any time.

 

The deputy minister of the department, Kevin Malloy won't be joining us today, he's on his way to Indonesia to represent the province at the Democratic Governance Program. The program is currently in year three of its five-year mission to strengthen the effectiveness of local governments in Indonesia. We're proud to be part of the program and wish our deputy safe travels and a productive mission in Indonesia.

 

I'm going to start by giving you a brief look at what Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations does. This department is large and diverse with broad-based responsibilities. Actually it's a very good place for ministers, as far as I'm concerned. I didn't come up through the municipal ranks and although, like lots of Nova Scotians, I use services that are conducted through Service Nova Scotia, it has given me a real opportunity to become aware of a lot of things that government does for Nova Scotians through this one department.

 

Firstly, every Nova Scotian has, or will have, direct contract with this department at some point in their lives, and in fact our department has about 5.4 million client interactions each year. Whether registering a motor vehicle, applying for a driver's licence or applying for a birth certificate, Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations is our access point. In fact, much of the work done in the department focuses on improving access to government programs and services all across the province for businesses, individuals and municipalities. We are always looking at ways to streamline processes to offer better, faster service in a variety of ways: on-line, in person at our Access Nova Scotia Centres, or toll-free through our contact centre.

 

Let me tell you how very pleased I am with the work being done by our contact centre staff. Not only are they able to respond to questions about programs and services offered through Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, they are also very knowledgeable about programs and services offered by other government departments - not to mention they can help Nova Scotians in both English and French, and you can reach the contact centre by calling in the Halifax Regional Municipality at 424-5200, or toll-free 1-800-670-4357, and you can also e-mail askus@gov.ns.ca.

 

Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations staff work in more than 50 locations in 24 communities across the province and, as mentioned earlier, we process almost 5.4 million client interactions each year. Our Web site receives, on average, more than 8,100 visits each day, nearly 65 per cent are return visitors. Recently we made additional strides in improving access to government programs and services and over the past few years, as building leases expired, we have co-located some of our Access Nova Scotia and Land Registration offices. This has provided customers with more services under one roof and is a more cost-effective way for government to serve Nova Scotians. We are continuing to explore further opportunities to co-locate offices as leases expire in the future.

 

Our Dartmouth Access Nova Scotia Centre, formerly located in the Atlantic Superstore Mall, moved to its new location at 250 Baker Drive in Russell Lake West, in March. The new facility is state of the art and built with Nova Scotians' needs in mind. The Baker Drive location is accessible by public transit and has ample parking. It will effectively enable the department to meet all the client services requirements for years to come.

 

It is one of those things that, I think, get a fair bit of activity. I guess I'm like most Nova Scotians, I go to an Access Centre, maybe, whenever my licence or registration is renewed, but being minister I've been able to get to two for openings. One was in Sackville and one was in Cape Breton, in Sydney. The thing I noticed about those centres was how busy they are. It still seems that there are a lot of Nova Scotians who like that personal contact and certainly make use of our centres.

 

Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations also offers a wide variety of on-line services such as motor vehicle registration renewal, birth, marriage and death certificate requests and payments of some municipal fines. After being largely unchanged for 25 years we took the plunge and updated our iconic Bluenose licence plate; it's still the same Bluenose image but we redesigned it to give it a cleaner, more modern look and improve visibility.

 

In January we also launched the Acadian flag licence plate; more than 1,500 Nova Scotians weighed in on the plate design and donation fee amount. The result is a licence plate that features the Acadian flag, a proud symbol of Nova Scotian Acadians. The $50 donation fee that accompanies the plate purchase is returned to the francophone communities to support the cultural activities through l'Acadie Community Support Fund.

 

At Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations we are always reviewing programs and services to be sure we are providing the best possible service to Nova Scotians, and we're working hard to make it quick, easy and convenient to deal with government. In January 2012 we implemented a significant enhancement to our on-line vehicle renewal. Nova Scotians who renew their vehicles on-line are now issued a 10-day interim vehicle permit. This means that if they renew on-line, they can continue to operate their vehicle, even if the plates are expired, for 10 days while they wait to receive their permit and sticker in the mail.

 

We're also in the midst of a radio, on-line, and print advertising campaign that promotes this initiative in the hopes of making more Nova Scotians aware of the on-line vehicle permit services we offer. I think people probably have, I don't know if anybody in this room - I hope not - has encountered a situation where you may have tried to renew on-line and so basically you were doing the good citizen thing but you had to wait. You had no document and you got stopped by the police, you say, well, look, it's in the mail. So what we're doing is offering them something that they can now show to say I got this 10-day window to receive the permit and sticker. Anyway, I think that people will find that more convenient and hopefully an enticement to do more on-line. I think people may have noticed the commercials on television around Alice and Jack and the value of advertising. So wherever you are in the province, if you have access to the Internet, you can renew.

 

Access Nova Scotia Centres and various other departmental offices are some of the busiest spots in the province. As leases for these offices expire, we look for opportunities for growth and co-location as well as ways to serve Nova Scotians more efficiently. By co-locating services under one roof, we are meeting the needs of our customers and making accessing services more convenient.

 

The Kentville Access Centre and Kings County Land Registration Office are now co-located in a new location on Aberdeen Street and our new Access Nova Scotia Centre in Stellarton opened in the Fall of 2011. We renovated the Sydney Access Nova Scotia Centre and co-located the Cape Breton Land Registration Office in the renovated space. This weekend the Weymouth Land Registration Office and the Digby Registry of Motor Vehicles Office will move to a new facility in Digby. In the Fall, the Amherst Access Nova Scotia Centre and the Amherst Land Registration Office will move to new space. Citizens will be served in a new, bright, modern facility with ample parking on Robert Angus Drive. In the next month we will be tendering space for co-located Land Registration Office and Access Nova Scotia Centre in Truro.

 

All of these moves are part of a continued commitment to serve the people of this province while being fiscally responsible and living within our means. The province also continues to look for ways to help businesses to succeed in Nova Scotia. In 2012-13 we will continue our efforts to address red tape by focusing on regulation, compliance and service excellence.

 

Better Business is the next phase of improving how government and business work together, building on the gains made through five years of better regulation initiative that include a 20 per cent reduction in the administrative burden on businesses and a 10-day turn-around for most licences and permits and consistent training for inspectors - when I say Better Business, that's capital B, capital B. That's the title of that campaign. The renewed approach ties into the province's economic strategy jobsHere by contributing to a business environment where Nova Scotia businesses are set up for success.

 

Better Business applies a more focused business lens to how government deals with businesses and other regulated organizations, taking into account the benefits and cost to businesses and citizens. The plan Better Business, creating an environment for business success, was released in January 2012 and focuses on making improvements by business sector, identifying significant opportunities and resolving issues with simple, effective solutions. The Better Business plan lays out actions for the next three years and work has already begun on analyzing the business environment for one sector - convenience stores.

The next step involves planning and identifying initiatives with respect to the actions outlined in the plan and with the high impact opportunities identified through the convenience store sector analysis. This work will allow us to develop an approach that we can use in other business sectors to address broader issues that affect productivity and place a burden on business. We continue to make life better for Nova Scotia business with our Access to Business project, our A to B, as we refer to it. This project started in the Spring of 2011 and enables Nova Scotia businesses to access information and perform various transactions with government in a manner similar to on-line banking.

 

Businesses will be able to log in to a secure portal and see the status of various licences and permits and conduct a variety of transactions. The first phase will see two releases in the Spring and summer that will introduce new on-line functionality. Business will be able to review their business information and submit application forms and payments to government. The A to B project will help reduce the administrative burden, increase the use of on-line services, and improve the accuracy of information to customers.

 

The department also continues to work to make life better for Nova Scotians by making it easier for citizens to interact with government. One of the objectives of the life event bundling project is to make it easier for citizens to interact with government through the implementation of a bereavement bundle and the expansion of the current integrated birth bundle. In 2012 the life event bundling project will see an expansion - pardon the pun - of the birth bundle to include the submission of birth information by new parents via a self-service kiosk in most hospitals. Most new parents will only need to complete one on-line form to apply for their child's birth certificate, Nova Scotia Health Card, Canada Child Tax Benefit and Social Insurance Number.

 

This Spring we are implementing a new bereavement bundle that allows funeral directors to electronically submit death information and we're developing an information package for citizens in the event of the death of a loved one. I think those two, the birth bundling and the bereavement bundle, will certainly reduce time and confusion. The fact that you can fill out one form and have it go off to the appropriate offices to give you a health card and whatever information, I think people will find that very convenient.

 

I think both of these occurrences, one being somewhat more joyful than the other, are times of some stress as well on families and lots to think about so I think that anything that we can do to kind of lessen all the paperwork and the other things you generally don't think about because you don't do that every day, this is just a way to try to ensure that we can take something that's somewhat cumbersome, not impossible, and just make it easier. This package will be a single information source to help citizens navigate all levels of government so they can access benefits during a stressful time.

 

In addition, Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations is actively supporting 211 Nova Scotia; 211 Nova Scotia is a 24-hour a day/seven-days a week/year-round, non-emergency help line and database of government, community and social services. Halifax Regional Municipality has approved facility space in the Eric Spicer Building for 211 Nova Scotia and they have already moved into their new home and are busy getting ready for the soft launch of the 211 Nova Scotia system in the Fall of 2012 with a full public launch in February 2013.

 

The deputy minister for this department, Kevin Malloy, has served on the 211 Nova Scotia Board of Directors since October 2011. Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations facilitated the process of obtaining resources for each of the identified key departments to validate the information about their respective departments, programs and services as 211 is implemented and also on an ongoing basis.

 

As many of you know, the Alcohol and Gaming Division joined Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations a little over a year ago, and what a spirited year it has been. I actually didn't know whether I wanted to gamble on that comment or not.

 

AN HON. MEMBER: We knew the odds.

 

MR. MACDONELL: I'm just trying to get even. The Alcohol and Gaming Division regulates places of amusement like video outlets, theatres and pool halls. It also provides liquor licence applications for businesses and the general public, provides licences and regulates lotteries and other forms of gaming, and classifies films and videos.

 

In January 2012, the Alcohol and Gaming Division also took over the granting of permanent liquor licences from the Utility and Review Board. Putting the decisions for granting liquor licences into one single department has resulted in reducing costs to business and government, and decreased the time that it takes a business to get a liquor licence. In fact, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business recognized the work that Alcohol and Gaming is doing to reduce red tape for business with a nomination of its first-ever Golden Scissors Award which recognizes leadership in cutting red tape in government.

 

The food and beverage industry is important to Nova Scotia, and Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations Alcohol and Gaming Division is working very closely with industry and industry associations to ensure a thriving, vibrant industry. Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations also provides programs relating to consumer protection, residential tenancies, taxation, business practices and geographic information.

 

I know I don't have to highlight the importance of these services to Nova Scotians, however, there are some legislative and regulatory changes I'd like to bring to your attention. Beginning this Spring, Internet payday lenders will be subject to licensing requirements which will provide greater protection to consumers of those types of services. Amendments to the Residential Tenancies Act will come into effect this summer ensuring better protection for both Nova Scotia tenants and landlords.

 

To make it easier for Nova Scotians to make informed decisions about mortgages and mortgage brokers we're proposing some big changes to the Mortgage Brokers and Lenders Registration Act. These proposed changes would update and modernize the Act and bring Nova Scotia's licensing and compliance system in line with other provinces in Canada and align it with the requirements of the Agreement on Internal Trade. It is a much needed modernization that will ensure that the rules around mortgage brokering and lending are clear, fair and consistent throughout the province. The proposed changes are supported by borrowers and the mortgage brokering industry alike.

 

We continue to promote fraud prevention and awareness. This year we partnered with the Nova Scotia Barristers' Society to promote information regarding mortgage fraud awareness. We also work with partners like the Better Business Bureau to protect Nova Scotians from identity theft through events like Shred-it. Actually I spoke at the Better Business Bureau meeting last night and I was quite impressed with the things that they've done, they've been around for 100 years so it's impressive, I think, the way that they've grown, and businesses have taken on a role to ensure the high standards of ethics in the business community, so good on them.

 

In fact, as part of Secure Your ID Day we will be hosting a free Shred-it event on Saturday, April 21^st at our Access Nova Scotia Centre at 300 Horseshoe Lake Drive in Bayers Lake. The event is aimed at helping Nova Scotians protect themselves against identity theft by safely disposing of old documents; we hope to see you there.

 

We also continue to use updated Web sites to inform consumers about our consumer protection programs, and our Twitter account continues to be a great help in getting consumer alerts out quickly to Nova Scotians. This department also administers a number of important rebates, specifically Your Energy Rebate Program and your Heating Assistance Rebate Program. I know that's an important issue for the MLA for Preston.

 

The province removed the provincial portion of the HST off home heating, meaning Nova Scotians immediately see this rebate on their home heating bills. We also offered the Heating Assistance Rebate Program in 2011-12. The program provides up to $200 in home heating help for eligible households. Families with an income of up to $42,000 and individuals with an income of $27,000 or less continue to be eligible to receive home heating help through this program. It's important that we help as many Nova Scotians as possible through the heating assistance rebate. We had heard that families were not aware of it so we also increased our advertising and communications efforts this season to get assistance to as many Nova Scotian families as possible.

 

The Liberal Critic had asked me in the House on this issue. We think that we won't spend all that we've booked for that program. I think to date we have about 47,000 people who have applied for heating assistance in that program. We're still tallying applications because they had up to March 31^st to apply. It looks as though we might possibly strike 53,000 - somewhere in that range I think for uptake. I think last year we were in the 50,000 range for it. So it may turn out to be a little bit of a bump there but still, I think won't exhaust what's allocated for that.

 

It's a program that, like next year, anybody who has applied - and somebody can correct me - if it's applied and received or just applied, that they automatically mail out. So those 53,000, if it turns out to be that many, or 50,000, there will be an automatic mail-out to those people at the end of October, November. So the people who have applied to the program in that previous year, we mail out to them automatically. So then there's every community organization I think in the province, I think there are over 100, they get application forms. All the MLAs get them sent to their offices and then we do some advertising as well. We did last Fall and then in the new year as well. So anybody who has used the program, actually applied to the program, they get the application.

 

We were also able to provide the Salvation Army's Good Neighbour Energy Fund with an $800,000 donation this year to support low-income Nova Scotians in emergency heating situations. I would like to take a moment to recognize the Salvation Army for its good and important work. Their commitment and dedication to Nova Scotian families in need is immeasurable and I guess they have the reputation to back up their actions.

 

Another important rebate that we offer to Nova Scotian families to help make life better and more affordable is the first time homebuyer rebate which we just doubled to a maximum of $3,000. The rebate is equivalent to 18.75 per cent of the provincial portion of the HST up to a maximum of $3,000. It's available to first time homebuyers who purchase or build new homes. This rebate will help families put down roots and become part of vibrant, caring communities. I see my colleague, the member for Hammonds Plains-Upper Sackville, is not here but was a minute ago. Actually we made the announcement on that program in his constituency on April 4^th. It was close to mine, it's just down the road from Mount Uniacke in Hants East, but I have to say the location we chose, there was lots of activity as far as home construction. It is one that we hope Nova Scotians will see as beneficial.

 

On the taxation compliance front, our very tough stance against illegal tobacco is working. While the smuggling of tobacco products continues to be an issue in Nova Scotia and in other provinces across the country, we have made progress. Our estimate of the illegal tobacco market in Nova Scotia has decreased from more than 30 per cent in 2006-07 to a current estimate of approximately 11 per cent. In the last five years, approximately 173,000 cartons of illegal cigarettes were seized in 430 seizures. Illicit sales of contraband tobacco contributed to an underground economy worth billions of dollars and tobacco trafficking is regarded as a significant source of income for all levels of organized crime who reinvest the substantial profits to support other criminal activities.

 

Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations has also supported Crime Stoppers on the production and airing of public service announcements on tobacco smuggling on the Internet and on television. As a result of our enhanced relationship and agreement with Crime Stoppers, all province-wide tips and leads received by Crime Stoppers on tobacco smuggling are forwarded to the department's compliance unit, RCMP Excise and local law enforcement agencies. We also provide funding to Crime Stoppers for awards to tipsters for tips leading to seizures of illegal tobacco.

 

We also distribute a brochure on illegal tobacco products to tobacco retailers, truckers, taxi companies, Access Nova Scotia offices and Crime Stoppers. The federal government launched a new federal tobacco stamping regime using a new high-tech stamp instead of tear tape, effective September 1, 2010 and as of April 1, 2011 the federal stamps became mandatory. Amendments to the Revenue Act and the regulations required to implement the change to the new stamps have been passed and have an effective date of April 1, 2012.

 

However, in order to participate in the federal tobacco stamping regime, each province must first enter into a memorandum of understanding with the Canada Revenue Agency. I'm pleased to tell you that I signed the memorandum of understanding with the CRA and Prince Edward Island on August 4, 2011 and we are now using the high-tech security stamp. The new state-of-the-art tobacco excise stamp contains both overt and covert security features much like those found on Canadian currency. The new tobacco excise stamps allow enforcement agencies to more easily detect and seize counterfeit tobacco products.

 

Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations is also very interested in and involved in the operations of the province's 54 municipalities. Municipalities in the province are very diverse, they range in population from 481 residents in Annapolis Royal to more than 390,000 in Halifax Regional Municipality. Geographically there are significant differences as well from small, self-contained towns to large rural municipalities. Actually the municipality I live in, Hants East, is quite sprawling. If I leave Shubenacadie to go to Walton on the 215 highway, it's 72 kilometres. I know my colleague for Guysborough would probably say, that's nothing, considering the size of his constituency. How big is it? I'll tell you. It is so big that in 1998, July or August, I bought a new Subaru Legacy Brighton car. In 2006, I gave it away. I had 469,000 kilometres on it, I would say almost entirely from driving around my constituency. That was not the only vehicle I owned. I had two vehicles, so I could say I could split the difference but that was the one I used most. That's not to say that I didn't use the other one for doing constituency work as well.

 

So just to give you a notion of - and I guess I was one of those MLAs who, if somebody called, I'd like to go see them in their kitchen and have a chat about what the issue was and if you've ever spent any time on Highway 215 along the Minas Basin or Cobequid Bay, then you would look for any opportunity to drive along there. It is one beautiful part of the world, quite undiscovered and I often think that when it becomes discovered, what will happen to it. It is a nice part of the province.

 

The role of this department is to provide advice and assistance and to prepare policy on municipal matters for government. For example, at the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities Conference last Fall, I announced that this department would provide $300,000 toward establishing the municipal Auditor General's Office. We're moving ahead with that and the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities has established a committee that will be responsible for hiring the municipal Auditor General and setting up the office.

 

The province is continuing to work with the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities on the Towns Task Force. This task force was charged with bringing forth recommendations that will help keep Nova Scotia towns healthy and vibrant. The chairman of the task force, Dave Corkum, who is also the Mayor of Kentville, is providing an overview of the preliminary recommendations of the task force at regional Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities meetings during the month of April.

 

The municipal fiscal review is now underway and this is the first time in more than 10 years that a true, collaborative review of provincial programs related to municipal governance has taken place. This review will look at ways to find efficiencies and improve municipal liability, while living within our means.

 

The requests, I guess, that formed into the fiscal review was a request by the Municipality of CBRM. Their question really centred around equalization and I think their concerns that they weren't getting their fair share. So I think a meeting that the Premier had with municipal council there, when they raised this, he said that we would review all of the programs and equalization would be part of that. So instead of just being a review of equalization, it became a review of municipal programs, to see whether there's a way or a need of reshaping those, so they might somehow work better.

 

The difficulty with that is the pot is probably not a lot bigger. But anyway, there may be some very helpful recommendations come out of this and we look forward to those. I'm thinking that's the end of the year, December.

 

We've also created a new Associate Deputy Minister position that will focus solely on municipal relations. Ours is a very large department and the province feels that a good, strong relationship with our municipal partners is of the utmost importance and warrants a senior position at the Associate Deputy Minister level, whose sole concern is municipal issues.

 

We're also continuing to support municipal infrastructure through the Building Canada Fund, the Gas Tax Fund and the Provincial Capital Assistance Program. With our federal partners, we will continue to work towards a replacement program for the Building Canada Fund as it winds down over the next two years. For us, basically that fund is booked. There are, I think, enough - probably more requests than what there's funding for, but if those projects go forward then we really have tapped the good out of that federal program. We are concerned about what the next program will look like in the timeline around that. I'm thinking it's not going to be before 2014-15, so that's a bit of a concern because that's getting on, pushing out three years and a lot of the municipalities have challenges that are significant and I think probably for some of that we are not able to carry that load on our own so we will need help from the federal government.

 

As many of you know, the Town of Canso has made an application to the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board for the dissolution of the town. We understand the challenges facing small towns such as Canso across the province and the board has heard from all interested parties and the Town of Canso will dissolve and become part of the Municipality of Guysborough on July 1, 2012. I understand how difficult these decisions are and know that council is moving forward with the best interests of its residents in mind. We've been very supportive of council's decision and will continue to support them and their residents as they move forward. I'd also like to recognize the Municipality of the County of Guysborough, which has been key and much appreciated and has been a very good partner through this process.

 

I'd also like to recognize the good work we continue to do in Bridgetown. We believe in the potential of the town and we value the work that Mayor Bob Fowler and councillors Tim Thurber and Anna Allen are doing. From what I can tell, I think the people there are very pleased with them. I think these three people have credibility and experience and I think the citizens in that town really felt that they were being put in good hands there and I think the evidence now indicates to us that they're right. I think the choices we made on those three individuals were the right ones and I think the people there have really taken to Bob Fowler as mayor. We're looking forward to the point at which we'll move away and they'll elect their new council and hopefully, from all indications, they'll be on a stable financial footing and I think with new policy to direct how the town works. It has been a learning experience for everyone and actually Darrell Hiltz who has been acting as CAO there - former deputy minister with the province - is a very capable individual.

 

I think the more important thing and maybe one of the strengths of all four of these people has been their demeanour; their ability to work with others and with each other, and I think kind of took a situation that was a very serious one and I think they just brought kind of a calming tone to the whole predicament that the town was in, which I think allowed us to achieve a lot of buy-in from the citizens. A lot of credit goes to those four individuals for the good work that they've done there. I think whenever the town elects its new council and mayor they will be in far better shape than they were going into this, so we're really pleased to see that happen.

 

The province appointed the mayor and councillors to ensure the town's day-to-day operations keep running and to help citizens feel confident in their community. Our goal is to provide stability and rebuild confidence in Bridgetown and to attract citizens to run for council in the next municipal election in October.

 

We will work with municipalities to build their capacity to undertake and improve strategic planning processes and to use performance measures to improve operations. For example, Municipal Services has developed a handbook to assist municipalities in preparing climate change action plans. These action plans will be included in municipalities' integrated community sustainability plans over the next two years. These plans will make Nova Scotia municipalities leaders in the global response to climate change.

 

In addition, as you are aware, municipal elections will take place this coming October. The department is in the process of hosting a number of workshops, in partnership with the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities and Dalhousie University, aimed at getting Nova Scotians interested in participating in municipal government. This can take place in many ways; for example, running for office, volunteering to sit on committees or volunteering as a firefighter.

As part of this initiative, we will also be running campaign schools for women who are traditionally under-represented in municipal government. We have also worked with the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs on a similar initiative.

 

With our federal counterparts, we also offer a number of grant programs aimed at promoting the long-term environmental, economic, social and cultural sustainability of Nova Scotia communities. In January 2012, we wrapped up the Infrastructure Stimulus Fund, which was put in place to help generate economic activity through the construction of municipal infrastructure. Under the Infrastructure Stimulus Fund we completed 46 projects, ranging from water and waste water projects in Cape Breton Regional Municipality to sewer system improvements in New Germany and Point Pleasant Park upgrades in Halifax Regional Municipality to name just a few.

 

The Gas Tax Fund promotes the economic, social, environmental and cultural sustainability in Nova Scotia municipalities, through projects like community energy systems, public and accessible transit infrastructure and water and waste water infrastructure. The Gas Tax Fund has helped fund the Transit Maintenance Facility in Halifax Regional Municipality, the leachate collection system in the Municipality of the County of Colchester and the Inverness Waste Management Transfer Station.

 

We also offer programs that help community-based transportation. The Nova Scotia Transit Research Incentive Program provides $250,000 in funding to 13 organizations to support initiatives intended to generate new and improved public transit services in rural and under-serviced urban areas of Nova Scotia.

 

The Accessible Transportation Assistance Program assists communities with the purchase and modification of accessible vehicles. To date we have helped communities purchase and make modifications to seven vehicles, including three taxis. Through the Community ACCESS-ability Program we also provide grants to non-profit community organizations or groups, as well as to municipalities, to help with the removal of barriers for persons with disabilities in public building and spaces. Over the past year we have helped complete 34 projects province-wide, installing ramps, elevators and accessible washrooms, making the province a better, more accessible place to live and visit.

 

The Community Transportation Assistance Program helps with operational costs for community-based transportation systems in low-population density communities in Nova Scotia. To date, the program has funded 11 services that help Nova Scotians in under-served areas get to work, school or a doctor's appointment.

 

Through the Emergency Services Provider Fund, our department continues to assist volunteer fire departments, ground search and rescue groups and other emergency organizations purchase the equipment they need, like imaging cameras, bunker gear and ice rescue equipment, to perform their duties safely.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister, not to cut you off in any way, but just from a procedure perspective, to interject for a moment. The introductory remarks are usually 15 minutes to an hour and you have been going for 50 minutes, and not to cut you off at all, you still have 10 minutes remaining. I always give each Party a 10-minute notice, so I'm just giving you a 10-minute notice. Thank you.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Thank you. I'll try to be brief on that second hour I had planned. We also help our Royal Canadian Legions through the Legion Capital Assistance Program and make necessary upgrades and repairs to existing buildings used to house Legion events and other community activities. Over the last year we have provided funds to help 18 Legions upgrade heating systems and replace roofs, windows and doors.

 

I'd like to take a moment to highlight some of our department's new investments that were announced in the budget. There was a net increase of $1.148 million in the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations 2012-13 budget as compared to last year's budget. We have budget increases of $400,000 for operating support to new and ongoing tangible capital asset projects, such as access for citizens and system upgrades.

 

We have also budgeted $300,000 for the Office of the Municipal Auditor General and $600,000 for some of the legislative amendments that were initiated last Fall, including: amendments to the Motor Vehicle Act that will allow us to create an appeal board that operates independently of the registrar; changes to the Residential Tenancies Act to create an express lane for appeals; changes to the Consumer Protection Act concerning Internet payday lenders, including a reduced maximum cost of borrowing for consumers set by the Utility and Review Board and recent changes to regulations that will require payday lenders to include their rate on all their ads.

 

We kept the funding grant for Nova Scotia 211 and increased it from $585,000 to $685,000. The Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations will also transfer $300,000 in community grants to the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage to consolidate with the new $2 million Community Jobs and Facilities Improvement Fund. These are fine examples of our government making life better and more affordable for families as well as for businesses.

 

In closing, I want to mention that I am always struck by the dedication and commitment of the staff in all areas of the department, and in particular my communications staff who work really hard at trying to make me sound good. Staff work diligently to make sure that programs and services are delivered in a way that make sense and in ways that are the most accessible to Nova Scotians. I am proud to be the Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations and value the great work done by staff every day. With that, I'd be glad to answer questions, or try to. Thank you for your time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Preston.

 

HON. KEITH COLWELL: I'm going to get right to all the questions I've got here. As I'm sure you're well aware, I will. I'm going to start with the line by line budget breakdown under Senior Management, Page 20.3. There seems to be an 18.2 per cent increase in spending within the office of the minister and deputy minister this year over last year, estimate to estimate. Now if we look at the forecast of last year to estimates this year, we see that there is an actual increase in spending on the minister and deputy minister's office of 56.8 per cent. Could you explain what that is all about?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Part of that is the increase for the associate deputy minister position, so we've budgeted for that. I mentioned in my speech that we're going to hire an associate deputy minister to do the municipal area.

 

The other part, I think previously other ministers may have had two executive assistants if they had two departments, but I have the same executive assistant which is paid out of Agriculture. I'm not sure - that really shouldn't be an increase. It nets against the cost of the ADM, you don't actually see it but the money has actually been there and now it will go to the associate deputy minister.

 

MR. COLWELL: Could you provide a detailed breakdown on that? All the costs you're talking about, the associate deputy minister and the topic you just talked about, could you provide us with a breakdown of that?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Associate deputy minister's budget is $160,000. The executive assistant is minus $75,000. The budget used to have $75,000 for the executive assistant and so we've increased that by $80,000 and that will go to the associate deputy minister. I only have one executive assistant, it's not paid for through Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, that person is paid through my Agriculture budget.

 

MR. COLWELL: You're saying that the executive assistant was budgeted for $75,000? Is that correct?

 

MR. MACDONELL: A former, not mine, but, yes.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay. On Service Delivery, there has been a 10 per cent increase since 2009-10 in the budget. At first glance it seems those are two of the largest drivers of the increase, the executive director and program integration. Could you provide an explanation on both of these items and why they've had such a strong spending increase since 2009-10?

 

MR. MACDONELL: You're saying executive director, I better answer that one first. That's overtime and equipment purchases. That would be additions ordinarily in the Operations Centre northwest region, south and western Valley region - all those regions would have budgeted that previously in their own line items. But we budgeted centrally so that we could actually see it in a line item so we can manage it better rather than have each one of the regions budget it.

MR. COLWELL: You say that's for overtime?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Overtime and equipment purchases.

 

MR. COLWELL: It looks like the executive director had a resulting increase of $890,000 since 2009-10. Is that where all that has come from?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, if you look at it, I think practically every one of those other line items, maybe except for Operations Centre, practically every other of those ones have gone down from 2011-12. I'm assuming the change would amount to the difference you see at the executive director level there. Instead of each one of those Operations Centres or regions booking that overtime and equipment purchases in their own region budget, which you see a slight decrease in, then we booked it centrally in one place for all of them so that we actually manage it better. That was the reason.

 

MR. COLWELL: Do you have a breakdown between the overtime and the equipment part of it?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Overtime is $500,000.

 

MR. COLWELL: Half a million?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Equipment is about $300,000.

 

MR. COLWELL: Why is there such a substantial amount of overtime? That's half a million dollars a year. That's a lot of money.

 

MR. MACDONELL: That's a good question. What happens when people go into our Access Centres - if the Access Centre is going to close at 5:00 p.m., let's say, but you've got 15 people who came through the door at 4:45 p.m., we don't kick them out; we serve them. That means somebody - and probably more than one person - has to stay for another hour or whatever to ensure that these people are taken care of and that really is the biggest reason. That was one of my questions because I was thinking about my experience with government - certainly when I was in Opposition - I think about the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, in my area, the local depot, they do not pay overtime, at whatever time, they're done. So I was a little surprised to find out that overtime was something we pay. I said, well why do we pay it? That's the big reason - the public walks through our door, they expect to get their permits and whatever and even though they're there when closing time hits, we deal with them and serve them so we have to pay people for that when they stay over.

 

MR. COLWELL: I understand the service and I think that's very important. Is there any way that people could do some different type of shifts or something like that to help eliminate a lot of this overtime? This half a million dollars a year is a lot of money.

 

MR. MACDONELL: I'm not sure. I'm thinking that in order to have consistency - because some days they won't be there. Some days there might not be anybody there after 4:30 or 4:00, so if you say, well, we're going to close at 5:00 - I don't know how it helps. In other words, I guess you're saying those people all leave at 5:00 and then you have a new crew come on and they do a two-hour shift or something and pay them the regular wage. I can see that it may be somewhat more complicated, but if our numbers indicate that most people can show up between 8:00 or 9:00 in the morning - whenever they open - and 5:00 p.m., that seems to get the majority of the population. We've obviously had times when there was nothing happening.

 

I'm thinking there must be occasions when everybody is dealt with or that every person behind the counter does not have a client. If you consider the size of our budget - $270 million - that $500,000 to serve Nova Scotians is probably a cheap way to - because some days there wouldn't be any; everybody leaves at the time they close, so in order to deliver service, I think the best way - that's probably as good as it's going to get. We could look at it, but I'm thinking probably somebody else has looked at it already.

 

MR. COLWELL: I was just wondering, because the Liquor Corporation has casual people that come in on specific hours and if there's no work they send them home. A lot of people would probably love to have a casual position for all kinds of reasons, especially with the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations because it's a pretty prized job and it's a very good place to work. It's just something I'm asking - and $500,000 is just this one operation. You have many operations through your department and all of the different sections of your department.

 

I was wondering if you have any idea how much in the whole department of $200-some million is overtime. That would be an interesting question to ask.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Well, I'm trying to think of, probably Land Registration - I'm trying to think of where people would walk through the door and might still be there, and I don't think there are big crowds at Land Registration Offices so I'll just ask if anybody can tell me if there's any other component of the service we deliver that would require overtime? There was a backlog of driver collision reports which was about $100,000 we paid in overtime and I think that was something the Auditor General raised, that we had to get those cleaned up. Out of that $500,000, it also includes land registry, all of it, all of the overtime in all the - everywhere for the department.

 

So, yes, and from the last collective agreement we're no longer allowed to have casuals. So I think it would be difficult for us to hire people, you know, and certainly I'm not sure, you mentioned about them being good jobs but I can't believe if you drive to work and get sent home and I'm thinking people wouldn't be paid because otherwise if we're sending them home and paying them, I don't see that as a saving either. So I don't think lots of people would drive to work to find out that they're not going to be working. I think they would like to get eight hours or whatever.

 

MR. COLWELL: Well, a lot of the businesses in the province have casual people who come to work and on a lot of lower paid jobs than these jobs are.

 

MR. MACDONELL: But they don't send them home surely? I mean people don't come to work and turn around and go home . . .

 

MR. COLWELL: No, that's not . . .

 

MR. MACDONELL: . . . and spend their money on gas.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a chairman, it's not a fireside chat.

 

MR. MACDONELL: I'll turn the fire down then.

 

MR. COLWELL: I was just wondering if there's a more efficient way to do some of this. I understand when there are unusual circumstances, like the $100,000 you had to put in overtime to do something that was mandated by the Auditor General, that's understandable, but if it's an ongoing operating cost, overtime, then it's an issue, it is an issue.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Well, no, I mean it's a concern but I think for us it's a question of, if trying to do it some other way is more expensive than the $500,000, then we may not want to go there. The $500,000 may be the cheapest way for us to deal with this and still provide good service to Nova Scotians. I take your point. We would be glad to take a look but I'm thinking that this is probably the most cost-effective way for us to do it so that we can deliver service to people and meet our obligations under collective agreements and whatever.

 

MR. COLWELL: Yes, I'm just wondering because usually if you get a lot of overtime, there's an issue that needs to be resolved and the issue, sometimes there's an easy solution to it and sometimes there isn't, but usually there is a solution available and that really, it's just that it costs a lot of money for overtime, a lot of money. Overtime is very expensive and indeed if it's too much overtime, then it causes problems with individuals working too long hours. It's usually a few people who get sort of caught up in that process. Anyway, I'm going to leave it at that and hopefully the department will look at that to see if there's some way to accommodate less overtime in the process and still provide the excellent service that they do now.

 

Also, the program integration has come in over budget each year since 2009-10 and has increased to $942,000 since 2009-10. Could you tell me what that's all about?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Well, I mentioned in the speech, Access to Business and Access for Citizens, those programs that we're trying to initiate to actually cut red tape and so on, the cost centre for those is in Service Integration but we're only seeing a $30,000 increase because of that program.

I don't have the 2009-10 information here because we're doing 2012-13. I can only tell you that since we formed government, we've reduced those costs, so glad to continue that.

 

MR. COLWELL: Well the point I'm making is, it's almost $1 million more since 2009-10 in a program integration. That's a pile of money. No explanation for it?

 

MR. MACDONELL: The department moved people from other divisions, I'm assuming, and increased the number of positions in Service Integration. That was done previously, so that's probably what you're seeing in the 2009-10 area. Since then, really the only increase is for this Access to Business and Access for Citizens, that program that we're developing.

 

MR. COLWELL: I guess that's an answer.

 

MR. MACDONELL: It should have meant a reduction in some other line item, if we moved the people out from some other division, into that division, there should have been a reduction in where they came from. Their wages shouldn't be in a line item somewhere else, too.

 

MR. COLWELL: What programs are handled by the executive director?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Well we have about four of them, executive directors, so if you want to pick a division.

 

MR. COLWELL: Well it's the one I've been talking about, under Service Delivery.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Okay. I have to keep my eye on that executive director all the time. So you want to know what programs are delivered under Service Delivery?

 

MR. COLWELL: Yes, what programs.

 

MR. MACDONELL: We're making a list, checking it twice.

 

MR. COLWELL: I can appreciate that.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Okay - responsible for delivery programs and services to Nova Scotians through multiple service channels with a high level of customer satisfaction; responsible for implementing integrated customer-oriented services that make it easier for clients to interact with government; responsible for the Department Contact Centres, Access Nova Scotia offices, Registry of Motor Vehicle offices, Land Registration Offices and management of e-service channels - that would be people getting service on-line. Major programs delivered include: Registry of Motor Vehicles, Land Registration, Residential Tenancies, Debtor Assistance, Nova Scotia Business Registry and the Registry of Joint Stock Companies.

MR. COLWELL: I see why you had to have a list. I'd say you have one very, very busy executive director.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you want to do the other three?

 

MR. COLWELL: We may get to that. What are the staffing levels under the executive director and what are the caseload ratios for the people that handle the programs that you just described. That's a big answer because it's a big question under all those responsibilities.

 

MR. MACDONELL: I'm thinking if we had some overtime. There are 450 FTEs in that division, Contact Centre is about 50 people, Business Registration is about 60, Service Integration is about 20 and the rest are dispersed in the in-person location.

 

MR. COLWELL: I see the executive director knows her stuff. What staffing changes have been made under executive director's responsibility, has there been a substantial number of changes?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Conversion of casuals to the bargaining unit that may have had some impact, that's a big one.

 

MR. COLWELL: What programs have been cancelled or moved in or out under the responsibility of the executive director in the last year?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Nothing moved out but on-line services have been expanded and also Access for Citizens and Access to Business, those programs that we're developing, so that's new.

 

MR. COLWELL: You partly answered my next question here. What funding increases have taken place for those things that you just mentioned that have been added to the executive director's responsibilities?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Our net increase is only $32,000, I think we mentioned earlier. We had savings with Access to Business of about $400,000 as cut costs.

 

MR. COLWELL: That's the kind of stuff we like to hear about.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Pretty near offsets that overtime.

 

MR. COLWELL: The e-services have increased by 7.2 per cent, estimate over estimate, and an 8.8 per cent from last year's forecast to this year's estimate. What's the reason for that, is that just a shift that took place?

 

MR. MACDONELL: The cost of our service provider, Unisys, there is about $144,000 increase in that.

MR. COLWELL: Is that a tendered contract?

 

MR. MACDONELL: It's a tendered contract, it's the ACOL agreement.

 

MR. COLWELL: In addition to the increase I just talked about these services show there has been an increase of $430,000, or 22.7 per cent since 2009, what's the reason for that?

 

MR. MACDONELL: We'll have to get back to you. We thought it was 2012-13, we were debating, as an increase since 2009 of how much?

 

MR. COLWELL: E-services show there has been an increase of $430,000 or 22.7 per cent since 2009-10.

 

MR. MACDONELL: The Unisys contract increase, that would be the $144,000. We added a position as a result of the A to B program. Reclassification of two staff members plus a cost of living increase.

 

MR. COLWELL: Wow. That's a lot of money. Could you give me a written breakdown on that as well?

 

MR. MACDONELL: We can get that for you.

 

MR. COLWELL: If you don't mind, I would appreciate it.

 

MR. MACDONELL: You want it back to 2009?

 

MR. COLWELL: Yes, from 2009-10 budget forward. What programs are handled by the E-Services? What exactly does E-Services provide?

 

MR. MACDONELL: All the client services you can get on-line would be through there.

 

MR. COLWELL: That would be things like Registry of Motor Vehicles, some of the stuff you talked about in your opening remarks, all those sorts of things?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes.

 

MR. COLWELL: That's expanding all the time, I understand. Correct?

 

MR. MACDONELL: We find more and more people - obviously as they get better service, I only recently got high-speed in my own part of the world - but more and more people will use on-line services if they're available rather than go down to a location if they can. It still doesn't stop people from being in there over 5:00 p.m.

 

MR. COLWELL: I'm going to make a comment on people staying home doing the stuff; they can't afford to travel anymore under this government.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Does that have something to do with the estimates?

 

MR. COLWELL: It does, it definitely does. The minister brought it up. What are the staffing levels for E-Services and the caseload and the sort of jobs that the staffing levels do there?

 

MR. MACDONELL: In E-Services there are nine FTEs.

 

MR. COLWELL: Just nine. That's very positive. Has that changed much in the last two or three years?

 

MR. MACDONELL: It has gone up by two.

 

MR. COLWELL: But you've increased services at the same time?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Member and minister if you don't mind, on these short snappers the chairman will just sit back and let you go a little.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay, try to make it short questions for short answers.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: When you get into the long stuff, I'll intervene.

 

MR. COLWELL: Has there been anything removed from E-Services or is it just continually adding new services the last couple of years?

 

MR. MACDONELL: We took out the horse and buggy registration part - no, it looks like nothing removed, no. There are generally services added.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay, I'm going to go to the Operations Centre, increases by about 0.3 per cent over estimate and actual, and actually declined by 4.5 per cent from last year's forecast to estimate. What's the reason for that?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Is your question about the estimate 2011-12 to the forecast in 2011-12, or is it estimate 2011-12 to the estimate in 2012-13?

 

MR. COLWELL: You actually had, it's 0.3 per cent over estimate and it's the actual last year's one, I believe it's 0.3 per cent estimate over estimate, it showed an actual decline of 4.5 per cent from last year's forecast, just last year's.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Okay, see, our number shows from our estimate to our forecast was an increase of about $464,000 but it's a bad debt provision. It's placed there but we don't know whether we'll hit it or need it, you know, and so for 2012-13 the estimate is really only up by $25,000.

 

MR. COLWELL: Yes, I can understand that, that's pretty hard to estimate no matter how you do it.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes.

 

MR. COLWELL: What programs are handled by the Operations Centre, what are all the programs handled?

 

MR. MACDONELL: The Contact Centre and the Business Registration unit and it provides audit support for all the front-line centres.

 

MR. COLWELL: How many staff would be in that department?

 

MR. MACDONELL: One hundred and two. There were 40 of those already included in the Contact Centre and 40 in Business Registration. So there's about 20 more than we haven't identified.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay. Over the last year, and I think you might have already touched on this, what staff changes have been made over the last year on the Operations Centre?

 

MR. MACDONELL: We took over some work for Tourism, and we added three people.

 

MR. COLWELL: The work you took over for Tourism, what was that exactly?

 

MR. MACDONELL: The ordering of the Doers' and Dreamers' Guide.

 

MR. COLWELL: What increases in funding have taken place in the Operations Centre, any increase in funding? I know you've added a few things.

 

MR. MACDONELL: An increase of $25,000, which there was some savings there - probably some other increased costs, but there were some savings there as well that really only netted out to a $25,000 difference.

 

MR. COLWELL: I think you might have already answered this, but each region shows a decrease in estimate over estimate basis. Is that the overtime and the other material things you took in that were accounted for in that $800,000?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes.

 

MR. COLWELL: With that $800,000 we talked about before, there has been no change in programs or staff; it's just the way you accounted - is that correct?

 

MR. MACDONELL: It was a way for us to kind of keep - it was the overtime mostly, I think. It was a way for us to have it in one location rather than every part of the division. It was just easier to manage by having it in one place to look at.

 

MR. COLWELL: I can understand that. It makes a lot of sense.

 

MR. MACDONELL: And the equipment purchases - that went there as well.

 

MR. COLWELL: And because of this stuff, there has been no change in service delivery. This is just strictly an accounting change, right? Okay.

The next thing I want to talk about is Strategy, Innovation and Registries, Page 20.4. The item in Vital Statistics came in 21.1 per cent over budget last year. How come?

 

MR. MACDONELL: We did a large scanning project for our historical documents, which will allow us a major reduction in our lease space. That was about $300,000 for that scanning project. That's why you see the increase there.

 

MR. COLWELL: That's a one-time thing?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes.

 

MR. COLWELL: Land and Property is estimated to come in almost 35 per cent higher this year than it did last year. What is the story with that one?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Okay, $1,397,000 is what you're looking at, from $1,326,000. An increase of $71,000 - we added one position.

 

MR. COLWELL: I see here under the estimates there's 104.7 full-time equivalents under the general heading. What is the breakdown of where they work and what they do?

 

MR. MACDONELL: There are 25 in Vital Statistics, 52 in Registry of Motor Vehicles, 14 in Lands and Property, 6 in Business Programs, 6 in Strategy and Innovation and 2 in the executive director's office.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay. Also, the Registry of Motor Vehicles has had an increase in their budget by over 10 per cent since 2009-10. What would cause that 10 per cent increase?

 

MR. MACDONELL: There were some salary adjustments and we're only going back the one year. Some salary adjustments, but there was $300,000 to cover the amendments to the Motor Vehicle Act where we're putting into place an appeal board so that's the big hit, at least in this one year going back to 2009. How much did you say the difference was in 2009?

 

MR. COLWELL: About a 10 per cent increase.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, I think the $300,000 for the appeal board is . . .

 

MR. COLWELL: How much was salary increases?

 

MR. MACDONELL: About $150,000.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay. Was that merit increases or negotiated increases or what would the breakdown on that be?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Mostly collective agreement increases. There would be some management increases.

 

MR. COLWELL: The collective agreement, what kind of general increase was there?

 

MR. MACDONELL: I'm going to say generally 1 per cent, but I don't know whether - it's hard to know, if everybody's on the same contract, they all kind of start and end at the same time or whatever. Generally 1 per cent, I think you can take that to the bank.

MR. COLWELL: Under Information Management Services on Page 20.5, the executive director for Information Management Services had a budget increase of 16.8 per cent or $413,000 since last year's estimate. What are the details on this increase?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Increase in the amortization of the capital assets.

 

MR. COLWELL: That covers the whole thing?

 

MR. MACDONELL: This is $383,000 of the $413,000.

 

MR. COLWELL: Where's the other $100,000-plus?

 

MR. MACDONELL: General salary increases.

 

MR. COLWELL: Since 2009-10, the executive director has seen a budget increase by approximately 30 per cent, including coming in over budget by 15.6 per cent or $382,000 last year. What was the cause of this increase?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Coming in over budget?

 

MR. COLWELL: By 15.6 per cent?

 

MR. MACDONELL: We had an increase of about $800,000 in professional services and then that was offset by about $577,000 from amortization savings.

 

MR. COLWELL: Savings, so what would the professional services be for all that money?

 

MR. MACDONELL: It was related to a point of sale project.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay, that would be the Registry of Motor Vehicles?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes.

 

MR. COLWELL: Mostly there?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Mostly there, yes.

 

MR. COLWELL: Was that a tendered contract?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes.

 

MR. COLWELL: You may have already answered some of this but, in fact, each item under the Information Management Services has increased between 30 per and 54 per cent between 2009-10 estimates with the sole exception of the Project and Portfolio Management, which has actually seen a decrease of 62 per cent, or $3 million. What happened to the Project and Portfolio Management system that reduced by 62 per cent?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before the minister responds, I would like to advise that it's exactly 10 minutes remaining in the Liberal caucus time.

 

MR. COLWELL: Time goes so fast.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Well, the difference is $16,000 and it was salary adjustments. There was turnover and the new people coming in were paid at a lower level and that caused a reduction.

 

MR. COLWELL: Maybe I didn't ask the right question or maybe I don't have the right thing down here but . . .

 

MR. MACDONELL: Was it Project and Portfolio Management?

 

MR. COLWELL: Yes. It shows as an actual and saw a decrease of 62 per cent or almost $3 million since the 2009-10 budget.

 

MR. MACDONELL: We don't have 2009-10.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay, we'll have to check our numbers and see how we did that. Anyway, what exactly does Project and Portfolio Management do?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Responsible for prioritizing, planning and delivering on the department's ongoing investments and information management and related technology.

 

MR. COLWELL: It sounds like a pretty busy job when you're always changing technology. What are the staffing levels in the Project and Portfolio Management?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Twelve FTEs.

 

MR. COLWELL: Is that pretty consistent or does that float a bit?

 

MR. MACDONELL: No change from last year.

 

MR. COLWELL: Have there been any programs cancelled or removed from that Project and Portfolio Management?

 

MR. MACDONELL: You know, projects get completed, new projects get added on, but probably no significant difference from what the group handles at any one time.

 

MR. COLWELL: So it's really a project-driven operation that addresses issues that other sections of the department would have.

 

Program Management and Corporate Services, executive director, shows an increase this year by 9.4 per cent or $76,000. What is that for?

 

MR. MACDONELL: We've created a case manager for a one-year term to deal with employee attendance management.

 

MR. COLWELL: That's just a short term.

 

MR. MACDONELL: It's a one-year term, at least for now.

 

MR. COLWELL: That will be gone next year?

 

MR. MACDONELL: I'm thinking, unless we renew it, but for now it's only one year. The plan is it will be gone next year.

 

MR. COLWELL: So it's a project-driven job again. The item Audit and Enforcement has increased by 67 per cent since 2009-10 and 34.5 per cent or $1.5 million this year alone. Why the big increase there?

 

MR. MACDONELL: From a hearing at the URB, they recommended that we put in place a petroleum pricing tracking system and it's $1.5 million and that's what that cost is.

 

MR. COLWELL: So that tracking system, what will that do? What is that supposed to do? Is it supposed to make sure that people are charging the right price at the pumps or what?

 

MR. MACDONELL: It will track pricing across the province. It will ensure that stations are in compliance with minimum/maximum pricing. It would also give some information around promotions that occur in one area of the province and what the impact of that is - whether they actually draw business from some other area of the province. It's just a blank area in data to analyze the questions that we get around regulation, price structure, formula and I think to ensure that the consumers are protected so that we know that the stations are in compliance with minimum and maximum pricing.

 

MR. COLWELL: It was $1.5 million to find that out?

 

MR. MACDONELL: To put the system in. If we could do it cheaper, we'd be very pleased to do that.

 

MR. COLWELL: I totally believe that - not a question about it at all. It seems like a lot of money to find out if the price of gas is in place. How was that financed? That was financed out of the 1 cent a litre or whatever it is - did you manage to get money from the 1 cent a litre that comes from the gas pumps?

 

MR. MACDONELL: It's .0009 cents per litre is funded by industry.

 

MR. COLWELL: Yes and it funded this?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay. What kind of programs are handled by Audit and Enforcement?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Audit and compliance support in the areas of fuel, tobacco and various provincial taxation and regulatory programs.

 

MR. COLWELL: What are the staffing levels in the Audit and Enforcement?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Thirty-four.

 

MR. COLWELL: Have there been any staffing changes, either more people or less people than in the last year?

 

MR. MACDONELL: A decrease of two.

MR. COLWELL: A decrease of two - is that permanent?

 

MR. MACDONELL: We think it is.

 

MR. COLWELL: Have there been any programs cancelled or removed or added to audit enforcement?

 

MR. MACDONELL: No, not over the past year.

 

MR. COLWELL: Corporate Development, this one has grown by only by 1.5 per cent. What does Corporate Development do?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: With the answer of this, that will conclude the Liberal caucus time of one hour.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Provides leadership, coordination of the department's strategic planning and corporate functions, including business planning, quality assurance, FOIPOP, Administration, OHS and Facilities Management.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. That concludes the Liberal time frame. We will turn over to the Progressive Conservative caucus for one hour.

Before doing that, I would just like to say if you are doing line by line, pretend there is no chairman here and just go at each other. But if you are talking policy, the chairman will recognize you, and make sure it is a recognition by the chairman.

 

The honourable member for Victoria-The Lakes.

 

MR. KEITH BAIN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. First of all I want to thank the honourable member for Inverness for giving me the opportunity. I'm just going to be asking a couple of questions and be sharing the rest of the time with the member for Inverness.

 

The question I have is concerning the Emergency Services Provider Fund that is provided to volunteer fire departments, HAZMAT teams and ground search and rescues throughout the province. I know that the budget does contain allowances for the grants to be this year but I guess the concern I have is the calls that I've received from fire departments within my constituency is because the grant program has become so restrictive at this point.

 

It is a maximum of $20,000 and it is 50-50 cost shared, the grant up to $20,000. Previously it had been buildings and equipment and now it's phasing just into - on the fire department side - firefighting essentials and no one is arguing that.

 

I guess a letter that was sent out from your department says that fire departments can only apply for assistance for one item, there can't be duplications. So in other words, unless everybody is reading the letter wrong, and I don't believe they are - I'll just give you an example. In the letter it says that it's for funding such things as breathing apparatus, bunker suits, jaws of life, et cetera. It is restrictive in the fact that if it's only one item - and again, it's a real problem for a small volunteer fire department that might need two bunker suits and two breathing apparatus, they cannot apply for two bunker suits and two breathing apparatus. They are restricted, they can only apply for one or the other.

 

I'd just like to get the minister's comments on that, if I could.

 

MR. MACDONELL: That's true. The number of applications was so high that in order to try to give everybody something, or some people nothing, that's the reason we restricted it a bit.

 

MR. BAIN: I think what that does is put a real hardship on a small volunteer fire department in a community.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Is that harder than not getting anything at all?

 

MR. BAIN: No, it's not, but let's be realistic here, too. A bunker suit is one thing, that's your protection, but it's not much good without the breathing apparatus that goes with it. So therefore, why would a fire department apply for a bunker suit this year, knowing full well that they can't apply for anything again for another two years, it's not doing much good if they can't get the breathing apparatus to go with it.

 

I guess that's the concern that's being expressed to me. It's just something that I respectfully would ask you, as minister, and your department to look at, so that small, rural fire departments aren't held at ransom here - ransom is not the right word but they are restricted in what they can get.

 

MR. MACDONELL: If you want to send us that specific one - it wasn't just the case that we were getting an application from this fire department and an application from another fire department and lots of applications, one from each individual fire department, we were getting more than one application from the same fire department.

 

If you want to send us that one specifically, we can take a look.

 

MR. BAIN: Thank you. One application, I fail to understand what you mean because in the application process, up until now, you list the requirements of what you want - two bunker suits, two breathing apparatus. You provide your quotes with those and we'll say if it came to $12,000 in total, just hypothetically, fire departments know that they are responsible for $6,000 of that. But now they are restricted, it has to be one line, it has to be either two bunker suits or two breathing apparatus.

 

I think you have to look at the gravity of what that is actually doing to those small, rural departments. I guess that's why I'm bringing it forward, because it is a concern. I have 13 fire departments in my constituency. Some of them haven't applied because they can't afford to apply, they can't come up with the 50 per cent and they realize that and have started fundraising drives themselves, so that maybe next year they can apply.

 

The whole purpose of the thing should be the safety of the individuals who are out there fighting the fire. As I said before, a bunker suit to go into a burning building is no good if you don't have the breathing apparatus to go with it. I'm speaking from 25 years as a volunteer fire chief and I know darn well I would never send anybody into a burning building without a breathing apparatus, nor would I send somebody in without a bunker suit. They are both in tandem but they are separated in your application.

 

MR. MACDONELL: In something where one device kind of has a complementary device - in other words, there's no point in having this without that - we'd be glad to take a look at that. What it is going to mean is that something else that is not connected in that way may be falling off the list. I mean the pot is not getting bigger so if it's something that would make it easier for them, if they need two of these and two of those and reasonable people would think those four things would go together, we can take a look at that. That might be a good thing to be doing but it's going to mean that some other thing, unconnected or whatever, they may not get, they would have to apply the next year. Anyway, we'd be glad to take a re-look at that policy and see if we can make it more sensibly applicable to the way they operate.

 

MR. BAIN: Thank you, minister. I guess that's where I'm going. So it's not restrictive in that case but the two of them in tandem provide the necessary service. I'll use the example of Bay St. Lawrence Fire Department and that's the first that brought it to my attention. They need both bunker suits and breathing apparatus and a fire department half an hour away in Cape North needs them both, too. They are almost afraid that they might have to - one would order six bunker suits, the other would order six breathing apparatus, in order to - and they don't want to do that. They want to be able to say, we need two bunker suits, Cape North needs four, and apply by that process.

 

I thank you and I would hope that that be taken in consideration, that more than one item can be considered, provided the two of them are something that work together.

 

MR. MACDONELL: They are complementary.

 

MR. BAIN: Exactly.

 

MR. MACDONELL: I've had only one meeting with the provincial firefighters organization . . .

 

MR. BAIN: The Maritime Firefighters.

 

MR. MACDONELL: So I just wonder, do the local fire departments kind of voice concerns around a program like this, up through them? We're trying to set up a structure where they actually - I think for that organization they never knew who to go to in government, like who is actually kind of our department and that we can actually have a contact person and we have issues, you know for volunteer fire departments or for fire departments generally. So that is something we're trying to take a look at.

 

I think we determined LAE is the lead and we have two deputies. Yes, there is the Fire Services Advisory, so the deputies for Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations and for Labour and Advanced Education are both on that committee. So it's kind of a portal into government for them.

 

I just wonder if departments voice that through a provincial organization around - I don't think we're getting any correspondence that indicates kind of a more global scale. As a matter of fact, I don't know, other than the application for those things, I don't think anybody writes to say, have you considered this in your program.

 

MR. BAIN: It certainly might be a good suggestion but up until now, I guess fire departments have had the choice to list their requirements, okay, which could be, again - I'm sorry to be repetitive, they might need bunker suit, breathing gear, hoses, nozzles and they could list them, provided they could come up with their 50 per cent of the money and that's where they go because that is their specific need.

 

I think fire departments have become very familiar with the program itself and it hasn't been until this year when they see that "one item" thing in the letter that some flags have gone up. The numbers, because of the program being restrictive, that you can only apply every three years now, should be lowering because the program has been in effect, I believe, this is the fourth year, if I'm not mistaken, I think it's around four years. So the numbers of applicants should be down.

 

Now, you're going to have a flip-over, that some of them are going to start reapplying but at this point the number of applicants should be lower than it has been, because of the two-year program.

 

I know that in a lot of cases within various municipalities - in Victoria County, for example, they have a Fire Chiefs Association where the chiefs get together and they discuss things. Maybe that might be an avenue to approach government on but everybody's needs are different, every fire department's need is different, every community's needs are different as well.

 

I guess, assuming I've got your assurance that if a fire department like Bay St. Lawrence wants to apply for bunker suits and SCBAs, which are, together, necessary for the safety and protection of the firefighter, that they would be allowed to do that.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Well tell them to send it in, we'll take a look at it again. We're going to have to look at the whole policy but if they need two complementary items, we'd be willing to take a look at the possibility of getting those for them.

 

Our restriction might be purely on the cost. In other words, one department makes a request that is $5,000 and another one makes a request that is $10,000. One of the things that I wondered about was okay, if both of these departments can't reapply for three years and one has $5,000 worth of help and one got $10,000 worth of help, that doesn't really make any sense to me. It would seem to me that the one that got $5,000 worth of help should be able to apply again. So we should set a maximum amount that any department can have and if you - say the maximum amount that any department could have in three years is $15,000; one department gets $15,000 this year, another department gets $5,000. Well they should get $5,000 next year and then $5,000 the next year.

 

To say that because one applied and got twice the money that somebody else needed, and they are both restricted, doesn't strike me as . . .

 

MR. BAIN: Again, I guess that goes to their ability to lay out that money. But if, like you say, if it is spread out over three years, it is quite possible that it could be reached that way.

 

Anyway, Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for his response and I will be passing the word on. I ask that even if there could be some correspondence go out from your department, just because that letter is implanted in the fire departments' minds that they are only allowed to apply for one item.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Well you're raising the issue about a fire department, so have them write us again and we'll take a look at it.

 

MR. BAIN: Okay, thank you, and thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Inverness.

 

MR. ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, minister, for the opportunity. My first question, we continue to read letters to the editor in the newspaper and continue to hear discussion about equalization. There are some people around the province who don't feel that municipalities are treated equally when it comes to equalization funds. I was just wondering if you had some comments to make on that and your position on that.

 

MR. MACDONELL: I don't know if you would know - you probably do because equalization certainly seems to be a Cape Breton issue. I was thinking Inverness. The CBRM met with the Premier a year or so ago and this was the issue that they raised. The Premier's response was, well we won't just look at equalization, we'll look at the whole envelope of funding programs, that we have to try to help municipalities meet their commitments to service and projects that either the federal government or we kind of impose on them - you know, you have to do this based on waste water changes or whatever. That's what we're doing right now, we're doing a fiscal review which will encompass all of the programs offered by government and equalization will be part of that.

 

To be more pointed to your question we have analyzed the equalization program and find it to be pretty much ballpark for what's offered across the country in other provinces but it is one we are going to re-examine through that fiscal review and see whether there is some wiggle room to do something different with that.

 

MR. MACMASTER: You are correct, it has never been an issue, certainly not a significant issue in Inverness County. Strangely enough it came up in my by-election debate and I was kind of surprised to hear it come up, and I think it was somebody who was attending the debate from out of town. But would it be your understanding that the case they're trying to put forward is that when the province receives the federal equalization transfer that they should be spending it equally based on population in each county of the province. Which I guess, by extension, if you look at one budget, the Department of Health and Wellness, there would be an expectation of, let's say, a cardiac surgeon to be in every county of the province, which we know is not practical, it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make sense because we don't need a lot of those types of surgeons, they're very specialized, that they would likely be in a place like Halifax or another large centre. Is that your understanding, is that what they're trying to communicate? I'll let you speak to it.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Well, you're probably aware that CBRM went to court on this issue and that the court said that there was no constitutional requirement for equalization at all, I think is really what it came down to. There is no correlation between the federal equalization and how that's doled out federally to the provinces compared to our program. Ours wasn't really designed to be a match, just a provincial version of the federal program. What we were - well I guess I can say "we" but we didn't create it - but the idea was that there were municipalities that because of their population makeup, number and whatever, their ability to deliver services to their people was handicapped by certain conditions. A formula was created to incorporate these factors to determine how much a particular area would get, if any - because HRM doesn't get any and presently CBRM gets about half of it. The rest of the municipal units divvy up the rest.

 

There is no correlation, and I think what we're trying to do is help, and it's like everything, if you had more money you could do more but presently, I think, our view is that we're trying to have a formula which puts the help in a place that needs it. Although I think when people realize that CBRM gets about half of the equalization pot they kind of look at you in a surprised way because they are thinking they are much harder done by. Their complaint is that they should have more.

 

Anyway, hopefully the fiscal review, when it looks at that, may determine that either the formula should be tweaked, maybe there are some other components that we haven't considered in the formula or maybe some things could be removed. We'll have an analysis of that to try to determine if their case holds water. If it does, we'd be glad to look at the adjustment to that, I think.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Does that equalization pot come out of your department? If it does, approximately how much would it be in total?

 

MR. MACDONELL: It's $30.5 million, funded significantly, I guess, through the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, and also a component of that is taxes paid by Nova Scotia Power to the province, which funds a significant portion of that.

 

MR. MACMASTER: So I guess, minister, your overall position is you don't see anything changing dramatically with respect to this subject that keeps being brought up about equalization between the municipalities?

 

MR. MACDONELL: I don't know that it's fair for me to say that I don't think it's going to change - it would seem a bit disingenuous to tell them we'd like to look at the whole envelope of funding and include equalization in that package of things that we'll look at. So I'm not sure that it will change but I think we'd be willing to look to see if there's a place that it could change that would possibly be more advantageous to the municipal units, and I guess I have to say more advantageous to CBRM because they're the ones that raised it.

 

I don't hear it much from the other units, which are getting significantly less. All of the municipalities, I think, have projects, as much as we had the Building Canada and other programs, there never seems to be enough, so whatever it is possible to do to help them, I think we feel like we should.

 

To a point, the whole notion of how we help is something we should include in that. We're trying to encourage more collaboration in service delivery and so on, between municipal units and to try to help cut their costs. So I think we have to be somewhat careful about if we're always going to ride in with a cheque to help out, there's not much incentive for them to look to their neighbour and say, can we share in this service delivery and reduce our tax rate for our residents? So it's kind of a double-edged sword, to be helpful but I guess the question of where and how we do that, in order that we're not continuing to perpetuate a problem that we see being generated sometime, that there could be more co-operation.

 

MR. MACMASTER: The next question I have is around municipal amalgamation. Are there any amounts budgeted in this year's budget to support a UNSM-led review of municipal units?

 

MR. MACDONELL: We've funded the Towns Task Force, which was about $100,000. Did we spend it? I know that for a while we didn't - we spent about $75,000 on the Towns Task Force, and we have $150,000 in the budget for the fiscal review.

 

From what I've seen of the preliminary work of the Towns Task Force on the recommendations, it really looks like a very reasonable direction that they want to go. I guess my worry would be that we'll come back to the same place because I think some of the municipal units that are not towns may not be all that impressed with the task force recommendations. So it just brings us to that place of - I don't think they're saying amalgamation in this task force but they are looking at ways that they can partner with their neighbours on shared delivery of service and so on that helps minimize their tax burden and their costs. So we'll see what the final analysis on that is but I think for some months now we've said we're not going to force amalgamation on anybody. We have been trying to encourage municipal units to come together on their own where they can find common ground and work on the things that are easy for them and then think about those bigger questions, you know, as they develop a relationship and a mechanism for looking at things.

 

So I think our commitment to them is we would like to be there with you to help you along this road. It's not our desire to abandon them and say you guys do this and don't call us, we'll call you. So, anyway, we have people and expertise and not a lot of money but, you know, we probably can try to be helpful.

 

MR. MACMASTER: It's not an easy one and I know a lot of the representatives who represent those areas, they're passionate and they're proud of their independence, to be able to represent an area, and I can't blame them for that. We all probably feel the same about our provincial constituencies.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Sure, yes.

 

MR. MACMASTER: The next question I have is around FTEs and, you know, I've spoken about this in the Legislature. The numbers went from budgeted last year from 940 down to 833 actual and now they're back up to 926 budgeted for this year. So I guess we're seeing an amount of staff budgeted for which there are dollars attached to that. There are about 100 people fewer than estimated which is greater than 10 per cent in this case of the department FTE numbers that were not used but yet we see them budgeted for again this year. Why are we seeing that? Like, in just looking at the numbers, one would think if the department ran last year with 833 people, we would see close to that number this year?

 

MR. MACDONELL: We had a similar kind of number difference last year. We have quite a high turnover in staffing and that's probably at the public interface I think, you know, Access Centres and so on, we get a fair turnover of people.

 

MR. MACMASTER: But let's say you had 833 last year and if somebody leaves tomorrow, you're down to 832 but you still have that position open and budgeted for so it could be replaced and I understand with probably a lot of positions you have, especially if they're service-oriented, they need to be replaced right away or they're probably even planned for before. So what I would think is if you have 833 positions budgeted for and say you've got a turnover of 100, at any point in time you're fluctuating, but if your maximum number is 833 and you could run the department on that last year, why would you need to add another 100 people this year if you didn't use them last year?

 

MR. MACDONELL: We haven't added 100, we've decreased our net count by 14.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, minister, and I do see that but if you look, that's your estimate last year to your estimate this year, but if you look at your actual last year to your estimate this year, it's actually increasing from 833 up to 926.

 

MR. MACDONELL: The better number is either actual/actual or estimate/estimate, because if somebody leaves, that would be a full-time person. So if we're going to replace them fairly quickly, then it's probably going to be a part-time person that we've already got in the system. So if we move them into that position, then we've got a vacancy. It's kind of a domino effect, so you always are missing a person, I guess. It's kind of an odd way to say it.

 

It's not that we have people kind of on the sidewalk that we're paying just in case we lose somebody, but we have to take them - more than likely it would be the person who has some experience in the part-time stream that gets the job in the full-time stream but there's going to be a gap there for a while, for a month or for whatever, two months. Then that's what shows up here.

 

MR. MACMASTER: I'm not going to give up on this one too easily.

 

MR. MACDONELL: A more accurate way to look at it would be if you look at the estimate line to the estimate line, or the actual line to the actual line, rather than the estimate to the actual, would give you a little clearer number, I think.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Just to your last point, wouldn't somebody who is considered part-time, say they were 50 per cent part-time, would they not be accounted for in the numbers as a 0.5 FTE already?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes.

 

MR. MACMASTER: So if they were and you had 833 last year, in actual terms, and you were trying to make an estimate for this coming year, and recognizing that some of the 833 are part-time and they are accounted for as 0.5 or 0.3 or 0.8, wouldn't it make sense that in this coming year that you would be looking at a number similar to what the department ran on last year, which was 833 people?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Well that's what we're saying from actual to actual.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Well I guess my question would be, why are you going from actual back up to an estimate that departs so much from the actual?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Well I guess because we try to have continuous service. But if somebody leaves partway through the year and you wind up that they've only been there 0.8 . . .

 

MR. MACMASTER: For eight months?

 

MR. MACDONELL: If you have a 10-month year, that would work. So if you have someone who is there 10 months but not there two months, so you have them 0.7-something. So even though the job is there as a 1 FTE but they haven't been there as 1 FTE, they've been there 0.something of an FTE, and if you get enough of those then you have a number that indicates the change. That's what goes on.

 

MR. MACMASTER: This amuses me. I'm not saying that you're not being truthful or that you're not explaining it, but to somebody who looks from the outside - if you had an organization that had X number of people one year and were able to run it and get the job done and produce X number of widgets or whatever the organization was doing, one would think that the following year, if production was going to be the same, that you'd have the same people requirement.

 

I guess what concerns me is when these budgets are being put together, if we add another 100 employees at, say, a cost of - if you include the wages, the work space, the telephone expense, the pension benefits and all that, you're probably up to $100,000. Maybe it's less, but assuming it's $100,000 per employee; you add 100 employees, there's $10 million on a $270 million budget and you're getting upwards of maybe a 3 per cent variance. So if the government says, well, we're going to cut departmental expenditure by 2 per cent, you're not really cutting it. You come in well under budget and say, look at the great work we did, but really it was only because the FTE numbers were modified to make it look like you needed 900-some people. Really, again, this coming year, you'll run the department with 833 again. I guess that's how it looks to me.

 

MR. MACDONELL: It's not the same 833. What happens is that there are enough gaps with people leaving and so on to require some other FTEs to fill in. In effect you probably got the 833 impact, but if you didn't lose 100-some part of that 833, which you had to backfill with 100-some to do that, that's the variance that you see. We're not trying to add 100 new bodies to the 833; we're trying to plan on the 833. We did it this year with 833; we're going to try to do it next year with 833. The only problem is that if you took a person as parts of a person - like 0.5 or 0.8 or whatever - we'd probably try to hit the 833 component even though we lost people, but we still have to put them down as additional whatevers to make up whatever we lost.

 

MR. MACMASTER: I'm going to stop torturing you with this.

 

MR. MACDONELL: In order to get 800 people to show up to work you have to have 900 FTEs.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Say that again, please.

 

MR. MACDONELL: In order to get 800 people to show up to work - FTEs - you need 900. We just don't have the other 100 standing around doing nothing, paying them.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Yes. I guess what's running through my mind though is if you've got 800 people showing up to work and you're paying for 800 people, why not budget for 800 people?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Then we'd only have 700 show up to work and nobody to replace them. We had 170 job competitions in that division last year.

 

MR. MACMASTER: So like 170, say - maybe if they all happened at one time, for instance, you'd have 170 FTE positions that would be vacant, but that would still be budgeted for. So you're saying that's the 926 number budget for this year.

 

MR. MACDONELL: In order to deliver the same service - and something we run into a fair bit is overtime and that's simply because if you get backlogged because somebody is not there then if people are still there when you go to close up, then somebody has to service them. We don't kick them out, so that costs money. If we're not paying somebody, you know, like if somebody left and we don't have the position filled, then we have salary savings there to reflect that.

 

MR. MACMASTER: You mentioned a number of about 176 were vacant throughout the year - sorry, not the minister but I believe I heard one of his staff mention that. Out of those 176, would some of that be, could you break down the percentage, not specifically but in rough terms, X per cent would be from sick leave, maybe X per cent, I'm trying to think of an illness, short-term disability, or something?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Probably 90 per cent of that are people taking another job in the department because these are kind of entry level jobs - like you're in, you're in the system, so if something else comes up, you might apply to move to it.

 

MR. MACMASTER: There was something mentioned in the Throne Speech about decentralization of government services. Now, I know Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations have offices all over the province already. So you're quite decentralized as it is but are any parts of the department being considered for a move elsewhere in the province?

 

MR. MACDONELL: The minister hasn't thought that, I can tell you that.

 

MR. MACMASTER: So is there any amount budgeted in the departmental budget for this coming year to look at that?

 

MR. MACDONELL: No, I don't think.

 

MR. MACMASTER: My next question, through the department you always provide an enormous amount of services for government, do you look at the processes for each service and break them down by cost? Say if you're issuing whatever, a type of licence, do you break down the cost that is required to deliver, to produce, I guess to analyze the forms and to approve it and to provide the licence, et cetera?

 

MR. MACDONELL: I'm pretty sure we have a good idea. It may be difficult to take a particular item and nail it down only in that we have people who work in offices who do two or three things. They might work on debtor assistance or residential tenancies so it might be hard to say, well, you're doing point something of that, but I mean I think we can give you what we pay for paper or if it was kind of a stand-alone item, you would probably know what it cost to make a licence plate. We could determine a transaction cost, you know, we think that roughly this costs us this much and that's what we charge our citizens for but it's not always kind of just a one, even though the person is dealing with one thing, for our costs it's not necessarily one thing. Does that help at all?

 

MR. MACMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I guess the purpose, the reason I'm asking these questions, I think we all agree that we need to try to make life more affordable for Nova Scotians. Some of us even used it in our campaign literature and I guess when I look at things that happen outside of government, you know, companies have competition, they have to bring a service to market - the best service for the best price - and I guess what I would like to see in government is to see processes looked at and maybe they could be made more efficient and maybe it's also a matter of asking the employees if you're working on something, is half the form kind of a waste of time, is all the information really necessary, are we capturing it somewhere else? The purpose being, if you reduce the amount of time to deliver the service, it becomes less expensive, then maybe you can give people a break on the fees required to pay for a licence and so on. I guess that's what I'm trying to get at. If you have any comment on that.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Good point. Actually I think we spend 90 per cent of our time trying to determine how we can do things cheaper and therefore have less cost, less bureaucracy, less red tape.

 

Let me try to think of some examples. Well Access to Business and I think we had a $400,000 saving on costs for delivering services to people through that program that we've initiated.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Which program was this?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Access to Business. The motor vehicle permit renewal, probably the on-line, as much as we can get people to do things on-line. We have to have the technology in place and spend the money to have it there so people can do it, but there's a kind of upfront cost but the more Nova Scotians that will do things on-line, it's far cheaper in the long run to do that.

 

We invite internal audit so that we can have somebody else look at our processes and determine whether or not we can shave more of the fat or inefficiencies. We've taken on the licensing of Alcohol and Gaming in this department. We've moved some of that process away from the Utility and Review Board, reduced costs that way. As much as we can try to do for Nova Scotians and we made a commitment, we're trying to balance the books of the province. We gave all the departments targets that they had to hit. All the divisions had to find efficiencies. That process goes on.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacMaster, before you ask your question, as is convention, you have 10 minutes left.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Thank you. Were any of the processes you were able to make more efficient - if there were cost savings, were any of those cost savings passed on to the fee payer, the citizen of the province? You mentioned something about a business - Access to Business, is that a program that has a fee attached to it that the fee could maybe be lowered, recognizing the cost to deliver the service has been lowered?

 

MR. MACDONELL: It didn't have a fee necessarily related to it for the client but it had a cost to us for delivering the service and that's what we were able to reduce.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Were there any services to the public, recognizing that's a good thing, but were there any services offered to the public with a fee attached where the service was made more efficient, saving on the cost side and then the savings passed on to the user fee payer?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Not that we can think of, but there was a reduction. This year we didn't have a fee increase, we had a fee increase last year but none this year.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Thank you. My next question, you've kind of alluded to this, you mentioned something about people can make on-line applications for various services. How have you been optimizing technology and I guess you're trying to give people the option to use a self-serve option on-line?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Permitting through the Registry of Motor Vehicles is probably the biggest one which has kind of moved a transaction from about seven minutes to about 20 seconds. I think that's the direction we'd like to move, more transactions and more services for people, even on-line payments by municipalities and so on, as much as we can do that. All this technology comes with a cost but we think the savings are there and eventually that means savings for Nova Scotians.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Is it cheaper to go on-line and get a - I'm trying to think of an example - like renewing your motor vehicle permit, is the fee to renew it on-line cheaper than if you go into a centre?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Not yet.

MR. MACMASTER: Is the purpose of the fee attached to the permit designed to recover the cost of the service?

 

MR. MACDONELL: There is a clause in the Finance Act that what we generate in fees, the Registry of Motor Vehicles, that's all to go to the roads. I'm thinking, Finance Act Section 79, requires that "the Estimates must include, for each fiscal year, an amount respecting the construction and maintenance of highways that is not less than the total of (a) all revenues received under Part I of the Revenue Act and (b) all fees and fines collected under the Motor Vehicle Act net of all costs associated with the collection of these fees and fines."

 

MR. MACMASTER: That's a good example and I may come back with questions later on with other fees just to see what the background is behind the cost recovery for the fee. I know I've got just a few minutes left here. The largest number that I saw on the budget savings last year moving into this year was a $12 million savings for Municipal Relations programs and services. Where did that saving come from?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Building Canada Fund, there were a number of projects that were indicated by municipalities that they wanted to do that they didn't get done, it was just about that amount actually, that really didn't get spent. I think their thought was that they had access to some federal stimulus money and that money was coming to an end this past December. So they were trying to, I think, make use of that money on those projects and so they didn't draw that money down out of the Building Canada Fund. I think that money is still there if those projects go forward.

 

Those commitments, I think, in our view that money is booked and unless it's - of course in this year they didn't use the money, they didn't go forward with those projects so at some point the rubber is going to have to hit the road, either they are going to happen or they are not.

 

MR. MACMASTER: So just to clarify, say it was $12 million, roughly, that money is going to carry forward, they can still draw on it into this coming year and that money is essentially carried forward from last year's budget into this year's budget.

 

MR. MACDONELL: It's a new pressure but it's in our budget for this year to do that.

 

MR. MACMASTER: How much time do I have left?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN You have three minutes.

 

MR. MACMASTER: I don't know how deeply we can get into anything in three minutes. If we look at the Executive Director under Programs and Services in the Service Delivery section of the department, there was a $679,000 budget increase allocated towards this office and it was up from $368,000 last year. What was the reason for that?

MR. MACDONELL: If you look at the divisions or departments below the executive director, a number of them you'll notice had a reduction from the estimate of 2011-12 to 2012-13. For management purposes, we put the overtime and equipment purchase in that line item of Executive Director so we'd have it in one place because there was overtime in a number of these line items, so it was easier to put it in one place to kind of have a view of the whole division to see what was happening there rather than kind of keep checking on where it was in any particular part of the division. That was the reason for that.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Okay, when you say the division, you're referring to the divisions below.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Programs and Services, that division.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Yes, so you'd have Northeast Region, Central Region . . .

 

MR. MACDONELL: Right.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Okay, that's good. That provides clarification. Next question, the Central Region - the budget went from $10 million to $10.8 million. That was the estimate to last year, so it looks like the actual cost last year was $10.8 million; it's back down to $10 million. What accounts for the change there? Is there anything that would stand out?

 

MR. MACDONELL: From the estimate to the forecast was basically overtime and casual relief.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacMaster, your time has expired.

 

With the indulgence of the Liberal caucus, we will have a five-minute recess and return here no later than 7:00 p.m.

[6:53 p.m. The committee recessed.]

 

[7:05 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: We will resume the Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations Supply discussions.

 

We will turn the floor over to the Liberal caucus for one hour and we will have Mr. Colwell lead.

HON. KEITH COLWELL: Mr. Chairman, just before we go back to the line by line analysis of the estimate that we've been going through - and I thank the minister for his answers and the information he has provided, some of the questions I've asked, I'd like to know how many employee contracts have been - changes that have been made in each of the fiscal years 2009-10, 2010-11, 2011-12 - that's the union contracts.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Before I continue, I want to introduce Aileen Waller-Hebb from my department and Celeste Sulliman and Susan Tate from Communications. I neglected those individuals when I did the introductions, so I didn't want people to have a morale crisis at the department.

 

I'm not going to go to 2009, I'm going to deal with what's pertinent because since we formed government, we had budget estimates for 2009-10, 2010-11, 2011-12 and my honourable colleague had every opportunity to question us in regard to those budgets, so we will take a look for contract changes, I think is what you were asking for, in the last year?

 

MR. COLWELL: Yes, really the contracts that have been negotiated in that time. I don't see why it's not relevant from the time you took power.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Because these budget estimates are for the . . . .

 

MR. COLWELL: Because some of these things could have been under negotiation at that time, so . . .

 

MR. MACDONELL: And they could have been asked at that time. Anyway, whatever we can get for you, for the present budget, because that's what the impact will be, what this budget is, if somebody has that right now? The NSGEU contract expired March 12th. It hasn't been negotiated forward yet, so there's no change there, yet.

 

MR. COLWELL: So maybe the previous contract, if we could get some information on that one that is just expiring.

 

MR. MACDONELL: It would have been a three-year contract, back to 2009 or whatever. That's available on the PSC Web site.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay, that's good. In the present contract or the new contract that's coming up, are there divisions in that, or is it one contract that will cover all employees? The new one that's coming from the NSGEU, is that going to be like one contract that will cover everybody who works under your realm, as minister, or would it be several?

 

MR. MACDONELL: It covers everyone in the union in this department.

 

MR. COLWELL: Everybody?

 

MR. MACDONELL: In all departments.

 

MR. COLWELL: So it would cover everybody, okay.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Everybody in our department is covered by one agreement.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay. I'm only interested in your department. The other departments, I'm sure someone else will ask if they are interested. So that's all available.

 

I did hear when one of your directors was talking that there's a provision in the contract now that there's no part-time workers or something to that effect, who can fill in.

 

MR. MACDONELL: There's no casual.

 

MR. COLWELL: So how do you get someone, so in order to fill those positions, you have no casuals, how do you fill in when somebody is off for a short period of time, to backfill that position, how do you do that and under contract?

 

MR. MACDONELL: We have permanent part-time people who can work up to a full FTE for relief if we need them.

 

MR. COLWELL: And the permanent part-time would be covered by the union contract, correct, and that would be the only difference in the title between a casual person and a permanent part-time because the casual person would be non-union, right?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Right.

 

MR. COLWELL: So basically what it says is no non-union workers, that's probably a better description of what we're talking about, right, I mean that would work in those type of jobs?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, but I think this is as a result of a decision - I think government across the board, I'm thinking about DNR - you know, eliminating casuals and brought those people who were casuals in as part-time or full-time because the casual positions, some people had been casual for years with no benefits, you know, so it was to be an advantage. It increased costs for government but an advantage for the workers and so I'm trying to think if that was out of some decision that government was forced to do it or if they did it on their own. (Interruption) It was part of the collective bargaining process that those people be brought in.

 

MR. COLWELL: Yes, I recall that happening and I think it was positive, especially Natural Resources people worked for the summer, laid off in the winter, and the next year they didn't know if they had a job or not. It wasn't fair and maybe some people worked there for 20 years. So, okay, I just want to get clarification on all this stuff because I know it's pretty complicated. When you work with it every day, you understand it but when you don't, like I don't, I just need to understand what's going on here.

 

You mentioned before that the employees, there were some reclassifications into bargaining units, when we were talking earlier, how many employees were reclassified in the last year or two years, whatever the case may be?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Casual conversion occurred in 2009-10. So I think really there has been no, except for people who had a classification appeal, then that would be a change but otherwise kind of structurally through the system there wouldn't be.

 

MR. COLWELL: Are there any particular divisions that might have done a wholesale reclassification of their staff or anything like that?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Not since 2009, that's when it happened everywhere in the system.

 

MR. COLWELL: How many employees under the department that you're totally responsible for, how many employees are captured under the bargaining units, a percentage or what number as compared to the ones that aren't?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Are captured in the collective agreement or bargaining unit?

 

MR. COLWELL: They're in the union, let's put it that way.

 

MR. MACDONELL: How many are in the union?

 

MR. COLWELL: Yes, as compared to people who aren't?

 

MR. MACDONELL: About 900 FTEs, of 900 FTEs there would be about 100 excluded, so there would be 800.

 

MR. COLWELL: That's of the total staff in the whole department?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, ballpark, but yes.

 

MR. COLWELL: So basically roughly 90 per cent of the staff is covered by collective bargaining. The ones that aren't would be management, those sorts of positions, would it?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, management and some administrative support.

 

MR. COLWELL: I'm asking all these crazy questions here, but I'm going somewhere with it - you know that.

 

MR. MACDONELL: We wait with bated breath.

 

MR. COLWELL: I wouldn't be worried. I was talking about - on the line by line - the Corporate Development section, it was growing only by 1.5 per cent. You told me what it was about and it seemed like a really low growth as compared to a lot of the other departments. I can see probably why it was that and the other ones had changed quite a bit. Only 1.5 per cent increase in the budget. Would that be just salary increases?

 

MR. MACDONELL: It was facilities rental adjustment so it wasn't great; it wasn't a big amount.

 

MR. COLWELL: Have there been many staff changes in that department in the last year?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Well there's 0.8 of a decrease.

 

MR. COLWELL: Someone just transferred or retired or whatever.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Transferred out.

 

MR. COLWELL: So basically that Corporate Development section is doing the same things now and they plan to do the same thing in the future for this coming year?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes.

 

MR. COLWELL: That would be why nothing has changed too much. I think you already answered some of this stuff. Let's go to the Municipal Relations on Page 20.7. The executive director's requirement in the 2009-10 budget was just under $300,000 and today it's almost $750,000. In fact, that's an increase of 155 per cent. I think you've already identified the associate deputy minister as $100,000-some of that.

 

MR. MACDONELL: That associate deputy minister is not there. That's not where you'd find it. We added a new director of Strategy and Sector Relations. That's $129,000 of it. The rest would be the municipal fiscal review that I talked about. We booked $150,000 for that.

 

MR. COLWELL: So basically there have been one or two new positions in that.

 

MR. MACDONELL: One new position and the fiscal review.

 

MR. COLWELL: Also in the Policy and Finance division it shows a 25 per cent increase from last year in the budget.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Which line item is it?

 

MR. COLWELL: I don't know which line it's on because I don't have it here in my notes.

MR. MACDONELL: What is the title you had?

 

MR. COLWELL: Policy and Finance. It's showing an increase from last year of 25 per cent. What would that be for? It's quite a substantial increase.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Some is professional services work around legal issues and monies for the municipal elections coming in the Fall.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay. How much does the province contribute to the municipal elections?

 

MR. MACDONELL: It contributes $60,000.

 

MR. COLWELL: That's distributed through all municipalities.

 

MR. MACDONELL: It pays for the elections officer.

 

MR. COLWELL: Also in that Policy and Finance, maybe you already answered this but the executive director has increased by 70 per cent, is that the individual they added to staff there.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Is increased by 70 per cent you say?

 

MR. COLWELL: Yes.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Is that for Programs and Services the executive director?

 

MR. COLWELL: No, Policy and Finance.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Okay. There is no executive director there is an executive director for Programs and Services in that division but there is no executive director for Policy and Finance.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay, well that division then, it's increased by 70 per cent.

 

MR. MACDONELL: That was the Brant Wishart, the director I indicated, a $129,000 and the $150,000 for the fiscal review.

 

MR. COLWELL: Under the grants you give to municipalities, do you have any reaction from them considering that the assessment for inflationary costs, the grants you're going to provide them won't basically keep up with that? I talked to a lot of municipal leaders and they are very, very concerned about how they are going to be able to pay for some of the things. You briefly touched on one when my colleague from the PC caucus had some questions about when it's mandated to improve their sewer systems and other things that are mandated by the province. The ones I've talked to, and I'm sure they've talked to you more in detail and they've talked to me about it, how are they going to keep up with this when it doesn't appear that the grants are going to be enough. You're not going to have enough money in the grant system to help them get through this very difficult time.

 

MR. MACDONELL: I guess it depends on the projects they have in mind because we have about $12 million that really was money associated with the Building Canada Fund that municipal units had indicated an interest to move forward on those projects, and they didn't. It's not one that I've heard from them, I have to say, around inflation on the amount of the grants that we're not keeping up. I think they are so glad to have grants at all.

 

In this year the assessments, even though they're capped to CPI, 3.9 was CPI, but they were up 6 per cent, generally, across the province. That doesn't mean that every municipality they were up 6 per cent but by and large they were. On average they were above that CPI. It's one that, I think, you're probably not going to see significant change in for at least some time. I'm not expecting any wiggle room on increasing the amounts of grants until we bring the province back to balance. Certainly not till after 2013-14 but it is one and it's because not everybody is doing the same thing at the same time on the same scale. In other words this municipal unit will do something this year and may not do anything for two years or five years.

 

That doesn't mean that we can't actually increase the amount of the grant or try to increase the amount of the grant to the project. We just have an envelope beyond which if we expend it, we don't have any more. So, in some years you might have more uptake than others and if we have some flexibility in money that hasn't been expended that we could actually help a municipality by giving a greater amount or proportion or whatever. In all seriousness it would probably be much greater than inflation, if we wanted to top it up.

 

We do have a little flexibility in that regard but as far as the actual grant envelope increasing by inflation, since we've been told to find reductions in our budgets to hit our target, that's probably not going to happen. We try to be fluid and helpful as much as we can. As it turns out, sometimes we can put dollars there that it's greater than inflation simply because we didn't get the draw on a program for a particular grant that we thought we might have and therefore we have a little more flexibility to say we can help more than we thought we might.

 

MR. COLWELL: That's nice you have some flexibility there. I realize some of the municipalities are having a really difficult time with meeting their regular expenditures and trying to get work done that they're mandated to do and also that they have to do just to keep their municipalities in line.

 

I'm going to ask some questions now on grants. There are a whole bunch of them here so if you bear with me if I can read the fine print here.

 

MR. MACDONELL: This is what we were waiting for, I think.

 

MR. COLWELL: Was it, this you were waiting for? I'm not sure you are. It's on Page 283, Aecom Canada Ltd. got a grant or whatever it was, for $50,000. What would that be for?

 

MR. MACDONELL: We partnered with Natural Resources to do a study on subsidence. That was the company that won the tender to do that.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay. I'll use one church as just an example, I'm not going to ask many about churches, the Alive Christian Church, $6,387, what sort of thing would that be for?

 

MR. MACDONELL: It's a community accessibility grant for the community hall. We don't give money to churches per se, but if they have a community hall connected or associated with it, we'll give money for the hall but not for the church.

 

MR. COLWELL: This one is probably a really easy answer for you. The Association of Municipal Administrators, $47,250.

 

MR. MACDONELL: That's for studies and development technology for e-government at the municipal level.

 

MR. COLWELL: Electronic for what?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Similar to what we do in this department, so that people could pay their taxes on-line and things like that.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay, that sounds like a good investment. Beacon House Interfaith Society for $15,000?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Okay. We can get back to you. We believe it's one of the community grants that we give through the department but we're not entirely sure whether it's accessibility or structural repair, roof.

 

MR. COLWELL: There would be an application they would have to fill in for that and some kind of program? For accessibility I know there's one.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Usually a letter, if they write us and request it.

 

MR. COLWELL: Could you provide information on that one?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, sure.

 

MR. COLWELL: I see the Better Business Bureau gets $25,000 a year. That's something that the province has been doing for a long time, isn't it?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes.

 

MR. COLWELL: I've got to ask the question, why did you give $25,000 to the Better Business Bureau?

 

MR. MACDONELL: It's a grant that we've given them for the last 15 years. I think because we view them as an organization that does a lot of work for protection of the consumer, that it's really for just the issue of sustainability for them to try to keep delivering their service for people and we see that fits pretty well along with our mandate in this department, for consumer protection.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay. It just seems to me that it's a membership organization, you have to be a member to belong to it and I just wonder - I realize it's for consumer protection but it also only represents the people who belong. So I just wonder if that's a wise investment by government because there's probably all kinds of organizations out there that sort of fit that requirement. They may be knocking on your doors if they figure this out.

 

MR. MACDONELL: I think that the people who call them are generally not their members. Like it's not - business A isn't going to call in and say about Business B. They could, but it's Mr. Smith who is saying, can you give me information about this particular company, I want to deal with them. I see they're one of your members, what's their reputation? Or just ask about a particular business and say, is it a member of your organization, because they want to deal with them, they want to know what their reputation is. They may not be a member and they can say we can't speak to that.

 

So it's really about I think the citizens who call them to get information that's helpful for consumers and not necessarily their members.

 

MR. COLWELL: Again, but it's an advantage to be a member of the Better Business Bureau if you want to hopefully promote your business as well.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Sure.

 

MR. COLWELL: Anyway, I just ask that question. Here's sort of a strange one here. It's Casino Taxi Ltd. for $45,000.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Taxis do qualify if they're providing accessible services and so this was for an accessible vehicle. That's what that money was for and I can give you some information on Beacon House, it was 2010-11, a community grant, and it was a new roof.

 

MR. COLWELL: There's one here that says Church Memorial Park, is that the name of the organization or is that just, it looks to me just like it's a church memorial park for $20,000?

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, we'll check on that for you and maybe we'll have an answer for you before we leave. We don't want you to take that for granted.

 

MR. COLWELL: Now, under these grants, so some you have defined criteria for and do you have defined, even if someone sends you a letter asking for assistance with something, an organization, I realize it has got to be an organization, are there rules around that and what are the rules for that?

 

MR. MACDONELL: There are criteria that they have to meet. Most of those are not-for-profit as far as I know. Community grants, eligible applicants or registered not-for-profit groups in Nova Scotia, the funding will be used for upgrades, repairs to existing community buildings used to hold community events and activities. Eligible projects include the following: necessary structural repairs to meet building code requirements, roof repairs and replacement, window/door replacement, furnace heating system replacement, onsite sewage system, wells and water treatment, and in emergency situations at the discretion of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. The normal level of funding is up to 50 per cent of eligible costs to a maximum of $10,000 and can be otherwise at the minister's discretion.

 

The Church Memorial was a community accessibility grant and accessible washrooms and a lift.

 

MR. COLWELL: Where would that be? Where is the location of it?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Lunenburg.

 

MR. COLWELL: Lunenburg? It's just sort of strange, it says Church Memorial Park, and if it would have said the Memorial Church or something in Lunenburg, anyway, that's great, thank you, and that one's for $20,000. So it must have been at the minister's discretion?

 

MR. MACDONELL: It must have been.

 

MR. COLWELL: An NDP riding it must be. We've got Dalhousie University here for $13,000?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, that was 2010-11, we built the criteria in 2011-12.

 

MR. COLWELL: What was that again?

 

MR. MACDONELL: That wasn't the same criteria in 2010-11 when that was given.

 

MR. COLWELL: There was different criteria then. Dalhousie University for $13,000.

MR. MACDONELL: Municipal Council Recruitment Program, Dalhousie School of Planning and Annual Conference. Workshops for people interested in municipal government and possibly being a councillor.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay, that sounds good. Here's quite a large one for the East Hants Arena Association for almost $80,000. What was that for?

 

MR. MACDONELL: We're pretty sure it wasn't this year because I've been the minister and I'd recognize something from East Hants. I'm thinking that would be considered a not-for-profit because it's run by a board of directors. It could have come out of the Building Canada Fund, could have been a grant out of Building Canada Fund. If they contributed a portion toward that but we can get you more particulars on it if you need them.

 

MR. COLWELL: One question I have with all these things is, why are these just showing up now when they were approved before?

 

MR. MACDONELL: The supplements are published from 2010-11.

 

MR. COLWELL: That's the only one we have.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes.

 

MR. COLWELL: The Ecology Action Centre, you would have been minister then, right?

 

MR. MACDONELL: No, I wasn't.

 

MR. COLWELL: Oh you weren't, okay. It was after that. The Ecology Action Centre for almost $23,000.

 

MR. MACDONELL: I don't have a description right here, we'll check and get back to you. We don't have a description by that line item what it was.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay. Halifax Regional Municipality for $56 million. What was that for?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Federal gas tax program for $23.5 million; NSPI grant in lieu of taxes for $2.17 million; Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund for $488,000 regarding Preston water and sewer; $366,000, Prospect Road recreation facility; $309,000 for Dartmouth Harbourfront Trails; $651,000 for other; Canada-Nova Scotia Infrastructure Program for $6 million re Highway No. 102 overpass; Hubley Fire Station for $1.4 million; $1.86 million regarding North Dartmouth trunk sewer; $1.8 million waste stabilization facility roof; $1.27 million re Sheet Harbour sidewalk paving; $1.48 million Herring Cove Fire Station, $2.78 million other.

Grants in lieu, provincial property, $5.99 million; HST Offset Program $3.25 million; Provincial Capital Assistance Program $2 million regarding Halifax Harbour Solutions; fire protection, $696,000; farm property grant, $55,000; other grants, $84,000.

 

MR. COLWELL: Thank you. They must have loved to get that cheque - must have been really popular that day.

 

The next one I have here is Intergovernmental Committee on Urban and Regional Research for $13,000 - almost $14,000.

 

MR. MACDONELL: This is an intergovernmental committee that does work across the country for the provinces on municipal issues, so that's what that is.

 

MR. COLWELL: Would they be civil servants who do that or regional governments, or what? Who is on that?

 

MR. MACDONELL: It's a separate body, separate from government and funded by all the provinces and the territories, collectively, to pay for it.

 

On your previous question about the $56 million, some of that is recoverable back from the federal government, to us.

 

MR. COLWELL: That's always good to have.

 

The next one I have here is the Mayflower Curling Club for $8,000.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, a community accessibility grant.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay. The Nova Scotia Planning Directors Association.

 

MR. MACDONELL: That's support for a municipal planning conference.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay. And all these churches would be exactly what you said, it would be for their community halls' accessibility or whatever.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Right, not for the church.

 

MR. COLWELL: Property Valuation Services Corporation, $131,000. I thought the municipalities were paying for that now.

 

MR. MACDONELL: It was a joint project between us and UNSM and PVS, for a single address project is what that was.

 

MR. COLWELL: The Refunds of Health Services Tax. I don't need to know the list but what sort of thing was that for?

MR. MACDONELL: Those are refunds on HST.

 

MR. COLWELL: For what sort of thing? Just give me one or two examples.

 

MR. MACDONELL: If you have a disability and you need a computer, you can get a rebate on that HST or perhaps some accessibility item, you can get a rebate for those, or for your vehicle.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay, that's fine. That's good that that happens.

 

The Salvation Army, is that the oil program, $400,000?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, the Good Neighbour Program.

 

MR. COLWELL: I can tell you from personal experience, that should be about 10 times that because it is an incredible program. It's one that I hope you can keep and grow as time goes on.

 

MR. MACDONELL: We doubled that last winter, we made it $800,000.

 

MR. COLWELL: That's good, that's very positive. A lot of people depend on that to help them out.

 

We had one here for Scouts Canada for $6,245.

 

MR. MACDONELL: We think probably a community grant of some kind, Scout's honour, we'll find that out for you.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay. This one here, Station Road Home Owners Association for $10,000.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Waste water collection system under the PCAP Program.

 

MR. COLWELL: Where is this located at, Station Road?

 

MR. MACDONELL: I think it is in Hubbards.

 

MR. COLWELL: Hubbards. I have one here again for Yellow Cab for $19,862.

 

MR. MACDONELL: That's another accessible transportation assistance, that's what that one is.

 

MR. COLWELL: Any other applications from any other taxi companies or anything.

 

MR. MACDONELL: The other one we had wasn't Yellow Cab it was Casino, you mentioned one earlier.

 

MR. COLWELL: Yeah it was Yellow Cab the other one as well. I just wonder if the other cab companies are aware of this possible grant.

 

MR. MACDONELL: It was Casino Taxi was the other one.

 

MR. COLWELL: Yes maybe it was. Yes it was, sorry about that.

 

MR. MACDONELL: They are all aware of the program.

 

MR. COLWELL: That's a good program, at least it gives some vehicles that they can move people around with that really need help.

Now, under Other, I have a numbered Nova Scotia company which is 2307407 for $336,000-plus dollars. What would that be for?

 

MR. MACDONELL: It's a lease for the Moxham Centre on Kings Road in Sydney.

 

MR. COLWELL: That's a building that you use.

 

MR. MACDONELL: It's an Access Centre.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay, and the same with the next one that's on the list here, 2376552 Nova Scotia for $68,760.

 

MR. MACDONELL: I would assume the same thing, Aberdeen Place.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay. What about 3D Datacomm for $35,579.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Member, I hate to inform you, we're having so much fun, that there is only 10 minutes left.

 

MR. COLWELL: I'll make it up tomorrow.

 

MR. MACDONELL: We'll get that for you, we don't have anything right now to indicate what that was.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay. What about ACS Public Sector Solutions Inc.

 

MR. MACDONELL: That is professional services required to provide a hosted and managed international registration program, and international fuel tax agreement solution for the Province of Nova Scotia to replace the current systems.

 

MR. COLWELL: This other one here is Adecco Employment Services Limited for $280,000.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Temporary support services, mainly for land records reform, vital statistics and motor vehicle administration.

 

MR. COLWELL: That would be an employment agency is it?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, temp service.

 

MR. COLWELL: You're allowed to use temp services but not casual under your contract?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay, that makes sense though. What about Agfa Materials Corp., what's that.

 

MR. MACDONELL: I don't have anything beside that item on that line. We'll add that to the get-back list.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay, and Alt Mapping, $268,000?

 

MR. MACDONELL: That is a Web-based maintenance tool to update civic addresses. I don't know what these acronyms are. (Interruptions) Yes, and that was the Geomatics Centre in Amherst where they do mapping. So this was a tool to update civic addresses.

 

MR. COLWELL: How much time do I have left, Mr. Chairman?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have about seven minutes left.

 

MR. COLWELL: Could you let me know when I have two minutes left if that's possible?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: I sure will.

 

MR. COLWELL: Thank you. We're continuing.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the Liberal caucus want more time tomorrow as well?

 

MR. COLWELL: Yes.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Progressive Conservatives want an hour tomorrow they've indicated.

MR. COLWELL: Yes, we do.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: So when you finish, there will be seven minutes remaining and if the Progressive Conservatives . . .

 

MR. COLWELL: They were supposed to come here for the seven minutes.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you, but they do want an hour tomorrow and you want time as well?

 

MR. COLWELL: Yes, I don't know how much time tomorrow but . . .

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you.

 

MR. COLWELL: Annex Investments Limited, $90,469.

 

MR. MACDONELL: That's the Access Nova Scotia Centre in Truro.

 

MR. COLWELL: And that's just a rental, is it?

 

MR. MACDONELL: That's a lease.

 

MR. COLWELL: A lease, okay, and Antigonish Mall Limited, that would be a lease as well?

 

MR. MACDONELL: Yes, that's Access Nova Scotia and the Land Registration Office.

 

MR. COLWELL: And F. Rowe, Computer Services for $9,000 roughly?

 

MR. MACDONELL: We think probably computer parts and repairs but we don't have any description beside that so we'll find that out for you.

 

MR. COLWELL: Okay. I'm going to interrupt this just for a second because I've got a question I want to ask and you probably can't answer this question today but it's a serious issue that happened quite a while ago. You may have no responsibility over this, but what happened in North Preston was - and it's municipal but I think it's Municipal Relations as well - a water and sewer system was put in in North Preston, some time ago, and when they installed that, it was needed and it was installed. They put fire hydrants in and come to find out - and the residents there paid on their property taxes for fire hydrants - come to find out they were just decorations. They were hooked up to the water source and when one of the fire trucks hooked on it to pump water, it actually sucked the system dry instantly because it didn't have water to supply the hydrants, and for several years the residents were paying property tax for something they didn't have.

 

Now, when I was on regional council, we went back to the system to try to get the people reimbursed for the taxes that had been paid into this and the answer came back from the mayor's office that, no, we will keep that money and upgrade the system and that took several years to do. Luckily in the process of this, the insurance companies never found out because people would have had their insurance really skyrocket because they didn't have municipal fire hydrants in the area. Is there anything that can be done by your department, and I don't need an answer today - to encourage or make the municipalities reimburse the residents of that community for taxes they paid for service they never received?

 

MR. MACDONELL: I don't know that. We'll see what we can find. I don't know if there's anything in the Act but we can get an answer for you maybe by tomorrow or the first of the week.

 

MR. COLWELL: That would be good. This is a very important topic and this is a prime example of areas that people aren't getting services they're paying for. It extends well past this, but this is a very serious one. This is black and white - there's no question about it and they did pay for service that just wasn't there and it appeared it was there, which is even worse.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Did the residents' insurance rates go down when they got supposed hydrants?

 

MR. COLWELL: I would think they did because one of the things that you have to check off on your insurance if you live in the city is how close you are to a fire hydrant and you actually have to go measure it. If you live in a rural area, they ask, where is the nearest fire department and there they ask where is the nearest fire hydrant so they know how long it takes for the fire department to get there, hook up to it and know they've got a reliable supply of water to fight the fire with. With the fire trucks that will pump 1,500 to probably 2,500 gallons a minute and there's only 200 or 300 gallons in the line, it doesn't take long to cause a problem. That could have resulted - and I'm not sure it didn't result - in the loss of some property that could otherwise have been saved if the fire department had realized that they couldn't use them, but they didn't even know. It was a misrepresentation at the time of the . . .

 

MR. MACDONELL: They'd know when the first fire happened.

 

MR. COLWELL: It took some time to find that out - actually many years - before they realized it because there were no serious fires that they hooked up to the hydrants for and they never flushed them like they would because there was nothing to flush. So it was a serious issue that the fire department was a rural fire department that serviced the area and they had the equipment to fight the fire if they would have known that these things didn't work. Everywhere else they worked they had fire hydrants, just in this one community of North Preston. If you could investigate that, I'd really appreciate it because that money has never been replaced to the people of the community - in a community that is having really, in many cases, very serious difficulty paying for their property taxes.

MR. MACDONELL: Did they use the money to upgrade the system? Did it eventually get upgraded?

 

MR. COLWELL: It eventually did, but many years later. I think it might have been under this infrastructure or some of this infrastructure program at the time and they actually had to run a huge water line all the way up through. The point I'm making is - the upgrade was fine, but the problem was they were paying for service - they were illegally collecting money under false pretences is really what it is.

 

MR. MACDONELL: I think under the Act - and my staff can correct me - municipal units have to collect taxes, but they can give a rebate. I'm thinking that the municipality had the power to rebate those people their tax money presently so they could do it.

 

MR. COLWELL: This is a really important issue for this community. Would it be possible to get a written reply on this question? I could even write you a letter asking the question if you want, whatever you want to have happen.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Member, you wanted to be notified when you had a couple of minutes left. Was that the question that you were saving for the end?

 

MR. COLWELL: Yes.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: You still have a minute or two.

 

MR. MACDONELL: If you would write us a letter, we'd be glad to respond to you. You should have something in writing.

 

MR. COLWELL: That would be great, I'll do that because this is an important issue and it's one I quite honestly never thought about asking the minister about before because it was a municipal issue but the municipalities are really responsible back to the province. If there is a loophole there that the municipalities can get away with this, maybe it's something, when you change the legislation, we should correct it.

 

MR. MACDONELL: How long ago did it happen?

 

MR. COLWELL: It was quite awhile ago and the new hydrants were just put in - I was councillor and I have been elected now nine years, this was 2003, again, I found out about it probably three or four years before that. The community didn't know way before that, so it has been many, many years.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: That concludes the Liberal caucus time for this evening. There is seven minutes remaining in our four hours tonight and it is my understanding that the Progressive Conservative caucus will want to resume tomorrow and there will be 53 minute starting time. The Liberal caucus also wants to have another go in relation to Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations as well so we will be back here tomorrow.

 

The honourable member for Hants West.

 

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Mr. Chairman, I have just a couple of quick questions, I know we don't have much time. I want to talk a little bit about the small towns in Nova Scotia, I know you are quite cognizant of what is going on there and has been for some time, I guess it's probably fair to say. The Towns Task Force has got a report due at the end of August this year and the government has helped to fund that. I am a little curious, minister, what your thoughts are and your hopes are coming out of that report, knowing - and I will speak specifically - I know you were in my area not too long ago, down around Windsor, West Hants, and met with councillors, as ministers normally do, what you are hoping to get out of the report, or are hoping to see because you know there are issues out there in regard to the overlap of services and so on.

 

MR. MACDONELL: I met with the Town of Windsor and the Municipality of Hants West. I have seen a draft of the report, I think - at least of what they have been able to accomplish so far, I think the recommendations seem fairly sensible. I don't know that there is anything in them that I can say - because I think the Premier has made the point and I think I have tried to make the point that we're not going to force amalgamation. We do encourage them and other municipal units to share as much as they can. I think there is a subdivision or something that they both tax?

 

MR. PORTER: They have an overlap of services there, through the industrial park, there's a variety of agreements through the Municipality of West Hants and the Town of Windsor, as an example.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Can you make your question more pointed? I'm not sure if I am being too vague in my answer but I was just wondering if you could make your question more pointed if you think I haven't answered it.

 

MR. PORTER: I guess it is specific around the idea of some of the issues going on there. I know you are probably aware of them. The Mayor of Windsor had put out in the paper some time ago about possibly annexing part of the county and of course that caused a great uproar. It would not be surprising, people, the first thing they see when they see that annexation piece is $2 per $100 and if you're talking Falmouth, Three Mile Plains, Currys Corner, that area there, that's a lot of taxes, a lot of dollars, a lot of increases in your taxes - about double, because the county is around 88 cents or less than 90 cents, I think.

 

We have a number of these, we've had them in the past, this is one that is alive and well right now that something has to be done because Windsor, just like many small towns in this province, is struggling and are going to continue to struggle from what I see. I mean, I live in that town and staff have been laid off this winter, which is the first time in a long time that that has happened. We have seen a reduction in spending in a lot of areas; we used to contribute to grants and recreation and organizations and all of those things. I think we have seen a lot of cutbacks there in trying to manage that but you can only do that for so long too.

 

So, although you're not willing to speak to the fact, or support - am I reading that right, minister, that you do not support or the Premier does not support - or I guess your words were "not going to force" amalgamation but would support it if it was put forward? Just to be clear on the record for that.

 

MR. MACDONELL: Our view all along is that this should come from the grassroots, it has to come from the community, if they want to go down that road we would be glad to be there to help, but as far as us saying, you are going to do this, we are not there. I think your thought - because you didn't really make it a question - about annexation, I think there is a process in place about how a municipal unit would do that which wouldn't necessarily involve us at all. So we would, I think, let them decide whether they are going to go down that road.

 

MR. PORTER: I think it is probably fair to say - and I will just wrap up with this - this is not a new issue and it is probably going to go on for some years to come and provincial governments have tended to stay away from this - because the towns are, I think, asking and I'm sure the recommendations, knowing that the Mayor of Windsor is on that task force, I would be shocked if some of the recommendations coming forward weren't asking for more of the decisions to be made at the provincial level, to force or to direct somehow that amalgamation - or call it whatever you want, annexation, or something yet to be named. I don't know what that is, there must be something there that will work.

 

I agree with you on the fact - and I have said this to all my municipal units - that you should start from your end because if something does come about whereby - I don't want to use the word force but if something comes about where there are going to be some amalgamations, I'll use for the lack of a better term tonight, it would be good to have some input into that instead of some direction that you may not be happy with later on. I do support that as well.

 

I think, coming out of that recommendation, there will be some discussion on the province stepping in to save the towns, and I think that is the towns' perspective and their mentality, that they need somebody to step in and say, we can't do any more, here you go.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: That concludes our four hours of estimates for today. We will resume tomorrow with a start of 53 minutes for the Progressive Conservative caucus and then move on to the Liberal caucus.

 

Thank you for your participation.

 

[The subcommittee adjourned at 8:12 p.m.]