HALIFAX, THURSDAY, APRIL 28, 2011 

 

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY 

 

2:20 P.M. 

 

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Clarrie MacKinnon

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister, members, staff, we are about to begin the Subcommittee on Supply and the estimates for Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, continuing where we left off on Tuesday. The time is 2:20 p.m. and we will begin a new, full hour for the Progressive Conservative Party.

 

The honourable member for Victoria-The Lakes.

 

MR. KEITH BAIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and welcome, minister. I'm glad I'm the first one here today because I'm sure after your success last evening there'll be nothing but positive answers come out from you this afternoon.

 

On a more serious note, before I ask any questions, minister, I'd like to thank members of your department for something they did for the Neil's Harbour Co-op Fishery, in Neil's Harbour. There was a challenge that the co-op faced and it was addressed by the department. As a result of that, over 80 people were employed during a period when the roads were closed and what wouldn't have happened, so I want to acknowledge and thank the department for doing it.

 

Since we're talking the north of Smoky area, get into some discussion on two fronts, I guess. The Meat Cove disaster - and that's exactly what it was - resulted in a lot of damage done to the Bay St. Lawrence road, in particular the Bay Road Valley section of the road. There were tremendous washouts on that road and staff did have a temporary fix and very quickly had the road in shape. I'm just wondering - will there be work done to that Bay Road valley section, along with the work being done at Meat Cove?

 

 

563

 

HON. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Thank you. I know there's an answer forthcoming, I discussed it and I want to make a couple of comments about your opening comments, member.

 

I thank the member for the question and I also must point out that in the midst of the situation in Meat Cove I was actually on vacation with my granddaughter and her mother and dad in my cottage in P.E.I. At that time I was made aware of the situation here - actually not here, of course, but in Cape Breton, and staff was handling things. The first question I asked, of course, was if I have to come home, I certainly would. The key thing, of course, is you always guard your cottage number with absolute identity. The staff is aware of it.

 

When I called the member for Victoria-The Lakes, I gave him my cottage number. Now is that trust or is that trust? Throughout that period I know that we had open lines of communication and it was very important - yourself, along with the member for Inverness, we continued to work together. The comments from both staff are much appreciated.

 

You, of course, know and I've said it many times publicly in the other place, that as a Cabinet Minister you are as good as the people you surround yourself with and, knock on wood, it's coming up to two years, most days I pass for at least looking half good and I have to admit that it is the staff who do those things for me. Anyway, I do thank you for your co-operation throughout the difficulties.

 

This summer we are going to finalize that work. There are two structures in particular that we are going to put in a permanent way. Please reassure the people in that part of your constituency that they have not been forgotten. We understand the challenges they face and we're going to get that situation back to the way it was prior to the "disaster".

 

MR. BAIN: Thank you for that, minister and indeed, you did contact me while you were on vacation during that storm and offered your availability any time that I needed it and I want to thank you again for that.

 

While the damage was done in the Meat Cove area and also during the December storm, there was a lot of damage done to private driveways, roadways leading into properties. Part of them would be on TIR property, of course, and others would be private lands. Has the department been working with EMO together to address some of those concerns?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you for the question. I just wanted to clarify because I knew part of the answer to the first part, member - the relationship with EMO. Most of that took place in light of the event that actually happened but subsequent to that, we haven't been in much contact with them but we can talk further, whether you consider that a necessity or not.

 

Our priority at this stage has been, of course, the public highways and making sure that people have access to and from the places throughout the community but if there are particular concerns that you want to bring to our attention - of private driveways and culvert issues and so on - we certainly will work with you and address the matters on a one-by-one matter because I know how important issues of that sort are to people. There's a difference, of course, between a laneway that meanders off the main - if I can use the term, I know the laneway I have meanders off the main road - as opposed to a culvert being replaced in a ditch. You'll continue to bring those concerns to our attention and we'll address them on a one-off, each time we have an opportunity.

 

MR. BAIN: Thank you for that, minister. The December storm - I must say that Steve MacDonald, the area manager in Victoria County, has been excellent to work with, as have the operations supervisors in the area; there are three in Victoria County. I also work with Roy MacDonald in Cape Breton County and his OS in the Bras d'Or area, Sheldon Fiander. All seven of those people are certainly great to work with.

 

Steve has traveled roads with me; we're looking at things that were done. I know in the December storm the estimates hadn't been completed. Is there a timeline or have those estimates for the December storm been completed?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you. I do have the numbers here. Staff is used to giving me things that they have to deliver to me orally, otherwise I can't see it with my good eyesight. There is a number but if you want more specifics, the $3.18 million has been assigned for that particular number of projects but if you want a better breakdown, Ms. Fraser - I apologize for not introducing Jane Fraser on my left and Mr. Fitzner on my right - if you want more specifics, but that's the big number, $3.18 million.

 

MR. BAIN: Probably at some point I might put in a request, if we could get a more thorough breakdown of that money and again, thank you for that.

 

Still in the north area, the road that goes through Neil's Harbour, New Haven, Smelt Brook, and White Point is in terrible condition and I think the department is aware of it. We're fortunate that the federal government within the park boundaries has done a lot of work. I guess the biggest concern for both tourism operators and residents is that road that goes around the loop, especially tourism. If we want to appreciate the beauty of the Northern Highlands, you have to get off the beaten track, can we say again, and go outside the park boundaries and do the coastal route through those areas.

 

I guess my question is, after wrangling on about that - is there any plans for the repaving of the road through Smelt Brook?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I completely agree, of course - any time we have a highly-promoted area, such as the Cabot Trail and, of course, the famous park in itself, it's wonderful to have tourist destinations promoted in such a manner. But, of course, tourists being tourist and knowing that on certain occasions, whether they are from other parts of the Maritimes or other parts of North America, they do like to get off "the beaten track".

 

We're certainly aware of the condition of the road. It is something that is being considered. There's nothing on the books for this year but I'm aware of the fact, and I agree with you to the extent that people, of course, want the opportunity to see especially the coastal roads. It's one of those things, and I know there's members on all sides of the committee, who have heard me say before that coastal roads continue to be a challenge because that's the road that the tourists or somebody want to see the best view of the ocean or the best view of Nova Scotia, they want to get as close as possible to the coast.

 

Not to get into a long-winded tangent here but I've asked the staff in the past to do an inventory of coastal roads, coastal roads that could be at times threatened, Heaven forbid, knock on wood, for anything that we've had recently with the storm surges and the Meat Cove example. We did an inventory of these coastal roads because of the difficulties that we face when it comes to sudden storms and the rough winters we have.

 

I know that members of my caucus have brought concerns forward, in terms of the location of certain roads that are at risk. The Town of Lockeport is a recent example, Queensland in Chester-St. Margaret's and I'm sure that you have some in your constituency, too, and I'm pretty sure Steve MacDonald, in particular, who has been thorough enough to bring those roads to our attention; I'm sure that's why we are aware. I am aware, through Mr. Fitzner, about that particular road. We're aware of it, it's being considered but it's not going to be dealt with this particular paving season.

 

MR. BAIN: I bring up that section of road because it's been one that has been discussed for quite a while now. When you mentioned about washouts, it also occurred on that section of road as well, so maybe it might be included. I might find out that it might be part of your $3.18 million; some of the work as a result of that storm.

 

A number of years ago, a piece of the road washed out and the road was moved in closer to the mountain side. When I traveled the road this past Sunday, it's starting to move in even more towards that and I know it would be quite a challenge for the department to even stabilize something like that because it just goes down straight, there's a tremendous drop there.

 

It's just something that I appreciate that the department is keeping a close eye on it and I request that it does be considered soon for some construction work. I'm sure I'll be bugging you many more times on that one as well.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: If I may interject - I don't want to take time for you. You are the perfect example, member, of when we communicated in the past, either by phone or by correspondence - and I do prefer phone, incidentally, I don't prefer e-mail at all but that's another topic - and you have brought things in a very dutiful fashion to me and we continue to have those lines of communication, whatever the topic. I've said this to members on all sides of the House - that's how I prefer to do business.

 

If I can get you to answer - and you are a perfect example of that, member - there's no use on issues of this importance when it comes to road safety, to get up in the Legislature and grandstand, although at one time when I sat in Opposition - not on the transportation issues - but I occasionally could have been accused of doing some grandstanding. But when it comes to issues of this importance of road safety for people in our communities, you want answers. The way that I am pleased to deliver them is when you call, I try to get back to you or when you bring things to my attention in a written form, whether it's a handwritten note or, of course, properly on letterhead, continue to do that and we'll do just fine - the handwritten note, though, not on a napkin.

 

MR. BAIN: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to be sharing my time with the member for Hants West but I'm going to take the opportunity to try and get a few more questions in.

 

Wagmatcook First Nation has three provincial roads - well actually it has more than three provincial roads but it has three provincial roads that at this time require resurfacing. I know there has been correspondence sent to you by me - as the MLA for the area - and also from Norman Bernard, the Chief of Wagmatcook First Nation. In a response that the band council received, the suggestion was made that they could possibly contact the municipality for a cost-sharing agreement.

 

Victoria County, I guess, is sort of unique in that they have very few municipal roads and any municipal roads that they would have are mostly within the Village of Baddeck. So as far as a cost-sharing agreement with the municipality, I don't think that would be something that the municipality would be willing to look at. Having said all that, I guess I think these three roads are approximately four kilometres in total but they are provincial roads. I'm just wondering if the minister could look, at some point - the Trans Canada goes right through the middle of the reserve and they have been requesting that those roads be looked at and possibly have those resurfaced. I don't know if you can address that.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Chief Bernard's correspondence was something that certainly got my attention. I guess some of that is based upon - the response would be based upon my experience, in terms of dealing with HRM, as municipal roads. I appreciate your candour in terms of Victoria County and when it comes to their priorities with municipal dollars, of course, that they would use in Baddeck specifically.

 

We see these four kilometres of roads as something that we can now put under the local road program. I think it would be our preference that these roads be chip sealed. That would be something, of course, that Chief Bernard would have to be approached on and I would assume that in many of these situations - maybe I shouldn't assume it, but perhaps together we can make the case for the chip seal and double chip sealing process as a good answer to those questions.

I don't know how you feel about that but there's a possibility that we can move in that direction.

 

MR. BAIN: I would be willing to approach the subject with Chief Bernard but there would have to be some initial work done to certain sections of the road. I know that again, I mention Steve MacDonald because he's already met with the band council and with Chief Bernard. I haven't spoken to Steve to find out how their conversation went or anything, so maybe as a follow-up, I will speak to the Chief and see where we might be able to go with the whole program, so I thank you for that.

 

The member here is going to be hitting me pretty soon. I believe - it's my understanding that the Upper Leitches Creek Road is going to be upgraded and I don't know if the tenders have been called for that as yet.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: It is planned for this summer; the tenders have not been called. When it does cross my desk, I'll make a point of giving you a call to inform you.

 

I again had the opportunity to - when we are in situations where we are working with local councillors, it's important that the MLA has an open line of communication with the councillor as much as possible, so that his or her priorities and one and the same. We had an opportunity in the last session where Councillor Mae Rowe and you and I went over a very important section of road that I know is of consequence to you and the councillor. I compliment you both for how it was handled.

 

MR. BAIN: As a follow-up, I guess, to that meeting with Councillor Rowe and you - another contentious issue was the Frenchvale road. As you are aware, there is a gravel pit in the area and material is being hauled out to the tar ponds site. There were a lot of problems as a result of the hauling that was taking place. The community was quite upset and area manager Roy MacDonald for Cape Breton County moved in and addressed the situation as best he could at the time and I think it worked out well.

 

I guess the challenge that's out there is that - I believe if it's not this coming Monday it's the Monday after the roads will open again and therefore, the hauling will begin again and the problems might start all over again.

 

Roy and I did meet with the community and he was going to follow-up with meetings with the contractor and everything else but the community has a great deal of problems, with the trucks that are traveling that road. Between that pit and the quarries - that's a better name to use, I guess, than pit - and Highway 125, there's a dangerous spot there called Rankin's Turn.

 

It's something that needs to be addressed and I would ask that your department take Rankin's Turn and, indeed, the whole Frenchvale Road - it is about 18 kilometres. I know it can't be done in one year. I'm just asking if the department could possibly look at a three or four-year plan or something that could be used to address the problem that exists on that road. I don't think the community expects everything to be done in one year but if there is work being done, I think they'd be satisfied that they know something is going to happen.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I'd like to first of all tell you that when I get a hand-drawn map as accurately portrayed the problem that I was shown on that particular evening, that map eventually made its way to Mr. Fitzer's desk. I can assure you of something, member, that engineers love nothing more than their proverbial ring, they love drawing maps. Your map was very well received and Rankin's Turn, in particular, was the obvious crux of the issue.

 

I do appreciate the offer of a number of multiple years as a possible solution. That's the direction we're going to be going. Of course we will have to get back to you with the specifics but I do appreciate your flexibility. Here's another example of how somebody on the ground - Roy MacDonald in this case - met with the community, he is proactive, he was the MLA, because the key issue in the community, of course, is danger, particularly with children walking on the sides of the roads and whatever else and those big trucks moving through there.

 

We're very well aware of the problem, due to the good work of the council and yourself and we certainly aren't going to forget about the problem.

 

MR. BAIN: Thank you for that, Minister. I think if the community can get some assurance that there will be work done on the road and if it is over a three or four year span, but as long as they have the assurance that it will continue, I think they'll be quite satisfied.

 

Just my last question before I turn it over to my colleague is concerning monies that are budgeted for ongoing road maintenance, I bring this up because of our experiences with the storms last Fall, the December storm and everything else. I believe - again, I'm no engineer or anything else but I believe some of those problems that happened could have been avoided, had some ditching been done, some culverts cleaned.

 

I know that each area is working on a limited maintenance budget and again, in Victoria County we have three OSs that Steve has to divide his monies as best he can for maintenance on the roads. Is there any consideration being given to increasing or, better still, has the maintenance budget increased for the department, that these jobs can get done, to identify the problem and get it fixed before there is a problem, an even more expensive problem?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to the member, I certainly understand from my experience the importance of doing some of the types of jobs that you've just mentioned. Those are the types of projects locally that are well-received when it comes to making sure the ditches are clear, making sure that culverts are in proper sort of order. Those are all important things. Those aren't the sort of things that the public sees as a big project but then when the difficulty of some of the challenges you've been facing in your community or in other areas of the province, that's when it comes back to bite us.

In some situations perhaps we could have been more proactive but I want you to know that we're going to continue to make those roads, with the limited dollars that we have available, we're going to continue. I understand, too, that whether Steve MacDonald has certain dollars that he has to share with two or three areas, he will do that in the usual fair way that he has done in the past.

 

I share your concern, we are very well aware of the fact that we cannot forget the local and secondary roads because they are, after all, the ones that do attract the people who want to see what rural Nova Scotia is really about. It's a safe way for our residents to get to the bigger - probably if we say it this way - better maintained roads, that of course, receive the asphalt.

 

I want the member to know we haven't forgotten about it, we're aware of some of the challenges we're going to face, we're going to continue to try and face the challenge for you.

 

MR. BAIN: And just following up on maintenance, Mr. Chairman, one of the biggest challenges that exists in Victoria County and indeed, in Inverness, is the brush cutting that takes place. It's only one machine that is shared between the two counties. I know that at times the department does contract some of the work out but it seems that when summer comes, I am constantly getting calls because people can't see when they're coming out of an intersection. Roadways are - all of the branches are coming out on the roads. Because of the fact that this machine is shared, they don't get done. It could be two years in some cases, before roads get done.

 

I'm just wondering, is there money available that the machine could be used more in Victoria County? I guess this is - it seems to be in the Inverness area more than it is in Victoria County. I'm not trying to take it away from Inverness because the honourable member for Inverness would probably be waiting for me at the door as I am walking out.

 

I know it's a problem province-wide but it certainly is a concern in my area and across the whole constituency. It is not specific to north of Smoky, it's not every road, every secondary road that we have in the whole constituency. I'm just wondering, is there any way that the process can be speeded up, I guess, to get some of these areas addressed?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: The process is the key thing, in terms of the availability of that particular bushwhackers or whatever you call it in your community. I should point out, and again I know the member next to you wants to get some questions in - when that particular machine ends up in my community, I have people complain about the job it actually does because it makes such a mess, but then I say to them listen, it is there and we are whacking them down as best we can.

 

I guess the key thing would be for you to continue to bring particular intersections to our attention because they are the ones that if people have to come out into an intersection basically to see beyond the stop sign, because of the difficulty with some of these bushes, we've going to continue to address it.

 

Of course if there's limited availability of the machine, I don't want to get into tracking down whether the machine spends more time in Inverness or Victoria County because one way or another, it's a no-win, right? I appreciate your concern.

 

MR. BAIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thank you, minister. I'm going to turn my time over now to the honourable member for Hants West. Again, thank you very much, I appreciate it.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Almost equal sharing of 29 minutes of your time has gone by and there's 31 minutes remaining for the member for Hants West.

 

The honourable member for Hants West.

 

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I have a few questions. Thank you as well, minister, for the opportunity. I will get right to it.

 

Highway No. 101, what's the plan? I'm hearing there's no plan and I know that there's a five-year plan but I'm talking in the next couple of years, are we going to be able to continue on with work, minister, by way of tenders?

 

I realize there are things, and I've talked to you about this, there are structures and so on that need to be built well in advance of the real road bed and stuff. People are anxious to see what's going to happen. What I hear back is that they are hearing there is nothing happening.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Well as we all are well aware of, Highway 101 has always been a concern for whoever the government of the day is. I do know that there have been some environmental concerns, particularly in the section that you are well aware of, because I would geographically probably be challenged but it's probably right in the middle of your constituency.

 

That, in itself, is a concern, I see it when I travel that particular highway. We have a plan. Of course the plan at times suffers because of the lack of dollars but I mean we have to measure off whether we're going to continue to have climbing lanes, passing lanes in some areas of the No. 101.

 

We had an opportunity during estimates to have a very frank discussion with the member for Kings West who brought up some of his concerns about the No. 101. The No. 101 will not be forgotten, there are areas of the No. 101 that are going to have to continue to be addressed because of the priority upon the safety of the motoring public. I thank the people in the community and I thank the local towns and municipal politicians for their patience. I ask them to continue to work with us and we're going to do everything possible to make sure that the No. 101 is a safe highway down through the Valley.

 

MR. PORTER: Thank you for that, minister, and I realize there's been an environmental issue there through the causeway area and to be honest, it seems like that has been going on forever. I've been here nearly five years and you hear all kinds of things - well, there's a federal one, there's a provincial one, that they're completed, we're ready to do some work. Nobody really seems to ever know what the true facts are here.

 

Outside of that there are things like the bridges, overpasses, whatever you'd like to call them, that certainly need to be built well in advance of the road. One of the other issues is right in the Town of Windsor at Exit 6, which is Nesbitt Street, it's where the tourist bureau is there, as you approach the causeway, minister there's homes there. In the early days when the highway went through, in the early 1970s, late 1960s, there were homes that of course were acquired and taken and purchased by the department so that they could go through.

 

That same issue exists now so there are a couple of folks there who are concerned and have called me and we've tried to get some answers but basically now they're sort of the opinion that they want to do some work to their home. They don't know what to do, they are caught there because they keep waiting to hear word and we've never really been able to nail down that we're going to be there in two years or 10 years.

 

It makes it difficult for those folks and I can appreciate that and I know I'm sure you can as well. All I would say to that is the sooner we have some idea where we're going, I know that not only myself but those people who live in the area would be very appreciative of some notice as to how that may all transpire by way of time frame. I'll leave that comment on that.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I appreciate that, thank you.

 

MR. PORTER: One of the other big things and I know I've mentioned it here as well is that RIM money. I think that is some of the most important dollars that government ever invested in any of our areas because it gets a lot of stuff done.

 

I'm hearing there are cuts, I heard figures to the tune of $160,000 from my RIM budget. I'm not sure whether those are accurate or not but I'd like you to speak to it, if you will, the decrease in the RIM funding and what that might mean.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, as all members of this committee know, RIM money - Rural Impact Mitigation it actually stands for, not Road Improvement Money. But anyway, never mind, that's me and my acronym problem.

 

We will be spending $15 million this year in RIM money. I know that's a $5 million decrease that's across the province. I've given the assurance to members who have asked the question before and to members of my caucus, if they'd like to know more specifically about their own constituency and allocation of those dollars, we can make those dollars available to you through Ms. Fraser's expertise.

 

I do well know from my own experience as an MLA who has that mix of a very urban Timberlea area and then a very rural area along the coast, that RIM money is of absolute importance in the more rural parts of the riding because as I've said and the member for Musquodoboit is the one who brings it to my attention because of the need to do road work in some parts of his constituency and he says to me on many occasions, Nova Scotians have to have faith in the fact that they're being listened to, that their particular road is not going to be neglected year after year. As a sign of good faith, dollars used locally on secondary roads, through the RIM projects, gives hope to some of those people who are going to say, they have not forgotten about me in Halifax.

 

I know I quote as the minister, often on occasions the member for Musquodoboit with that. So continue to bring those concerns to our attention and we'll do as much as possible with the reduced amount of RIM dollars that we have across the province but also in Hants West.

 

MR. PORTER: Thank you, minister. I can't stress enough - I know you know the importance of it - it does go a long ways, it gets a lot of little things done. People complain when they pick up their phone and call us - all of us I'm sure it's the same in rural Nova Scotia - about our road and no one has been here for years.

 

There are many bad roads around, it's not just in West Hants, I realize that, I travel a lot. There would be no shortage of being able to spend money on roads anywhere. I can't stress enough the importance of that and I don't know - I can't even think right off the top of my head to offer any idea of where else you could cut money other than the RIM money. I know it's difficult and I know what you're trying to do with that and make some adjustments.

 

Is there any new equipment coming to Hants County, specifically the West Hants area, by way of transportation equipment? You spoke a few minutes ago about the tractors out cutting bushes and things like that. Last year I had a few calls about how we haven't been out doing that. When I called my OS, we've only got one and it's over in East Hants.

Well that's not really going over too well, as I'm sure you can appreciate as the MLA for your area. People don't think much of that, they want to know I don't care about East Hants. They mean that in a nice way, I'm sure, but they also want work done in their area.

 

We do have seasons and the same thing happens in the wintertime, there's always a complaint that we don't have enough snow plows. I know dollars are tight but is there any new equipment, whether it be trucks, graders, machinery of any type, coming into West Hants?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: One of the topics that I often ask about is the actual fleet update, in terms of pieces of gear, of what other type of job and how long they've been used. I do know there are - and they are mainly men although there are women who work in some of our bases - who will say to you that when the mechanics continue to keep some of this gear on the road, and I'm not just talking snow equipment, of course that's the one that really takes the beating, but we are currently reviewing the equipment needs. The final decisions haven't been made where it is going to be assigned by we manage it each and every year and we continue, as we have to do. Of course locally we're going to make sure that we have new pieces of equipment in certain parts of the province, whether they end up in West or East Hants or Inverness or Victoria County, are always up for debate but we haven't made the final decisions.

 

The one that I would use as an example, and I don't want to take your time, is I was in a situation in another base in another part of the province when they were working on a grader and the complicated way to make that piece of equipment actually all fit together and all work. I remember that day so well because I had the opportunity, from the man who was operating it, to ask me if I wanted to take it out for a test drive because they had basically most of the underpinnings of the grader off of it, which I thought well that would at least make it a heck of a lot safer for me to be able to drive it around the parking lot. I didn't take him up on his offer. There is that continual need to upgrade the fleet, balanced off by trying to keep as much of the equipment as possible on the road.

 

We haven't made any final decisions but it's part of the budget process each year and there will be some new gear in various parts of the province and you certainly made your case for West Hants.

 

MR. PORTER: Thank you, minister, for your answers. We have this new chip-sealing paving initiative that you've undertaken. I'm curious as to how that's going to roll out. I guess the real question is, given that I'm speaking of West Hants, are we going to see chip-sealing and/or paving from your new unit this summer in Hants West?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again it's one of those issues that I don't want to go on too long about but the priority this year of course is chip sealing. The mobile asphalt plant will be up and operating in the next paving season and, of course, determining those priorities based on the tenders that we'll be receiving this year, as to what we're going to be doing with the paving.

 

The chip sealing priorities are going to be operated out of Miller Lake and at this time we look like we'll going down along through the Valley and into Kings County and of course we'll be in part of West Hants. I think it's really important that all members, and I know there are members here around the table who've made their request quite specific in saying, these are some of the candidates that we feel we can use for chip-sealing roads and these are the requests that we have each year when it comes to improving surfaces by using asphalt. When that final schedule is going to be produced there will be a forthcoming announcement that I'll be making in terms of the five-year plan and where we are this particular paving season.

 

I'm sure you've seen some tenders that have been out and moved into communities. We're going to look at the chip-sealing project this year moving down through the Valley, specifically through to Kings, and of course West Hants will be part of the process.

 

MR. PORTER: Thank you for that, minister. That's great and we'll certainly welcome them. We're fairly close to Miller Lake, we're not that far away and we've got lots that can be done.

 

You talk about the - I do know some members do, probably meet with you whatever about certain roads, I do on occasion. When it comes to the selection of the work, I have to be honest with you, in my opinion I've got three very good folks out there in Barry MacInnis, Hal Lavers and Larry Lowthers especially, who has been very good in the last number of years for me. We talk often, we met again last week. That's the level that I'm dealing with most of the time. We talked about what's the plan for the coming year and again, as we come into winter, what's the plan. We've got vehicles on the road, are we okay that way, what can I do to support them?

 

I leave that to them, I'm not an engineer, I'm not a specialist. I drive over the bumpy roads and I take the calls, I know where they're at. I don't spend a lot of your time one-on-one asking or meeting, I don't think I need to do that based on my relationship with my crews out there which again I'll stress is very good. That works well for us in West Hants. They know the roads as well as I do because when I get the calls there's e-mails and calls going to them and generally they're very response to that. That's sort of our process there and it does work well.

 

I want to move on to the rack. You and I spoke recently . . .

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Before you do that, member, if you could, I'd just like to again say you are another example that I've used in the past - not behind your back but you haven't been present while I pointed your example - in terms of the fact that the people on the ground, the OSs there who know the roads and know the issues and the MLA are literally singing from the same song sheet when they come in and say, you're going to hear from - and I'll use your first name, I hope you don't mind - you're going to hear from Chuck Porter and we've met and they're going to say, here are what we consider the priorities and Chuck is in agreement with them.

 

That's the sort of relationship that I like to hear about, as a minister. You've been doing your homework and the people on the ground who report through to us, to me eventually, say that we met with the MLA and he or she says this, that or whatever and they are in agreement. That says you are doing your homework and they are literally very supportive of what you want to do, too.

 

Anyway, I know you want to talk about the rack so let's get at it.

 

MR. PORTER: Thank you and I appreciate that. Yes, I believe that's the way to get it done. I worked construction, I worked for Dexter years ago and do know a little something about road work. That's an asset as far as I'm concerned, being the MLA there and understanding the process and how it works.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: So what did you do for Dexter's now?

 

MR. PORTER: I did almost anything - drove a truck, the machine, you name it and I did it. It was fun for three years and then I got smart and left there. To that, it was a great experience and it does help. It's strange how these things are all very helpful as you move along in the life that we lead as politicians and representing our people, it's a great asset to have had. I do want to stress that relationship does matter. It is how we get things done and we don't have to fight about it, we do what is reasonable and we said reasonable people generally do reasonable things and I'll carry on with that.

 

Onto the rack, I know you and I had spoken briefly this week about it. They are working on the No. 101 right now, pulling up what was left to be paved. It was part of the project that would have started last year, finished last year the new sides. They're pulling up the old on the other side eastbound and they're going to repave that on Highway No. 101 but that stuff is all going up to - my understanding is that it is being hauled up to the Panuke road quarry but my greater understanding is that that belongs to Dexter and they are taking that as part of the tender or the contract, whichever you wish to call it, that was priced in and that does not belong to the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal. Just quickly, is that correct, Minister?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you and further to the discussion which we've had about the rack and the availability of it, there was a two-year agreement that the company that was peeling up the old stuff, if we can us it that way because they're going to recycle and use it, that two-year agreement will allow them to stockpile some of this material.

 

When that agreement is up we are going to insist that based upon our experience thus far, that when they take the rack off a particular section of road that they should use it again as soon as possible. In your situation when you were talking about - it's the quarry up on the Panuke Road you said?

 

MR. PORTER: Yes, that's right.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: So this two-year agreement will soon be over and we'll be looking at a different set of circumstances when it comes to who gets to use the rack because it really is a cost-saving factor when they use the recycled stuff to lay down more asphalt.

 

MR. PORTER: Yes, it is, and I guess when I'm thinking about this it's great and I know - I like to think, I guess, that there's probably some cut in the overall tender price if there's a better price, by way of allowing them to take the rack. But, at the same time, who is using the rack? Well, the Department of Transportation last year in my area we used a lot of rack, which is great stuff. People like that on their roads. The roads that were once - I don't know what you call it, I'm going to call it paved but they weren't truly paved - there was a mix of something similar to rack years ago put down. We've gone in and covered those roads and people are thrilled to have that because it's just like concrete when it gets rolled down good and packs good. It seems to be very easy to maintain, you know you grade it up once in a while and it services the road well because it is strong and it packs nice.

 

So here we are in the situation, we're stacking a whole bunch of racks at Panuke quarry that we don't own, i.e. Transportation, do we need to buy it back yet again, to do the road work that I'd like to get done this year, for example? I see it as great value, I see it as huge savings as opposed to paving, which is not a high likelihood to begin with. In putting this down it would seem to me that you almost have to buy it back or it is going to cost you more.

 

Has anybody ever done that, minister, like the savings versus the expenditure to get the work done with the rack?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Well the answer, I was aware of it, the specifics I wasn't. My concern comes back that we are paying for something when really if we need it for the public that we should be having access to it but we have this agreement at this stage and there is no doubt it is a cost-saving factor because of the liquid that is included in the rack. After all that's the black gold which makes asphalt work for all of us.

 

It's going to continue to be part of the negotiations when it comes to road builders and contracts in the future. In spite of some recent press coverage and reaction from the media on this issue, the road builders and the department have had a good, solid working relationship when it comes to the toing and froing with tenders. The key thing, of course, is that we wanted to make sure the tenders would be fair and at the right cost. When they get to use this rack that should be figured into the fact that they are using recycled material, tenders should be appreciably lower.

 

I do appreciate your comments in terms of how it is being used in certain parts of the community that you represent, the same as in mine, and it's very well received. It's going to be part of the negotiations as we go forward and I'm sure that there will be an exchange of ideas when it comes to the particular companies that are bidding on the contracts but with the current two-year agreement in place, when it expires it will be a different set of circumstances for us to deal with.

 

MR. PORTER: Thank you, minister. I guess that's knowing the need and I understand what you're saying about the two-year agreement, I appreciate that very much, then if that's the case and that's the only rack - I'm not sure what our stockpile at DOT is left but let's just say that there's a fair bit coming off the No. 101 right now that will be used somewhere this year, I'm going to assume. Does that mean that the extra would get that work doing the rack going down, as opposed to the local, my local crew that did it last year?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: A great question - not necessarily in this situation, the answer is no. There's a specific example of how the toing and froing negotiations go back and forth. This is an example, of course, of how you save dollars for the public in bringing down the tendered contracts. If you have that open relationship with the company that is a successful bidder - we're not talking about the limited dollars we're getting the most out of the limited dollars.

 

MR. PORTER: Thank you and I certainly agree with the comment around getting the most out of the dollars that we have because the more we get out of them the farther they go, obviously, for all of us and that's fine.

 

We have a policy, I think, that's in place in Transportation that says you can't put rack on gravel roads. I'm looking for clarification, is that right, you can't put the rack on a gravel road today?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: You're going in the same direction I've asked before and that's we have a black gravel road which is a mixture but putting the rack directly on without doing the mixture of the so-called "black gravel" which is what you are talking about in your community. That's acceptable but putting the rack on directly is not the process we use. I think you knew that answer anyway, didn't you?

 

MR. PORTER: Yes, I think that's great, actually. I like the way we've done whatever we're doing to go from rack to black gravel, that suits me just fine because at the end of the day it's one and the same, as far as I'm concerned. I think most people who are doing that and if that's the way that we're - I don't want to say getting around it but I'll say getting around it to make it work, that's fine by me because there are gravel roads that are in desperate need of work in all our areas, as I'm sure you know and are certainly hearing about.

 

That is a plan that I've talked about with the local folks who I've given their names earlier here with my guys and said, do you know what, I think that's a great plan for that road, can we do it out there. You can't rack it but we don't call it rack, we call it black gravel. I don't care what you call it, let's get it down and get it packed in because it does work well.

 

I just was wondering - I know about that and that's fine so I guess just as a follow-up to that, Minister, the black gravel goes down and, like I said, it packs pretty good, et cetera. Are those the kinds of things that we're looking at chip-sealing or are we just going to be chip-sealing over currently paved roads that are, we'll call them a little rough, with a little work and make them look nice?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Well, I can wax poetically about chip-sealing and what candidates are there. The short answer is both, as you probably would have appreciated. The key thing, of course, is to make sure that you identify the right type - and I know we're coming to the end of your time, I'll be careful not to be too long - that we get the right type of road identified, a road that is going to stand up to the chip sealing because whether pulp trucks are on it as opposed to whether the weekly garbage truck is or a school bus that's on a school route, those are two very different things.

 

Chip sealing is well received and whether it's a step up from black gravel is another issue in itself but people do appreciate that it's easier to maintain, more importantly, it cuts down on dust in the summertime and from the experience that I've had with it in my own constituency, the response from people is saying look, we'll take anything because what we'll get is better than what we've been putting up with.

 

There are specific examples in my constituency that I've used in the past when I sat in opposition and lobbied for a road called Joshua Slocum. I recall how people were so appreciative of the fact that this dead end road that is mainly used for ATVs - not for driving on the road but to get their ATVs back into the park - was so well received.

 

I thank you for your endorsement of the program because it's something that we're going to make sure is a top priority.

 

MR. PORTER: Thank you and I know I've got only a couple of minutes left but I want to get one thing in here. We met with the warden of the Municipality of West Hants and a representative, I think, perhaps from Dexter last Fall with regard to a potential for an exit ramp along the Stillwater area where there is a huge development planned out there, minister, which is now getting more publicity as time goes on.

 

Some consideration was given and steps planning - it doesn't all have to be done at once but was there any commitment to and at that time there was an importance stressed about how an exit off Highway No. 101 into this particular development, which is quite large, over the next number of years, to the tunes of many millions of dollars, has any other thought or time been given to that request by way of an exit out there?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I do appreciate the time that I had with Warden Dauphinee as we were going through this process. It's a project that - if members of the committee are not aware, it's a golfing community but it's much more than a golfing community . . .

 

MR. PORTER: Residential development, golfing, rinks, et cetera, very large plan.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: . . . and very well received in the community. We look forward to continuing to work with the developer, it hasn't been forgotten. In fact I use that example sometimes when there is a controversial proposal that is in an adjoining constituency of mine that used to be part of my constituency, as opposed that certain people might be to the St. Margarets Bay connector road, I said I know there's a community that is just dying to have another exit, that is going to get down into a connector road in their community and I bring up the Windsor example which just sometimes causes people to sort of look askance and say, oh my god, don't take it anywhere else but here.

 

We haven't forgotten about the development and we continue to work with the municipality and the developer.

 

MR. PORTER: I appreciate that answer.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Member, time for one more question.

 

MR. PORTER: It will be maybe a comment as much as a question, minister. I know there has been great discussion over the municipalities, the MOU, notice has been given with regard to what will transpire there and so to me that sort of opens the door, in a way, for what I hope will be a very good discussion about a whole lot of things and how the provincial government works with the municipal levels.

 

I wonder, because the mayors will say it has not been fair and I sat on council before coming here a few years back. The towns are responsible for all of their own roads, versus the municipalities that are looked after, of course, by you and the province. Has any consideration or could some consideration, discussion, call it what you will, be given to how that relationship works? We all know small towns and the desperation that they are in now financially. Roads are a big issue for them and if you drive through any small town, most of them are pretty bad, whether they be potholes, there are roads that haven't been touched in years and years and I'm sure that is consistent across the province.

 

I just wonder, will there be any of that kind of discussion or has there been any going forward in an effort to try to help out the municipal units, specifically towns?

 

MR. ESTBROOKS: I've always had a good working relationship with Billy Joe, if I may call him that - Mayor MacLean. We've sat down and once we get the sports out of the way, look at the fact that roads are a key component of what is the number one responsibility to people in the towns and villages. There are towns all across this province that are going to be in very serious financial situations. Some of them really shock me with their location. I'm thinking of Mahone Bay, for example, and I see the member here, of course. We're all talking about the Cansos, we're talking about some small towns and roads.

 

It's on open lines of communication, I have a good working relationship with the current President of the UNSM and I look forward to continue with that.

 

MR. PORTER: Thank you, Minister, very much for the opportunity to speak to you.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: That concludes the time for the Progressive Conservative caucus.

 

The honourable member for Colchester North.

 

HON. KAREN CASEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to be able to have a few minutes of time with the minister to, first of all, congratulate him on the success of his Bruins last night and to acknowledge that it was a nail-biter and I am sure you were awake long after the last goal was scored.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Does that show on my face today?

 

MS. CASEY: I will reserve comment on that. First of all, Mr. Chairman, and to the minister, I guess perhaps more general questions, I will be able to focus on my own particular area as we bore down. One of the things I am questioning, and I am asking this because I don't know the answer, that is the issue with road maintenance in subdivisions around this province. I happen to represent an area that has many subdivisions and happen to live in one of those. In many cases in those subdivisions roads were paved by the developer in an effort to sell lots. In other cases the owners paid frontage and worked with the municipality to have those roads paved. I think in all of those cases the maintenance, snow plowing in particular, falls to the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal.

 

I guess what I'm needing to hear from you is if one responsibility is with the province, i.e. snow plowing, who is responsible for maintenance and perhaps resurfacing of those areas when they do get in disrepair?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you for the question. I do know that it is one of those ongoing concerns, particularly when it comes to subdivisions. Your subdivision and your community - not that I - well yes, I do know where you live, not that I've ever been invited to visit, however, but let's not go down that road today.

 

MS. CASEY: The door is always open, minister.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: The responsibility when it comes to maintenance, of course, with snow plowing is ourselves. That initial problem of the road being laid down by the developer, and I've been on some of those types of roads in the past where you see the difficulty that yes, they might be paved but what's under that road? What is the actual construction that was done and whether it was done properly or not. In some situations what was done 20 or 25 years ago, as opposed to what the standards are now.

 

It differs from one municipality to another in a lot of situations but I mean the paving responsibilities ultimately are ours. We want to understand - I don't know if you heard the question earlier from the previous member - the municipalities of course are concerned about the fact that they don't have the dollars to be able to handle these paving projects.

 

We have to balance that off, however, or I must say to you that I have to balance that off in terms of the fact that we have certain dollars that are set aside for certain projects when it comes to road paving. I do know that a subdivision street has a heck of a lot less traffic on it than a major secondary road that goes from Nutby Mountain back into Truro. All those things have to be balanced and I'm aware of the latest request that you put forward and how they are going to be handled. We're looking at the proposal and whether we can address that particular issue in your constituency.

 

I say to other members who are present, continue to bring those concerns forward, whether it is a subdivision street or a secondary road. It's a challenge but we're not going to shy away from the challenge.

 

MS. CASEY: One of the issues, of course, is exactly what you've identified, that sometimes there was a quick layer of something put down by the developer in order to entice people to buy lots and the surface underneath was probably poorly prepared, probably not a very solid surface so the asphalt that was put down doesn't last very long so they fall into disrepair.

 

The other comment that you've made and again I agree with you on this one, is the subdivision roads, well it is highly unlikely they would ever become priorities because of the flow of traffic, because there are so many other needs out there on our routes and connector roads and on our 100-Series highways, so the time when any dollars could ever be directed towards repaving or resurfacing in subdivisions is probably a long way in the future.

 

In the meantime, there are people in those subdivisions who - I am getting calls from them, they are having tires of rims and so on ruined because they hit one of these huge potholes. It seems that the maintenance that goes to those is kind of short-term, crisis kinds of intervention rather than any long-term plan for resurfacing.

 

I guess my question would be, with respect to long-term, and I know that you have presented your five-year plan, I was there and I complimented you on that plan, has there been any discussion at the department level about perhaps a long-range plan for trying to address some of the subdivision maintenance resurfacing issues that are all around the province?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I thank the member for the question. The short-term pain as opposed to the long-term gain, if we can use that analogy, is not appropriate when it comes to road maintenance. We've talked about it as a staff, we've looked at some of the possible solutions but we have to have a plan in place because unless those roads are looked at, they are eventually just going to go back to the unfortunate standard they were when they were put in there.

 

In a lot of cases, as you said, it is a selling factor for the lots at the time. Those are the roads that will be the costly ones because once you get into a major repair of them and you have to peel up that asphalt that is left, if there is anything left, you realize you don't have much to work with underneath.

 

Your suggestion is a good one and I know that Mr. Fitzner has taken a few notes here as you are speaking. We plan to have a plan, more than just a short-term patch and get through it for another season. We have that obligation to people because after all, they do pay their taxes and one of their most important priorities, and I know that always we say health care is at the top, followed by education - no reflection on our past careers - but the streets or roads where people live is also very crucial to them.

 

Hopefully we'll be able to come forward with a better long-term plan in the subsequent two months to see how we can address that issue of subdivision paving.

 

MS. CASEY: That answer allows me to swing into my next question which is chip seal. As you know and as your staff would know, I have had some great success with some chip seal treatment in some of the roads in Colchester North. I know there is criteria that has to be met in order for those roads to be considered and I would be the first to say that it was one of the best solutions that could ever have gone onto those existing roads because they were low-traffic, no truck and heavy vehicle traffic. They would have been way down on anybody's priority list for complete asphalt so that solution has been well received by the residents who travel on those roads and who live on those roads.

 

Is that a solution that might be considered in some of our subdivisions?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I appreciate you coming to this point because that's part of the alternatives that we're looking at. But then again, I can share with you, as an experienced member of the Legislature, my staff has compiled each of the requests that MLAs have submitted to us and how you've done yours in the past and how you break them out, in terms of your priorities for asphalt as opposed to chip-sealing.

 

It seems to me that that makes some logical sense to say to people who live on a subdivision street that has been neglected for a period of time because they are not going to get the asphalt, chip-sealing would be a much better way to go.

 

I think that's part of the process and part of the plan that we have because when we are in situations of this nature, there are certain Nova Scotians who would say - not necessarily in your constituency - based upon the example that I've used a number of times of the Joshua Slocum road in my constituency, where people who lived on that street when it was dust and mud and not even gravel, said we want asphalt or nothing. As a result of the community meeting and as a result of the fact that people are saying well, let's try this chip-sealing because it will be better than nothing and this is what we'd like to do.

 

I'm sure that when we get into those discussions with people in the communities, perhaps where you live yourself, that an endorsement - not just because you are the MLA - of the process, the chip-sealing, is a pretty good surface in a lot of cases. It's not going to be able to handle pulp trucks but it will handle school buses and it is easy to repair and so on. The terminology which I discourage everyone to not use, and I know that we've had this discussion before, chip-sealing is not poor man's pavement, that's just not the way to address the issue. It's a surface that is going to be well-received in the community because of the fact that it is going to help people with safety and a better stretch of road in front of their driveway. That is possibly the top of the list when it comes to how we are going to address subdivision paving, particularly the use of chip-sealing.

 

MS. CASEY: I've floated a few trial balloons in some of my areas about that possibility of change and I guess you get a mixed response from that but I think people are practical and I think if they don't see it as a poor man's pavement, if they do see it as a type of surface that is going to last and it is going to be better than what they are driving on. I think the best think do is that I can tell them where they can go to see a chip-sealed road and to drive on it themselves because that is when they will make the decision as to whether it is better than what they currently have.

 

I am trying to take advantage of what has been done there in the last two or three years, to say if you don't believe me, go drive on this and then you determine whether you believe it is a good surface. I'm pleased to hear that that is something the department is talking about at least.

 

Before I leave subdivisions, the other one is again this is something that we've talked about, a joint project between the municipality and the province with respect to paving and sidewalks because it is my understanding that sidewalks are the responsibility of the municipality and the asphalt pavement of the street is the province. So we've had some situations where the two have come together, there's been an agreement and they've done both projects at the same time, which makes good sense, rather than do your sidewalk and then in a couple of years time you come in and do paving and perhaps do some damage to the recent sidewalk work, or the other way around.

 

I know it has happened, I believe it is a wise thing to do. I know I have worked with both my municipality and the department on one project in particular. Although there was an agreement in principle, when it came down to who is going to do the design work, there was a big of a tug of war and as a result, it didn't get done.

 

I guess my question would be, if there is a request from the municipality to the province, or from the province to the municipality, to work together and cost-share a project where each one does their own area of responsibility, how favourably would that be received?

MR. ESTABROOKS: I know firsthand and your case, member is the one that often points to this tug of war over turf, if we could say this, when we're looking at what is best for those residents and we're talking about a design problem, how the left hand and the right hand not only should know what they are doing but they should be working closely with each other.

 

We're certainly aware of some of the possible experiences, we can learn from in the past of how it could have been done better and that we want to continue to work with them when it comes to projects of this type. When the gear is in there and the equipment is in there and the disruptions are taking place in a particular part of the community, let's do it all at once and let's not get into whether we have some of those engineers with their little rings on their fingers in a turf warfare about my design as opposed to your design, when it comes to a sidewalk as opposed to a road.

 

There has to be some more give and take there but that was, from what I understood before, in your case, an unfortunate set of circumstances that we should never see repeated again.

 

MS. CASEY: I am pleased to hear those comments and I will look forward to a proposal coming forward again. It is the taxpayers' dollars, regardless of whether they come from the municipality or from the province. The debate over whose design should be used and who should pay for it is pretty juvenile, in my opinion.

 

I want to move on to bridges. I know that we have issues with bridges in my particular area. Some of it is bridge replacement but some of it is resurfacing of the deck of the bridge. The bridge supervisor - I will use that language - goes out and assesses the bridge and says that it is structurally sound and that's great, I'm pleased to hear that but the surface is terrible. There are orange pylons sitting around and you dodge the holes as you are driving across the deck of this bridge.

 

The road leading onto and off of the bridge is fine, it does not need to have any asphalt. So is that the kind of project, resurfacing the deck of that bridge, is that something that would be coming out of RIM? How do you identify that because it's not a six-kilometre stretch of road for resurfacing, it's the length of a bridge? What is the best way to approach that and what is the best way to get results for that?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I know Mr. Fitzner has an answer for me because I appreciate the fact that in some situations there's a bridge in the middle of a project and you see that for one reason or another the surface on those three kilometres on one side of the bridge and two kilometres on the other side are upgraded and made the best quality possible at the time but in the middle of it is a 250-metre bridge, or whatever length it is, and that surface was not addressed, so that they literally "skipped" the bridge deck and go on to do the paving on the opposite side of the river, stream or whatever it is. So there is that reverse problem, too, as opposed to just dealing with the deck of the bridge. Now I'll get his answer and you won't agree with it.

MS. CASEY: I will wait.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: There are capital dollars available there for looking at bridge money only and it doesn't necessarily only come out of - we're talking about resurfacing the deck - it doesn't just come from RIM money. There would be, for example, in some projects up to the tune of $50,000 when we look at bridge projects and decks that have to be replaced. They are usually bundled up so that if you are doing decks you are doing decks and bridges in various places. Bring those concerns to us and we'll see what we can do.

 

The concern, of course, is that we have to make sure that we are doing them in some kind of logical fashion because if they are inspecting bridges, most of the bridge inspectors call it like it is. They are interested in what is going on underneath the bridge, they are looking at some of the more technical things as opposed to only the deck is there and it has a few problems but they, rightfully so, their training is based on the fact of what is happening under that bridge.

 

There is a program there and we should be able to address these decks, separate from the roads on either side.

 

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, thank you to the minister for that response because it appears to be just as you have described, that the bridge inspector goes out, is concerned about the stability, the safety, what is underneath. If that proves to be stable then that bridge gets a clean bill of health, so to speak, because it is structurally sound but somehow the surface of it falls through the cracks, if I can use that, so I appreciate that.

 

The next question I want to ask is one that I've talked to you about recently, like in the last couple of days. I just want to raise it here and I know that your response will be forthcoming and I appreciate that. It has to do with the electronic signs. I've spoken to both you and to your staff and shared a letter with you.

 

The electronic signs that have been posted at the approaches to the Cobequid Pass were put there obviously for weather-related messages, for safety of drivers, to warn drivers of hazards that might be ahead due to stormy weather, winter conditions along the Pass. I think drivers have become accustomed to looking at that as they approach that and being someone who travels that road often, you have an opportunity, once you see what's on that sign, to make a decision before you get caught in the Pass. So the location is strategic and I know that was very much part of the reason why they were placed where they were.

 

The concern that has been brought to my attention, or the question I guess that has been brought to my attention is, can messages be put on those signs when we are past the nasty weather time, when warning about hazardous road conditions due to weather, when that season is passed, is there any plan for the use of those signs for any other messages to motorists regarding road safety?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I have been approached in the past, as the minister, on a certain number of occasions by people wanting to use the Cobequid Pass signs. The priority, of course, is road safety, as you say, particularly in the winter months. Noella Reardon has said to me, the last thing we want, Mr. Minister, is people lined up at the door - just an example now - advertising the lobster dinner in Sheet Harbour on the Cobequid Pass signs.

 

There's a couple of restrictions we're looking at, particularly the number of letters that can be in the message, too, how extensive can the message be. There is the opposite side, actually of sign clutter. I travel that road, of course, fairly often although I must admit I prefer the old road, not because I'm cheap but because I can get down onto the River John, come through the Northport bridge when it's finally going to be finished and have the opportunity to see the coast as I make my way to and from my cottage on Prince Edward Island.

 

As long as the message attached is going to be concerning road safety, and I use this example, this is one that was asked; when this happened at the time, as politicians - maybe as Cabinet Ministers, anyway, we always like to be saying yes - when a veteran was returning from the Afghanistan conflict a family member requested the opportunity to have a welcome back to Nova Scotia on the sign. The word has to be no because we're talking about road safety. When you put that sign up there we're dealing with - and the Sheet Harbour lobster festival aside, the Afghanistan situation aside - I know that the member is looking at the possibility of putting something up about Motorcycle Month, correct?

 

MS. CASEY: Bike Awareness Month.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Bike awareness, excuse me, but I mean those are the types of things that can be considered.

 

We have a number of suggestions, ones that are acceptable, whether it is about cell phones or calling 911 for drunk drivers or buckle up, it's the law. The key thing is that we can't get basically beyond 18 letters unless it is going to be quite a sign clutter situation.

 

At this stage we're looking at some alternatives about your specific request, and I know that other people are going to be saying well how did they get it up on this sign and over what period of time. We're not putting one up for a weekend, we're not putting one up for two days or whatever, we're putting it up for a period of time and it particularly deals with road safety. The one that I'm looking at specifically on this topic was, "watch for motorcycles".

 

Now if we are suddenly going to say that May 12^th to June 12^th is Motor Cycle Month, watch for motorcycles, that's too much clutter on the sign. We're willing, as a staff, and I know it will eventually end up on my desk, as long as we're consistent or I'm consistent with the fact that in a situation where I'm not going to be accepting of a personal welcome back to a soldier, I know that - I mean we either have the rules or don't have the rules and this was the decision that was made.

 

It's something that in your particular case hopefully we'll have a suitable solution and the gentleman who wrote to me will have an answer shortly. It's the compactness of the message, road safety is the priority, and it has to be up for an extended period of time. Thank you for that issue.

 

MS. CASEY: I appreciate the attention and the short term attention that you have given to that request. I certainly concur with you that what messages go up there, there has to be lots of careful thought and consideration before you determine what you're going to put up there and that you will have to be saying no to some people, I understand that, but I will leave that to your good judgement, minister.

 

At this point, Mr. Chairman, I turn my time over the Leader of the Party.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition.

 

HON. STEPHEN MCNEIL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, minister.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: The home of Mary Jean Riley.

 

MR. MCNEIL: Not quite in my riding but close. I do want to just talk a little bit about my riding. I know you and I have had a conversation a number of times particularly around Trunk 10, the road that goes out from Nictau heading out through Springfield into Lunenburg County and into Bridgewater. It takes us across to visit our neighbours on the South Shore. It is part of the five-year road plan, which I want to congratulate you on and I've expressed it in many places.

 

There was a tender going out I think for just under 10 kilometres this year. It was going to continue right around the Springfield line, coming in towards Middleton, take us almost, I believe, to the Dalhousie Road. That tender hasn't gone out as yet, to my knowledge. I'm just curious, hoping that it will be.

 

My other concern is that I haven't seen a plan that would continue that road, to finish that road through, in the five-year plan. It is, as I've said, an economic trunk with the South Shore, one that has been allowed to deteriorate to a point now where they are renaming it a memorial highway out there. I think what they mean by that - they're wishing me good health - I think they might be trying to use it as my election defeat. I'm curious what the plan is for Trunk 10.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Of course the five-year road plan will be updated here within the next number of weeks, when we look at what's on the docket for the upcoming year. I know the people in that particular part of your constituency have been very patient. Our plan is to take care of the No. 10 from beginning to end. There will be a plan over the next number of years to make sure it is addressed.

 

When that particular tender is called I'll make a point of giving you a call personally.

 

MR. MCNEIL: I appreciate that. One of the things, not having been a member as long as you have been, but one of the things that I have begun to appreciate over the last seven years, eight years, is that by and large people are reasonable when they understand the challenges we are facing in recognizing the amount of pavement that is across our province. It is all not going to be resurfaced overnight but they do like to see a plan, in the sense, so that's why I congratulate you on the five-year plan. They like to see a plan when we start a particular road that we finish it.

 

The previous government that I dealt with, it was one of the things that I had tried to talk to them about when it was pertaining specifically to my constituency and that was if we're going to start a road, let's finish it and we move on and we do it right and if we can only do five kilometres we only do five kilometres. We do it right and we do the next the following year.

 

As you mentioned earlier, that road is one that I've said to my local staff it would be a priority not just of mine but of theirs and one that really does need to have the attention of the province when you're dealing with that part of Nova Scotia because it is in such deplorable shape and it is an economic corridor of the South Shore.

 

I look forward to seeing the update to the plan. I know that the local guys I'm sure have been talking to the department about that particular piece of having it resurfaced.

 

I sure this question is another question that may have been asked earlier and I apologize if it has been and that is around the RIM funding. Is RIM funding changing this year?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: The commitment that we've been giving to members who have brought it up, if you'd like to know the amount of RIM money that would be in your particular constituency, Ms. Fraser can make that available at a later time to you. There will be $5 million less in the RIM budget this year but there will still be $15 million across the province.

 

We are all well aware of the importance of Rural Impact Mitigation money, whichever acronym you want to use, but I am aware of the fact that I know how important it is in local communities where you can see that some work, of whatever type, is being done locally on a secondary road and it is not being neglected. So those are the figures for the province but in your particular constituency we can get back to you with what specifically you have for your riding.

 

MR. MCNEIL: I would appreciate that at a time - obviously you are busy but whenever you get a chance, if you would do that. Minister, as you alluded to, it is important, that gives us an opportunity on a local level, or the department, to be able to do some stuff with local people. It allows them to deal with, quite frankly, what would be nagging problems that only a member would hear about or someone who works in the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal would hear about and the effect on your constituents. It allows them to respond in a timely way with that funding.

 

I would encourage, as you know, the department as we go through the process, whether it is this year in moving into the next couple of years, that that funding be looked at in a way to allow the department, member, people who are working for the department I know in different constituencies who, by the way, do great work, the flexibility to be able to respond to the needs that have been - they have been unable to do in the more recent past.

 

One of the things that has been, and I don't think it just pertains to my constituency, I think it's probably across the province, the member for Digby-Annapolis talks about the alders an awful lot but one of the things that we're seeing more and more of is heavy amounts of rain coming at different peaks. One of the problems we have is our ditches are not being maintained and cleaned out. What we're getting is a lot of erosion on the sides of the road and, in some cases, it is actually going right underneath the road and washing it out. It is that kind of maintenance that is so important, in terms of the long-term preservation of a section of road. Is there a plan, in terms of looking at ditching in the long term?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you for the question and thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know when it comes to issues that the member just mentioned, I know from some members who have been sitting on the committee through the exchange we're having with members of the opposition in this case, but I've heard from members in my own caucus, too, that you're not going to get a headline and you're not necessarily going to get a pat on the back necessarily when a stretch of pavement or a stretch of chip-sealed road is announced, that's a big deal. But when proper ditch work is being done or there's some bushwhacking being done, that's not going to get you - I don't mean it that way, as a politician involved, people are going to go ho hum but after all, that's really what is important when that road maintenance is there.

 

We continue to make sure, particularly when it comes to drainage areas and the erosion problems you brought up, this is one of the things that was brought to my attention on a regular basis, that in this particular part of the road there is a problem with erosion, a problem with runoff, there's a problem with drainage and those concerns continue to be addressed.

 

One of the things that I can assure you, not just in your area but in other areas of the province, when I see the various reports there's lots of nuts and bolts, if I may use that expression, there's lots of small issues so-called that again, aren't going to get you a headline. I don't mean to go on because I know you're checking your watch there.

MR. MCNEIL: No, that's fine, it's not going to grab you a headline. From my perspective as an elected member, I can tell you I was elected in August of 2003 and I've always deferred to the men and women in my constituency who were there and come to me. It happens annually and they say what are your priorities and I say, well give me your list. They give me their list and I say well that's my priorities because quite frankly, they know better than I do. Every community and every road needs work but they also know and have the expertise in looking at how can we do some of the preventive maintenance that in the long run will help us, as a province, but particularly in my area would help us to be able to use those precious dollars that we have in a more effective way of paving.

 

It is also one of the things that I have talked to and talked with members of your department and my riding is around the patching and RIM. In one of the messages that I want to deliver to the department, I think on their behalf but working with them, is as we have done, as you roll out your five-year plan and continue to update it, it allows the department - I keep calling it "department" but the sheds in my area - to be able to say well you know if next year that road is going to be resurfaced, let's not do patching. Let's pull that back and do it in an area where we know we're not going to get to be able to pave over the next - we won't get to for the next 10 years so let's do some of that patching and work.

 

They have a good understanding of what is happening and they can stretch a buck. It's quite amazing what they can do. So as you unroll that, if - I know this will be happening because I know the logic behind doing the five-year plan - if you engage those supervisors that you have out in the field and the people doing the work, they will stretch and end up in a five-year plan really not only affecting the roads that we're going to resurface but also many of those communities where that patching work can be stretched out even further, and I know you'll be doing that.

 

One other thing, particularly in my own constituency, that has come up and I will talk to the department at home when they're out looking at it is we've had some serious issues around flooding in and around the Wilmot area. For those of you who might know, it is near the Frenchy's store, that's the landmark. What has been happening is there's been a tremendous amount of flooding and actually the ditch holds water and there's been a development.

 

A few years ago we tried to work through the Department of Environment to actually bypass the section because there was never really a ditch put in front. There was another development, they have been filled in, they've been allowed to get permits, so it created a real problem.

 

We worked with the Department of Environment to go in behind to try to drain the water off that property and prevent it from becoming a real hazard because what was happening is the ditch was filling up and overflowing onto the road and, of course, motorists at times were going off the road.

 

We got into this tug of war with the Environment over we would be affecting a couple of ducks that might be landing in the ditch at some point. The frustration for me was that while I want to protect that and while we all do, at some point personal safety has to supersede this and there needs to be a certain level of common sense that starts playing a role into some of this stuff.

 

I know when the previous member was talking to you about this bit of tug of war it almost seems we are at a point where we lose the common sense of this. How do you deal with that? How do you think at some point let's just talk out loud with the story and you know you can't come up with that answer? The answer is your going to clean the ditch out and let the water flow, right. We are still sitting there, now your department has come down and we're going to cost out how much is it going to cost us to dig probably - I'm guessing here - a couple of thousand feet, some of which is paid frontage, to try to correct this problem when simple common sense would allow the problem to be solved in the long run to everyone's satisfaction.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I have to be careful of what I say because when I sat in Opposition, of course, you saw me in my best days there. When I hear the word "environment" and I'm saying to myself, oh my God, there's something that's going to be delayed for whatever period of time for whatever reasons. That was my inner voice that wasn't the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure speaking. We all love the little ducks, for example, close to where I live.

 

I guess the key thing in the midst of that is having faith in the local guys and women who work in these bases because they know the situation. They are aware of the circumstances they have to deal with and in many cases, having lived in the community and driven that particular section close to Exit 17, they see it firsthand and they can turn their hand and say this is what should be done now just get out of the way and let me do it, okay, that's when the process gets involved and gets convoluted very quickly.

 

We have to follow the process appropriately, but if there are ways for us particularly to deal with the men and women locally to say this is the best solution and we should do it in this manner, that's how I like to see it get done. Sometimes it just doesn't happen. Your example of one is the one that is notorious for sure because of the perpetual delays the results because it just comes back to bite us each and every year.

 

MR. MCNEIL: The local sheds have been great and they've come out and worked to try and define, it's when you get this interdepartmental conversation happening it just becomes silly to a point. Particularly around waterways I know that your department would be faced with this an awful lot. It would be helpful, I think, for the local sheds whether it is in my area or across the province, if we could find some way to sit down with whether it's Oceans and Fisheries or the Environment and say listen, we recognize all of us are starting from the point where we want to protect the environment, but how can we best streamline this process so that we can do our work to provide the best safety for people and at the same time helping you do your work. To me that would go a long way because then the guys and gals at home would know the rules, know where to go and they'd be able to get some kind of a response in a more timely way instead of it just drags out to the point where we miss not only one season, we go into multiple seasons and in some cases we miss applying the common sense rule to what's there.

 

One of the things that I think we can do is find some way to sit down with the different departments, even if it's just for this specific kind of waterway issue in terms of road maintenance and clearing, how can we best streamline this process so we can do it in a timely manner? As the member for the particular area and as a member of the House, I would be more than happy and willing to sit down and be part of that because I think it makes a whole lot of sense and it fits nicely into the five-year road plan and being able to say here's where we are going and this will allow the department to deal with some of the small issues that arise on a regular basis.

 

One further question and then I'll hand my time over. Recently, I have been getting more frequently called about the weight classification of roads. I have spoken to the department and they're going to do a test on some of the roads to look at whether or not they can be used on a more regular basis for allowing heavier trucks to come through. One of them that I'm thinking of quite frankly is not in my constituency, it's just outside in Kingston, the member for Kings West. There was a development and they were looking just to be able to haul sand that comes in and out of here. The department is actually going to go out now that the weather is clearing up to do a new core test, is that what they do? They drill for the centre of the core. (Interruption) A strength test, I appreciate that, they're going to do that and there are a couple of other spots in the riding.

 

As we are moving into resurfacing these roads one of the ones that they're testing actually is the No. 1 highway which, I just assumed, quite frankly would be open because this is never closed for winter weight restrictions, it's an actual different weight in the road so I just assumed it would automatically - but now that we're moving into some paving, is there any consideration at that time when we're doing the upgrades on them that we look at upgrading the classification and making sure we put enough pavement on it that it would withstand that kind of extra traffic or weight that is there, or do we just go by what has traditionally been the classification of that road in terms of weight?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I was going to go back to the other comment, but I'll leave all comments with regard to ducks or beavers for another time. The first month I've been the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, let's not talk about beaver dams.

 

This weight classification problem, reviews are always underway and particularly we want to hear from the local businesses about the concerns that they have. It's not just that layer of asphalt, it's what in some situations, as Mr. Fitzner can assure me, it's not just that first layer of asphalt, it's when you get below it, that's when you can run into what is actually there, but it's a point well made, weight classifications on roads is a huge deal. It takes a lot of different sets of circumstances locally in your community as opposed to my community, other circumstances with the businesses and what they're using the road for. It's an ongoing process of negotiations and I think I'll leave it at that.

 

MR. MCNEIL: One of the things that has happened, of course, which is a positive thing, is when from the time the road was originally constructed, or the last time it had been resurfaced, some development has taken place which has changed the usage of that particular area. As I would say to you and your department, as you move forward and they're looking at particular roads I would encourage you to go back to the local department because they have a great sense of what's going on and they would be able to notify whether or not we should be looking at the weight classification. Maybe we don't want to do that for every road, but maybe there are certain times in regions where we need to do it, just because the activity gets changed so much over the last 30 years before something was done.

 

I'm going to finish up, but I just want to close and put on the record how much I appreciate the work that is being done in the Lequille shed and the Middleton shed by your staff. They do a tremendous job, they are often called not when things are good, they often get calls from constituents, like we do, who are upset because the roads are not plowed soon enough or the roads are not fixed or the potholes are not done and they have handled it in a very professional way. We have asked them on a number of occasions to go out and meet with us with constituents, particularly more recently around snowplowing of a particular road. They came in with citizens that were there, they had a very respectful conversation, it was something that you, as minister, and I know the department will be extremely proud of the way they conducted themselves and the way they responded to the needs of that particular community. I wanted to put that on the record to let you know that the men and women who have been working in my constituency on your behalf are doing so in a very professional way and trying to respond to the needs of that area the best they can. If you get a chance, drop in and buy them coffee.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I don't want to take the time from the next member because I do know that having been in a couple of the bases, the depots, the sheds as I call them, certainly in that particular community that you represent, there are good people on the ground doing a good job. I thank you and I'll pass along your comments to them.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park, you have approximately eight minutes remaining.

 

MS. DIANA WHALEN: Thank you very much. I guess I may be coming back in the next hour after our colleagues here have their hour, but I'd like to finish up the eight minutes and raise a few issues.

 

Certainly, I have a city riding so I don't have a lot of the transportation issues my colleagues do from the more rural ridings, but there are some issues that certainly fall under your banner that are of interest to me. I thought I would raise one of them in this first few minutes and then perhaps we'll get to some more. One of them is the speed limits in school zones.

 

I'm sure the minister is aware of the letter that came out recently from the Ecology Action Centre and I have seen a resolution as well from the UNSM, but it indicated that the UNSM agrees that we should lower the speed limit in school zones and that the Ecology Action Centre did and it named about, I think there might have been 20 other organizations that supported this - Active & Safe Routes to School, which is one that is active in my area, which is an organization encouraging children and families to walk to school instead of taking cars. My riding as a city riding is no different than the other areas around the city, the school zones are crowded with families driving their kids to school, so it's really a pretty dangerous area. Whether they are speeding or not it's dangerous, too many people are driving, but what we'd like to do is make it a safer zone so that maybe people will feel better about dropping their children off and letting them walk a longer distance to school.

 

The suggestion is that we look at what some other provinces have. I know Alberta does have this because I did get my driver's licence - however many years ago - in Alberta, where they have playground zones and school zones that are 30 and it's well enforced. At the same time, after dark that rises and in the summertime the school zones go back to regular zones. The one suggestion, when I've discussed this with other colleagues, they felt there would be a problem around rural schools or schools that are already maybe on a highway or secondary road. The suggestion in that letter said that if you're in a zone that is already above 50, you just go down to 50 which is what the current rule is anyway. What they're suggesting is that the city streets go from a 50 to a 30. I wanted to raise it with the minister today and ask him if he looked at that?

 

I'm sorry I don't have the letter in front of me because I was looking through to see if I had it, but one of the things that was most interesting was they said if a person - and this is not even saying a child - is hit with a car going 50 kilometres an hour there is an 80 per cent chance you'll be killed and if you're going 30, it goes down to 5 per cent. The chance of serious injury or death was what it was, it plummets that much with 20 kilometres difference in the speed, so that's the compelling reason is safety on those roads. I thought maybe I would just leave that with you, I think you maybe have a minute or two.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I thank the member for the question and it's good to have you at the table on this particular issue. I don't want to take a lot of your time because I know you've got a couple of other questions.

 

MS. WHALEN: It soon goes, so that's okay, I'll come back.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: The Alberta example is one that I know of because having the opportunity to be there fairly regularly these days, once in a while to see my granddaughter, I do understand the fact in an urban situation 30 kilometres makes a tremendous amount of sense, particularly in Edmonton where there's a lot of traffic, a lot of outdoor rinks and a lot of places where people should be walking to the outdoor rink and playground where they have all these outdoor rinks everywhere, as opposed to doing 50 kilometres in a school zone.

 

We have a committee incidentally that is reviewing this for me and that committee, of course, is eventually going to come forward with some solutions to recommend to me as recommendations, whether they're solutions or not.

 

The example I just want to bring up, because I don't want to take your time, but I just want to use the example of the East Pictou schools. MacDonald School, is it called, Mr. Chairman, out on the highway?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Frank H. MacDonald.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Frank H. MacDonald Elementary School, okay - a major highway. There's the issue where I'm sure there would be members - and I also have the example, thank you for the example - it's the same thing with me in a particular part of my constituency where they're travelling in an 80-kilometre zone and they're coming to 50-kilometre. That's the so-called - excuse the expression - fly in the ointment at this stage, conditioning people to the fact that they're coming into a school zone and the speed limit in a school zone. If there are other jurisdictions where it works - and I've seen it working in Alberta - then we should certainly be open to it at this stage in considering what is going to happen here in Nova Scotia.

 

The concern I have - and it's no reflection on the people who are around the table and no reflection on some of the people who sit on this side of the table at this stage - it is one of those HRM-driven issues. It's important that I also consider as the minister what works in Antigonish County, what works in Pictou, especially Pictou County, but what works outside the towns, what works in the suburban areas as opposed to the specifics of the request.

 

I'm getting lots of correspondence. We're looking at it, what is going to be forthcoming with a recommendation to me as a minister. Other jurisdictions are key for me and I guess the key thing is the safety of our children. In some situations I look at school zones and say nobody is obeying at 50 clicks unless there is an RCMP officer standing there with a speed gun in his hand. Anyway, I don't want to go on too long, but there will be something forthcoming.

 

MS. WHALEN: Thank you, I guess I'll continue. I have a minute, do I?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have two and a half.

 

MS. WHALEN: One thing I would say is sometimes we think an issue might be more urban and, in fact, it would resonate I think in towns and smaller villages. I think that that's a surprise to me. One of the areas I'm going to go to in the next hour is around mufflers and the control of noisy mufflers, particularly motorcycles that are really noisy.

You may remember over the years I have brought in a private member's bill, haven't brought it back for some time, but I think it really does have merit. Having been a city councillor I know that we often grappled with that in the Spring when the bikes first come out on the road, you get complaints through the year as well. The interesting thing I wanted to mention before our time elapses right now is that with that bill when I introduced it I thought it was clearly an urban bill. I know downtown Halifax has a lot of complaints and I really saw it as an urban issue. When it was introduced it was put forward to UNSM from Antigonish Town Council and it was passed by UNSM with full support. I got e-mails from Musquodoboit, from Yarmouth and places I never expected to hear from saying, what a good idea. It really blew me away that this was resonating as an important issue outside the city.

 

So sometimes we might be surprised when we go back to the idea of the speed limits maybe because there is evidence about going slower and saving lives that maybe people will, as well, if we start it in the city I bet you'll find other places that would want to have that option.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: What's really annoying is those little Honda Civics with the base on their stereos late at night and I'm thinking, why doesn't that guy go get a real car, anyway, no reflection on the Honda Civic.

 

MS. WHALEN: They're part of the muffler issue, too. I think that is another area I want to talk about in the next hour when my turn comes.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. That concludes the Liberal caucus time. We will now turn an hour over to the Progressive Conservative caucus.

 

The honourable member for Argyle.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, before we begin I want to explain to the member who is now going to ask the questions. Yesterday Mr. Paul Hollingsworth from CTV came into my office to get the typical sort of old jock flash of the pictures and various things that are hanging in my office, along with a picture of Terry O'Reilly which sits on my desk and Bobby Orr flying through the air and a picture of my father during World War II when he played overseas for the Canadian Army team.

 

When the cameraman was panning around there is a picture in my office and I said, this picture right here, look at this picture. He looked at me and said, it's a picture of an old bridge somewhere and I said, that's a great bridge, there's nothing old about that bridge, why is that bridge here? I couldn't get Mr. Hollingsworth to work that into the piece on the Boston Bruins paraphernalia in my office, so my apologies. The bridge picture hangs proudly in my office and it reminds me each and every day that it's something that eventually will have to be addressed. With those opening comments, I'll turn the floor over to my friend from Argyle.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: I should have asked the minister if he wanted a break for five minutes, we are at the halfway point.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: No, I'm fine.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll keep going then.

 

The honourable member for Argyle.

 

HON. CHRISTOPHER D'ENTREMONT: Thank you very much. I thank the minister for his opening statement and to maybe stretch that one out - it's not where I was going to start, but heck, it gave me the in and I'll use if for just a little bit.

 

The bridge the minister is talking about is one that I've asked a number of questions to in the House of Assembly, the Indian Sluice bridge which, even though she's a beautiful bridge in a beautiful location, if you can picture a three-span green bridge, a single lane connecting the community of Sluice Point to Surette's Island, she's a wonderful old bridge. The unfortunate part is, she's a wonderful old bridge. She's over 100 years old now and that is the only connection of Surette's Island and Morris Island, it's the only way it connects to the mainland.

 

I have had the opportunity to talk to the minister about this and I do really thank the minister for his interest in this, but the community is getting to a point where it wants to know where it's at with bridge replacement. The more we go on in time, the more expensive this bridge gets. I would have guessed that had we replaced the bridge back in the 1990s or even in the 1980s, we probably would have been better off than we are today.

 

The bridge itself is in okay shape, I think is probably the best way to explain it, it has a lot of challenges if you look at it closely. It has lots of rust, they've cut some pieces off and forgot to tell us about it, a whole bunch of things that go on around the Indian Sluice bridge. I invite anyone who has the opportunity to come to southwest Nova Scotia and I know you, Mr. Chairman, in your previous life, you would have driven across this bridge visiting The Tittle with Uncle Arnold and down to Morris Island. I'm just wondering if there's a bit of an update on the Indian Sluice bridge? I know it did show up in the five-year plan for 2013-14, I believe. I'm just wondering maybe at this point an update on the bridge and maybe what the future plans for that bridge are going to be?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you for the question, not that I was making any kind of glib comments, in fact, I know we've had this comment back and forth about the bridge and the patience of the community, particularly when the councillors were present that day. I think it was interesting to see the fact that they actually saw a member of the Opposition and a government minister who could get along behind closed doors with no difficulty at all.

 

I'm looking at the fact of whether we can get the bridge up higher on the list. What we've done is we've hired a consultant - no reflection on that terminology, please - somebody who can give me and the department some specific advice of how we can move it up and not leave it back in 2013-14 framework, right? The key concern, of course comes down to the safety issue involved, making sure that we have a continuous way to make sure that Surette's Island is in contact with the mainland.

 

Again, the issue that I have is the fact that the people have been very patient and we want to make sure that if there is a need, I mean the financial impediment is one of the issues, but the basic most foremost concern is the safety of the bridge itself. There is going to be a report forthcoming in terms of what is the actual situation with the bridge and not just the surface, of course, it's what is underneath it.

 

For the members present I should point out that this bridge - having had the occasion to be over and to see first-hand and to go over to Surette's Island and see that part of your constituency - it's really quite a glorious structure. In fact, the picture that is in my office, I believe, is a parade that was on it that day. There is a wonderful antique vehicle and this wonderful parade that is being led because the people in the community were celebrating, was it Canada Day they were celebrating?

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: The 100^th Anniversary.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Yes, that's what it was, okay. So please continue to reassure the people in your community and when the need comes if they want us to sit down again, we're going to look at this report and see how we're doing on it because they have been more than patient and, of course, it's an $18 million project and that's a fair chunk of change. The safety concern remains at the top of the list, but I know there are probably other bridges you want to talk about.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: I'm going to continue on this one for just a little bit because the added support that we have on this one is that we do have a good community group there that is sort of being the steward of the bridge itself. If I would ask anything it would be to continue the contact with that bridge replacement group which is what we're calling it right now. It is made up of a number of ladies and gentlemen, more particularly Earl Muise, who did have the opportunity to travel to your office and meet with you, as well as Councillor Guy Surette and other people like Clifford Amirault, who are interested in their community which is Surette's Island and the safety of that bridge.

 

I hear quite often that people are worried that it did happen once, it happened in 1996, when the part of that bridge closest to the island did let go. Luckily at that point nobody was hurt, but it was a number of weeks that it was no longer connected to the mainland, which did create a bit of a problem when it came to busing and travel and the like for the members of that community, but just to make sure that we stay in contact with them.

 

An issue that I will underline - because it's a fishing village and just off the bridge there is the Sluice Point wharf - some people were in and around the bridge one day and saw this huge piece of steel laying on the ground, sort of half in the water and half on the beach. Pandemonium broke out once again of oh my God, a piece just fell off the bridge and it wasn't for a day or so that we were able to ascertain that it was a piece that was actually cut off the bridge back during some work in November and no one really knew about it. I just sort of ask you to make sure that any work that is done to that bridge to either let me know, let the councillor know, the bridge replacement committee just to make sure that they have contact with the community to let them know what's going on with their bridge.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: The member has made that point to me privately before and your point is well made. There is no doubt about that communication because that bridge is more than just a tourist attraction, it's a lifeline.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Exactly. I thank you for those comments. I will move on a little bit. Of course, we know that back in November we had a bit of a flood and there were a number of structures at that time that were either compromised or completely destroyed. The first one I'll talk about is the Raynardton Bridge. Even though it's not necessarily right in my constituency it's right on the edge of it and people do travel back and forth through that one.

 

The Raynardton Bridge is another little single-lane bridge, it had just been replaced the year before and what had happened to that one is that the foundation ended up deteriorating and I think the bridge had been removed for the period of time that the new foundations were put in. I don't think at this point the bridge has been replaced yet, it hasn't been put back on its foundation, so I'm wondering about a bit of an update on that or when the foundations are expected to be complete and the bridge replaced?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: This bridge will be replaced this year, based upon the fact, of course, that we have a concern not just with the structure, we have concern with the abutments, that's where we are at this stage. I heard the Leader of the Opposition earlier talking about permits, environmental delays and so on, that's not where we're going to go with this. We're trying to make sure that we're ready to have the structure up and in place as soon as possible. The major issue at this stage is making sure the abutments are ready for the eventual placement of the bridge.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: I think what frustrated people on that one was it had just been redone, it had been damaged by someone's float that came by with a tractor trailer or something like that and hit the side of it and ended up damaging the bridge and it had been out for a long period of time. It had been replaced, but it had only been replaced, the abutments have not been redone so this was an added piece where they basically took the new bridge off of it and put it back on a trailer and sent it somewhere else and they're redoing the abutments at this point. It will be good to see that because what has happened, I heard on a couple of occasions - and I don't know whose responsibility this is and I haven't really figured out where to go on this one, but I'll ask it to you. When a bridge is out like that, who basically gets to tell the Department of Health and the ambulance service that the bridge is out?

 

There were a couple of occasions where the ambulance had gone the wrong way and got to the bridge where they're supposed to go across and realized they had to be over there and had to go 10 minutes around the lake in order to get to where it needed to be. I'm just wondering, just to make sure that the emergency organizations know that the bridge is out? The ambulance at this point did not know it was out, of course, they use a GPS function to find civic addresses and for some reason it was in the wrong place and had to go around.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: The reply will be quite short, member, because of the fact that based upon those experiences and mistakes made before we can't have them repeated. It's a matter of coordination with people on the ground coordinating with EMO or the RCMP or the local fire department or whatever else. Again, I know you have some questions, but I want you to know that in the midst of some of the difficulties you are facing in your community, I, as minister, want to express again to you publicly how important it was that I can pick the phone up both ways and we could be in contact with each other when we needed something to be addressed.

 

Those particular incidents you just used, we can't have a repeat of those things and must do everything possible to make sure it just isn't going to happen. We have to learn from these experiences, we don't need more experiences to learn from in this case, but we have to learn from what we've endured thus far.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: I know we tend to depend a little too much on our electronic systems and knowing how our ambulance system works - and this is really not a question for the minister - the way that they are deployed, they do use a very sophisticated electronic system and I think in some cases it probably missed itself when it was instructing the paramedics where to go. This only happened once and I was only made aware of it a couple of days ago so I really haven't had the time to follow this one through. Had it been the local fire department or whatever, it would have known and would have made its adjustments elsewhere.

 

That does bring me to the third bridge to talk about which is, of course, the Tusket bridge itself. It's the one many people would have seen pictures of during the flood that had basically been taking traffic across it while all the other bridges were shut down and collapsed into the water. Sort of unbeknownst to everybody, talking to the engineers, they had basically looked at it a few hours before and didn't feel that it was in any threat. Again, it's an older, single-lane bridge that does need replacement and it's quite a span that it needs to span. I'm just wondering where that is in order - and I know it has been ordered and I know there is work being done or most of the work has been done up to this point - I'm just wondering where the Tusket bridge on Highway No. 3 is?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: When that bridge is ready this summer I expect an invitation for you and I to go down and cut the ribbon. It could be a blue ribbon, it can be an orange ribbon, it can be chunk of old rope, but that bridge will be replaced this summer.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Minister, for you we will have a nice, yellow Boston Bruins ribbon to cut anytime you are willing to come down. That is good to hear because you do hear from some people that they don't believe it's coming, they don't think they're going to do it right now and there's all this stuff going on. I know the tender had gone out and the work is moving forward, but to hear that it's going to be open this summer is good news for that community. It's kind of funny because when it did happen there was a lot of people that would have said, I don't think it's a bridge we need because quite honestly you can go up on Highway No. 103 and sort of get around it that way and sort of sneak back in through the Raynardton Road, but the more time that has gone by, the more people have realized, I really miss taking that bridge, it saved me five minutes going here or five minutes going there.

A lot of people would have said that they probably didn't need the bridge, but I think as time has gone on people realize the importance of having that crossing for two reasons, one is the time of being able to cross there and two, it has really turned the intersection between the Raynardton Road and Highway No. 103, it's a flat crossing at this point, but it's part of the detour and people are making illegal left-hand turns to get back down to Highway No. 3. It actually, in the end, has created a bit of a traffic issue. Luckily, nothing has happened, I think everybody is playing it pretty cool, but people who don't know the area are just taking their left-hand turn off Highway No. 3 onto that, rather than pulling off on one side and they're still doing U-turns, but at least they're off the highway. It is good to know that it will be coming.

 

Let's talk about something else that just more recently you and I have been talking about which is the issue of the East Pubnico water system. The East Pubnico water system which is - it's funny how you grow up in a community and you don't realize something is there. For many years I've known there is a water tower in East Pubnico, for many years I've known there are fire hydrants in East Pubnico, but I always thought they belonged to the fish plant which is Sea Life Fisheries, the largest herring plant in Nova Scotia at this point. It's actually owned by the Province of Nova Scotia and has been owned by the Province of Nova Scotia for about 40 years, if not a little bit longer. Not only is there one water system in East Pubnico, which by the way travels alongside Highway No. 3 on its way to the beautiful constituency of Shelburne, there are two systems. There is the Popes Road system and the French Lake system. Recently there has been some noise that the province is looking at divesting of these water systems.

 

At this point it doesn't look like there are a lot of interested people in owning the system, yet there are three or four fish plants that are using substantial amounts of water from those systems. I was wondering if the minister wanted to give us a bit of an update on that system and basically the plans of divestiture of those systems?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: The divestiture process, of course, is one that we're going to pursue, but I don't want to put too much emphasis on the word "pursuit" because it's really important that the local folks, the local businesses in this situation, the local fire departments and other situations have the opportunity to feel comfortable with how this divestiture is going to take place.

 

When I became the minister, among the many things I became aware of was that we, as a department, were actually in the water system business which struck me as something like, we're into highways and bridges, but not just, of course, down in the Pubnicos, there are other parts of the province where there are water systems which we, as a department, over the past number of years have been involved. The divestiture process began - if I have the date wrong, my apologies - I think it was in 2007, in that time frame when the government of the day said we're getting out of this business, we're going to negotiate with the municipalities, we're going to look at the local folks, whether it's a business or whatever else and how are we going to make sure that we can step away from running these water systems.

 

We have been picking away at it during the time that I've been the minister. The number one reassurance that I can give, and I know the member has been good about this, is that this isn't something that's going to happen tomorrow. It's important specifically that there is a time frame involved, particularly when we look at the - I know that I now say it correctly - we have a herring fishery of some real consequence and this particular fish company, Sea Life Fisheries, has a huge role to play in the community and they count heavily on this water system. There is still consultation to take place, but it will happen eventually. Does it mean it's going to happen tomorrow? No, but it will happen eventually.

 

The final thing, of course, is I want members who perhaps aren't aware of this and I don't want to take the time of the member, but we can't just give this system away to them. People are going to say this system is going to take a great deal to maintain, it's going to be expensive to keep up to scratch. It's not a situation where we'll say if you want it we'll give it to you, it's a situation that's a real difficulty because of the financial commitment to make sure that it can be maintained.

 

Again, a reassurance to the member, I know that he will continually, as he does his job, be in contact with me as the minister. We want to make sure that we have local input, but eventually, the fish plant there, along with the local fire departments sometime in the future will no longer be able to count on the government for the water system.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: No, at this point you can sell it for a buck and you could give them the buck but they're not going to take it because right now there are too many unknowns about the system, especially if you're looking at a 40- to 50-year-old system, what's the status of the piping, how are the wells? What kind of work does the tank need? It's one of those large, big white water tanks, what kind of shape is that in? People, of course, if they want to take something like that over they want to understand what their liability is when they take it over. Like I said, there are two systems there, if it was just one you could say all right, one company can pick it up and charge the other guys in order to get it done.

 

There are actually two systems that come down in that community - and I know we're actually taping this but it's hard to get that on Hansard - but it comes from two different directions along the highway. One is a well system, one is a lake system. Neither one of those systems actually use any chlorine at all, but they qualify it a food-grade water. What they use it for for the most part within the fish plants, if you understand how fish plants are taken care of and cleaned, they require fresh water service for cleaning, sweeping up, not necessarily for the canning, but the flooding and the flow of the fish through their systems. Quite honestly it's like 15 million gallons of water amongst the three fish plants. So when I heard that number I just shook my head because I didn't realize that much water was required from a fish plant, but they do.

 

The biggest fish plant that we talk about, which is the Sea Life Fisheries owned by Comeau Seafoods, is the biggest herring fish plant on the Eastern Seaboard. It has the capability of producing 320 tons of fish a day, it's a humongous amount of fish. It's tank load after tank load of herring when, of course, the herring fishery is producing lots of fish. For the most part the fish it produces is a butterflied, pickled fish and that's used for Solomon Gundy and those kinds of products, which is a really neat little plant that we've got there that employs well over 100 people during its peak time. It's a phenomenal piece of infrastructure that we have in our neck of the woods that requires, I think in this case, 7 million gallons of water in order to do its thing during a three-month process.

 

The challenge that they had is not necessarily - you could say well why can't they get their own system going or put their own wells in. To get that quantity of water out of the local area is very difficult to do. It is the middle of the community, there are probably 20 to 30 houses in around it and that would probably drain the aquifer if you actually went and tried to pull that kind of water out of the ground. The system it does pull from, pulls up French Lake - I'm trying to get the name of the road - there's a well system there, but it's sort of out of the village, it's out of the way in the woods and you can pull water from there without too much problem.

 

I thank the minister for his comments on that, I thank him for working with me on this because I was basically late to this parade, I wish I had known about it a little while ago so I could have had further discussion with the department. Nonetheless we're on it and I thank the minister for his comments on the East Pubnico water system.

 

Of course, a discussion with the Minister of Transportation and Public Works wouldn't be complete without a discussion of a few roads. My constituency of Argyle is not too bad off compared to other constituencies in the province, but I do have a couple of roads that I'm hoping are making the list sooner than later.

 

The first one I'm going to talk about is the Comeaus Hill Road. The Comeaus Hill Road is not a numbered highway, it goes through the communities of Little River. For those of you who know that Nova Scotia Duck Toller is actually a Little River Duck Toller, but it was adopted as the Nova Scotia Duck Toller, it was in that community. Anyway, the road that goes through it is atrocious, it's one of those 1980s, if not late-1970s roads that got that brown chip seal on top and has been that way and it's crumbling off to the sides. I'm just wondering if the Comeaus Hill Road, Melbourne, Comeaus Hill, Little River Road is going to get some work done to it?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I actually know the terminology, brown chip seal, right.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: I'm not too sure, but it's brown.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Yes, I know what you're talking about. Again, your list of priorities I have here in front of me and I'm aware of some of the work that's going to be done in your constituency. That particular road will have to be rated. Did I hear you correctly by saying that there's no number attached to that road?

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: I don't believe there's a number because the 334 is the Wedgeport Road, but this one, I think, is just called the Little River-Comeaus Hill Road.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Okay, well let's clarify that one.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Apparently there was a tender, I'm not sure, somebody was talking to me the other day about the Little River Wharf Road that had just been paved like three years ago, that seemed to be tendered again, but I don't know. You have the tenders, I don't, so I'm not too sure on that one.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: That would be something we would have to clarify with you because I'm aware of the fact that in certain situations - and it's no reflection on the community - you're calling it a particular road and we're calling it with a number, but that will be clarified for you. However, I am aware of the fact that a portion of Trunk 3 in East Pubnico, there is a tender going to be called for that and he has it right here for us. On Highway No. 103 to the Willets Road.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: The Willets Road is where the water tank is, and that's the one I was looking for, for the wells. So from where to the Willets Road?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: The Highway No. 103 connection to Willets Road.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: So that's from the connector road, so that's at the gas station right up to the Willets Road, so that's a . . .

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: You see if I had asked you that you would have told me and I would have known where I was. It's 6.5 kilometres.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: That's a good stretch of road which is probably the same distance that Comeaus Hill Road would require as well. That's where I was going to move you to, so I'm glad (Interruption) I hear the Deputy Premier saying something back there.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: No, he's heckling me, get him out of here.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Like I was going to say as we move on, a lot of my constituency, the main road, of course, is the trunk, so it's Trunk 3 that goes basically from Arcadia right to the border of Shelburne in Lower East Pubnico. That whole road needs work. It would be hard for me to say East Pubnico needs it over Argyle or as you roll around, so I'm just wondering if there's a bit of a plan along the way to try to get our trunk roads fixed up? A lot of people come off that 100-Series Highway to see some of the local area and they're not met with a really nice road to drive on along there. Is there a future plan for more work along the trunks?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: That particular trunk is going to be part of the update with the five-year road plan as it's updated this upcoming year, future years, because of the fact that the trunks cannot be forgotten or neglected because, after all, they play an integral part in moving goods and services and, of course, in your situation, the herring fishery on Highway No.103, so we're not going to forget about it.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Thank you, it's very good to hear. Over the last number of years we were able to complete Route 335 down through West Pubnico. We were able to do some work on 334 up through Plymouth, that's going to require a bit of completion down in the Lower Wedgeport area. I'm just hoping that in some future plans that will get complete, but like I said, I can't talk about Lower Wedgeport until I get that Comeaus Hill thing done or I'm going to get shot when I get down there, or at least the local councillor, Junior Murphy will make sure I know. Every time he calls me he asks about his road. He has been the only one who actually does it on a regular basis, but definitely if you can give me some further detail on that later on.

 

Beyond that - I just wanted to check my list here to make sure I have all my issues covered, because I think I'm coming close to my end here.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: You've got 25 minutes.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: I know we've got lots of minutes, but I'm coming close to my end. I just have two issues. The issue of highway signage, and I know I've talked about this one before, if the local community wanted to put a sign on Highway No. 103, for instance. There has been a lot of talk of how we sign on our highways, especially when it comes to businesses and tourism. Are we going to be looking at the signage policy at some point? I know there are a number of companies that would like to find a way to put some kind of advertising on the highway, whether it looks like that services sign that we see if you go through Bridgewater where Exit 13 has - you can see that Tim Hortons and Subway and all those are on there. Is there an option that you could put a Harley Davidson dealership or a gas station or a local hardware store as people travel along there?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I've been having a very good day today because of certain events. When you bring up highway signage the expression dog's breakfast . . .

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Oh, I know.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I don't mean to be offensive with dogs' breakfasts. There is going to be a piece of legislation introduced by myself as the Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal Minister and the topic is signage. It doesn't affect the 100-Series Highways because they're controlled access and there's those continuing issues with those so-called "grandfathered", I guess grandmothered when we put those signs in place. But we're looking at bringing in some legislation within the next week which would, of course, go through the House to see if it can be tested.

 

The problem, of course, when it comes to signage is the lack of consistency across the province. I don't want to take your time going on about it, but the one that I always point to is Prince Edward Island and how Prince Edward Island can do it. Well that's just great, okay, because Prince Edward Island is the size of the HRM, so let's get that right out of the way from the get go. There are some places where there are sign clutter problems all over the place.

 

There is a piece of legislation that if forthcoming - and I guess I should be quite up front about it - there's a bit of a not-so-hidden agenda when you see what it involves. This is the 200^th Anniversary of the community of Peggy's Cove. Peggy's Cove is highly promoted as it is, if you're on your way to it someday your neck is going to hurt if you try to read signs because it's just a mishmash to put it politely. Some of this legislation, of course, comes back to whether TIANS, in our example here, the tourist association, or the businesses are all singing from the same song sheet, it's definitely an issue. Sign clutter in certain places, in fact, I find it to be downright offensive in spite of the fact that some people play by the rules and get the proper permits and put the signs in the proper places and the certain length - I'm not talking the 100-Series Highways here now - away from the centre line. Then there are others that are just tacked up on telephone poles, trees and so on and they're never maintained.

 

As I said to the member when I began the conversation, we can talk about highway signage at length, but you're going to get me in an awful bad mood after the day I had thus far, it has been very good. Stay tuned for the legislation that is forthcoming and it hopefully will help not just the community of Peggy's Cove, but it will help other municipalities around the province. It's something that Billy Joe MacLean agrees too.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: As long as Billy Joe accepts it, I guess we're doing okay. The question I get - not to go too long because I don't want to get the minister upset . . .

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: He has already given you a bridge.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: I know, but he hasn't given me the $16 to $18 million one yet. It's sort of the local chamber of commerce who say, how do we get people off that darn Highway No. 103 to get them into our community, to get them to see not only our tourism sites, but come to our farmers' market or buy parts at a Harley Davidson store, those kinds of things, so that's where my question sort of comes around, how we can continue to get people off our 100-Series Highways, especially tourists? For a long time we had the ferry there and the majority of people just kept right on trucking to get out of the area, so just to find a different way to entice people off that highway, to get them into some of our smaller, quaint communities so that's really where the question sits around.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: And to get to see real - no reflection on the fact that the 100-Series Highways take people in a faster way from one destination to another, but you get to sense the real Nova Scotia. The combined signs you see at certain exits where they can put whatever is down, whether it's an antique shop or whether it's a Tim Hortons or whatever else, but there are some unique types of signs that are put in places where we want to make sure they still call that - I've used the expression a couple of times without offending anybody - where they can get off the beaten track. Thanks for the note, I agree with the member, though.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Basically the final thing I'm going to want to talk about is grading and, of course, brush cutting in Yarmouth County. I had this long conversation one time with the deputy minister when we were still in government. The excuse I would always get when it came to brush cutting in southwest Nova Scotia was, you'd ask the question, when are they going to come and cut the brush? Nine times out of 10 the answer I would get is the machine's broken. We share it with Shelburne and Digby so it's on a two-week rotation, so it's two weeks in one county, two weeks in another county and two weeks back in Yarmouth County. Continually the excuse I would get would be the machine was in Shelburne but it broke down so we're waiting for a part to come back. Over my eight-year career as an MLA I have heard that, I'm sure, 150 times.

 

When we were in government I went over and talked to your deputy and said listen, we need a new machine because every time I call the damn thing's broken. The deputy was very good, was able to basically get us on the list for a new machine and lo and behold the area engineer turned it down, Greg turned it down, he said no, we don't need it.

We are still struggling with one machine amongst three counties and if you know the member for Digby, he continually talks about the machine, the brush cutting in his area. I share that pain with him because it's basically the same machine that breaks down on us that we don't get any use. I'm just wondering from an infrastructure renewal standpoint, as you're starting to replace some of the equipment, could you consider - I wouldn't say a new machine for us, but I don't know if we need a possible second machine, I don't know what the deal is there? Could you maybe have staff look at it once again because I'm afraid I'm going to get the same excuse.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Those bushwhackers - that's the terminology I use for them - are always in demand in certain areas. We constantly review when it comes to updating our so-called "fleet". Aside from plows, trucks and various other pieces of equipment, this is a piece of equipment that does attract a lot of attention on where it is and how often it breaks down. I've faced similar excuses like that in the past.

 

At this stage I can't give you a commitment, but I understand. You are not the only member who has brought it up, in fact, you're the third one today and the fact that it's spending too much time in Inverness, it should spend more time in Victoria County, as opposed to East Hants, as opposed to Hants West. The point has been made and we know how important the machine is.

 

I just want to add as an afterthought if I may, though, that in some situations you then get people who complain about the terrible job it does, the bushwhacker goes in there and just destroys and, of course, it will hit everything from a fencepost to a - well, not a mailbox - but it just wreaks havoc to be truthful, in certain situations. When I have the opportunity to have the machine in my particular community I say to folks listen, don't complain about it, it will eventually grow back anyway. Just give it a season and it will be back at you again. Your point has been well made as it has been made by other members, in fact, this afternoon specifically.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: I appreciate that because I've heard it too many times where it has broken down. I don't mind sharing it amongst the three counties if we could at least get a week's work out of it, then you could actually get something done. Last year it was well into November before work got completed in my area and that shouldn't happen. There should be some work throughout the year to get things cut back and then it doesn't look like a war zone in some places. You go up beyond those roads where they're trying to cut branches that are over two inches thick, if not three inches or four inches thick. That's not alders and brush anymore, those are trees they're trying to cut down with that machine and it does look like crap. If they could do it a little sooner, get them when they're a little more green or fresh, it might make a heck of a lot less mess. Thank you for looking into that one.

 

My last issue is snowplowing and usage of the side plow. The reason I'm going to use this is I have to use my own personal experience. We just had a number of roads near my home racked. They were, of course, paving along Highway No. 103, I don't live very far off Highway No. 103. They decided to put the recycled pave on my road and a number of roads in and around my area. I can tell you it did a beautiful job. They spent some time on it, they made sure there was adequate gravel to be mixed in with the rack and put it down. This was late October, it was mid-October that they were doing that work because I believe the paving contract had to be complete by mid-November, whatever it was. They put this nice stuff on the road, everything looks good, everybody is happy. Winter rolls around and one-third if not one-half of that nice new gravel ended up either in the ditch or three feet up my lawn. I'm just wondering, I know it's a tough job, I know it's a tough business, but what kind of training do some of these guys go through in order to run a plow? In this particular case because it's a dirt road it's actually a grader with a plow. I spent most of my weekend raking the gravel back into the road because it was halfway up my lawn. I just look at all that nice, new gravel that our road had is now down in those ditches and not on the road where it should be.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: It would be wonderful if I could just turn the microphone over to Mr. Fitzner because I've heard him trying to drive a plow in the past, the things he avoided and didn't back up on - you didn't want me to tell them that, did you?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: You make a good point. I do know that in some areas there has been a turnover of younger plow operators and whether the Snow Buster Program, where they are actually taking the training - and I should point out to you that one of the people I met in my tour of the various locations around the province was when I was meeting the plow operator who is a woman, who works out of the Musquodoboit base and what pride she takes in operating that piece of equipment.

 

It's a point made, particularly in terms of the fact whether they're going too fast or whether they are aware of the type of conditions they have in front of them. Your point is well made and I thank you for making it.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Well, thank you very much for that and you know I find it discouraging that we did all that work to get the roadbed in a particular way and I look at my neighbour's lawn - mine wasn't half-bad where they went up a little bit, it was two to three feet onto the lawn that we had to rake back for, I think my road frontage is 250-odd feet that I had to rake back - but the guy over, gee, he got probably two feet of rack this deep. I'm sure it was six inches, eight inches deep out onto his lawn and then into his ditch, so you sort of think there was a lot of gravel there and now it's way over there and is never going to get to be used again.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: There's no need for that.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: I don't know if there's a good way to fix it either, once it gets plowed over there it's going to be really hard to scrape it back.

 

Anyway, with that I want to thank the minister again for his answers and again for working with me. I have to say that the minister is probably the one I enjoy working with the most - not to butter you up too much for bridges and stuff, but you are a very approachable minister and I do enjoy spending some time in your department and talking about the issues that are important for those people in my constituency.

 

With that I know the member for Victoria-The Lakes does want to ask a few more questions, to complete our hour.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: If I may, Mr. Chairman, this handwritten note which says; "Minister, reminder, I owe Chris two bridges." Is that your note?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: That's not my note.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Oh yes, it is, I remember when you gave it to me. Anyway, thank you for your comments.

 

MR. D'ENTREMONT: There you go. You save far too much.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: No, that was a napkin. Mr. Chairman, how much time does the member have, if I may just check my watch.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: There is approximately 12 minutes remaining.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I just asked out of interest, whether I wanted to take a break. Go ahead, please, member.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Victoria-The Lakes.

 

MR. KEITH BAIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to be honest, I didn't expect to have the opportunity to get back. I was sharing my time with my other colleagues but I'm pleased to have the opportunity to ask the minister a couple more questions. I guess the first question I want to ask is concerning Seal Island Bridge. This is the 50^th Anniversary of the opening of Seal Island Bridge, it was opened in 1961. My reason for asking this is because there was a student who goes to Boularderie School who had to do a paper in her class so she did a paper on Seal Island Bridge. She looked at the Canso Causeway where they had a 50^th Anniversary celebration of the opening of the Canso Causeway.

 

Her father called me and said the fact that it has been 50 years since Seal Island Bridge opened, is there any way that the department can, in some way, have a recognition day or something special to commemorate the 50^th Anniversary of the opening of Seal Island Bridge, so I'll ask that question to you now.

MR. ESTBROOKS: As long as I don't have to lead the parade walking across it because I can assure you that I get on many structures and when I drive them I am very careful about the fact that I'm saying to myself, uh, I don't know. I'm sure there's something we could work on with the young student and the community, specifically. It's a structure of some consequence in the community and that part of Cape Breton would never be the same if, for one reason or another, we didn't have the Seal Island Bridge. (Interruption) Yes, but I'm looking forward to hearing from the student.

 

MR. BAIN: Mr. Chairman, if something could be done; I don't think we have to be on the bridge. First of all, you wouldn't be able to get on the bridge without closing it all together anyway because there are no sidewalks on Seal Island Bridge, which is a topic for another day when there's lots of money available. If there was something done, a special day to commemorate the opening, I'm sure the community - the Canso Causeway is important because it's the mainland link to Cape Breton. Seal Island Bridge comes off Kelly's Mountain and hooks up Boularderie Island - another island within an island and if something special was done, I think it would be a great idea.

 

Since I'm on the topic of bridges, I'm going to ask about the Corson Bridge in Ingonish. That has been a project that has been going on a long time and I know that work is ongoing, but I'm just wondering if we could get an approximate date as to when the new structure will open. I guess my biggest concern is would it be open before the tourist season begins? It was certainly a hardship to the community last summer.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I wish we could be more specific, but we'll have to get you a few more details. I understand the importance of having that up and operating as soon as possible but I don't have the details at this time here. I'll get them for you, in terms of making it operational as soon as we possibly can.

 

MR. BAIN: Thank you for that. I know there hasn't been a great deal of activity taking place around the site the last while, but the road closures could be playing a part in that too. Maybe when the roads open we can have a better idea, but if you could provide me with some information as to an approximate time that the bridge might open, I'm sure the residents of the area would appreciate it.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: That's fine, thank you.

 

MR. BAIN: Another concern that is in the community is the Dalem Lake Provincial Park. I've written you a few times about the road that leads to the park. It's also a residential area. There's probably about, I'm going to say, between 16 to 20 homes in that general area, there's a subdivision in there and the residents complain it's a gravel road that needs quite a bit of work done to it. The residents have been looking to get the road paved because when the park is open they have to endure the dust. In the Spring it is nothing but mud, in the winter it's nothing but ice.

I wondered at some point whether the Department of Natural Resources, since the park was in that way, if it could be cost shared. I was told at that time it couldn't. I'm wondering if the department could at least look at that road. It would require some ditching, but at least look at that road for possible chip seal that would eliminate the dust that the people have to endure and would also eliminate the potholes and much of the cost of maintenance that occurs on that road that leads to the provincial park. It is a very heavily travelled road in the summer.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: If I may just ask a question. I know you're asking the questions and I'm supposed to have the answers, but a chip seal road, that road would not have a lot of heavy equipment put on it because of it being a provincial park. I mean, there would be a garbage truck that would go into the provincial park once in awhile while it's operating in the summertime, but there wouldn't be anything that would be regular truck traffic on it, would there?

 

MR. BAIN: Even with the subdivision in there, that's how they got in there. The subdivision is past the entrance to the park so that you have your garbage trucks that are travelling on a regular basis. Well, once a week for regular garbage pick-up. That would be about the only heavy truck traffic. It would be mostly cars that would be travelling in.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Well I can say, based upon what I've been hearing about chip-sealing candidates, that should be one of them, whether it will be on the list for this year or not but if you as a member are willing to - because there were some people, and I don't know if you were in here earlier when I was mentioning this, I think it's really important that the local MLA, not necessarily sell chip sealing, but at least promote it and say it's better than what we have and it's something that we can use.

 

Based upon those comments that's something that we certainly can look forward to seeing as a possible solution.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: A shade less than five minutes remaining.

 

MR. BAIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you minister for that answer. In dealing with the correspondence, the residents signed a petition and once they found out they couldn't get the road paved, I did suggest that possibly double chip seal could be used which would eliminate, as I said before, the dust and the potholes. It would even assist in the snow and ice removal in the winter so I will continue to follow up with the residents on that to see if that would be a desire that they would have at this point and I will follow up with you once I find out.

 

My final question, if time permits Mr. Chairman, would be concerning the number of employees who are working out of the Baddeck garage and of course the Bras d'Or garage and the Cape North garage as well. At certain times some of the seasonal workers get laid off and I'm just wondering is there any anticipation with the summer coming on and into the fall whether the work force will remain the same for that period of time?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Well, I do know at least from my own experience in my community that there is that time where there is that state of flux, if I can use the appropriate expression that way. Without doubt we have to be very careful with making sure that we fill this FTE component that I hear about. Sometimes I have to get my head around what that means as opposed to an actual person, as 2.6 people I'm thinking to myself who is that 0.6 person. There are going to be some decisions made in some various local areas but we still have to have crews out there doing the work so hopefully it will not overly affect your area more than any other.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Time for another question.

MR. BAIN: Okay just a very short question and again it's concerning the garbage along the roadway and especially at the two lookoffs on Kelly's Mountain, at the Bras d'Or lookoff and St. Ann's lookoff. I know it's the policy not to have garbage containers because a lot of times they don't work but what's happening is if you stop at a lookoff and you're standing at the guardrail you see garbage everywhere. I guess the question is the responsibility of picking up that garbage; should Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal be notified and they will send a crew out to pick up that garbage, or whose responsibility is it?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I was speaking with Mr. Fitzner and I appreciate the ability to get that advice, but considering our priorities and where we are with the men and women we have working for us, highway priorities and doing the actual leg work of making sure the highways are efficiently run and as safe as possible, in certain situations if the need is there we would help to clean out those garbage cans especially if they're in public access areas but in most cases, particularly in the paving season ahead, we're going to be using the men and women who work for us in those projects.

 

No reflection on the importance of cleaning out garbage cans but I would be remiss if I answered you to say that I would take a crew that's laying down some chip sealing and have them clean out garbage cans, as a minister I would say - dare I say it again without the media being here - pave Davey pave.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: That concludes the time for the Progressive Conservative caucus. It's my understanding we've been going for three straight hours, would the minister like a break and perhaps tell us how long you would like.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: If I may, and I see these two members here, if you can answer this for me, fine, if you can't, I'll understand, too. Do you, as a caucus, intend to take the complete hour?

 

MS. DIANA WHALEN: No, not at all, I have just a few little questions. In fact, I can forego them if it means you are going to take a break because I know we are waiting to get on to Justice. Would you be able to do a few minutes?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I have some wrap-up comments but - if we could stay under 20 minutes, I'll stay and we'll do it all now, including my wrap-up.

Before I begin, I would be remiss here, I have to hear from the member for Digby-Annapolis because he has told me that there is a Ph.D. thesis on the way, the connection between salt air and the growth of alders. Now we left you in mid-sentence the last time - salt air, not salt water.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park.

 

MS. WHALEN: Thank you very much. In fact, I wasn't intending to take a lot more time but a couple of issues came up just during the hour that I was listening to and one of them I wanted to raise with you because I don't get the opportunity to come and see you and don't really have the road issues that others do.

The issue around signs on highways is really of interest to me and that is because Highway No. 102 crosses my riding. Very recently, and the minister will be aware of the issue, there's a lovely theatre that is hidden away in Halifax West High School and it is called the Bella Rose Theatre, it's a 600-seat theatre and they had - in fact, I'm writing a resolution now as we sit here, about an event there, that many of the guests got lost trying to find the theatre. It was an Italian event for the 150^th Anniversary of the Unification of Italy. It was wonderful but people came in late because they have no idea where that theatre is. I was asked by one of the sponsors of the theatre, the person whose name actually - they had the naming rights to the theatre - to say why can't there be a sign, like a way-finding sign like you would see in a more rural area where there is a theatre or a special store, antiques or something like that, that you do see. Could we flag that as an issue? I don't need an answer today but I think it's really important to your students and people in your area as much as in mine, that we have a way that we can draw people's attention to where this theatre is.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I appreciate you bringing it up because although I'm not good at giving directions, I'm worse at following them. I can see that in some certain situations if you're trying to find Halifax West, you have to have your wits about you, particularly with one exit as compared to another.

 

The issue of signage is going to come up again, with possible legislation introduced within the next week or so. The key thing is that all involved - when you tell people this isn't a provincial highway, this is a road that belongs to the municipality, they look at you and in most cases they say things that I wouldn't dare repeat here - you're the minister of highways, Bill, what are you talking about? Get it fixed, right?

 

That issue of signage is going to continue to be one that we are going to have to address. I made reference earlier - I know some members have endured me talking about signs before, during the exchange we had this afternoon, and the Prince Edward Island example, but I can tell you we have to do more work, particularly when it comes to our exits and what is available there. When it comes to the 100-Series Highways and sign clutter, it's an issue for sure.

 

MS. WHALEN: You indicated the legislation coming, that the legislation wouldn't affect or wouldn't apply to the 100-Series and Highway No. 102 is really what I'm looking at because that would be how people are travelling out of the city, probably coming to Bayers Lake or that exit on the highway.

 

I'm thinking of the exits we've got that take us to Exhibition Park, for example, in your riding. I often kind of get lost in that loop as you're going out there but you have quite a number of little signs, just little white signs, "Exhibition Park". It allows you to loop back around by the back of Bayers Lake and come back in to find Exhibition Park. I need something like that.

 

I just want to leave it with you, if I could. It doesn't need to be a big, fancy sign, it doesn't need to clutter but if we had something as you approach those exits that said this is the exit for the Bella Rose Theatre, then we might have to work with the city on what they put on Lacewood to get people up to the theatre, to Halifax West.

 

I don't want to keep you here too long. I had raised the issue of school zone speed limits and you told me there's a committee that is looking into that. Any time frame about when we might hear back?

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I'm far from patient, as you probably are aware, but I'm waiting for it as soon as possible because I continue to be lobbied by people and I'd like to be able to give them, as opposed to the committee thing, I'd like to be able to say that this is the suggestion and this would be the recommendation we'd have to bring forward, of course, into legislation here. It would be something that I would like to address by the Fall, for sure.

 

MS. WHALEN: I know there are pros and cons, but I certainly know that I'm hearing more people in my area asking me about this, as well as the now lobby group forming around the Ecology Action Centre and UNSM. I think maybe it's an issue that is maturing and people may be ready for it. I've certainly been hearing about it for the last 10 years since I became a city councillor, so I wanted to let you know that it's important.

 

The muffler issue is maybe something we could perhaps speak about some time. I just wanted to add a little bit to it and that is, we were talking about motorcycles and that's usually where the attention goes. A lot of the complaints I've had, too, are about the modified mufflers that are put on cars as well and they don't muffle, it's an oxymoron to say that it's a muffler because you've really taken away the muffler, all of the bevels and so on in a muffler and you've put on something that's just cosmetic, that is maybe a big tube or whatever you call it, a big pipe, it looks exciting, but it's not doing anything. You had mentioned Civics yourself, apparently it's quite popular to fix those up and have them be cool cars with these after-sale muffler, I think is what you're calling them.

 

I've had a lot of complaints and as I mentioned to you I think it would resonate not just in the city, but given the little bit of feedback I got at having brought it in and the fact that UNSM passed a resolution, which your department would be aware of, and it would have been probably four years ago, maybe even five, that that resolution passed at UNSM, which usually gives us a green light if it's something the department wanted to look at.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: For the record I want to clarify the fact I wasn't talking about Civics being souped up or what did you call it?

 

MS. WHALEN: Some of them are, though.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I was talking about the Honda Civic and the fact that their sound system has too much base.

MS. WHALEN: Oh yes, you were talking about the sound, yes.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: Your point has been made, I thank you.

 

MS. WHALEN: I know if we look at mufflers the next thing people will ask is what we're going to do about loud music, but I'd like to start with mufflers. Thank you very much, those are all the questions I have, so if you'd like to go to a closing statement, I'm sure the chairman would ask you.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there further questions from the member for Digby-Annapolis? It's my understanding that the minister has four resolutions, Nos. 35, 45, 46 and 47.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: I would like to make my closing comments and then read the resolutions, is that the correct way?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, indeed, Mr. Minister.

 

MR. ESTABROOKS: For the record, especially with Jane Fraser and Bruce Fitzner here beside me, I'd like to, if I could, and I asked if I could have a few moments for wrap up. A few moments to me means obviously 59 minutes and 59 seconds, but I'm not going to do that.

 

I want to just take you from probably the low point of being the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal to the high point and it's no reflection on the destinations where I was in the province at the time. Let me take you to probably the most emotional visit I have ever had as a Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal when I went to Boat Harbour.

 

If you've never been to Boat Harbour, I'm not encouraging you to go, be prepared and I know the member for Pictou East knows of what I speak. The Pictou Landing in the situation that I visited at that time was one of those types of visits that I will never forget. I will never, ever forget going into that elementary school and seeing those lovely little First Nations children and realizing to myself, what's that smell, because I'm not used to it. I began to realize, so this is Boat Harbour. I go from something that was as instrumental to me as a new minister and as you can tell as I speak about it, it really sticks with me for sure.

So I can go from the low of an event such as that to tell you about the visit we had to Middle River down in Cape Breton, when we were recognizing the people who helped us out with the Meat Cove situation. That was a high because of the fact we had 50-plus men and I think there were six women there that day and we, of course, had a great meal together with lots of food. We gave each of the people present a T-shirt and I want you to know that was a great moment for me because those men and women - although the women weren't too appreciative of the fact that they wanted T-shirts, not nightgowns because they were all extra large and double XL, of course, because all these men who came up to get these T-shirts had hands on them like meat cleavers - and that's a compliment, okay - a working man's hands. They had been the crews that had been helping us out in Meat Cove.

 

The most important part of the whole issue was they put their T-shirts right on and all it said was "Gettin' er done in Meat Cove". That was a great moment for me and incidentally we did eventually get proper T-shirts back to the ladies with their proper sizes, so they didn't have to have nightgowns. We had a picture taken outside the hall and the only thing wrong was I had to take off my Bruins hat. That was a great moment and a moment I wanted to share with you as minister.

 

I want to share two other moments with you and let me tell you, people are always impressed when they hear you were in Ottawa. I had a member of my constituency association who said, my God, I hear you went to Ottawa. Yes, I went to Ottawa and as a Cabinet Minister you get sashayed around, you get taken here, you're taken there, they put you here, they put you there, it was a nice moment to go to Ottawa. There was no Bruins versus the Ottawa Senators that day, so don't worry about that. The point that I'm trying to make is that was not necessarily one of the highlights of my year, going to Ottawa. The topic was of some consequence, but going to Ottawa wasn't the highlight for me at all, it was something I had to do. Probably the highlight was I had a chance to go over to D'Arcy McGee's, the legendary Irishman who used to drink with Sir John A. Macdonald, but we won't tell stories like that out of school. It's a great pub in downtown Ottawa.

 

Let's compare Ottawa to the Beechville base in my constituency. That's a high moment for me this year. It was at that place where we introduced the five-year road plan. The five-year road plan, in this busy depot that was cleaned up because I had been in there some days after a snowstorm when I delivered Tim Hortons and doughnuts to them, it's a busy place. You could have eaten off the floors that day which meant they must have known we were coming. The men and women who were there, the members of the media were there, I know the member for Colchester North was there as the critic at the time. That was all part of what we were doing for the five-year road plan.

 

The response we received from the five-year road plan, I know some members of our caucus who have been here through this session, they say it all the time, it's a five-year road plan, it's not perfect, but it's public. That five-year road plan, as far as I am concerned, as compared to a trip to Ottawa to meet with Minister Chuck Strahl, that five-year road plan sits at the top of my list of the good things that happen each and every day for me as the minister.

 

The final comparison I want to use is this woman on my left is the women who answered all of my dumb questions from July 19^th on because Jane Fraser has been the person who has coordinated for me, for the department and for the provincial government, the convention centre plan. It's a hell of a good plan, federal election aside, it's going to be even a better plan and we're gonna get 'er done this time, but we're gonna get 'er done without T-shirts in downtown Halifax.

 

If I can go from paying compliments to Jane Fraser, I must talk about this man on my right. All I can tell you is don't get him going when he thinks he's being funny. More importantly, don't ever let on that he has any musical ability or should be a sit down comedian. Bruce Fitzner is a perfect example of how when I put the case to the staff when these tenders arrived - this is my last comment, incidentally, Mr. Chairman - as the minister, I remember saying to Mr. Fitzner and to Mr. Darrow, the deputy, in rather graphic language that would not repeat, what is the story on these bleeping tenders that keep coming in millions of dollars over? Why are we doing this?

 

It was Mr. Fitzner who took up the challenge to get the information together to go out there and point out the fact that we had to make a bold decision, it has been called a bold decision that I know has ticked some people off, but I think we understand the Road Builders Association are going to have lots of work, we'll get a better bang for our buck, we're going to make sure we get the job done, whether it's chip sealing or the mobile asphalt plant. We've gone in that direction because someone such as Bruce Fitzner, a highway engineer who has done the homework for me, as a Cabinet Minister, to be able to take that recommendation through to the Treasury Board, of which I'm a member. If you've never appeared in front of the Treasury Board, count your lucky blessings because you've got Mr. Steele and Mr. Paris and you, of course, have the Deputy Premier there and it's not a pleasant place to be sometimes. We have gotten these things done, whether it's the convention centre or the mobile asphalt plant, because of the people that I work with. I want to thank them both for that commitment to us, to me as the minister and to us as a government. It's a new challenge and it's a new day each time you go into the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal and it's a pleasure working there.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E35 stand?

 

Resolution E35 stands.

 

Resolution E45 - Resolved, that the business plan of Sydney Environmental Resources Ltd./Sydney Steel Corporation be approved.

 

Resolution E46 - Resolved, that the business plan of Nova Scotia Lands Inc. be approved.

 

Resolution E47 - Resolved that the business plan of Harbourside Commercial Park Inc. be approved.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolutions carry?

 

The resolutions are carried.

 

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister, it has been most informative. Thank you, MLAs and thank you, staff. We will take a couple of minutes break until we get set up for the Justice Minister.

[5:37 p.m. The committee recessed.]

[5:42 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Members, Justice staff, we are ready to proceed with the Subcommittee on Supply. We will begin with the minister's opening statement. The Resolution for Justice is E12 but I understand there are three others as well.

 

Resolution E12 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $302,036,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Justice, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

HON. ROSS LANDRY: That's correct. Good afternoon and before I begin, I'd just like to acknowledge Deputy Minister, Marian Tyson, to my left and the Executive Director of Finance, Greg Penny, to my right and there's a number of other staff members here but looking at the fact that we have only 42 minutes to go and my opening presentation is over an hour, so we'll get started, but we'll address that as I get going here.

 

I'm sure you've been hearing a great deal about the measures that this government has undertaken in this budget to carve out a substantial path for the province. Our government is committed to working hard to make life better for Nova Scotians. We've taken on the hard work to get our fiscal house in order so that essential programs and services continue to be available for our families, our neighbours, our grandchildren and beyond. The hard work, including finding savings within the Justice Department, have been ongoing. All programs and services at the department were reviewed very carefully and changes were made that made sense and wouldn't critically affect the balance of the justice system.

 

In doing this, every effort was made to maintain core and essential programs in courts, corrections, public safety, as well as services to legal service clients. For 2011-12, the Department of Justice budget has seen an overall increase of $12.55 million, from $289 million to $302 million. Much of the budget increase is due to assuming the Emergency Measures Office, or EMO, in its entirety. For 2011-12, the budget for this office was $7.2 million and I'll be speaking specifically to EMO's budget later. Well, actually I won't be because we won't get to that stage unless I'm asked a question.

 

The department's budget has also increased to accommodate an extra $4.5 million to cover RCMP contract pressures; $1.68 million for salary-related increases; and $1.2 million to operate the pilot Domestic Court Program. While the budget did increase, the amount of increase was reduced as a result of cost-saving measures totalling $5.45 million which will help us to live within our means over the next while. Many of the 2011-12 budget reductions will be phased in over the next three years to minimize staff and service level impact.

 

Mr. Chairman, because I can see my colleagues are waiting there impatiently, I do see that my presentation probably would take close to an hour, between an hour and a half and two hours, but because I've been on the edge for the last little while waiting with anticipation to be asked questions because I've been scolded on the floor a couple of times, inappropriately I think, to say that I was trying to avoid questions when, in fact, that was the furthest point from the truth. So in that vein, I think what I'm going to do is make my presentation brief to this point and open it up to questions and see what my colleagues have in store for me.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Richmond.

 

HON. MICHEL SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, what a breath of fresh air from the Minister of Justice. I'm glad the Minister of Finance is here. Hopefully, some of your colleagues will learn from your approach, minister, and when I did raise the issue of your estimates not making it before our committee, I certainly did hope that you would take the opportunity to clarify the fact that blame for that rested solely with the Government House Leader and not with yourself. So just for the record, at no time did I ever think that you did not want to bring your estimates forward. I suspect there were more political games at play than anything on your own part of not wanting to come and have a discussion with us on that.

 

Right to what you indicated, you indicated, if I'm not mistaken, did you say a $5.4 million budget reduction has taken place overall in your department?

 

MR. LANDRY: That's correct.

 

MR. SAMSON: Could you briefly give us a breakdown of where exactly those reductions are going to take place or, even better, do you actually have a chart or something? I think last year you had provided me with a chart of where reductions were taking place, if that makes it easier for you, if you have that type of a chart available that you could provide to us, that would be great.

 

MR. LANDRY: I don't have a chart but I'll go off this list here. Oh, I do have a chart. (Interruption) Elimination of vacant positions and reduction in general expenses, the reduction is $2.490 million; Legal Aid reductions through further management of certificates is $553,000; reduced grants, discretionary, crime prevention, restorative justice, $475,000; miscellaneous court savings, $374,000; the medical examiner services, to implement changes to current service level and procedures, $290,000; criminal intelligence services reduction in service is $200,000; eliminate assistant probation officer program, $200,000; elimination of bail supervision is $170,000; family assessment in Family Courts, $164,000; electronic supervision reduction of offenders placed on the system is $152,000; the Halifax Youth Attendance Centre, redefined program from educational to referral, includes teaching component from Offenders Program, to $150,000; and the elimination of the Justice Learning Centre, $134,000, which equals $5,352,000.

MR. SAMSON: Could you give us a copy of that list. I've been trying to write as fast as I can here but I believe I probably have missed a few. Maybe one of the Pages could make a copy of that.

 

MR. LANDRY: We'll give you this particular copy. Nothing but the best.

 

MR. SAMSON: Even better. Right off the bat, a great concern to me and I'm sure to all Nova Scotians, you're saying you are cutting $553,000 from Legal Aid, through the certificate program? How are you cutting that? Are you lowering the income cap or who qualifies or what services are being offered? How is that reduction being implemented? Are you just issuing fewer or . . .

 

MR. LANDRY: What is occurring there is that a lot of that work was contracted out and so now we're doing it in-house and using our own resources and the savings are done through that process.

 

MR. SAMSON: One of the big issues there is that a lot of times it is contracted out because of conflict. I can tell you certainly in Port Hawkesbury, for example, Kevin Patriquin, who is now a Legal Aid lawyer, did a lot of private work prior to that so any time there's now situations, I just dealt with one the other day, where someone was given a certificate because of the fact that he had previously represented the family when they were together, so I'm curious, how are you going to deal with conflicts now, if you are eliminating the certificates and saying you are doing it in-house?

 

MR. LANDRY: We're very confident in the assessment made by the executive director that it can be done. That's not saying that it is eliminated totally, I mean there will be the occasion, we just feel that the saving can be made to that degree so we'll wait and see over time whether or not that's attainable but in my understanding of the facts, I have confidence in the fact that we'll reach that goal.

 

MR. SAMSON: I have great confidence in the staff, the problem is there are not enough of them and they've got too many files. That's the main issue with Legal Aid. Are you making any changes to the income cap for who qualifies for Legal Aid?

 

MR. LANDRY: No.

 

MR. SAMSON: Okay, and I guess in that regard I'm assuming you are not increasing it either.

 

MR. LANDRY: No.

 

MR. SAMSON: Okay. You realize that your government increased 1,400 user fees, cost of living, how do you justify not increasing the cap for who qualifies for Legal Aid by the cost of living as well? Don't you think both should go together? If it's fair to increase fees, shouldn't it also be fair to increase the cap of who qualifies for Legal Aid because if inflation is going up and that's to represent the cost of inflation, should it not also go up for income cap as well?

 

MR. LANDRY: Well you know within government, the hard decisions have to be made. What I find a bit confusing sometimes, and especially - I'm kind of new to this game here and government and how it works is that is consciously listen to the Opposition and I've heard over the last two years how much you've spoken about reductions in bringing the government down and where are you going to make savings, and continuously on any decisions or recommendations to make a change or to make a reduction or do something differently, the opposite voice is being heard. I'm not getting clarity; we've made a decision and some of them aren't going to be happy and some people aren't going to be satisfied with it. This is one that we made.

 

I can think back to a wise man today, the Premier spoke today referring to him, when he talked about that decisions have to be made and costs have to be moved forward, we have to live within our means. In this case here, a tough decision was made and in a perfect world, like when he was referring today to a tax on the gas, yes, we like to make improvements there, absolutely I'd like to expand those and make it broader but you can't have it both ways and, as a government trying to live within its means, we have to think, what's the worst case scenario, where do we make these choices? How do we move forward?

 

I'd welcome from you and from your Party and from the Third Party, any recommendations of how they see certain cuts to be made. In this process we had to make some cuts. I know moving forward, in the future, we're going to have to make others and some people aren't going to be happy. From an Opposition perspective, you're going to try and make political hay out of that and at the end of the day, though, we do have to live within our means and if we're not going to take it from here, where are we going to take it from?

 

In fact, my astute colleague here, who I had the occasion to listen to and speak on many occasions, the Minister of Finance, has made that point and I couldn't agree with him more, the advice that he has given, if we're going to put something forward then what is it that we're not going to do. So in this case here, this is something we're not going to do and we're going to try and live within our means. Once we determine what the pressure point is, if we need to modify it then maybe something else will have to be given up if this is a higher priority.

 

MR. SAMSON: Am I correct here in seeing that for the grants for discretionary crime prevention and restorative justice, you've cut that by 55.4 per cent. That's over half of the budget for crime prevention that has been cut. Is that correct? Could you also name which specific programs are you referring to where these cuts are being made?

 

MR. LANDRY: First off, any cut to crime prevention is a sad day. However, you have to make decisions and you have to take some action. I'm a big proponent of crime prevention but we have to live within our means and we have to make good, wise choices with the dollars that we put in. I'm very proud of the staff and the creative work that the people within the Department of Justice are doing, from restorative justice to the Lighthouses grants to the small amounts of money that we're able to give to the communities and the groups that really made - we got good bang for our buck. It's not always putting in major dollars and saying, how are we going to reduce crime because of this. It's the little things sometimes and we're hoping to make some improvements, but we did make some good cuts.

 

MR. SAMSON: Do you have the list of programs?

 

MR. LANDRY: We can get that for you.

 

MR. SAMSON: Okay, great and if you could actually show the breakdown of what funding is in each one and what the new funding is going to be, that would be appreciated.

 

MR. LANDRY: I should comment on that. My looking back at history and some of the things, the difference between this government and previous governments is we don't have that year-end madness. We don't have just arbitrary spending by ministers to give to their ridings where it gets them favour for votes. We believe in having a balance and if you were to take a look at this Department of Justice and how we have spent crime prevention dollars, we don't look at what colour the riding is, we look at what the need is. I'm very proud of that and I'm proud of the staff because they looked at the best programs and how it falls within the rules and regulations that were laid down and I compliment them for that. This government's position is to try and do the smart thing, the right thing at the right time, at the right place.

 

MR. SAMSON: On the bail supervision, what exactly was happening for bail supervision? What program was that? Was that the ankle bracelets? Which one was that? I see you've completely eliminated that program.

 

MR. LANDRY: Yes, that program was reviewed and it was basically found ineffective where people were put on bail and were supposed to be subject to reporting to probation officers. I'm going to talk on that a little bit - I'll put my other hat on - when I was a police officer, one of the things that we used to try and get my officers to do if they had time is find out who is on bail or who is out on probation and drive by and make a visit, stop and have a talk. I think that with collaboration in policing, there are many things that we need to do in policing and the way that we look at how we deliver the service.

 

As we progress over time I'm going to talk more on these issues, but that is a good example of where an officer is out on patrol and it is 3:00 in the morning, why not make a stop by? Those are some ways that they can make that program work. I know talking to some officers, in a couple of areas they were doing things like that and how excited they were in having that type of challenge to follow up on those issues. I think that's smart policing and I compliment those officers that did it. When we look at our program, we're paying out high dollars and not getting a high return.

 

MR. SAMSON: Who were you paying the dollars to? Who was carrying out this duty?

 

MR. LANDRY: There are vacancies at this time, but there was staff - probation officers - that were doing it at one time and so we've eliminated it.

 

MR. SAMSON: So you were paying $170,000, is that what the total figure is?

 

MR. LANDRY: Yes.

 

MR. SAMSON: And that was the probation officers who were going and doing these house visits that you've talked about?

 

MR. LANDRY: Yes.

 

MR. SAMSON: Which will now fall back on the police.

 

MR. LANDRY: It could.

 

MR. SAMSON: I'm curious, these are just positions you're not replacing, is that what it is? Where are these people going?

 

MR. LANDRY: They're not going anywhere. They're not there.

 

MR. SAMSON: So they were let go or what happened to them?

 

MR. LANDRY: Absorbed.

 

MR. SAMSON: They're what?

 

MR. LANDRY: They'd be absorbed in the system overall.

 

MR. SAMSON: They were absorbed in the system, okay. Was part of their duty as well to check on people who were under house arrest?

 

MR. LANDRY: I suppose that would be part of their duty as well.

 

MR. SAMSON: Can you give me better than a suppose?

 

MR. LANDRY: Yes, that part would still be going on. It would also be subject to people who are under house arrest where the police would be also part of that process.

 

MR. SAMSON: Okay, but this bail supervision program was specifically created to have probation officers specifically dedicated to checking on people who are on probation, who are under house arrest and all of that, and who are on bail, is that not correct?

 

MR. LANDRY: That would be part of their function, yes.

 

MR. SAMSON: So that has now been eliminated. So you said it could fall to the police, who else would it fall to?

 

MR. LANDRY: It could fall by our Corrections, by our sheriffs, it could fall anywhere of how we want to design or implement systems for checks and balances. It doesn't necessarily need to fall to a probation officer.

 

MR. SAMSON: Okay, and so as a result of the fact that there is no longer individuals doing the bail supervision under that program, could you indicate, have you sent correspondence or what protocol has been put in place to inform police officers, sheriffs, deputies, or correctional officers, or whoever else you've got, that they're now responsible to carry out this duty, I guess who's doing it now and under what protocol have they been told they're now responsible to take up this responsibility?

 

MR. LANDRY: Well, first off, the police don't need a memo to say that it is their duty, that is their job. I mean if they get a call or a request from Justice or from a complaint, or from Correctional Services saying that there's an issue with a particular individual, they will deal with that. (Interruption) Just for clarity on that, it was an additional service on these individuals and was not really getting the results. So like when I think back when I was a police officer, or the officers who were working for me, and we had several people in our community who fell into that, we were aware as to who they were and appropriate policing processes are taken in place. If somebody is on house arrest, the district is notified and made aware. So if there's an issue we deal with it. Nothing has changed in the past, it's just that they had additional people on that issue.

 

MR. SAMSON: Is it safe to say that those were primarily targeting metro?

 

MR. LANDRY: A good percentage of them probably.

 

MR. SAMSON: And, you know, we can debate this later and I have a tremendous amount of respect for the minister and for his time in the Pictou/New Glasgow Detachments but, with all due respect, suggesting that HRM police should be aware of everyone who is out on bail, house arrests, and is out on any other recognizance, I think is really unrealistic to suggest that the police would know each individual and where they live and how to keep tabs on them. That's why this program was brought in, is the fact that there wasn't enough resources to do so and there were significant complaints about people not really respecting their house arrest or the probation they were under and that's why this was brought in and it's of concern that it has been eliminated but we'll deal with that on another day, you have confirmed they are gone.

One of the other reductions here is that you've put a $6,000 cap on family assessments in Family Court. Could you explain a bit the rationale there, because you've reduced that budget by almost 45 per cent?

 

MR. LANDRY: As I understand the particulars on that, each individual involved in that process can get up to $6,000 but we're not expanding extra funds beyond $6,000.

 

MR. SAMSON: Could you give us a rough number of how many people were asking for funding above $6,000? Is that exactly where the saving is coming from, just from the $6,000 up, you've been able to eliminate $365,000?

 

MR. LANDRY: Yes, and so your question is?

 

MR. SAMSON: Who determined the $6,000 cap and, even more importantly, could you give us numbers of how many, let's say for the last fiscal year, families would have exceeded the $6,000 cap in the family assessments that were done through Family Court?

 

MR. LANDRY: We'll get you that information.

 

MR. SAMSON: You'll give me that information, okay, because I'm not familiar with that but I can tell you it causes me a tremendous amount of concern because I know my colleague here, the member for Halifax Clayton Park, has raised the issue of the counselling available to victims of crime and how there has been an effort to increase some of that counselling funds. Now to hear that there's a limit being placed on the assessments in Family Court, we'll certainly be looking for more information on that. I also see where you've . . .

 

MR. LANDRY: Can I answer? You made a statement there, may I comment?

 

MR. SAMSON: Sure.

 

MR. LANDRY: On the individuals who are asking for counselling and so on, I'm not aware of individuals who are not getting their maximum benefit, if there are some who aren't actually collecting that. I understand the issue and I know that your colleague next to you is passionate about that topic and I respect that, but my understanding is that people are getting the care that they ask for and that they're not exceeding that. If they are, then in special cases that can't be looked at, but I need specific examples of the point you're trying to make.

 

MR. SAMSON: I'm sure, hopefully, if we can continue proceeding here, my colleague will have the opportunity to raise that. It's not a question of people using the maximum, it's a question of people asking for more than the maximum, I think is what my colleague will point out to you because of the limits that are under that.

 

Here I see a reduction of almost $100,000 in electronic supervision. Is that the ankle bracelets?

MR. LANDRY: That is correct.

 

MR. SAMSON: What is the justification behind removing that? Is it that police officers are going to take care of this as well now instead of the ankle bracelets?

 

MR. LANDRY: Got them locked up. (Laughter)

 

MR. SAMSON: Sure you do.

 

MR. LANDRY: I really like the ankle bracelets, just so you know. It's part of the tool box of the probation officer to monitor in the flow. Nothing has changed from that. They're just less without that and that is one of those things, I feel that it would be better to add more bracelets than it is to build jails and that's why this government made the sound business decision to build a single facility with the dual capacity with the ability for that facility to be expanded should we need it in the future. One of the things that we would like to do as a government is reduce the need for correctional facilities and have the expansion of something like the bracelets, but you have to make some tough decisions sometimes and this is one here that we feel the probation officers can handle at this time. Part of the risk measure of where we're at with the individual when we look at the types of crimes and offences that they've made that we will take that risk. Of course, when you're dealing with crime, you like to be as safe as you can, but once again, you've got to live within your means.

 

MR. SAMSON: I'm wondering if the minister could indicate how many less ankle bracelets - if I can use that term - will be in circulation with a reduction of $991,000.

 

MR. LANDRY: We were roughly around 50 and we're cutting it back to 35 and trying to take the more severe cases to make sure that they're on those bracelets. It's kind of like an insurance policy. We actually put the bracelets in there to add a little bit extra security. If we had eliminated them all, we could still make the system work like it did in the past, but it's nice to have the 35. If there is a need in the future and our finances allow us or we look to take money from some other area to put it in there if we see that's a priority, we would make that type of decision. At this time, the decision we made is that we reduce it and use those savings to live within our means.

 

MR. SAMSON: You've also eliminated two full-time equivalent positions that were doing the electronic supervision. Is that correct?

 

MR. LANDRY: That's correct.

 

MR. SAMSON: How many staff remain now, doing electronic supervision?

 

MR. LANDRY: Just the regular probation officers would do that. The bracelet itself is monitored based on the contract to use the bracelet.

 

MR. SAMSON: That's what I thought. That's why I was surprised that you have two full-time equivalents being eliminated from this program. That's why I didn't understand. Are those probation officers you've eliminated?

 

MR. LANDRY: Yes, but they were vacant positions so we've eliminated them.

 

MR. SAMSON: Vacant positions so you eliminated them. So there really weren't two probation officers doing electronic supervision. That's why I'm confused. It's a company that does this so why are you saying there were two vacant positions for probation officers when it's a company contracted to carry out the service?

 

MR. LANDRY: I'm going to make speculation and I believe I'm probably right. When you brought in the bracelets, the positions were there to deal with the service and as the fact that you brought in the bracelets reduced the need for the service, so the positions probably became vacant and as a result, were eliminated.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Just as a time check, there are 15 minutes remaining.

 

MR. SAMSON: The elimination of the Justice Learning Centre, what is the Justice Learning Centre?

 

MR. LANDRY: That's the Truro facility and they were providing services (Interruption) It's in Halifax - well, the head office is in Halifax but they operate out of Truro. There's one position in Truro but the main office operates out of Halifax.

 

MR. SAMSON: And what is the Justice Learning Centre?

 

MR. LANDRY: They're trainers and facilitators for service delivery.

 

MR. SAMSON: And who do they train?

 

MR. LANDRY: They train correction officers, police and sheriffs.

 

MR. SAMSON: And who is going to do this training now?

 

MR. LANDRY: The division is.

 

MR. SAMSON: What do you mean by the division?

 

MR. LANDRY: The sheriff's department itself, corrections itself, or if they need public servants, the Public Service Commission. If there's particular training or courses, we can look at where we could bring that in and how we could do it differently. Just for the record, these individuals coordinated the facilitation of the training rather than deliver the training. There are still contractors out there who deliver that so we'll try to do all that administration part in-house.

 

MR. SAMSON: So this is a reduction taking place here but you will still have the Justice Learning Centre, it's just these are reductions you're implementing for that service?

 

MR. LANDRY: Yes.

 

MR. SAMSON: The changes to the Medical Examiner's Office, what's the basis of those changes? You have a reduction of $290,000 - what does $290,000 mean? Or you're cutting $290,000, is that it?

 

MR. LANDRY: In place of doing an actual physical examination in each and every case, they will do a case assessment and evaluate whether or not the further step is required. In that process they will save that amount of money or more on that basic restructuring. I like to use the term that we're trying to work smarter and we're being more practical in the way that we're approaching the issues, so not each and every death requires further examination, and that's what the assessment is doing.

 

MR. SAMSON: So this is an assessment that's done by the chief medical examiner?

 

MR. LANDRY: Yes.

 

MR. SAMSON: So he'll determine whether a death is suspicious and needs a full examination or whether it doesn't?

 

MR. LANDRY: Yes, he or she will do that.

 

MR. SAMSON: So it's safe to say that you expect him to do fewer full examinations in order to save the money that's being requested to be saved here?

 

MR. LANDRY: Yes, and that gets to my point about working smarter. There's not a need to do each and every case, and there are certain criteria and standards that I'm sure he'll apply and apply in their assessment to make those determinations. It will be standardized.

 

MR. SAMSON: Just on that, before I pass over a few minutes to my colleague, there was an effort underway to establish a new Medical Examiner's Office here in the province. I'm curious, is there anything in the budget to continue supporting that initiative?

 

MR. LANDRY: Before I answer that question, I just want to finish the last one. One of the other things that the medical examiner will be doing is fewer Sunday examinations. So they'll hold them over for the 24 hours to the Monday, and that's a way of making a cost saving.

 

On your next question dealing with whether or not the medical examiner is looking into expanded service, I think that's something that's very important to examine and to look at the other options and how we can expand that service in partnership with other provinces or even within this province, how to make it more efficient, how to improve cost delivery, and is there a way for us to develop the expertise that we can sell service and get a revenue stream. So those potentials are there.

 

MR. SAMSON: Did I hear correctly that you said the chief medical examiner won't do autopsies on Sundays to save money?

 

MR. LANDRY: No, you heard that we are looking to reduce the number that we do on Sundays. For example, if there was a homicide or something that was of exceptional circumstances, they will do them on a Sunday, but there are a lot of cases that they don't do on Sundays. I think back to my previous career, that it was not uncommon back when I was a young officer going to examinations, when we would do the post-mortem examinations and we'd say, well, hold it off for the day, and then go in on the Monday or whatever, or even the next day, whatever the schedule allowed, to reduce costs.

 

MR. SAMSON: I'm still showing 10 minutes there, what are you showing?

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: There's 10 minutes. We need a couple of minutes for the resolutions but that's flexible, I'm sure.

 

MR. SAMSON: Oh, I don't think we're too worried about that. I'm not quite sure why not doing it on Sunday is different than not doing it on Saturday, I don't know if there's a quick explanation of that.

 

MR. LANDRY: Well, I guess one could cut both days. The decision we made was to cut the Sunday and make the saving. It's all overtime, no matter how you look at it. The average person works on the basis of a 40-hour week, 37.5 hours in a government environment, and they're looking for ways to structure, how they can reduce costs and still not take away from the quality of service. I compliment the Medical Examiner's Officer for that process and the decision making.

 

MR. SAMSON: As you can see, Mr. Chairman, I could go on for quite some time but there's only 10 minutes left. I appreciate the minister's brief answers; I do commend him for that. Again, some of your colleagues could certainly learn from that, as well, the ones sitting around the table. Let me pass on to my colleague, the member for Halifax Clayton Park, who I know has lots of questions but will use the remainder of the time. Thank you.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park.

MS. DIANA WHALEN: I wanted to thank you very much for the opportunity. Again, it was very kind of you to cut your opening statement short because I realize you had a lot that you could tell us about what's going on in the department, but we appreciate a minute to ask a few questions.

 

I actually wanted to go on this list of cuts and ask you about the Halifax Youth Attendance Centre because my understanding is that centre was set up as a result of the Nunn Commission. A lot of resources went into that Nunn Commission and a lot of good lessons learned.

 

I would like to know what you mean by sort of redefining the program. I believe it has been a godsend for a lot of schools, certainly, and parents and families so you don't send kids home on these long-term suspensions with nowhere to go, nobody to watch them. This provided a learning environment for those kids.

 

I'd love to know if you could tell me why a 20 per cent cut in the budget, and it says it's not going to be an educational institution anymore, is that right?

 

MR. LANDRY: That's right. I'm going to use a couple of catchphrases: you've got to work smarter; no change, no future. What has happened here is that with that program, we're spending that kind of money on 10 to 12 people and getting limited results. What we're doing now is we're cutting the day program and we're also expanding the program, and it has access to about 150 youth rather than focusing on those 10 or 12 youth. We're trying to expand the exposure, to touch base and consult and dialogue with a broader base of young people.

 

MS. WHALEN: In what kind of way, could I ask you? I mean if they're not coming to school in this program, what are you going to do to touch them?

 

MR. LANDRY: What's being done, and I think that this is a much smarter way to use the resources, is an assessment being made on the youth. Then looking at what referral services do we already have: we've got IWK, we've got Mental Health, and we have social services. As a province we're already paying for many, many services and what we need to do is have that collaboration where all our stakeholders are looking and seeing how we can utilize the expertise in the areas that we have, rather than creating individual parts.

 

I've got to be careful how I make this next statement: not everyone can be saved, but everyone should be given an opportunity to have a chance to grow and reach their full potential. What I feel out of this process here, by reaching more youth, is we can give them the opportunity to reach their full potential. If we stick with 10 or 12, I think it's a poor use of our dollars.

 

MS. WHALEN: In this case you're saving 20 per cent of the budget, so you're still spending 80 per cent, but you're no longer going to keep those kids on a full-time basis, is that right? I mean an assessment program just takes a short while, then you're going to refer them out to other agencies, so you've effectively decimated the intent of that program, which was to be a replacement for school, it was an alternate school.

 

MR. LANDRY: We're going to phase it out over three years, and I'm going to repeat my comment: no change, no future. The thing is, if we continue to say what results are being given, what are we getting out of this - I don't know if it's appropriate for me to say but I'll use the discussion this week on the reading program - if we can expand the opportunity and make sure that more have access and that we can monitor over a longer period of time, we're already paying - and I had the pleasure many times to hear you speak with passion on the health care issue and bring out examples about doing things a little differently or utilizing that service - we have those individuals there, so we need to utilize them and get our youth in the right program.

 

A lot of youth don't need somebody taking them to school by the hand every day. Maybe it is a chemical imbalance or maybe it's an emotional situation where they need the support there, so we need to get them with the experts that know how to deal with those situations.

 

MS. WHALEN: "No change, no future" is a great little slogan as well, but at the same time, this was a new program and I think it was working well. The Nunn Commission, it was only, what, three years ago, maybe - and Ms. Tyson can remember exactly - no more than four years ago that we went through that and it was extensive and all the experts came forward.

 

There's a problem, even if you're saying it's only 12 or so young people, those 12 young people in their schools could cause an awful lot of disruption, a lot of lack of learning for the other kids who are at the schools where they were, so the impact of giving them a good opportunity to learn in another location could save an enormous amount of lack of learning or inefficiencies in the schools and trouble and difficulty for the principals and teachers with the students that aren't conforming.

 

These are students that went beyond students at risk, these were students who were already deeply in trouble - in trouble with the law, on long-term suspensions. The schools aren't able to cope with them and families can't earn a living if they have children out on long-term suspensions, then they're at your house doing God knows what.

 

I think any of us as parents can understand that that would be a tremendous worry and burden on a family. So I just make the point it's not just a dozen kids, it's the impact they will have if they're not in an appropriate place.

 

MR. LANDRY: You know, I couldn't argue with anything you said but what I will say is that you've got to make choices and you've got to make decisions. I'm not going to be presumptuous to say that I don't have belief in the fact that if a case analysis is done on an individual child and then they are directed in the avenues in which to get that support, I'm also a believer that you've got to take some responsibility yourself. Part of this system here, if we provide them - you can take a horse to water, as the cliché goes, and direct the child in the right place but if we're taking children out of the system because they can't conform and they're going to be disruptive in that system, then that won't change. If the young person is disruptive, causing problems, then we need to find the reason, what's the underlying cause?

 

MS. WHALEN: I think that should be done.

 

MR. LANDRY: So if you're saying we need to put them in an institution, we don't believe in locking young people up and . . .

 

MS. WHALEN: It's not a lock-up, it was a school.

 

MR. LANDRY: . . . so we want to have a different method in which to do that.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister and member, the time has expired for the Liberal caucus.

 

We have completed the full 40 hours here in the Red Room and we will now go into the resolutions that have to be presented.

 

Shall Resolution E12 stand?

 

Resolution E12 stands.

 

Resolution E20 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $522,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the FOIPOP Review Office, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

Resolution E22 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $2,166,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Human Rights Commission, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

Resolution E31- Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $18,924,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Public Prosecution Service, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolutions carry?

 

The resolutions are carried.

 

MR. LANDRY: I just want to say thank you to my colleagues for giving me an opportunity to come here today. I'm very pleased.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: I request a motion to refer these resolutions to the Committee of the Whole House on Supply.

 

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

 

The motion is carried.

 

I also request a motion to refer the remainder of the resolutions not called in subcommittee to the Committee of the Whole House on Supply.

 

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

 

The motion is carried.

 

Thank you very much. We now stand adjourned.

 

[The subcommittee adjourned at 6:26 p.m.]