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HALIFAX, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 11, 2007
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. We will begin with the Estimates of the Department of Justice.
Resolution E13 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $128,205,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Justice, pursuant to the Estimate.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'd like to welcome the Minister of Justice here tonight. We'll call on the minister for his opening statements.
HON. MURRAY SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, welcome to the committee this evening. I am pleased to be here tonight and I would like, just before I begin, to introduce some of the senior staff who are here with me tonight. From the Department of Justice is Executive Director of Finance and Administration Clarence Guest on my right; Mr. Bob Purcell, Director of Policy Planning and Research on my left; as well from the Public Prosecution Service we have Martin Herschorn who is Director of Public Prosecutions, and Paul McNeil, Director of Business Affairs for the Public Prosecution Service. There are also several other members of staff from the department who are here to assist in the event that there are questions around the various responsibilities that they have within the department.
I am pleased to be here today to discuss the budget and the initiatives of the Department of Justice. I'd like to start by offering you an overview of our activities directed at ensuring the excellence in the administration of justice as well as our efforts to improve the safety and security of Nova Scotia communities.
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The Department of Justice is committed to the fair and effective administration of justice and to excellence and service to the people of the Province of Nova Scotia. To accomplish this mandate the department provides services through seven divisions: Policing and Victim Services, Court Services, Correctional Services, Legal Services, Human Resources, Information Management, and Finance and Administration.
I'm also minister responsible for a variety of other agencies providing important services to Nova Scotians. These include the Human Rights Commission, an independent government agency charged with administering Nova Scotia's Human Rights Act. Under the authority of the Act, the commission focuses on two core business functions: resolving complaints of discrimination, and public education and outreach. As members of this House are aware Mayann Francis, CEO of the commission was recently appointed as Nova Scotia's Lieutenant Governor. Michael Noonan has been acting CEO and Director of the Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission since Ms. Francis' departure. We are currently well in the process of seeking a permanent replacement for Ms. Francis.
As well, I am Minister responsible for the Workers' Compensation Appeals Tribunal, an independent agency that operates separately from the Workers' Compensation Board. The tribunal hears appeals on the final decisions of hearing officers with the board. It is the final level of appeal within the Workers' Compensation system. As I mentioned earlier, the department effectively manages daily operations of the justice system through a number of core business areas.
Our policing and victim services programs are directed at improving public safety and security. Through this division we provide oversight, governance, and advice to police, private security services, and firearms licence holders. For example, our policing services division acts in an advisory role to all police services and management contracts with the RCMP and First Nations policing. We strengthen policing initiatives through the development of standards and training in partnership with stakeholders.
My department also provides assistance to victims of crime. We work with justice partners and the community to develop programs that address the needs of crime victims. Direct services for victims are provided through four core programs: the Provincial Victim Services Program, the Criminal Injury Counselling Program, the Victim Impact Statement Program, and the Child Victim/Witness Program.
Our Court Services section provides civil law, criminal law, and family court services. These services include court administration and management, small claims, bankruptcy law adjudication, security and transport of prisoners to and from court, restorative justice for diverting offences involving youth, and justice of the peace.
The department operates approximately 35 court houses and court administration is managed through 14 justice centres across the province. The division also manages the
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Maintenance Enforcement Program with eight offices across the Province of Nova Scotia. The Correctional Services division provides community-based corrections including adult diversion measures, court information, offender supervision, and reintegration programs. Custody-based corrections involve facility operations and reintegration programs and planning.
The department operates five adult correctional facilities, one youth correctional facility in Waterville and a small satellite youth detention facility for short-term accommodation in Sydney. Twenty-two community corrections offices are also operated across the province. Overall there are approximately 10,000 court-ordered admissions to correctional services on an annual basis.
Legal Services at the department represents the Crown and its agencies before courts and tribunals in support of alternative dispute resolution. Solicitor services include legal advice to the Crown and its agencies, corporate counsel services, drafting regulations and legislation, law reform and legislation support, and client education.
Nova Scotia's medical examiner services also falls under the jurisdiction of my department. Nova Scotia's Chief Medical Examiner is Dr. Matthew Bowes and his office conducts investigations into all deaths due to violence, culpable negligence, as well as sudden unexplained deaths.
The Department of Justice also coordinates the administration of the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act. Bob Doherty, our freedom of information coordinator retired at the end of March and Ann Guinchard is acting FOIPOP coordinator in his absence.
The priorities for 2007-08 are as follows: we've established our priorities under four strategic goals: a justice system that is properly administered and cost effective, that ensures there is public confidence in the justice system, that people do feel safe and secure, and that people make constructive choices. Over the next year we will continue to implement activities directed at helping us achieve these goals.
Crime and its effects are a growing concern across Canada and Nova Scotia. Our communities and the residents are the foundation of our province and every citizen in a peaceful, just and democratic society deserves to feel safe and secure. That is why the safety and security of our citizens will continue to be a high priority for this government over the coming year. This is a complex issue and we are working on initiatives that address both law enforcement and, of course, the root causes of crime. A major government public safety initiative is providing funding for the hiring of 250 new police officers over four years starting this Spring.
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This year in this budget the government committed $7.5 million to hire the first 80 of these new officers. Just last Friday here in Halifax I attended Halifax Regional Police swearing in of 15 of these new officers. Every community in Nova Scotia will receive at least one new officer by the Spring of 2008. A strategic deployment committee has been established to plan for the allocation of the remaining officers. Priority issues in considering distribution of the new officers include activities to address organized crime, street crime, child exploitation, illegal drugs, and school safety.
An additional $685,000 is being provided to police as part of our $6 million commitment to Criminal Intelligence Service Nova Scotia. This funding will improve coordination among the RCMP and municipal police. Illegal drugs are one example of areas that are to be targeted. The province is now working with law enforcement and other key partners to create a comprehensive drug strategy tailored to meet the needs of Nova Scotians. The strategy is focusing on prevention, enforcement, reduction of harm, and treatment.
We are supporting this plan with the introduction of legislation that puts strict controls in place while introducing new penalties. The Act to combat the production and use of illegal drugs will allow government to regulate the storage, transportation, distribution, and sale of ingredients, materials, and equipment used in the production and use of illegal drugs. The bill requires people to notify authorities if they become aware of the loss or theft of certain ingredients, materials, or equipment.
Also this year the department created a Public Safety Investigation Unit under the Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods Act. Under this Act, complaints from community members can result in court orders to close locations that are home to prostitution, illegal drugs, illegal alcohol, or gaming. Citizens can also register their concerns about buildings that are unusually fortified. The director of this new unit has been hired and we're in the process of hiring the three investigative officers and we expect the unit to be fully operational by late Spring or early summer. The new investigative unit will target criminal activities including the sale of illegal drugs and alcohol, prostitution and gambling as I earlier said. The unit will follow up on complaints and work with community members on their concerns and this has been welcomed by police as a valuable tool in their efforts to fight crime in this province.
Nova Scotia's medical examiner services provides investigation into all deaths due to violence, undue means, culpable negligence and unexpected or unexplained deaths throughout the province. The office provides written documentation including cause and manner of death and makes report available to next of kin and appropriate agencies. The office of the Chief Medical Examiner is staffed by a group of professionals bound by an ethical code to perform their duties with strict adherence to confidentiality, accuracy, integrity, and without bias.
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The medical examiner system, under the direction of Chief Medical Examiner, is managed from a provincial office located in Halifax. The office administers the complete Province of Nova Scotia and has a permanent staff of two coordinators of investigation, an administrative officer, a health records technician, and a secretary. Medical examiner services plays an important role both in the province's justice system and the lives of families going through a time of loss and mourning. This year government is investing approximately $365,000 in the province's medical examiner services to support the hiring of a deputy chief medical examiner and other support staff.
This year the Department of Justice is offering cash rewards of up to $50,000 for information leading to the arrest and conviction of individuals responsible for specified major unsolved crimes. Under this program a major unsolved crime is defined as an unsolved homicide, found unidentified human remains where there's suspicious circumstances, and missing persons cases where there's suspicious circumstances as well. Starting last October police agencies across the province were invited to refer cases to the province's Rewards for Major Unsolved Crimes Program. The case will remain in the program for as long as requested by the police agency.
The Rewards for Major Unsolved Crimes Program is another tool law enforcement can use in their efforts to solve crimes. Any member of the public with information surrounding one of the cases in the program can call a toll free line. An individual coming forward with information will be expected to provide their name and contact information. In addition, this person may also be called to testify in court. All calls to the Rewards for Major Unsolved Crimes Program will be traced and recorded. I hope this program will encourage individuals when they have pertinent information to come forward. Through this program we hope to help ease some of the uncertainty and grief faced by victims' families and friends.
The Department of Justice maintains a Web site containing the details of cases included in the program. Currently there are 19 cases listed in this program. The department is always willing to accept new cases and encourage police agencies from across the province to bring these cases to our attention. There's also, for the major unsolved crime information system, a toll free number as well that can be accessed from throughout the province.
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Another initiative welcomed by police over the past year is the Electronic Supervision Program. We have undertaken this project in partnership with the Public Prosecution Service, Correctional Services, municipal police, and the RCMP to enhance conditional sentence monitoring and enforcement. Nova Scotia is the leader in this area, it is the first jurisdiction to use global positioning technology to track offenders serving sentences in the community.
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One of the goals of our government is to build a stronger, safer Nova Scotia, a province where the law, security and consequences are taken very seriously. The electronic supervision of offenders is an important step towards the larger goal of enhancing public safety in our province. With this new sentencing option we now have approximately 30 offenders in the community being monitored with this new technology. We hope to grow this number to 100. We expect this to be used more and more as an effective tool to monitor offenders who are required to serve all or part of their sentence in the community.
An area of concern for many Nova Scotians has been youth crime, highlighted by the death of Theresa McEvoy. On November 10, 2004, my department announced a public inquiry to look into the events which preceded her death and testimony was completed in June. On December 5, 2006 government received the final report of inquiry from Commissioner Merlin Nunn. Commissioner Nunn and his lead council, Michael Messenger, took on an enormous task and they produced an excellent report containing recommendations of how we can further improve our youth justice system. We've already taken steps to enhance these services. I'd like to thank Mr. Nunn and Mr. Messenger for their dedication to this process and for their wonderful work. I'd also like to add that other jurisdictions across Canada are supportive of the ideas of the Nunn Commission Report. I have had a number of my ministerial colleagues from across the country tell me that they have found the report to be highly informative and helpful in addressing the problems facing youth at risk.
Relating to the Nunn Report, last year $450,000 was invested to develop an attendance centre to provide improved response to youth who are in conflict with the law. This year $1.3 million will support the new attendance centre and bail supervision program in the Halifax Regional Municipality. The attendance centre is temporarily located in St. Patrick's High School on Quinpool Road. It is to be coordinated by the Department of Justice and will provide such services as: teachers to provide academic instruction to high-risk, high-needs youth; community supervision services; social workers; counsellors; mental health services; parent support groups; community service work opportunities; job search and resume preparation programming; and programs including anger management, cognitive skills and substance abuse.
We have seen the excellent progress that can be made with youth who receive services at the Waterville youth facility and look forward to expanding these services in the community at the attendance centre. At the same time, we, and many others continue to have concerns about some of the elements of the Youth Criminal Justice Act. I will continue to press the federal government for amendments that will deal more effectively for the small number of out-of-control youth who cannot be adequately served under the current Act.
The activities I have just described are all critical to government's efforts to enhance the safety of our communities. However, I also firmly believe that activities that threaten our collective well-being are not solely the responsibility of government and law enforcement. Crime and its effects are a growing concern across Canada and Nova Scotia. We are
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increasingly dismayed by reports of street crime, particularly the behaviour of a small number of out-of-control youth.
At the same time, communities are also experiencing the negative impact of illegal drugs, especially in schools and the resulting instances of property crimes and theft. Indeed, in many cases, fighting the criminal element takes a coordinated effort, uniting many voices and incorporating the ideas of both experts and lay people. That is why, in May of last year, I announced the creation of a minister's task force on safer streets and communities.
The goal of the task force is to look at community programs, government services, legislation and policing best practices across Nova Scotia and in other jurisdictions, to identify and promote programs and actions that are making a positive impact in communities. The task force will identify ways to support communities in their efforts to make improvements and to address situations that have a negative impact on our neighbourhoods. The task force is made up of 25 individuals, all of whom have volunteered their time to this very important task and effort.
I am impressed by the overwhelming knowledge, experience and enthusiasm of those who applied for the membership. It is so encouraging to see these many people interested in building stronger communities for the benefit of their fellow Nova Scotians.
I'd like to thank all these individuals for the hard work they have put into this project and for their continued work on behalf of all Nova Scotians. Because of the large response, regional subcommittees will also be created to support the task force. Late last week the task force concluded a series of meetings that had been held across this province - in total, 40-plus regional meetings as well as the focus groups.
The task force will now work to study what they have learned from the people of Nova Scotia. They will take this input, along with the review of successful programs and legislation in other jurisdictions to consider how we can complement and enhance our existing programs. The end result will be a provincial crime prevention strategy.
Another priority for the year will be continued improvement of the infrastructure of the justice system. Justice is one of the largest tenants in government, occupying highly-specialized space. Major infrastructure initiatives include continued planning and construction of the Lunenburg County Justice Centre and the Yarmouth Justice Centre. I know that community members in Lunenburg and Yarmouth are keen participants in the development of these facilities and are looking forward to the new level of service that will be provided at these centres.
For the first time in these communities, all justice-related services will be under one roof in modern facilities. We look forward to renovating the New Glasgow Justice Centre
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and we're developing proposals to address aging correctional facilities in northern Nova Scotia.
The security of our facilities is critical to the safety of both staff and clients. We commenced a review of court facilities across the province to examine our security policies and procedures. While we routinely assess our security practices, this review will provide a thorough analysis of our procedures to ensure we are taking all necessary steps to protect the people in our facilities. Consultation is a major element of the project and we have sought the input of the judiciary, lawyers, staff, public, police and facility users.
All Nova Scotia should have access to safe and timely legal services. My department is committed to improving our ability to provide services in French with a number of initiatives underway in this area. French services, including support for French trials, continue to be available for all criminal cases. If a French-speaking person wants to access court services in French and no French-speaking staff are present, court staff will work with the French-speaking staff in other locations to provide service in French.
New initiatives in this area include the hiring of a departmental French services coordinator. A coordinator began in August and will work closely with our existing French Language Services Committee. We are also starting French language training for several staff members this Fall. All of these activities are directed at ensuring Nova Scotians are able to access services in both official languages. We will continue to work to expand French Language Services in our department and in areas where we feel it could be of benefit.
We are also working to ensure Nova Scotians have access to legal services when they need them, regardless of their financial situation. This year's budget includes an additional $475,000 for legal aid services. These new funds will help hundreds more Nova Scotians gain access to legal services. New funding will also ensure speedier trials and resolution of issues in the courts. This investment is another demonstration of our commitment to legal aid in this province. The level of provincial funding continues to grow, quickly surpassing the federal contribution. At one time, legal aid was cost-shared by the federal and provincial governments. Now, Nova Scotia provides far more funding for this vital service. I continue to press my federal counterparts to restore 50/50 funding which would have a huge impact on our ability to provide legal aid to vulnerable Nova Scotians.
Another critical services program provided to Nova Scotians is the Maintenance Enforcement Program. This program began in 1996 to address the difficulties experienced by spouses and children who were not receiving their court-ordered maintenance payments. Currently, the Maintenance Enforcement Program in Nova Scotia has a 78 per cent collection rate. This rate compares favourably with other Canadian jurisdictions. We have also made improvements to enhance services to our clients. This includes the development of a reciprocal unit so that all reciprocal cases out of province will be managed by the central
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unit. We are in the final stages of transferring the cases in from other offices across the province.
We are also in contact with other Canadian jurisdictions and have received updates on our files. In addition, we are reviewing all the files we are enforcing for other jurisdictions as we transfer them into this unit. Having this function handled centrally instead of spread out across the province should improve service for our clients. We have also added more staff to work on enforcing these orders and are conducting a review of all files to remove those which are no longer active, allowing us to dedicate our resources more effectively.
The Maintenance Enforcement Program has a significant impact on the lives of Nova Scotians involved in the maintenance orders. We have made a number of program and legislative improvements since it was introduced 10 years ago and we continue to work toward ensuring we have the best system possible. We are also undertaking the evaluation of another critical process for Nova Scotians. The Domestic Violence Intervention Act, which has been in force since April 2003, allows victims to apply for a 30-day emergency protection order. We are conducting an evaluation of the Act and its related processes, gauging its effectiveness in protecting victims of domestic violence.
The Nova Scotia Public Prosecution Service works hard for the people of this province, representing the public interest in criminal proceedings. Let me remind you that Nova Scotia's Public Prosecution Service was established in 1990 under the Public Prosecutions Act as the first independent prosecution service in Canada. It employs 81 Crown Attorneys and has a total staff of 151 in 19 offices across the province. Our Crown handles about 40,000 Criminal Code charges every year. Last year these included more than 30 murders and attempted murders, more than 300 robberies, 300 sexual assaults, about 1,300 break-and-enters and about 3,300 thefts. It prosecuted these cases on a budget of approximately $15 million.
In addition to prosecuting all Criminal Code offences in Nova Scotia, the Public Prosecution Service is responsible for prosecuting cases involving violations of provincial Statutes. Last year the Public Prosecution Service prosecuted bout 4,500 such cases. PPS also appeals decisions made by the courts where the service determines the court has made an error in law. Last year the Public Prosecution Service was involved in 39 appeals. Since its establishment over 15 years ago, it has prosecuted cases that have garnered national attention and controversy to be sure.
As a service, the Public Prosecution Service delivers quality front-line prosecution services and continues to sharpen its skills and expertise in major and complex cases. With regard to our hard-working team of Crown Attorneys, I remind you that February 2000 saw a labour relations milestone. An agreement was reached with the Nova Scotia Crown Attorneys Association on a salary-setting mechanism. With that agreement in place, the government and the Crown Attorneys Association are free to negotiate annual salary
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increases. Continuing education for full-time and per diem Crown Attorneys as well as support staff remain a priority in order to enhance the level of expertise within the PPS and the resulting quality of prosecution services.
More than $150,000 was spent on education and training during the fiscal year. Specifically, the Public Prosecution Service funded the attendance of Crown Attorneys at the Federation of Law Societies National Criminal Law Program; funded the Crown Attorney annual conference and the Public Prosecution Service support staff annual seminar; funded the participation of several Crown Attorneys at the Ontario Crown Attorneys Summer School Program, a valuable professional development opportunity made available to the PPS through the kind co-operation of the Ontario Ministry of the Attorney General. As well, it funded an advocacy training program for new and per diem Crown Attorneys. It continues to train PPS staff in the use of the prosecution and information composite system; continues to provide training to all Crown Attorneys on the youth criminal justice matters at both Fall and Spring conferences. It continued additional training as required on new PPS policies, including those related to the findings of the Nunn Commission, early findings of guilt, calling the evidence regarding responsible persons and transfer orders. It provided training to Crown Attorneys on the government's family allowance initiative. It supported the requirements of the Education Development Committee to ensure that the Public Prosecution staff received required training.
The PPS also participates at the national level. The Director of Public Prosecutions continues to meet regularly with heads of prosecutions from jurisdictions across Canada to share information and to collaborate on common initiatives.
Let me now turn to the challenges facing Nova Scotia's Public Prosecution Service. Major cases require extensive work by Crown Attorneys preparing a case for court. There are often complex Charter challenges to the proceedings. There are usually dozens of witnesses to be interviewed and prepared for the experience of giving evidence in court. There are always expert witness reports to be studied and digested and more and more often DNA evidence is introduced in court requiring extensive preparation by Crown counsel.
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Major cases are complex and high profile. Public safety and the public perception of the justice system are influenced by the outcome of these cases. The Public Prosecution Service makes it a practice to assign at least two Crown Attorneys to each murder case, at least one being a senior Crown Attorney. This is essential in order to professionally respond to the demands of these difficult cases. This past year PPS was involved in providing the Nunn Commission of Inquiry with testimony specifically surrounding the release of a young man who was responsible for the car crash that killed Theresa McEvoy. The PPS also provided the commission with testimony on youth crime and the prosecution of young offenders in Nova Scotia generally.
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Several recommendations of the Nunn Commission focused on the operation of the Public Prosecution Service. One of these is the recommendation to hire two additional Crown Attorneys to be assigned to Youth Court in Halifax and in Sydney. This process is well underway and the additional Crown Attorneys should be in place within the next four to six weeks. Youth criminal justice has been and will remain an important focus for the Public Prosecution Service. PPS will continue to work with Justice partners to ensure that the youth criminal justice matters are dealt with effectively and efficiently.
The PPS's early resolution practice in the Halifax area has experienced success. A senior Crown Attorney is assigned to review files as they come in, to flag those which look as though they may be easily resolved or even discontinued. A letter is placed in the file from the Crown outlining an acceptable sentence in the event of a guilty plea. The Crown's position is made known to the accused through the disclosure process and may encourage an early resolution.
Government initiatives to combat organized crime are expected to result in an increase in the number of major prosecutions. The service must have the resources to respond to the demands of these major prosecutions. Some major or specialized prosecutions are handled by the members of the service's Special Prosecutions Section. Such prosecutions include complex fraud cases, historical sexual assaults, cyber crime cases, child pornography cases, provincial regulatory offences and Aboriginal law cases.
The Nova Scotia Public Prosecution Service has a Crown Attorney dedicated exclusively to the prosecution of provincial regulatory offences. This initiative was designed to enhance the Public Prosecution Service's expertise in provincial regulatory prosecutions. This Crown Attorney is concentrating initially on occupational health and safety offences and serves as an in-house resource for other Nova Scotia Crown Attorneys involved in occupational health and safety and other regulatory offence prosecutions.
The decision to assign a Crown Attorney exclusively to regulatory offence prosecutions was a joint resolve of the Public Prosecution Service and the Department of Environment and Labour. Each organization wanted to enhance the way these cases are handled, both at the investigation and prosecution stages. The Crown Attorneys of the Special Prosecutions Section do not have regular court assignments and thus have the time necessary to devote to such prosecutions.
The permanent staff complement of the Special Prosecutions Section entails a Chief Crown Attorney and eight Crown Attorneys. This complement can handle only some of the major or specialized prosecutions conducted throughout each year. When such cases are conducted by Crown Attorneys other than those in the Special Prosecutions Section, they cannot also be responding to the demands of a regular court responsibility. This difficulty necessitates backfilling the Crown Attorney and the regular court schedules for days, weeks,
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months or even years, as has happened in the past. Therefore, the service must use outside counsel hired on a per diem or term employment basis to backfill, in response to major cases.
With regard to day to day operations and the need, historically, for regular per diem assistance, the Halifax region has experienced success in dramatically reducing the need for per diem Crowns. This has been done with an innovative approach to court scheduling and has resulted in significant cost savings in Halifax. The service's policy of assigning at least two Crown Attorneys to all murder cases and the anticipated increase in the number of major cases, as well as additional Crown Attorneys to handle youth criminal justice matters, will increase the service's staffing costs in fiscal 2007 and 2008.
The service continues to handle cases involving alleged illegal hunting and logging by Aboriginal persons. Litigation of Aboriginal rights involves the presentation of extensive historical, pedagogical and archeological evidence. Presentation of such evidence involves calling numerous expert witnesses. The Crown must pay the professional fees of these witnesses, as well as their costs while testifying.
To properly respond to the demands of these cases, further research is required. The service, in coordination with other agencies of the provincial government, will be called upon to fund the research. The conduct of the research necessitates engaging experts at considerable cost. It also reminds that federal legislation, in response to the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the U.S., grants additional powers to the police, identifies new offences and establishes new court procedures. Thus, the service could be called upon to provide pre-charge advice to the police in relation to counter-terrorism investigations, liase with other provincial prosecution services, the federal prosecution service and international prosecutors on counter-terrorism investigations and prosecutions, provide advice to the Minister of Justice on this matter and participate in the conduct of lengthy prosecutions or complex challenges to the new legislative provisions can be anticipated.
To address these additional demands the service has assigned one senior Crown Attorney to all these additional responsibilities. This Crown Attorney attends training sessions and interprovincial meetings to coordinate counter-terrorism efforts.
Finally, the province's Justice of the Peace system operates 24 hours a day, seven days a week and continues to demand Crown Attorneys be on duty after hours and on weekends.
As you can see, there are many, many challenges facing the Nova Scotia Public Prosecution Service this year and in the coming years but I am confident the Public Prosecution Service will be able to meet these challenges and the continuing contribution to public safety made by the Public Prosecution Service can never be taken for granted or understated.
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As all members would know, I was appointed Minister responsible for Military Relations last October. Coincidentally, it was almost immediately following a presentation to Cabinet about the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces Nova Scotia and its military operations in Afghanistan. The presentation was given by Rear Admiral Dean McFadden, the Senior Naval Officer on the Atlantic Coast and the Commander of Joint Task Force Atlantic, which comprises all land, sea and air elements in Atlantic Canada. Admiral McFadden was accompanied by the heads of the Army and Air Force, Brigadier General Richard Parsons, Commander of the Land Force Atlantic Area, and Colonel D.A. Neil, Commander of Maritime Air Component Atlantic.
My appointment came out of the realization that the Department of National Defence constitutes not just a major economic driver in our province but is also a major social contributor. The military is the largest single employer in the province, at 14,500 military, civilian and reservist employees, which represented 3.5 per cent of province's economy in 2005, at over $1 billion a year. That's larger than the real domestic product of the agriculture, forestry and fishing industries combined.
If you combine the civilian and military members of the Canadian Armed Forces in Nova Scotia with their primary family members, they total an estimated 40,000 people located in 18 urban and rural locations throughout the province. The military has been an integral part of Nova Scotia since 1749. They have, and continue to make, significant economic contributions to the province and richly contribute to the social fabric as well. For example, you only have to look at the profound contributions to the Swissair search and rescue operations in 1998 and the Navy-led recovery operations for the 229 passengers who were killed in that terrible accident, or the incredible support which Canadian Forces in Nova Scotia gave to the 2,400 Kosovo refugees who arrived in Nova Scotia in 1999 to escape the tyranny of Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic.
We should never take for granted the many people who have benefitted from military search and rescue operations by the Navy, Army and Air Force or the many reservists who volunteered to assist when the ice storms paralyzed southern Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick. The impact of the military goes far beyond these operations. When Canadian Forces personnel retire, they generally leave the military while they are still young, spending their pension cheques in Nova Scotia, volunteering in our communities and bringing a vast array of professional skills and experiences that are of value to our workforce. For example, medical professionals who have served in search and rescue efforts or in combat situations like Afghanistan, have acquired skills and experiences in trauma care that would be hard to gain in the quiet and safe confines of our province. These are the skills which are very transferable, important and welcome in this province.
In recognition that the military contributes greatly to the social and economic fabric of our province, we are working to help make Nova Scotia the best place in Canada for the military to live, work and do business and raise families. We are doing this in many ways.
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On November 8th the province conducted a Military Appreciation Rally to recognize the many contributions which our military and its personnel contribute to the people of this province and to boost the morale of our troops. Several hundred public servants, students and Nova Scotians joined in the tribute to military members.
On November 23rd, the law protecting reservists' jobs and education standing was introduced and passed in the Legislature. The law was introduced by the NDP and passed with the co-operation and collaboration of the Opposition, all within 17 days. As a consequence of the law, we currently have a team of representatives from several departments - Education, Labour, Economic Development, Justice, and Intergovernmental Affairs - who are working in earnest to prepare regulations that will bring further specificity to the law to ensure that it functions according to its intent. Once the regulations have been created, we'll move to have the law proclaimed.
Nova Scotia is the first province in Canada to have introduced such legislation, with four other provinces - Manitoba, Saskatchewan, New Brunswick and B.C. - currently following our lead. Our initiative has also been noticed and appreciated by the Canadian Forces Liaison Council, the agency at National Defence Headquarters that is responsible for negotiating military policies with employers who have staff members in the reserves. As a consequence, in early June I will attend a special ceremony in Ottawa during which this province will be presented with a special award in recognition of our efforts to protect the employment and student enrolment of reservists who volunteered to serve Canada in deployments such as Afghanistan.
The work that the government is doing to build on its positive relations with the military in Nova Scotia is supported by an interdepartmental committee called the Defence Forum, a group of public servants from 14 relevant departments that are contributing to this effort. At present a great deal of the focus of the Defence Forum is on building relationships with key military stakeholders and learning from them. It is our belief that only through understanding the Canadian military's policy, their issues and needs, that we can have a meaningful relationship with them and work together to encourage social and economic progress in our province.
Another important focus of the forum is its military and family support initiative. This initiative seeks to better understand the unique needs of military personnel and their families and how we might better serve them, especially in times of conflict. I should mention that this is not a case of our government trying to duplicate or take on the job of the federal government but, rather, is an attempt to ensure, as best we can that the provincial services we offer respond to the needs and the values of our military related public.
One of the functions of the forum is to share the knowledge that is acquiring to all forum members across the provincial government. I think of it as a process of cross-pollination, a process that leads to more informed decision making within departments and
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that helps us develop the big picture and a corporate approach to our dealings with the military. A good example of this cross-pollination occurred recently when the defence forum invited the executive director of the military family resource centre to talk to the province's interdepartmental community development policy advisory group about how the situation in Afghanistan is affecting families and communities throughout Canada. As a consequence, the community development policy advisory group now shares a common and much deeper appreciation for the issues and challenges faced by military personnel and their families.
One thing I should mention is the Afghan situation has brought a great deal of focus and immediacy to our work. The situation is very fluid and things are moving very quickly. At this moment we estimate there are somewhere between 400 and 600 Nova Scotians deployed to Afghanistan. This is not a static measure, we know that these numbers will change as Nova Scotians are deployed and returned until the end of Canada's natal commitment in 2009. As a result we need to understand the long-term implications of this situation for Nova Scotia and we need the military and military families to understand that we support them in their military mission.
One way we can do this is to demonstrate our support to the family members who remain in Nova Scotia during the deployment of military members. The Chief of Staff of Joint Task Force Atlantic recently reiterated this point in his comment to us saying, support to military families is as critical to the success of our mission as the preparation and training of our personnel. Our understanding of how all of this will work is evolving as we learn our way into this but, I can tell you this, we have been successful in creating a strong provincial team that works co-operatively on issues. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all those departments and their staff who are contributing to this effort. We've established strong working relationships with external stakeholders and where relevant and appropriate we're playing a mass-making role connecting our stakeholders and individual departments or programs.
[6:45 p.m.]
In doing this we are way ahead of the rest of Canada in taking initiative to ensure that military members and their families don't fall through the cracks. I am pleased and proud to say that when it comes to military relations Nova Scotia is a leader in Canada and has consequently differentiated itself from the competition. We are the first province to have a Minister of Military Relations and a designated high level contact point for the military. We are the first province of Canada to have a cross-departmental military focused provincial body, we are the first province in Canada to protect reservists when they volunteer to serve our country and we are the first province in Canada to proactively look at how the military and their families are supported in public service in times of conflict. This is with a view towards making improvements within our jurisdiction and resources.
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As a result of the leadership and commitment we're demonstrating we're getting very favourable reaction from the military. Military recognizes it now has a conduit to the Nova Scotia Government through me and the Defence Forum, and is coming to us with both their issues and potential opportunities. They're also promoting Nova Scotia's approach to doing business with them across Canada. The appointment of a minister responsible, structure of a defence forum, and the creation of reservist legislation are things they value and they want to have emulated in other provinces. Finally, the military will be honouring the province, as I said earlier, on June 7th for work that's being done for reservists in this province.
In closing I appreciate this opportunity to view some of the activities of my department to present the highlights of this year's budget. I, along with the department staff, look forward to an active year as we work with our partners on ensuring Nova Scotians can be confident in the safety and security of their communities. I'd like to close as well by thanking all of the staff of the department. Right across this province close to 1,000 staff in the department are hard at work ensuring the smooth administration of justice and improving the safety of our communities. Each person has an important role to play in making sure that we provide high quality services. I have been very impressed and I would say we're blessed with the dedication and enthusiasm I've witnessed since becoming the Minister of the Department of Justice.
I'd also like to take the opportunity to thank Department of Justice former Deputy Minister Doug Keefe for his hard work and dedication through his 28 years with the department. Many would know Doug retired in early March and on many occasions he had a lot of advice for me. Speaking on behalf of the department I wish him all the best in his retirement. I look forward to the members' questions and comments and welcome the opportunity to share information once again on our very important programs and services. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Leader of the Opposition.
MR. DARRELL DEXTER: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I guess I'll begin with Military Relations. The first thing I think I have to say is that I just received word that it looks like we lost another two soldiers in Afghanistan. It is a very sobering and sad fact of life these days, so many families across this country have been affected by the losses in Afghanistan.
I wanted to say I welcome Mr. Dunn sitting at the table. I'm sure the minister knows that Tim Dunn and I go back 30 years or thereabouts, hard to believe, and once sat across the desk from each other at the Department of National Defence Office of Information in Esquimalt, when we were both employed working for a fellow by the name of Commander Lorrie, and we had the opportunity to just speak about that, before we started this evening.
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I must say that I did not know that the reservist legislation was going to end up as a cause for an award. This is very positive news and I was pleased to see the number of provinces that have decided to follow the lead of Nova Scotia with respect to this legislation. It is something that I am personally very proud of and I'm very proud of the province taking the initiative to go forward with this.
We discussed this earlier today, actually, with respect to when this legislation will be actually proclaimed. I think you said that you looked forward to that taking place and you said seven or eight days, is that what I was to understand?
MR. SCOTT: That was what the Premier said, within seven or eight days. You'd asked the question . . .
MR. DEXTER: I didn't mean to confuse you with the Premier, but seven or eight days, he was right. We're talking in the next very short while we'll have the proclamation and the regulations?
MR. SCOTT: The issue of Military Relations to me has developed into something a lot more than I had even anticipated when the Premier asked me to take on the role. You are right, Mr. Dexter, the issue around that legislation that you put forward and that was supported by the government and the Liberal Party certainly is something we all supported and we want to see it enacted as soon as possible but it led us into an area where it took some very in-depth consultation and discussions with many folks, those in labour obviously, employers, educational providers, the military itself.
So the regulations, there are two departments that are heavily involved in the regulations; one is the Department of Labour and one is the Department of Education. My understanding is that within the last few days the regulations for Labour will probably come before the Department of Education ones because there are some impacts that we did not anticipate in regard to whether it is community colleges or, in fact, universities, there are a whole lot of issues.
Staff have been working very, very hard and I know that it is something that we all wanted to see happen sooner or later. Staff have been working very, very hard to try to get these issues dealt with as soon as possible. I know Tim and other staff have been very much involved on a daily basis, trying to make it happen as soon as possible.
The Premier made that commitment today of the proclamation within, I think he said seven or eight days, so I'm sure that will take place.
MR. DEXTER: Thank you. One of the other things that has been a bit of - as you would know, I've introduced, I think now, three resolutions with respect to this matter and that is the reconstituting of the Halifax Rifles. You probably know that General Amy has
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been to the House many, many times with respect to the reconstitution of the Halifax Rifles as a Reserve Unit. I'm just wondering if the department or if you have had a look at this and whether or not you've had any conversations with your colleagues on the federal level about the reconstitution of this unit and if something stands in the way, if you know what it is.
MR. SCOTT: My understanding is that, I guess nationally with the military, the national level has decided not to do that this time. I know on many occasions I've heard you bring that forward to the Legislature. You know it's certainly something we can bring to their attention but, as you would appreciate, it's not something we have control over, but my understanding is that it's not something that they have decided they want to do at this time.
MR. DEXTER: Well, that's unfortunate. Maybe when you're in Ottawa and receiving that award, you could make another pitch at the same time and tell them that this is a good idea as well. Actually, for me, it's more a matter of pride in that particular unit. I think it's a symbol of the province's distinguished units and I just encourage you not to give up the fight on the Halifax Rifles.
MR. SCOTT: Absolutely, and as I was just reminded, the Fusiliers, of which Corporal Stannix was a member, is the one who I guess at this time plays an active role here in this area, but certainly we can take that up with our federal counterparts.
MR. DEXTER: That was really all I was going to ask with respect to that part of your responsibilities - at least for now.
MR. SCOTT: Thank you for mentioning that. Tim Dunn, who is the advisor for Military Relations, is doing a fantastic job and has a lot of experience and background. He has done a great job. Thank you, Tim.
MR. TIM DUNN: My pleasure, sir.
MR. DEXTER: I think you were in the Golan for awhile, is that not right?
MR. DUNN: Well, Golan was part of my area of responsibility, I was in Egypt, which looked after the Egypt, Israel and the Golan Heights.
MR. DEXTER: I remember that because that's where you came back from, I think, when I first met you.
MR. DUNN: That's right, yes.
MR. DEXTER: I'll just move on to talk about safer communities and neighbourhoods which is a topic that I know you and I are both very concerned with. I know that my former colleague, Kevin Deveaux, you will remember that we introduced, in fact, a safer
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communities and neighbourhood bill. I think we were a little ahead of the government in the introduction of that bill maybe, I don't remember the actual time frame, but I remember that was the case. I remember that there was a great deal in common with the two bills when they came forward. So I was pleased to see that they did go forward.
My last recollection though was that after the director of the Public Safety Investigation Unit was hired that you had said at that time, I believe it was in February, that this unit was going to be operational in April. I assume from what you said at the beginning that that date has now been pushed back, has it?
MR. SCOTT: Actually the bill was proclaimed on January 7th. We have hired a director and a manager and they have just finished the hiring of the three investigators. Renovations are underway now in their location, just finished from my understanding, and there was an update that the actual space for their location is being renovated. I know they have been actively dialoguing with another jurisdiction. In fact, I was in Saskatchewan last year and met with the minister, met with their group, and learned of the great works being done there and we would expect it would be the same here. The area they're going to be housed in has just finished being renovated. They've all been hired and they are in the process now of their introduction for the work we will be expecting them to do.
MR. DEXTER: That will be the operational staff, will it, the director, the manager, and the three investigators, that's what you expect the staffing complement to be?
MR. SCOTT: Yes, at this point.
MR. DEXTER: And that, of course, leads me directly to the next question which is whether or not there has been any analysis done of the number of properties that will make up the scope of the work? Do you have any idea how this staffing complement will meet the need that you anticipate?
MR. SCOTT: As I mentioned earlier about being in Saskatchewan last year and meeting with the minister and the leader of their team, and talked, there are a lot of similarities because, you know, the size of Saskatchewan, the fact that there are two main urban areas, the fact that the population is quite similar to Nova Scotia. So we, more or less, based our team and our concept on theirs. They have had great success. The size of their team really has worked well and is working well there. We basically mirrored theirs and then we will do an assessment as we go along to see whether, in fact, it is adequate, whether we need more. That would be, obviously, for another budget time.
I know in Saskatchewan, their uptake the first year compared to the second year was quite dramatic. The request they had for assistance increased quite dramatically the second year. So this will be a learning process for us, as well, and I know they have been in contact,
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they have had discussions, so we will be seeing over the next months how they respond to the complaints and concerns they have across the province and see where we go from there.
MR. DEXTER: It would be expected, I guess, that once the unit becomes better understood by the public and once they realize that resource exists, that there will be a greater degree of uptake by the public in terms of requests for assistance.
MR. SCOTT: In Saskatchewan, I'm pretty impressed. They have a nice brochure they put out. They do advertise within the public. They put out information. They have Web sites. They take the opportunity to ensure the public is well aware of who they are, what they do, what they are able to do and how they can be accessed and where they can go. I'm expecting we will be doing the same here.
[7:00 p.m.]
MR. DEXTER: I will move on from that to legal aid, then. I know that you had talked about additional allocation, I think of some $490,000 or something of that measure, into the legal aid budget. Of course, part of this relates to the McEvoy recommendations as well because access to justice and case management and moving them through the system requires that counsel be available. Are you comfortable that the currently laid budget is sufficient to be able to meet the challenges in this regard?
MR. SCOTT: The current complement, or the current funding, I guess, for legal aid is something that I heard right across this country. We met in Newfoundland and Labrador and all the federal, provincial and territorial ministers met. In fact, at the end of our deliberations, after two days, it was agreed that the number one priority for all provincial and the territorial ministers was to encourage Ottawa to restore the 50-50 funding that we once knew across this country. I believe at this point, what is the formula? Less than 20 per cent is paid by the federal government at this time, which we don't think is acceptable. As we continue to put more people in the system, police officers, for example, as we continue to put more prosecutors in the system, it only makes sense that we are going to require additional services in regard to legal advice and opinion and legal support, in fact in legal aid.
In the last two budgets, we have increased the legal aid budget by $2 million. I'm reminded that was all provincial money. So $2 million over the last two years increase. Is it ever enough? It's what we feel at this time is the appropriate amount but, again, we continue to encourage the federal government to restore that funding that we once knew that would ensure that legal aid enhancement continues.
MR. DEXTER: People may not think about this but ensuring that there is an appropriate level of defence counsel for people who are charged is integral to the operation of the system of justice. I know a lot of the legal aid lawyers, I know how hard they work and what their caseloads are like. They are pretty phenomenal and, of course, for the right to
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counsel to be real, the resources have to exist in order to be able to provide not just someone who is there in court with you on the day but somebody who has the adequate opportunity to prepare and for those who are charged with crimes, they face the weight of the state. So they have a right to a fair defence.
I know that at law school, in the Charter, you were entitled to a lawyer, which I always thought was an interesting guarantee when in many cases the resources that were really there on the legal aid side seemed to be insufficient to adequately provide for that.
I guess I asked you if you felt that this was an adequate resource for this area but let me just follow up what you said; have you had discussions with the Minister of Justice, the federal minister, in regard to this?
MR. SCOTT: Yes, I have, and again, we continue to impress upon them the need to restore that funding. As I said earlier, collectively as provincial ministers, we identified that as our top priority. The federal minister is aware of that, they know that and we're waiting to see what their response will be.
I just want to make a comment that you mentioned about the availability of the proper advice or legal aid. I know back in my old policing days, I always felt the system worked a lot smoother when that service was available, I mean it just makes sense that when that service is available to someone who is before the law, before the courts, that they have that opportunity to have legal advice within a timely manner. I mean it made the system work so much smoother.
I do appreciate it and I've committed to the Bar Society here, at a meeting with them, and as well to other folks, that we, as a province, will continue to work with our colleagues across the country to again try to get that funding restored, which will go a long way to helping us, enhancing the legal aid system here in Nova Scotia.
MR. DEXTER: Absolutely, there is nothing more frustrating, I think, for a lawyer than to have an unrepresented person on the other side of - whether it is a civil case or a criminal case, for that matter.
I guess I had forgotten this so I'll correct the oversight now; I wanted to thank you for sending your departmental staff over to discuss both the Provincial Court Act and the omnibus bill with respect to the various changes before the House. It was informative to understand why the changes were being made. You will remember when the bill before the House came forward, I had a number of questions. I just will say for the record that I am disappointed that the decision to go forward with an amalgamation of the Family Court and the Provincial Court was the only option you were left with.
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I asked at the time whether or not it wasn't better to look to the unified Family Court model that exists here now and operates, to be able to deal with all of those matters in one court. I understand that the federal government has just made it clear that they are not prepared to move forward any further on those initiatives. Is that your understanding?
MR. SCOTT: We would prefer the unified court system across the province as well. In fact that was another issue that we raised at our provincial-territorial-federal meetings. The message we got from Ottawa, the signal we're getting, is that the federal government is not - at least at this time - interested in allocating those additional positions, which we believe would offer equal service across the province.
You know better than anyone, when it comes to the division of courts, where someone goes to court for one type of a hearing or type of procedure and had to go to a different court, for example, for child custody, this doesn't make any sense. We were trying within our own abilities here, with our own monies and our own resources, to try to make the system a bit more streamlined and try to see if there was a way that we could, particularly when it comes to the issue of case processing times, to try to help in that aspect. It is not easy.
Again, the message we're getting from the federal government is that we're not expecting that any time soon.
MR. DEXTER: Well, the reason why it surprised me is because the provincial courts have always been kind of the workhorse of the justice system and there have been considerable delays, as was identified by Justice Nunn. I realize you're layering in more judges but you are also layering in many, many more cases. My concern was that was going to actually increase wait times rather than reducing them.
MR. SCOTT: It wasn't the intent but we appreciate your comments. That was not the intent of the department. The intent to move in that way was to help streamline and if there were opportunities for one court that may have some time where another court didn't, to have judges in both courts that could address both issues. The intent was to try to streamline it and to make processing times faster.
MR. DEXTER: I'm sorry. What time are we at now?
MR. CHAIRMAN: It's 7:08 p.m. and you have 40 minutes.
MR. DEXTER: Thank you. I'm going to touch on a few things, these are kind of short snappers from my perspective. I noticed in the estimates there was a line item under Program Expenses, under Policing and Victim Services for gun control. This would be Page 15.6 if you have your Estimates Book there. I noticed that in 2005-06 and 2006-07, in both cases, the estimates under this line were nil and in 2005-06 $20,000 and then $103,000. I'm just curious about the line item and it's again estimated at zero.
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MR. SCOTT: The licensing side of the federal gun issue is administered by the province but the province gets reimbursed for the service. In other words the federal government pays us to administer their licensing program. What that's showing there is that we're actually making money on the program.
MR. DEXTER: That's the in-money is it?
MR. SCOTT: Yes.
MR. DEXTER: So the out-money would be identified somewhere else in some other line.
MR. SCOTT: You're asking where it's actually showing the expenditure?
MR. DEXTER: Yes. It's a small item and it seemed funny to me that . . .
MR. SCOTT: Apparently, it would be right here. Page 15.10.
MR. DEXTER: Okay.
MR. SCOTT: We are expecting next year that the expenditures should be about $910,000 and we will recover the whole thing. Where you're showing that extra amount that's actually where the province has recovered more.
MR. DEXTER: Okay, that's good then. This is another item. You might recall that I wrote to you back in February, I believe it was the 13th, about the situation facing provincial civil constables - a lot of people know them as process servers. At the time, and I made note of this, when you wrote me back you said, I have asked senior management to consider the subject matter raised in your letter and provide me with recommendations. I didn't really know what that meant so perhaps do you - looking at the fact that other provinces do deem them as peace officers.
MR. SCOTT: The process servers - and correct me if I'm wrong - for all intents and purposes of their serving of documents are peace officers. If you look at the Criminal Code, the identification of peace officer is there. They are certainly, along with many others, wardens and I forget what else under the definition of a peace officer, will be included as well. Part of their condition of their appointment by the province we would not want to have anyone believe that there was any intent for individuals to be carrying any type of prohibited weapon or, at least that's the way it is now that the regulations and everything are set up. That is certainly the intent of the department. I actually support that and I share that with those folks that I think, at least now, there is a danger in just authorizing everyone to carry a prohibited weapon because if you think about it, the liability of it, of what could happen.
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The other thing I want to mention is that police officers who have a continuing training program, they are trained in everything from the mildest type of situation, the verbal contact, and there are escalating levels of force that are used up to and including, obviously lethal force, but in that mix is the use of OC spray. I guess what I was indicating in the letter back to you was, I understand what the situation is today but however, I have asked the department, we should take a look at the whole issue around this. It's obviously something that came to light that we weren't aware of before. We weren't even aware that these individuals were carrying this type of prohibited weapon.
So what I have asked the department is let's get the information on this, let's look at other jurisdictions. Let's look at the whole issue of process servers in the province, which I will say that they do a lot of work for the province as well as a lot of lawyers' offices. So they provide a great service. But let's look at the whole issue of what they do, what we want as far as our mandate in regard to them being issued a licence and let's look at other areas across the country and let's decide whether we want to maintain the status quo or maybe we want to look at some other options. That's why, in the response I sent back to you, was that I have asked staff to have a look at this and at the end of the day we may decide to change it, we may not.
MR. DEXTER: Well, I will look forward to hearing back from you again and whatever advice you receive on it, I just make the point. I'm sure you are aware of this because you would have had contact with many process servers, I'm sure, in your former capacity. But process servers, again, are an integral part of the system that we have, the way our courts work. They are often sent out to serve documents on people who are not very pleased to receive them and sometimes make their best efforts not to receive them. So they serve a very important function. I think they deserve to know that their positions are respected and people understand that this is an important component of the way our system works. There might be better systems but this is the way our system works and they form part of the function of them.
[7:15 p.m.]
MR. SCOTT: Again, going back to my own experience, I know process servers in the area where I came from, if they were going, for example, to a home where they expected there could be a problem, or even they weren't sure, they would always contact, or in a lot of cases, I guess, they would contact the local police in the jurisdiction and the police would accompany them, which we welcomed. A lot of times they would call and maybe it wasn't a good time, we were busy, we could put it off to the next evening or afternoon or whatever, but the police appreciated that because obviously you can avoid a situation that may unnecessarily happen that there is no need to happen.
Again, the issue that brought you to the letter and the issue around the OC spray, it is a prohibited weapon. I think we have to be very careful and cautious of who we authorize
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to carry that and in what situations and do we want, because basically someone can come into the Department of Justice - I think it's $25 to make an application and if they don't have a criminal record, can be authorized to be a process server. So I just think we have to be very careful of how we proceed with this and make sure we do the right thing, that's all.
MR. DEXTER: I wanted to touch on another thing that I had raised with you before and that is the whole issue of mental health courts. As you may know, and I have certainly mentioned this before, I had the opportunity to go to Newfoundland and Labrador and have a look at the system that they have put in place there. I can tell you that I talked with the, I guess he was the director of the program, along with the social worker. He was explaining to me that the prosecution service is one of their biggest boosters with respect to this particular program and that their success rate has been very high. I think they had one case of recidivism since they began the program. So you have to understand that because the program is designed to be effective, that the intake workers are very careful about who comes into the program and making sure that they're suitable for the program in the first place and, therefore, they truly are a diversion out of the regular system. It saves not only the courts a heck of a lot of work but it also serves the individual which is the ultimate goal of the system in the first place.
MR. SCOTT: I appreciate that and I know you've brought that to my attention on several occasions. I know you have a real concern about some things we've seen over the last year and you mentioned the word diversion, and that's exactly what we're working towards. I'm sure you appreciate, as well, I mean whatever we do, whatever changes there are, it requires a buy-in from all stakeholders. The suggestion is that there are some problems and to fix it is probably the easy part, it's how do we get to where we want to be to ensure that people, and I've seen them in my own career where people will land in court only because there was really nowhere else for them to go.
Everybody is frustrated because they're not quite sure where they fit, they don't fit here, they don't fit there. So we'll get them into court and, hopefully, the court can order some sort of an assessment or get them somewhere. Then lots of times, as we've seen, it has not happened but you mentioned diversion because the diversion process is exactly what - there's a cross-departmental effort underway right now in Health, Community Services and Justice, and that's exactly what we're working towards, is the diversion process. I know in the House when you asked the question, it's hard to get to where you want to be, but I can tell you that folks are working very, very hard to try to resolve this and the diversion process is exactly where we are.
MR. DEXTER: When I spoke to them they said this was a great process because it had the weight of the court behind it and, you know, these people don't want to go to jail. What they want is access to services and they want to have productive lives. What this does is bring to bear all of those resources to allow that to happen. Anyway, I'm pleased to hear that there is this initiative underway. There are programs in other parts - I was in
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Newfoundland and Labrador, but I understand Ontario, New Brunswick and several jurisdictions in the U.S. also have mental health courts as well.
Before I hand this over to my colleague, the member for Halifax Citadel, I wanted to ask just briefly about the crystal methamphetamine issue and, as you know, we had put forward a number of proposed initiatives to deal with that threat, and I know that there have been some moves made by the police forces and your government since we raised the issue. I wonder if you could tell me what the status of the presence and street use of crystal meth in Nova Scotia is at this point in time? Do you have some idea of that?
MR. SCOTT: And that's another issue that certainly we have been putting a lot of effort into in regard to behind the scenes because you're right, the bill that will be passed talks about the issue of crystal meth and that's what the intent was. Again, in fact, this past week there were several, not only department folks but as well stakeholders from outside, the police and in other areas, who are at the present time developing a drug strategy that will be a provincial drug strategy, that we're also hoping to use some of the information from the task force as well, to help implement that.
The reports I've received from law enforcement is that very small amounts have been reported of crystal meth in this province. In fact, I'm only aware of one occasion and I'm not sure if there have been any other but, you know, it's still something I know law enforcement keeps a very close eye on and try to get as much information as they can to ensure that if it does become a problem, how they respond to it, but everyone is looking forward to the provincial drug strategy being implemented because it talks about not only, as you know, the enforcement but about the prevention, harm reduction, and other issues around that. So it's, again, another cross-department issue that the Department of Justice obviously is a part of, but other departments are very much involved in it as well.
MR. DEXTER: Did you say there was only one instance. Are you referring to trafficking or manufacturing?
MR. SCOTT: One seizure actually where it was homemade, and that's the only one I'm aware of that has been reported to us and usually they keep us pretty up-to-date on those issues. So only one that I'm aware of. I'm not making light of it either by saying it's only one and that I'm not worried about it. I'm just saying we are trying to make sure that we get as much information as it becomes available to ensure that as we move along we are aware of what is happening in the province, to make sure that we are prepared for it.
MR. DEXTER: Could you describe for me if you can any of the specific initiatives that will be included in the provincial drug strategy?
MR. SCOTT: When it comes to the actual strategy itself, Health and Community Services will have a large role to play as well, and they'll have certain sections of the drug
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strategy that they will be empowered to deal with. I can mainly talk about the enforcement part which you are well aware of all the issues we are doing in regard to enforcement, which are all the things we've already talked about here and I've talked about in my opening statements.
One thing I am a big believer in is the fact that the department or law enforcement don't have all the answers and that's why we reached out with a task force and that's why this provincial drug strategy - I didn't want to see it developed before we had an opportunity - the task force is travelling across Nova Scotia and apparently in my mind they have gathered a lot of information. They have gone into focus groups in different communities and they are gathering information as well that they will present back, that we're hoping will form part of that drug strategy.
There are components, enforcement certainly is a big part of it, but there are other things as well, obviously, there is education in schools. So the drug strategy, I believe, will be a wide-ranging policy that will be something we will be looking at over the next while.
MR. DEXTER: When can we expect to see something in the way of a description or policy statement in this regard?
MR. SCOTT: There are ongoing consultations, plus it is my understanding that the task force is going to report back and they will have their final report for me sometime in May. We are hoping to have the draft provincial drug strategy sometime in the summer.
MR. DEXTER: Finally, are there other street drugs out there that you see as being problematic? Is there anything your department sees on the rise that, as legislators, we ought to be concerned with?
MR. SCOTT: I think it is fair to say that in our years growing up the softer drugs were probably the drug of choice at the time and that has changed a lot. There is a lot of harder drugs on the street, absolutely a lot of crack not only in the city but in the smaller areas, that is evident from information we're receiving. That is why we are putting additional money into Criminal Intelligence Nova Scotia because those folks are tasked with gathering all of that information for the police.
Again, when it comes to enforcement, there are two things I think we have to really put a lot of effort into and that's obviously enforcement, but as well, education in schools. There is already deployment of these additional police officers. We are encouraging the recipients of those initial positions to look at school liaison officers, that we can have police back in the schools again to talk to youth and encourage them in regard to making the right choices.
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I guess you asked the question about different types of drugs, there are certainly across this province - and I have heard it and the Premier has heard a lot - in communities about the level of drugs, and that's something that we have indicated quite strongly to those who again are receiving funded positions paid for by the province, to put that emphasis on curbing that drug issue.
MR. DEXTER: Mr. Chairman, I said that was my last question but unfortunately, I'm going to go back on that. I have one more and this actually arises out of something you said earlier, you talked about counter-terrorism advice and the establishment of a position to give pre-charge advice with respect to counter-terrorism. Has your department been called upon, in fact, to give such pre-charge advice?
MR. SCOTT: I think it is fair to say that the Public Prosecution Service is called upon a lot for a lot of different types of advice and obviously, the advice they give is confidential advice. All I can say is on a regular basis the Public Prosecution Service is called upon to provide advice to law enforcement across the province on all types of issues - and all confidential advice.
MR. DEXTER: I didn't ask if you were giving advice on specific matters but just in general whether or not you have been called upon to give advice in that category.
MR. SCOTT: It is in the range or realm of advice that is given in concert, I guess, with a lot of issues.
MR. DEXTER: I'm wiser, but no better informed. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Citadel. The time is 7:28 p.m.
MR. LEONARD PREYRA: Mr. Chairman, yes, I am the member for Halifax Citadel, I'm also the Youth Critic. I have a number of questions relating to that area. In particular, I wanted to look at the McEvoy inquiry and its implications for youth criminal justice. I want to ask the minister, what has been done more specifically on specific recommendations relating to the McEvoy inquiry?
As the minister knows, the McEvoy inquiry made a number of recommendations which the government adopted almost immediately, much to the applause of the community and I think it was a wise thing to do. The McEvoy family, as the minister knows, really wanted a better system rather than revenge and it is to their credit that they've taken that position. I think we would be doing them a great disservice if we didn't follow up on that and try to improve the system.
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The inquiry came up with 34 recommendations, 19 of which directly related to the Department of Justice and I wanted to talk about three or four of them in particular as they related to what I see as the general tone of the McEvoy inquiry, which was to focus more on crime prevention, on turning off the supply of criminals rather than working with measures that related more to punishment. I wanted to look more at what the department is doing in terms of - these are some of the phrases out of the McEvoy inquiry - early identification, early intervention, more effective alternate intervention and better coordination.
[7:30 p.m.]
I would like to start with Recommendation 26, which essentially says that they would like the government to coordinate better, if you don't mind my quoting, "The Province should immediately begin the development and implementation of a public, comprehensive, collaborative, and effective interdepartmental strategy to coordinate its programs, interventions, services, and supports to children and youth at risk and their families, with a particular focus on the prevention of youth crime and a reduction in the likelihood of re-offending of young persons already in conflict with the law." That is a pretty straightforward recommendation.
What the McEvoy inquiry was saying is that there are too many silos in the five or six departments that deal with youth at risk, that the Archie Billard case, the McEvoy case really was an example of people falling between the cracks, that we need to integrate and collaborate and co-operate and navigate and communicate - these are all coming out of McEvoy.
I was at a meeting of the Nova Scotia Criminal Justice Association just a few weeks ago. Many of the departments that were present, people from the department who were present, said that they're really concerned about their ability to collaborate and integrate. As much as they mean well - there is a lot of goodwill - they are worried that not much has been done in a practical way. Mind you, it's not that long ago that these recommendations have come forward and my question is, how do you deal with this interdepartmental lack of coordination? Sometimes it is a problem of delays, sometimes it's a problem of disclosure, what measures have you put in place to deal with Recommendation 26?
MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, that is a very good question. I think we all recognized throughout the Nunn Commission of Inquiry and as a result of the recommendations and I think we all agreed, that in government it is very easy to be concerned about the issues that mainly deal with you and if they're dealing with a different department, then the department is left to deal with them on their own.
I think you have heard the Minister of Community Services mention many times about breaking down the silos because we have five departments under the direction of the Premier that were instructed to come together to work toward the implementation of the
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recommendations of Justice Nunn. The ones in front of the province and obviously there are some in front of the federal government which we've been working towards as well. So the departments have come together, we have been collaborating on the issues that we believe are issues that have crossed all of the departments. One of the big hurdles to overcome was identifying who would actually be the lead on this and who would actually be the one who would be responsible.
As you know, someone who has a problem or runs into trouble they may call one department and find out it is an issue that actually Community Services or Health should deal with or Education or Justice. What has happened is Community Services has been identified as the department as far as the lead and the new director of the child at risk strategy. It will be directly responsible to the Deputy Minister of Community Services. So we'll have someone finally in place who will be the person who will be able to take those calls and concerns and be able to address those issues. That person's responsible for coordinating at a very high level with all the departments, bringing together all the resources in the departments, and breaking down those silos and working together.
You talked about actually addressing the needs of youth and getting to youth, you're talking about the root causes of crime, that's what you're talking about. There's two aspects here, it's two pronged. One is the root cause of crime, one is obviously a strong enforcement, which I believe we need both. When it gets to the root causes of crime unfortunately it takes a lot of youth to reach a stage in their life where they end up in Waterville before they can actually access all the programs. They have great success in Waterville. In fact Justice Nunn himself said he went to Waterville and he was very impressed with not only the professionalism of the staff there but he was very impressed with the services that youth have access to when they get to Waterville.
How do we get those services to the youth in this province before they become incarcerated? That's a big problem. We heard that early intervention is very important and that we have to try to get ourselves in the lives of young people before they make those decisions of following the wrong path in life, somehow whether it's Health, Justice, or Community Services, someone will have to get into a young person's life as early as possible.
You've heard us talk about the youth attendance centre here in Halifax. I think it would be proper if you ever had the opportunity to visit there you would be amazed at what you'll see. I toured there with some of the folks here at the table and I can tell you that here's an opportunity, it's a golden opportunity, and obviously right now it's only in HRM, but we can see it being offered in other parts of the province as we see what's happening up there now because of the success they're having already, where youth who yes, they've come in conflict with the law, and yes they're being told they have to take certain programming, that programming is available at the attendance centre.
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You heard me read off earlier, maybe you did, about the different types of programs that are available for youth.
MR. PREYRA: Can I interrupt? Sorry, the question was more about, I think the McEvoy inquiry was saying that those services are out there but they exist in silos, that people can't navigate their way through the system, that they're inaccessible. I know we can talk about specific programs that are out there and they're doing very well, but there doesn't seem to be any way of bridging those divides and I appreciate what the minister is saying about Community Services being a lead agency, we should have a lead agency, but there were some fears expressed that the Community Services culture is very different from the Justice culture and those two cultures have not worked very well together. Let me just pass on that because I know that both the minister and the staff are committed to making this interdepartmental collaboration work, but it is important to bridge those silos. The McEvoy inquiry is essentially saying not that we should deal with the root causes of crime, not that we should deal with getting tough on crime, but a first step might just be to collaborate and co-operate so that when a family or youth comes into conflict with the law that the system has a way of identifying and intervening and coming up with more effective and better coordination.
MR. SCOTT: As I said earlier, a director is being hired through Community Services to coordinate those and the department has embarked upon an initiative as well. Someone is tasked now with ensuring that the initiative and crossing barriers of different departments is provided for.
MR. PREYRA: I also wanted to ask about Recommendation 30 in the Nunn Report which really talks more about alternate treatment and diversion programs and restorative justice, in particular dealing with youth with mental health issues, drug addictions, prostitution, those kinds of things which are not insurmountable problems given the right early intervention. Recommendation 30 says, "The Department of Justice should build on the results of its report, Perspectives on Youth Crime in Nova Scotia and continue its analysis of youth crime by comparing the Province's existing interventions, programs, and services for children and youth at risk . . ." with programs that are known to be effective elsewhere. "The department should publicly report the findings of this 'gap analysis' as a key part of the development of the Province's strategy for children and youth at risk." Has that been done and is there a report on where the gaps are and how the department intends to close those gaps?
MR. SCOTT: We have an individual on contract now with the Department of Justice until that youth coordinator through Community Services is hired. They're actually doing that analysis now and the report will be prepared.
MR. PREYRA: When can we expect that report? It is an important part of the beginning that we identify what interventions have worked elsewhere and what interventions
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are not working. We need to provide some kind of a road map for the system especially if various departments are going to coordinate then they need a road map. Nunn seems to be saying here that in this particular recommendation the Department of Justice should take the lead.
MR. SCOTT: We expect the report by summer and it will include that gap analysis that you talked about. It will be included in the report so we expect it by summer.
MR. PREYRA: One final question about the McEvoy inquiry and that is the recommendation about the new courthouses. He said, "When new courthouses are planned and built in the province, separate facilities should be provided for Youth Justice Court matters, completely apart from the adult facilities with dedicated space for partner agencies . . ." Recommendations 9 and 10 also flow with that. Where is the department in terms of the establishment of a separate youth justice court, the appointment of youth court liaison police, and a youth court Crown Attorney in Halifax?
MR. SCOTT: Actually in HRM here, obviously where there is a bigger population and the bigger courts, that's being done now. We're having two new facilities under construction, one in Bridgewater and one in Yarmouth. Those are both brand new court facilities so that recommendation is being taken into consideration.
MR. PREYRA: Will there will be a separate structure in there?
MR. SCOTT: You have to understand, if you've ever worked within the system you understand that a lot of times, depending on the area of the province, that to have a separate facility just for youth alone not being able to be used for anything else wouldn't make good use of space because obviously with the number of cases that are involved in some of those areas it wouldn't warrant a separate courtroom. Some parts of the province, obviously it does here in HRM, and that is underway now.
MR. PREYRA: Those are the questions I have on the McEvoy inquiry. I have two constituency related cases, one of which I've already drawn to your attention, but I think you had not been properly briefed on that at the time and I'd like to ask you some of these questions again. With respect, not that you weren't properly briefed, you were not properly warned either about those cases. I'll make this short.
This is the case that I raised in the House the other day, the Gus Reid case, and essentially Mr. Reid went to the Human Rights Commission and said that the province is in effect denying him access to a number of public buildings and public services - tourism, gaming authority, et cetera - because the Human Rights Act apparently does not protect him, does not provide him, does not guarantee him access to these places and essentially, if I can read quickly from this report, the Human Rights Commission said: That the basis of the allegation concerned the apparent absence of acknowledgement for issues surrounding
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accessibility in various government legislation. And he says, with respect to the respondent's omission - in other words, where the government doesn't take steps to protect the rights of people with disabilities - within the existing legislation, it falls outside of the Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission. He says, if you have concerns with respect to this legislation, I would encourage you to contact your local MLA.
To me, I was shocked, because it essentially says that the Department of Justice and the government and the Human Rights Commission, do not have an obligation to protect the rights of people with disabilities, when the Supreme Court has said, you know, sins of omission are a denial of fundamental rights. That if a person with a disability cannot get into a public space, whether it's City Hall or a hotel or the Legislature, that that is a denial of their rights and the Human Rights Commission is saying that the Human Rights Act doesn't allow you that. You have to go to your MLA and get the legislation changed, and I'm wondering if the Department of Justice is willing to champion that and allow the Human Rights Commission to hear complaints from people with disabilities who've been denied access to public spaces?
MR. SCOTT: The issue you bring forward now, it is a huge issue and you cover that with a wide brush because the national and provincial building codes obviously cover issues around public spaces that would be today, and new facilities being built today. As well, there's a commitment, as I said in your question the other day in the House, that there is a commitment by the province for provincially owned buildings to be completely accessible by 2020. But you're specifically asking whether the government would consider legislation to allow the Human Rights Commission to deal with all buildings in the province to be completely accessible?
[7:45 p.m.]
MR. PREYRA: Yes, and essentially, what Mr. Reid is saying is that if the government, for example, is establishing a building code for a particular facility, hotel, tourist authorities, that those building codes must have requirements that they be accessible, if not completely accessible, to people where numbers warrant and in sufficient numbers, and it seems to me, a fairly straightforward case, not just for people with disabilities but for seniors. You know, we have an aging population and we want to make all of our public spaces as accessible as possible. It seems to me, a reasonable request and at the very least, people with disabilities should have a place that they can go to appeal this denial of access.
MR. SCOTT: I need to understand. Are you talking about new construction or are you talking about all public places in the province, existing as they are today?
MR. PREYRA: Not so much existing, but new places.
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MR. SCOTT: I think you'll find, when it comes to new construction and I'm not an expert on this, but I think you'll find when it comes to new construction, the provincial and federal building codes, do allow public places for accessible issues to be dealt with, on new construction, but I understood that the question you asked me in the House the other day was whether we would consider legislation that would allow those folks to have the opportunity to appeal to the Human Rights Commission, where all buildings, where anyone would have access to in Nova Scotia, public buildings, should be accessible and I think you'd have to agree that that would be a huge task to undertake, to force all building owners in Nova Scotia to make their existing buildings, which may have been built 100 years ago, to be completely accessible. Now again, like I say, when it comes to new construction, there are building codes, both provincial and federal that contractors have to adhere to. The province does work with the disabilities association, in regard to issues such as this and I know that there's folks from different departments who are involved, certainly the Department of Justice is involved with that organization. In fact, you mentioned about seniors . . .
MR. PREYRA: Can I cut you off just for a minute because I have one minute left and I see the Chair looking at his time.
MR. SCOTT: No, you can't, I'm not finished. So the Senior Citizens' Secretariat is a good example - there are several departments within the government, one of which I'm a member that meet on a regular basis with, for example, seniors, who bring issues forward - I hear all the time, we hear as an organization, as a government department, issues around whether it be those with disabilities or seniors . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Time has expired.
The honourable member for Richmond.
MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Minister and your staff for being here for some of the Justice Estimates. Minister, let me start with an item that I've raised with you in the past and some of your predecessors, I'm wondering if you can indicate if any progress has been made on the issue of employing more bilingual sheriffs here in the Province of Nova Scotia.
MR. SCOTT: The member should be aware as well of the fact that we hired a French services coordinator last year, I believe last August, who has been working very hard in regard to ensuring that services are available in this province in both languages. In fact I was going to mention this to you the other day and I want to say it before I get the rest of the information, but you weren't here earlier when I mentioned about the swearing in of 15 new police officers here in Halifax last week, of the provincially funded police officers, which I think they told me four or five of them speak French and English as well which is a great thing. I think that shows the type of calibre of people being brought to this province and the emphasis being put on employees who have the ability to speak in both official languages.
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The new Director of Sheriff Services, Mr. Stephen Brown, who has recently just taken over, is bilingual himself. He, as well as the department, continue to look for bilingual officers to fill positions where they're needed in the province which you and I have talked about on past occasions. The effort is continuing to ensure that those positions are filled by bilingual officers.
MR. SAMSON: I will wait and see the results of the committee that was struck on French language services, but as I've mentioned to you before and I'm sure you'll appreciate from your time as an enforcement officer, sheriffs are called upon many times to explain to the accused exactly what the instructions are from the judge from the time that they might be in a holding cell to when they arrive in court. I've seen enough times being in court where after people are given instructions by the judge they walk to the back of the room and then ask the sheriff what did he just say or what am I supposed to do now, what he just spoke about I didn't understand.
What happens is that, especially in many communities including mine, many of the individuals that may have to appear in court do not fully understand when they're given instructions in English, especially if it's legal type language and the whole aspect of being in a courtroom and the fact that it's intimidating to say the least and therefore in many ways they rely upon the sheriffs to give instructions and it's an important element.
As I've said all along, it's not a matter of displacing existing sheriffs but when opportunities arise to hire new sheriffs it's an opportunity for the government to make it a requirement or at least request that people who are applying for the position be bilingual, especially in targeted areas around this province. I'm just curious during the past fiscal year of the positions that the department has advertised for could you indicate whether any of those would have had the requirement or desire that they be bilingual positions.
MR. SCOTT: Three within the court services. Are you talking specifically about sheriff positions, or just generally within the service?
MR. SAMSON: Well, I know there's an effort to expand the service, but certainly the front-line people who usually deal with the accused, or those who are convicted, are the sheriffs themselves which is why I wanted to start at least by asking about the sheriff positions. I know in my area of Richmond-Port Hawkesbury there was a posting a few years ago and actually after lobbying your predecessor it was agreed that it would be a bilingual position. In fact the individual who occupies it right now is bilingual and able to offer services in both languages. So I'm just curious, during the past year has your department advertised any positions for new sheriffs and made the requirement to be bilingual?
MR. SCOTT: The short answer is no but, as I was just reminded as well, the department continues to work towards and offer French language training upgrades for current staff within the system. Again, I know you raised the same issue last year and we
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talked about it since and you raised it again here. I mean it's a very important issue. I think there are attempts being made to try to ensure that we can fill the positions where the need is with bilingual services, whether it's court, whether it's sheriffs, or whatever, within the system and where we don't have the opportunity to hire people, or people are not applying for those positions, to at least offer adequate training for those who wish to upgrade their skills or to take French language training.
MR. SAMSON: Can the minister indicate whether any of his current staff in the court system have taken the opportunity to receive more training in a French language?
MR. SCOTT: Approximately 15 that are within the system now, yes, have been taking advantage of the opportunity to upgrade their French language training.
MR. SAMSON: Can the minister indicate whether his department has identified geographical areas that would be such that there might be a need for French language services through the court system in those areas?
MR. SCOTT: The short answer, again, is yes. Obviously, there are areas in the province - and I can look in my own community - where the need would be probably very low, but in the honourable member's area it's very high. I think it's fair to say that the answer is yes, that the department continues to look at areas such as yours and other areas of the province where the population is fairly high in regard to Francophone and we should be trying to fill the positions, whether it's court or sheriffs or any other government services.
I recently met with - and I won't be able to say the name - a group that I talked to Minister d'Entremont about, a group that represents those within the legal community (Interruptions) Thank you - merci. We talked about some of these issues and I told the group, and I spoke to Minister d'Entremont afterwards saying, I want to work with this group and we should be working collectively together to try to do what we can, because some of the issues they brought forward are the issues you're bringing here tonight. I think you're right. They had issues around wills, for example. Everyone should have the opportunity, when they are looking for government services, to be able to access them in the language of their choice.
I'm just reminded, as well, we now have three bilingual probation officers within the system: one in Yarmouth, one in New Glasgow, and one in Port Hawkesbury.
MR. SAMSON: That's very good. I can picture the future, that before too long we won't just be talking about English and French court language services if our province is going to continue to talk about immigration and bringing people in from outside.
I look at the time where I used to work as a summer student in the Registry of Motor Vehicles where we didn't even officially offer French language services. It just happened that
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the department would try to be strategic in hiring students who actually could be bilingual and I was called upon to different offices in the province to do that. I was reminded, at the time when we did some research, that Ontario offered 22 different languages at their Registry of Motor Vehicles. So we have a lot of advancement to do as a province.
I would strongly encourage that your department, considering the importance that it plays and the fact that it's not only important that justice be served but that people understand exactly what they are being told through the Justice Department and through our court system. So I have no doubt that before too long, and hopefully I'm young enough that I'll see the day, we'll probably be, as a province, required to provide much more than just English and French language training.
On another issue, I'm curious, and I raise this every year and I'll raise it again, could the minister indicate whether there's any additional funding for the Legal Aid Program in this year's budget?
MR. SCOTT: There is $475,000. I'm glad you brought that up because that's a very important issue for this department, for this government, and I know it is for yourself as well. At one time, you would know, there was a 50-50 cost sharing on legal aid in this province with the federal government. That has now eroded. I think the criminal side is around 20 per cent by the feds and 80 per cent by the province. Over the last couple of years we've put an additional $2 million into legal aid, put in an additional $4.75 million this year.
We think it's imperative, and I believe it's imperative, that the federal government get back to its funding of 50-50 cost sharing because, as I said earlier as well, in my experience in policing, it's very important for people who are entering the justice system to have the legal advice and direction that they need and get it as soon as possible. Most times for many people legal aid is the only way. So we are continuing every year to try to put additional money into it and we'll continue, as well, to encourage the federal government to restore that 50-50 cost sharing.
If I could, the Public Service Commission actually is reviewing the issue around what job descriptions will look like in this province, and I'm told that as a part of that review there will be a bilingual in place.
MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, I'm glad to hear that, and I emphasize again that I believe the French and Acadian community has been very patient. The approach they've taken has not been to displace anyone. It has been that when opportunities arise, when there are job openings, that was an opportunity at that point to be able to bring people in who can offer bilingual services. I think that's a credit to the Acadian and French community that it hasn't been militant to the point of saying that people should be displaced or taken out of their positions because they can't speak French but, at the same time, it's important that the government identify those positions and do their best to be able to fill those.
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I do wish the minister well in getting the federal government to restore its 50 per cent funding for legal aid and if the minister can achieve that, I encourage him to focus on housing grants, as well, to try to get them back up to 50 per cent from the federal government, because we could use help on that front as well.
When you say there's more money for legal aid - $475,000 in this budget - where exactly is that money going? Is it to increase the legal aid tickets provided to private lawyers, is it just to hire more legal aid lawyers, or allow them to handle more cases? What exactly is the intent of that additional funding?
MR. SCOTT: Well, $375,000 is actually for positions for staff lawyers and $100,000 would be for certificates. Now, I just want to mention that in the last 10 years the province has put an additional $10 million into legal aid, while the federal government has decreased its contribution by $200,000.
The other thing I was going to mention, as well, was that at the federal-provincial-territorial meetings in Newfoundland and Labrador in the Fall, it was agreed amongst all of the ministers there, all of the ministers from all of the provinces and territories coming together at that meeting and then the final day meeting with the Public Safety Minister and the Minister of Justice, you know, it was agreed amongst all of us, to them, that the number one issue across this country we wanted to see was the return to the 50-50 cost sharing for legal aid in Canada, not just Nova Scotia but across this country. So it's not only recognized here by people such as yourself, it's recognized across this country that we need to get back to that funding formula.
MR. SAMSON: Did I understand from your answer that you did say a portion of that was going towards legal aid tickets?
MR. SCOTT: Yes, $100,000 for legal aid tickets.
MR. SAMSON: Now, of that $100,000, is that just to make sure there are more legal aid tickets or are you increasing the rates on legal aid tickets?
MR. SCOTT: More certificates.
[8:00 p.m.]
MR. SAMSON: Well, you know, that's a problem I've raised before and I raise with you again. Unfortunately, more and more private lawyers will not take legal aid tickets, whether it's for criminal matters or whether it's for family matters. It's to the point now where I know some lawyers are trying to get the Bar Society to recognize that taking legal aid tickets should be considered a bit of pro bono legal work on their behalf because of the fact that they don't pay well.
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For family matters, they're extremely complicated. They're time-consuming and clearly those tickets don't in any way reflect the reality of what's going on in private practice. That's the brutal honesty of that and with criminal matters it's no different. There is a lot of work that goes into that and when you consider the amount of money that most lawyers are charging in private practice and what's being made available through these legal aid tickets, it just simply doesn't pay, and more and more firms are just refusing to do them. That's unfortunate, because I can tell you in the Strait area I have people contact my office and say, look, I've been offered a legal aid ticket because the other party is getting legal aid representation. The way the legal aid system is set up now is that if you do have a legal aid lawyer, the other party in the matter is usually offered a legal aid ticket to go get a private lawyer.
The problem is, in the Strait area, we're down to only two or three lawyers between Inverness, Richmond, Antigonish and Guysborough that will even look at these things. That's just my area, I can only imagine how much of a challenge it is elsewhere in the province. So I'm curious, first of all, is your department aware that this is a problem and, secondly, have you looked at any way of trying to address this to allow more private lawyers to be able to accept these legal aid tickets?
MR. SCOTT: That is a good question. I know you're supposed to ask the questions here, but I was going to ask you, is this something that's been brought to your attention within the last year, or prior to that? Because last year, if you recall, we did increase the amounts by $30 or $40 an hour, I think - I forget the number right off. I'm kind of curious if that's something you've heard because it's not something we've heard lately. I know we heard it up until last year when we increased the rates. I'm just wondering, is that something that you've heard, that we need to review again?
MR. SAMSON: It's my understanding that there have been some improvements made in that regard. Still, compared to what a private lawyer would usually charge for these matters, it's still nowhere near what would be gotten from a private client, being charged at the regular hourly basis.
It still is a problem and I can tell you from my knowledge, most law firms will either make their junior lawyer do the legal aid tickets, or some of the sole practitioners may take them on in that regard. But it still is an issue and legal aid tickets are not looked upon in a very favourable light, even with the changes that have been made. So I'm curious, with the increase of last year, is there any plan to look at further changes in the next fiscal year?
MR. SCOTT: We increased the hourly rate, but we also increased the amount of hours per case that we would allow a lawyer. We thought that had actually taken care of the issue, but it hasn't been brought to us since we did those increases last year.
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I'm also being told the certificates that had been accepted by the private Bar have increased over the last year as well, which would indicate to us that more lawyers are accepting those certificates as a result of the increased hourly rate and increased amount of time per case.
Again, we're always willing to look at issues like that. We thought last year - because you actually brought that forward last year - we thought we had dealt with the issue.
MR. SAMSON: Of the $375,000 that you're spending on more staff, have you been able to identify how many additional legal aid lawyers this would fund?
MR. SCOTT: That would allow for five additional staff lawyers and two support staff.
MR. SAMSON: Could the minister indicate when his department intends on advertising for those positions and, more importantly, where will they be located?
MR. SCOTT: Obviously, we wouldn't be looking to advertise before Friday, but I've just been told that the Legal Aid Commission actually would be - they deal with those issues that you just brought forward.
MR. SAMSON: Is the minister aware of where those five additional positions would be located?
MR. SCOTT: They would identify where the need is in the province. The Legal Aid Commission would actually decide where those positions would be most needed in the province.
MR. SAMSON: So at this point your department is not aware of where they would be looking to put these five additional positions?
MR. SCOTT: No. Again, obviously until the budget process is completed, they wouldn't move on any further initiatives.
MR. SAMSON: Today, the minister would be aware that I tabled a bill to establish a privacy officer for the Province of Nova Scotia. This is an issue that many of the provinces have already put in place in order to have someone responsible that people could raise concerns regarding their private information and the use of that information. Has your department done any research or has it established any position on the establishment of a privacy officer for the Province of Nova Scotia?
MR. SCOTT: No. To the best of my knowledge that has not been raised as an issue or has not been given any consideration, aside from in the department.
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MR. SAMSON: To your knowledge, are there any objections with the establishment of a privacy officer?
MR. SCOTT: Again, it hasn't been raised as an issue, so I would have to say not that I'm aware of, however, it would be something we would have to take a look at I guess.
MR. SAMSON: Well, hopefully your department will look at it. I can't recall offhand, but I believe either four or five other Canadian jurisdictions have already put in place a privacy officer and I'm sure the minister will appreciate with the amount of sensitivity around private information now amongst government, the use of video cameras at different sites, as well, has given cause for people to be concerned about the use of their private information or how the state or business may be looking into their private lives. So I do hope the minister will look at the issue, and hopefully in the Fall session we'll have an opportunity to further discuss the issue of a privacy officer for the Province of Nova Scotia.
Another issue which I've raised with the minister in the past that he'll be familiar with is the issue of maintenance enforcement here in the Province of Nova Scotia. I'm curious if the minister could indicate to us, what steps has his department taken in the last fiscal year, since we spoke last about this issue, in regard to maintenance enforcement and as to whether there's anything in this current budget to deal with maintenance enforcement issues and whether the department has, more importantly, any plans on increasing the amount of maintenance enforcement officers or support given to that division of his office?
MR. SCOTT: I would begin by saying that in my initial comments I talked about - you know, the Maintenance Enforcement Program has been very successful. I think we're recovering around 80 per cent of monies owed. The member asked last year, and I know he asked me again about the issue around, for example, Yarmouth where we continue - and I made a commitment to ensure the face-to-face service that was required by people in the area who would need it, that it would be in place. In fact, I believe that's still in place today.
The specific question you asked was around additional funding and we have - I talked earlier about the reciprocal unit as well, which is bringing cases here from outside of the province to be dealt with here. There are three staff in there. They have approximately 2,500 cases that they deal with on a regular basis. (Interruption) We've also budgeted an additional $0.25 million - $250,000 - which would be for any additional staff that may be hired later in the year or for other needs in the department.
HON. MARK PARENT: . . . meetings that are being held around the province, I don't know if they've all been finished yet - the Safer Communities - but what feedback you've gotten from those meetings, if you have an update on them.
MR. SCOTT: Yes, the task force has concluded its meetings, I understand. I believe last weekend they spent a couple of days together to go over what they've heard from the
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general population of Nova Scotia, to look at what they may be recommending back to me. My understanding is that there's a draft report with recommendations coming sometime early in May. They've held, I think, around 45 meetings throughout the province, which would include focus groups as well. I attended a couple of those myself, one here in Halifax on Gottingen Street and one in Dartmouth. Some of these meetings were obviously well attended and some of them were not so well attended. But I know from my discussions with some of the members, they've had the opportunity to hear from Nova Scotians from one end of the province to the other and they felt the meetings were very beneficial.
As I said earlier, these are 25 volunteers who volunteer their time from very busy lives and from a wide array of backgrounds: a lot of expertise in restorative justice and in health, some were elected officials, some were - anyway, they've done a fantastic job. I was truly amazed by the eagerness of this group to come together.
We first met in Truro around Christmastime, just before Christmas in fact, I think about a week or so before Christmas, and I said at the time that when most families were planning their Christmas holidays, these people were prepared to volunteer their time and join this task force that I'd asked to have formed and to travel throughout Nova Scotia over the last number of months, through winter months. They've done a phenomenal job and I'm really looking forward to the draft report, with recommendations, which I understand will come sometime in May.
MR. PARENT: That would be my only question right now - move back to the Liberal caucus. But I just wanted to thank the minister for having a meeting in the Kentville area. I deeply appreciate it, since we've recently had two deaths in the area from violent crime. So I want to publicly thank the minister for that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you. Next question.
MR. SAMSON: Just back on maintenance enforcement. Have you put additional officers into that program?
MR. SCOTT: We've committed $250,000, additional money, this year, in the new budget. The reciprocal unit has three staff, and they will handle about 2,500 cases. That's three additional staff, plus two more besides. So there's an additional five.
MR. SAMSON: And where would those staff members be placed?
MR. SCOTT: Three of them are in Sydney and two are in Dartmouth.
MR. SAMSON: So three new staff members in Sydney? Very good. Mr. Minister, we've argued before, or we had disagreements I guess, over the percentage of default rate here in Nova Scotia, as to what that actual percentage is. Our figures show us that last year
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we had a 78 per cent collection rate. We were 11th amongst 12 reporting provinces and territories. I'm curious, does the minister have a plan to increase the amount of the collection rate for the Maintenance Enforcement Program?
MR. SCOTT: I just want to begin by saying that I give full marks to those who work within the Maintenance Enforcement Program around this province, because a lot of the time they're dealing with very difficult situations - it's probably an understatement to say - and a lot times with individuals who, for all kinds of reasons, are not only avoiding payment, but are doing everything they can to ensure that they don't have to fulfill their commitment. The Legislature passed legislation to ensure that we do everything we can, particularly for children, to ensure that children are in receipt of the monies that they're entitled to.
But I think, as well, sometimes numbers are skewed. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but sometimes when people who are not going through court order but in fact have payments made directly to them, if it's not through the court and then they report that the money is not paid or only a portion of the money is being paid, then that's deemed to be a default, which a lot of the times will skew the numbers as well.
I think we have a good collection rate here, 80 per cent. That means that obviously 20 per cent are either in default one way or another, and that could be the fact that they missed one payment, because if someone misses one payment that, in fact, puts them in default. The cases we hear about - and I know you have brought it to my attention and other members have as well - a lot of times the cases we hear about are those hard cases where the enforcement officer is doing everything they possibly can to collect, whether it's someone who leaves one job and goes to another, or just deliberately quits their job or moves, or fails to disclose for whatever reason, does everything within their power to avoid meeting their commitment. But I believe that the maintenance enforcement workers in this province do a good job.
[8:15 p.m.]
MR. SAMSON: No, I don't doubt they do a good job. I think you recited how many caseloads each one of them handles and it's an atrocious number to start off with, as to how many cases each one of them is handling. One of the big challenges, and it's been a challenge for a number of years and I think it's only going to get worse, is dealing with out-of-jurisdiction defaulters, and in our case we certainly know in Nova Scotia, during the last number of years, the amount of our residents who have moved away to Ontario and to Alberta - Fort McMurray more specifically. I wonder if the minister could indicate as to what efforts have been undertaken to work with other jurisdictions in order to be able to track down and identify payers who may be in default in the Maintenance Enforcement Program in our province.
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MR. SCOTT: We've actually just put in place a new reciprocal unit, which deals with those various issues the member is talking about. In fact, I'm in the process now of transferring that information from throughout the province to the unit, but as well from other jurisdictions throughout Canada. We've also reduced the caseload for workers down to 615, which is a substantial decrease from where it was.
MR. SAMSON: So 615 cases per worker, on average.
MR. SCOTT: It was over 700 last year. But we are working on those issues. You talk about the reciprocal unit, it will be working on those issues about other jurisdictions and trying to gather that information - this unit will deal with those very issues you talk about.
MR. SAMSON: I guess at this point, has that unit had any success or is it still in the formation stage?
MR. SCOTT: Yes, it's still in the formation stage. It's very close to being up and running. In fact, they're formulating that information now and trying to work towards getting it underway.
MR. SAMSON: I would encourage the minister to keep the House advised as to how that is proceeding and when one can expect that process will be underway. I think the instances where some of the defaulters are moving out of jurisdiction are going to increase and it's going to be essential that we continue as a province to be vigilant in everything we do.
On that issue, it's my understanding that Ontario, for example, has created a Web site for deadbeat parents which has gotten some media attention and apparently has actually been an effective tool in identifying the whereabouts of some of these deadbeat parents in the Province of Ontario. I'm curious, could the minister indicate whether the Province of Nova Scotia has reviewed this matter or whether it has any intentions on establishing a similar Web site?
MR. SCOTT: We're aware of those other jurisdictions that have that type of service available. My understanding is the department is watching very closely, particularly as to what type of success they have. Then we'll do an evaluation as to whether we'd be interested in offering that same type of service here in Nova Scotia.
MR. SAMSON: But at this point there's no intention to move forward with that? We're still using our Web sites to bring Nova Scotians back from Calgary, I take it.
Part of the Justice Nunn Commission report talked about the internal information management system, the improvement of the Justice Enterprise Information Network here in the province. In fact, in the Nunn report it talked about a system breakdown in that system.
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Can you indicate whether there's any funding in this budget to address the problems with the Justice Enterprise Information Network?
MR. SCOTT: We've allocated, as you would know, an additional $5 million total between the departments for the Nunn recommendations, and $3 million of that is yet to be determined where it will be spent - right now it's with Community Services. As you know, five departments are working together. Community Services will take the lead with regard to the director who, I believe, is in the process of being hired now. There's $3 million yet for the Nunn recommendations that will be determined as to how and where we'll spend that.
MR. SAMSON: I guess the minister will recall we had the embarrassing situation where apparently fax machines weren't working. Is the minister in a position to give any assurances to us that the fax machines in our justice centres are actually operational as we speak?
MR. SCOTT: Yes.
MR. SAMSON: Okay. Are we allocating any additional money to make sure our fax machines don't break down anymore?
MR. SCOTT: I would say that long before the Nunn Commission finished its deliberations that the department ensured that not only the office in question, but all offices across the province, had the adequate resources and the equipment in place to ensure something like that would not happen again.
MR. SAMSON: That's good to hear. Your government had promised $460,000 in the past to hire more mental health professionals to reduce delays in completing court-ordered mental health assessments. Could the minister indicate whether that money has been allocated in this current budget?
MR. SCOTT: I believe that money is being allocated through the IWK. Is that for the court-ordered assessments - is that the court-ordered assessments you're talking about?
MR. SAMSON: Yes, mental health assessments.
MR. SCOTT: Yes, we'll be about $0.5 million in this current budget for that very service.
MR. SAMSON: You'll be $0.5 million, so that's going to be spent in hiring more mental health assessment professionals?
MR. SCOTT: Yes, I'll verify that for you. My understanding is that money will be allocated for the IWK to hire those professionals to do those court-ordered assessments.
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MR. SAMSON: I appreciate that. One of the bills that was passed here in the House dealt with the interlock system. I know it was through the Department of Transportation and Public Works, but obviously there would be a Justice component to that. I wonder if the minister could indicate, what participation has his department had in these discussions and when can we expect that program to be up and running in this province?
MR. SCOTT: The interlock, you're right, it crosses Justice, Transportation and Public Works - obviously it's an initiative of the Minister of Transportation and Public Works and also Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. There are some issues around computer systems, implementing a new program, downloading information, because apparently it's quite a high-tech system where information from that interlock will actually be downloaded, I believe by GPS, and downloaded on a regular basis, whether it's daily or whether it's weekly. So it's quite an intensive change required in Transportation and Public Works, but especially in Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations.
I know they're working on dealing with that now. I can't give you a specific date when they expect to implement it.
MR. SAMSON: One of the issues I've raised in the past, and I'm trying to remember what the name of the program was - it was operation something, I believe. It was a program where probation officers were joined by police officers and doing some routine checks on people who were serving probation, especially in cases where there may be some concerns around violence during those routine checks.
I can't remember what the program was, but if I'm not mistaken, it was a program under the previous government and had been cut or frozen since 1999. I've raised it a number of times before. I'm just curious, where does that stand with your department when it comes to the issue of providing additional police support to probation officers in carrying out their duties? Or is there no such support that currently exists in the department?
MR. SCOTT: There are some new initiatives here in HRM, as you know, the bail supervision program which we budgeted for. The program you're talking about, I don't recall the name of it either but if I remember, I believe that actual program was ceased because of some issues around occupational health and safety concerns about probation officers, police officers and even though they do similar type work, there were some issues around safety concerns and that was why the program was stopped.
MR. SAMSON: And that never really made any sense to me back then and it still doesn't make any sense to me right now, because the whole idea was to provide the additional support to probation officers who would be going into possibly dangerous situations. So I appreciate that it could have caused some occupational health and safety concerns, which is why I thought the whole idea that this has been raised as a concern, that the police would be there to support, and the solution was to get rid of the police? It seems
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to me that now probation officers are left on their own to go into potentially dangerous situations, so I didn't understand the logic back then and I still don't understand it now. I'm just curious, is there a means through your department that the probation officers, if they feel they're going into a potentially dangerous situation, can access the support of either the police or the RCMP?
MR. SCOTT: Absolutely, and I'm just informed that it's Operation Breach. What was ceased at the time was the actual travelling together, the probation officer and the police office together in the patrol car, that's what was stopped. The co-operation still continues and there is an agreement between the police and probation where they would certainly come to each other to those types of situations you are talking about. So that relationship continues, it's just the fact of travelling together is what actually ended.
MR. SAMSON: Do you specifically have any financing that's made available to assist the probation officers in that regard, or is it just a gentlemen's agreement that the police will show up if they're required?
MR. SCOTT: Just a mutual agreement.
MR. SAMSON: Is there any intention to return to having both work together in certain dangerous situations, rather than leaving it to the probation officer to have to make a judgment call as to whether it potentially could be a dangerous situation or not? Or because of occupational health and safety reasons, are there any intentions of returning to that type of program?
MR. SCOTT: I'll just again state that relationship still continues today. They do accompany each other in those situations, they just don't travel in the same vehicle together. I guess safety reasons is why it stopped, but there's still that relationship, there's still that opportunity which happens on a regular basis, where the police would accompany probation officers to those types of residences you're talking about and those types of situations, to ensure the safety of the probation officer.
MR. SAMSON: Does your department do any tracking or keep statistics as to whether potential assaults against probation officers or reporting by the probation officers of situations where they felt they were put in danger or anything like that? Do you keep any tracking of that information? That's not a statistic that you compile?
MR. SCOTT: Apparently we do not have the tracking system in place you're talking about, but I'm told as well that obviously there would have been a report of any assaults on probation officers, and there have not been any.
MR. SAMSON: There have not been any in the past year that you are aware of?
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MR. SCOTT: No.
[8:30 p.m.]
MR. SAMSON: That's good to hear. The government announced that it's going to spend $65 million over four years to hire an additional 250 police officers. My understanding is that this budget is the first year where there's actually going to be some of that money spent. It was a promise last year, this appears to be the first year money is being put in. My understanding is that $7.5 million is being spent this year for an additional - I don't have the number, how many? - 80. Can the minister, either today or at a later date, provide me with the breakdown of where those 80 officers are going to be posted?
MR. SCOTT: Absolutely. I can tell you that the $7.5 million is for the initial 80. By next Spring, next year's budget, we expect that every unit, every municipality in Nova Scotia will have had at least one, from the smallest in the province, which I believe is Annapolis Royal, up to the largest, which obviously is the HRM, which is 36, I believe the number is - sorry, 32. But yes, we certainly can provide the list of where deployment will be.
MR. SAMSON: Has the department or government . . .
MR. SCOTT: I would offer to read them to you, if you want me to.
MR. SAMSON: No, that's fine, you can send me that. I think Richmond is getting one, so you can go through your list and confirm whether that's correct, whether Richmond is getting one or not.
MR. SCOTT: Richmond?
MR. SAMSON: A beautiful little place in Cape Breton Island.
MR. SCOTT: I know right where it is.
MR. SAMSON: Not that we need more police officers or anything, but that's how we refer to ourselves.
MR. SCOTT: One now, this year, 2007-08.
MR. SAMSON: Yes, I spoke to the sergeant down in Richmond, in fact, coming out of church, and he told me about that - I'm not sure if it was because we were in church or not, but anyway. Has the department in any way, or the government, given any sort of directive to these municipal units or to cities as to what services they would like to see these additional officers doing? Or is it being left to the municipal units and the cities to decide whether it's traffic enforcement, drug enforcement, Internet policing? Is there any sort of
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directive being given by the department, or you're just providing the new officers and allowing each of these municipalities or municipal units to decide where and how they want to use these new officers?
MR. SCOTT: I'll begin by saying that for myself and I know the Premier, a priority with us - we have two priorities: street crime and drugs. I've heard from one end of the province - I'm sure the honourable member has as well in his own communities and schools and around our communities, whether they're small or large in Nova Scotia, the Department of Justice has continued to work with the Chiefs of Police Association here in Nova Scotia with regard to the allotments and how these officers will be allocated to the various units.
Obviously, there are different needs in different areas. If you're talking about a street crime unit, for example, in one county in this province, or maybe an issue of break and enters and assaults in the street where drugs may not be of a high priority at that time in that community, it doesn't mean that in the following year the priority won't change.
Although we've left to the discretion of the different police jurisdictions how they'll use that resource, they're also aware as well that we're doing an ongoing evaluation. These are positions that are being paid for solely by the Province of Nova Scotia. I have priorities with regard to what I think needs to be done in the province, they're aware of that. They've all agreed to that.
For example, Pictou County will have five additional officers collectively within the county, both municipal and federal, within the communities and the Municipality of Pictou. They're putting those five officers into a street crime unit that will deal with the issues I just talked about - street crime and drugs. It's a good example of what working together, both the provincial force and the municipal units, can do and use the resources being paid for by the province, how they can use that to the benefit of the communities - addressing issues that are of mutual concern, I'm sure, to all the members of this House and Nova Scotians in general.
So far, what we've seen from the reports and how these units themselves are getting this resource, what they've told us and what they've shown us so far, I'm confident this will be money well spent and we'll see great results from this investment by the people of Nova Scotia.
MR. SAMSON: No, my understanding from speaking with the sergeant at home is that it will be focused more on the drug enforcement, which is always an area of great concern.
On that issue - I'm sure the minister is well aware - the use of recreational and harder drugs amongst our youth population is increasing all the time, especially in our school system and everything else. Can the minister indicate whether his department, in conjunction with other government departments, has undertaken any initiatives, especially on the front of
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education, to try to provide the youth of our province with more awareness of the impacts of drug addiction and the use of illegal drugs here in this province?
MR. SCOTT: A number of those positions have been identified and reserved for school liaison officers. A good example of what police are doing with regard to school liaison is right in Cape Breton with Chief Edgar MacLeod, they're doing a fantastic job. I think they're getting 10 additional bodies. I'm sorry I omitted that when I made my original comments, but something we indicated to them as well, when we talk about drugs, we're talking about educating our youth and trying to get liaison officers into the schools - whether it's municipal, RCMP - and I'm being told that's part of a plan of a lot of the areas where they deem a need to be. They may use some of the resource they have now and in conjunction with the additional resource.
On the issue of drugs generally in Nova Scotia, I think we're doing a lot with regard to enforcement. The other issue is how we deal with the root causes of crime, particularly around drugs. We're in the process now of developing a provincial drug strategy. In fact, I met with the round table group this past week and welcomed them here - there were folks across the province, police from Cape Breton - actually, a guy that I trained with a few years ago, Eugene MacLean. I don't know if you know Gene, but anyway, I think he's an inspector with the Cape Breton Regional Police.
But there are some experienced people from different departments, different stakeholders, who are meeting with regard to developing a provincial drug strategy, which I think will go a long way to help us deal with not only the enforcement, but particularly the root causes of drugs.
The other issue is around the task force, which just completed their deliberations, which has heard, as well, a lot about drugs throughout this province. I'm really looking forward to the input they'll have that we will implement and use when we develop our drug strategy program.
MR. SAMSON: I'm sure the minister will appreciate that education is always the best way to deal with these things. I recall - it hasn't been that long, but I guess it's been a while now - when I was in high school, you had the RCMP come in with their briefcase, opening it up and showing us all the different samples of drugs. That was informative, but I think when you look at some of the programs on TV now - 20/20, the fifth estate, and other informative programs - they show you the effects of crystal meth. No officer opening up a briefcase showing you what crystal meth looks like has the impact of showing the dental pictures of someone with no teeth left in their mouth when they're 21 years old. That has an impact on someone and I'm not sure where our province is now in that regard, either through your department or the Department of Education, but it's not just a matter of informing the youth of our province about using drugs.
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Addiction is a serious issue and it's not just a matter of saying don't use drugs. It's a matter of informing our youth of here's where drug addiction takes you and crystal meth, there's no better way of scaring them from using crystal meth than seeing those pictures from the dentist. I watched that program and was just horrified to see young people in their early 20s with basically false teeth because this drug had just eaten right through the calcium of their own dental structure.
So I'm just curious, is your department, in conjunction with the Department of Education, working towards a strong education campaign to let people know, especially our young through our education system, the hazards of not only drug use but, more importantly, of drug addiction? I can tell you - and I'm sure you representing a fairly rural area as well - it's having a devastating impact on our communities and we're seeing so many young people who could have such productive careers, unfortunately falling into the perils of drug addiction. With all due respect, an officer opening his briefcase and showing drugs just doesn't have the impact that it should be having on making children and kids understand, and teenagers understand, the effects of addiction and how devastating they can be on someone's life.
MR. SCOTT: I appreciate your comments and I agree wholeheartedly. I remember the days as well, you know, when we went into the schools and basically just showed them some - you know, these were prepared exhibits ahead of time or things that were seized by the police that were put in the cases to showcase what they looked like and really, other than - I don't know what effect it had on them, but I agree with you. In fact, I will ensure that the issue is presented to the group that's trying to develop this drug strategy program for us, I will ensure that's presented to them for their consideration, because I think the member's right. There's a great opportunity there to take advantage of the misfortunes of others, but hopefully our young people will learn from it. So I'll make sure the committee is aware of that and, in fairness to them, that may already be part of their deliberations, but I'll ensure that they get it.
MR. SAMSON: And I think it's important to realize when I was growing up, it was mostly hashish and weed that kids were experimenting with. Those don't fall into the same category as crystal meth. It's nowhere near and I'm sure the minister understands that and that's the reality of what's out there. That's not an experimental drug. It's one of the most highly addictive drugs out there and, unfortunately, more and more it's being made available in rural Nova Scotia and in urban Nova Scotia.
We know the impacts that there were a few years ago when my colleague, the member for Glace Bay, raised the issue about a number of drugs, OxyContin and a number of the other painkillers, but when I hear that crystal meth is making its way into my communities, it terrifies me. I've seen the impact it's going to have, so I would certainly encourage the minister and his government to ramp up their education efforts on that and if
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it's shock value that's required, then shock value is out there because it's real and the impact is real.
One of the other issues I want to raise with the minister in my time, I know that you announced a pilot program with ankle bracelets for people who are out on probation. I'm curious, could the minister indicate what the status of that program is and if there's any additional funding that has been made available in this year's budget to deal with that program?
MR. SCOTT: Yes, I believe at the present time there are 30 participants in the program, approximately. We're hoping to expand that to 100 and we have budgeted for that.
MR. SAMSON: How many additional dollars do you have in this year's budget for that program?
MR. SCOTT: There's $200,000.
MR. SAMSON: One of the other issues I wanted to raise with the minister which was in the news recently, unfortunately, but it deals with the . . .
MR. SCOTT: Sorry, I just gave you the wrong information. (Interruption) Sorry, the right amount is $498,000 and that would allow us up to 100 participants in the program.
MR. SAMSON: In closing off on this round, Mr. Minister, I know it was raised in the public and it's of great concern to Nova Scotians, and certainly of great concern to people in Cape Breton, the issue came out about the issue of day parole and they've asked us about some of the convicted individuals regarding the McDonald's murders that took place in Cape Breton a number of years ago, the issue being that life sentence was given and yet suddenly we're seeing day parole and day passes long before the life sentence has been served. What position has your government taken or what efforts have you been applying in regard to our justice system on the issue, when you're looking at such a violent crime as these were, that the actual sentences given are actually being served in their entirety?
MR. SCOTT: The member may or may not be aware but, you know, I and a lot of Nova Scotians were outraged when we read the news and heard, like the families were, for the fact that the judge of the individual we're talking about had incarcerated him for 20 years, and I believe at the time the judge had said with no chance of parole. But the National Parole Board allows for release at an earlier time.
Anyway, I had called and also have communicated with the minister that my belief was that when the court placed a sentence on such a horrific crime as this, when the judge said 20 years with no chance of parole before that, that it should be that. It should be the 20 years and, you know, I also indicated that I plan on raising it when we have our other
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provincial-territorial ministers around the table, raise that as an issue to try to encourage the federal government to review that, because the National Parole Board has a lot of discretion when it comes to early release and I think it's something that should be reviewed.
[8:45 p.m.]
There are certain crimes I believe in this country that, you know, Canadians decided a number of years ago to do away with capital punishment, but in return for that there were certain minimum sentences I believe that Canadians believed should be in place for certain types of crimes, and these are the types of crimes that Canadians expect people to do full term, in my opinion anyway. I'll share that with my federal counterpart and will at our next meetings when we have meetings for those ministers around the table.
MR. SAMSON: I appreciate those efforts by the minister. I'm curious, is it the practice or has it ever been done where the Department of Justice would actually either intervene or provide a presentation or submission to the National Parole Board in these types of cases?
MR. SCOTT: I just wanted to get some more facts here. Obviously, in cases like this, family members, to be there to be able to provide evidence or at least observe, are notified. I don't believe the Department of Justice would even be notified in those cases, or at least that's my understanding, but we're just trying to verify that, whether in fact we would even be aware of the parole hearings. As you can appreciate, there would be a lot of parole hearings that would be taking place, not only in this province but elsewhere as well. A lot of the inmates, when they're incarcerated federally, could end up in New Brunswick, Ontario or out West. So I assume those parole hearings would take place at that facility where they're incarcerated. (Interruption) Yes, where it's a federal institution, again the Department of Justice wouldn't even be notified that the hearings were taking place.
MR. SAMSON: Just in closing though - I'm sure, Mr. Chairman, I'm running low on time - I guess it's a question of if you're not successful in your discussions with your federal counterparts, it might be a matter of even your department looking. Fortunately, in Nova Scotia we don't have that many cases that would fall under the circumstances as the McDonald's murders and, you know, we all wish that doesn't change either, that we have to have more of those.
I'm wondering if it wouldn't also be an idea for your department to keep track of those kinds of situations and should there be such a situation where early parole is being offered that your department, on a public safety position and on a justice position, would be available to make submissions on behalf of the Crown here in Nova Scotia and on the Justice Department in regard to the availability of early parole. So I leave that with the minister as an option. I know it might not be the easiest thing, but hopefully there aren't that many cases that we have to keep track of, either currently or in the future.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The time has elapsed, thank you.
The honourable member for Halifax Citadel.
MR. LEONARD PREYRA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I won't be taking my full hour. It has been a long day and (Interruptions) Oh, if you want me to I could, but I know there are lots of people waiting here to come on as well.
I have a few short questions, as I was saying earlier, related to my role as Youth Critic, as well as two constituency issues. I spoke earlier about the McEvoy inquiry and how important it is to pay attention to some of the recommendations relating to turning off the supply of criminals, particularly Recommendation 26 which deals with collaboration and coordination, and Recommendation 30 which deals with alternate ways of addressing criminal activity, especially in the early stages, the overall objective being the early identification, intervention, coordination, et cetera, to cut off the supply of criminals. I think the McEvoy inquiry did a wonderful job of looking at those issues, especially on the supply side, if we can call it that.
I also want to thank the Halifax Peninsula Community Health Board, a group that does some wonderful work in my constituency, that also advised me on this issue, along with a number of other groups.
When we left off just before the other Party took over, we were talking about the Gus Reid case and I just wanted to make a final comment about that. Gus Reid, as I was saying, was someone who was appealing to me, as his MLA, but also appealing to the Ministers of Justice and Community Services, the Disabled Persons Commission, the Human Rights Commission, and all that, saying, here I am, a person with a disability, and my government and the agencies that are ostensibly there to protect and promote and secure my rights are just not fighting on my behalf.
There was an advisory committee that initially entertained appeals by people with disabilities. That advisory committee lost the right to hear those appeals. He was advised that he should go to the Human Rights Commission and, lo and behold, the Human Rights Commission says, we don't have the authority to hear your complaint.
Now when we left off, the minister was - I want to make sure you hear the question, because I think what happened at the end of the last question was that you didn't hear the question and I didn't hear the answer. The question was, to what extent is the Department of Justice willing to create a space for people with disabilities or create a body or allow the Human Rights Commission to hear appeals?
I wasn't asking the department to make every public building that had been built in the last 200 years accessible, that wasn't the question. The question was, what happens to
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people with disabilities when they have a complaint against the government or the regulatory body that says, I have effectively been denied my right of access to this particular place, because the government didn't take any action to ensure that this building or this space would be accessible? So it's not a question of asking the government to get involved in the building of buildings, or complete renovation of buildings, saying, where do people with disabilities go when they want to appeal a case? Or is the minister saying that you're willing to do it yourself - are you willing to hear appeals from people with disabilities? They have to have a place to go.
MR. SCOTT: My understanding is that this actual case that the member is bringing forward is that the commission can hear those types of cases, but they have to be specific cases about a specific issue as opposed to just a general complaint about all public spaces. So if there was a specific issue that a person in Nova Scotia wanted to bring forward, the Human Rights Commission can hear that, if it's a specific issue about a specific service or accessibility to a service or facility. But just to bring a general complaint forward, that's different, and again, the commission can only - the commission may end up making some sort of a recommendation but that's the only power that it has.
As far as any legislative change, that's a decision whether government would want to do that and this government hasn't made that decision.
MR. PREYRA: Now, maybe I misunderstand the position of the Human Rights Commission, but there are specific complaints there that say the Gaming Authority or the various agencies named, the various agencies named in that case - and the minister has the documents in front of him. I don't expect you to read it now, but I would hope that you would look at it and maybe respond in due course.
MR. SCOTT: Well, just for clarification, my understanding is that complaint was not about a specific location or locations, it was generally about public space, so . . .
MR. PREYRA: I'm getting to that.
MR. SCOTT: Okay.
MR. PREYRA: What the complaint is, and I understand that, on one hand the Human Rights Commission can hear cases where someone explicitly prevents someone from getting into a space or establishes rules where someone cannot occupy a certain space. Those are sins of commission, I would call them, where something is overtly done, those are specific cases. These are cases of omission, where failure to act and failure to protect and failure to secure those rights has led to an effective denial of access, or because the government didn't require a restaurant or didn't establish a Building Code or didn't say when this public space was being constructed that it had to be accessible, that error of omission was, in fact, a denial of rights.
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MR. SCOTT: Again, I guess I can only - you know if there's a specific issue or a specific location, then the commission would hear the complaint. If you're talking about a general policy of government, then that's a decision of the government, whether or not the government would want to consider a legislative change to ensure that the issue you're talking about could be addressed or not, that's a decision the government would have to make, whether they wanted to follow that path, I guess. So that would be something - that's a policy decision of the government.
MR. PREYRA: No, I understand that. All I'm doing is - the commission has sent this person with a disability to his MLA saying, raise it with the government. I am bringing the documents forward, I am raising it with the government. I am saying look at the document, take it to your Cabinet colleagues. I believe the case has merit, I believe it's a serious gap in the policy, but I don't make government policy. I'm saying I'd like you to consider it and maybe get back to me and let me know what course of action the government intends to follow.
MR. SCOTT: I will.
MR. PREYRA: Thank you. I have a third question, perhaps less complicated. A number of women's groups in my constituency, transition houses, shelters, Avalon Centre - there are several, unfortunately more than we would like to see, at least not so much more of them, we'd like to see more support, but we'd like to see less reason for them - have asked me about a committee that was established in the Department of Justice - I believe, Ken Winch was that person - that looked into the issue of violence against women, particularly the establishment of a specialized domestic violence accord. There was quite a thorough investigation at that time and the impression was that there was almost unanimity that a specialized domestic violence court would help at a number of different levels. I'm wondering whether that committee reported, what were their recommendations, and what is the government doing to address that need?
MR. SCOTT: The member's right about the committee and the committee has considered various options which are before the department now. Consideration is being given to those options, they have been explored and they're being offered.
MR. PREYRA: Are those discussions and those reports available for public consumption, to see what options are being looked at?
As I understand it, the committee itself was quite a wide-ranging committee. Most of the people who were participants in that have praised the committee for its work and they really wanted to know what had happened. They would like to see some further follow-up from that.
MR. SCOTT: These are participants on the committee, you mean?
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MR. PREYRA: People who had been interviewed or people who had been consulted - front-line people.
MR. SCOTT: I can tell you at this point in time - obviously it's an internal document that would not be made public but, however, that doesn't mean a public document won't be prepared and released from their deliberations.
MR. PREYRA: There is a great need for it. If I could, without getting into trouble here, I'd like to talk about two cases in particular, particularly relating to the dominant aggressor, an assessment the police, domestic violence coordinators do. They assess someone as a high risk - lethality, for example - at the highest level. Those abusers - if I can call them that - are designated as such and a number of special conditions are imposed on them.
Unfortunately, at least with two cases that I can think of, when they get to the courts, the courts don't take into account this assessment of the threat or the risk to the other spouse or the other partner and you come up with situations where the court orders certain outcomes that really don't fit with what the domestic violence coordinators found at the beginning. It puts people at risk, particularly women. I was wondering how you establish that linkage and people have said the specialized court is one way of dealing with those kinds of issues, where you have judges and court officers who are sensitive to the issue, who get into the habit of consultation with these various front-line groups and then you get a result that's fair to all parties.
[9:00 p.m.]
But you have situations like this - and we talked earlier about the McEvoy inquiry - where you have these two separate silos. Another case, the RCMP refused to allow for child visitation handovers to occur at RCMP headquarters because they found them too dangerous. So they had these handovers of children occurring in unsupervised spaces because there was no location where they could do those kinds of things. There seem to be a lot of silos and a lot of gaps, and these groups are saying you need to do something more to reduce the risk of women, in particular, but also to have outcomes that are more fair.
MR. SCOTT: The domestic violence spousal abuse initiative has been undertaken by the department, and I know over the last number of years it's continued to be strengthened and expanded. I took part in that training myself as a trainer of other police officers and I can tell you what my experience has been with the zero tolerance and the pro-charge initiatives underway in this province.
There may be isolated cases where - I'm sure the information the member has brought here is factual, but my experience has been that the police, the Public Prosecution Service, the judges take the issue of spousal violence and assaults very seriously and act very, very appropriately. Again in my own experience, when the courts are made aware of the facts and
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there's any suggestion of any type of violence or a threat, usually - and in fact I would say in all cases now - there's incarceration. There are certainly steps to ensure that there's no contact and there are emergency orders that you can put in place right away where the victim is placed in charge of the property and that the accused is to have no contact.
There are all sorts of initiatives that can be undertaken to ensure that those people are protected. Again, there may be some situations maybe where, I don't know if the right information is not shared, or what the reason would be, but I think there's a lot of effort going in to ensure that those concerns you're talking about are not happening in this province.
In the Valley there was further training again for police officers, stakeholders , the Public Prosecution Service, probation officers, to ensure that everyone is aware of each other's roles, how important an issue is, how information can be shared, and how these issues are dealt with by the court to ensure that very thing the member is talking about here tonight. So there's a tremendous amount of effort being put into protecting those who are victims of spousal assault.
MR. PREYRA: Those are all the questions I have but I did want to encourage the minister again to look at this idea for specialized domestic violence court. I believe that there is a model in New York where they use domestic violence courts quite effectively and certainly we should consider any option that would, you know, provide a more just and a more fair outcome.
I did want to just conclude, I had meant to earlier, but to thank the minister for the initiative at St. Pat's, the young offenders initiative. I believe it's a good pilot project and I hope that it succeeds because it does deal with Recommendation 30 and early intervention and early diversion, but thank you for your patience and for putting up with a very long day. I think I'm the last person.
MR. SCOTT: Thank you. This is a point of fact I guess that you mentioned about New York. Actually the minister in British Columbia talked to us about that in Newfoundland and Labrador. In fact, we just received information from New York about what they've done in regard to the issues you're talking about here tonight. So we have some information now that we are reviewing.
MR. PREYRA: Could you get me some of that information? Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll call on the minister now for some closing comments.
MR. SCOTT: Thank you very much. I just wanted to offer my appreciation to the staff, they're all here tonight. Their attention here tonight and their offering of assistance is very much appreciated. Thank you.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E13 stand?
Resolution E13 stands.
Resolution E18 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $383,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the FOIPOP Review Office, pursuant to the Estimate.
Resolution E20 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $2,105,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Human Rights Commission, pursuant to the Estimate.
Resolution E24 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $356,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Nova Scotia Police Complaints Commissioner, pursuant to the Estimate.
Resolution E29 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $17,647,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Public Prosecution Service, pursuant to the Estimate.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolutions carry?
The resolutions are carried.
We'll take a quick recess.
[9:07 p.m. The subcommittee recessed.]
[9:10 p.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I would like to welcome the Minister of Natural Resources and his staff.
The honourable Minister of Natural Resources.
HON. DAVID MORSE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and it certainly is a pleasure to be here defending the estimates of the Department of Natural Resources. I am pleased to present the 2007-08 budget and business plan for the Department of Natural Resources, but before I do, I would like to take a moment to introduce a few of my very capable staff who are with me today, and give you a very brief overview of the department's responsibilities.
Staff who are here with me today are: Deputy Minister Peter Underwood, who is no stranger to this Chamber, this being his 13th budget - and I'm happy to say that I'm his 14th
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minister as opposed to 13th; also, no stranger to this Chamber is Weldon Myers, who's the Director of Financial Services at our Corporate Services Unit for Resources - he also, of course, provides this role to a number of other departments and has spent a lot of time here already during this session; also, Patricia MacNeil, who is in the audience, who is better known as our all-terrain vehicle guru - she can fix just about any dilemma, give her enough time - she's our Executive Director of the Planning Secretariat; and we also have our very capable new Director of Communications, Diane LeBlanc. Tomorrow we will have some more of our executive directors, but because of the hour we are going with a more modest staff.
Mr. Chairman, the mission of our department, simply put, is to build a better future for Nova Scotians through the responsible management of our natural resources. What that means, in a nutshell, is my department is about balance. The traditional view of the department as being the hewers of wood and the diggers of mines is no longer an appropriate description of the Department of Natural Resources. The balance is needed there to support and promote environmental protections that will keep our province clean and green for future generations and to still support the industries and activities that depend upon our natural resources to foster our provincial economy and especially our rural economy as, by its nature, natural resources is rural as opposed to urban.
This is a delicate balance, one that I admit does not satisfy all people at all times which, of course, makes the position of being minister or a member of the department much more interesting. There will always be differing viewpoints and differing demands and it is sometimes difficult to find common ground. I should point out, however, that the staff in my department are very good at performing this balancing act; scientists, experts, clerks, technicians, executives and others who work in the department's many divisions have become very masterful practitioners of what is often called integrated resource management. That means they are very good at weighing how the management practices of one resource will affect the others and at building relationships that make the most efficient and most sustainable use of all resources.
[9:15 p.m.]
In 2006-07, my department set out four strategic goals in its business plan, four goals that it would use while building that better future for Nova Scotians. Those goals were: to increase awareness and understanding of the sound natural resource management practices and principles; to continuously improve departmental strategies for managing natural resources and specifically Crown land; to improve internal departmental planning processes and management systems; and fourthly, to improve the department's work environment and the capacity of staff to deliver departmental programs and services. In other words, the staff in my department set out not only to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of how they do business, but to put new emphasis on helping Nova Scotians get the information they need
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to make informed decisions so that they, too, can take action. There is considerable evidence that these goals are being accomplished.
I would offer the following. As many of you are well aware, I am proud of the integral role my department played during the past fiscal year in acquiring some amazing properties that will help Nova Scotia become a cleaner and greener place to live and raise our children. I just want to acknowledge the applause and encourage the Opposition members to do likewise if they should so choose.
We made immense strides in this province's efforts to acquire land with special values on behalf of all Nova Scotians. We purchased coastal gems like Backmans Island, Andrews Island, Micou's Island and Coveys Island and made strategic investments in land that will give Nova Scotians access to the breathtaking view at Cape Split. We completed a complex and mutually beneficial deal with Bowater Mersey Paper Company Limited in one year instead of two, and we protected inland waterways and habitat for endangered species such as the Blanding's turtle.
But I want to be clear that we did more than simply acquire property. My department also demonstrated its commitment to ongoing stewardship by partnering with community organizations like the Mahone Bay Islands Conservation Association and the St. Margaret's Bay Stewardship Association, two amazing organizations that not only advocated for the acquisition of some islands off of the South Shore, but also contributed significantly to the cost of acquiring them - a tremendous reflection on those communities and those organizations. The department renewed and expanded an amazing relationship with the Nova Scotia Nature Trust, an organization that not only is a steward of the land but teaches private landowners how they, too, can take on that role - a relationship that I can say we in the department very much enjoy and are very pleased to continue in an enhanced role for another three years.
We finance more projects through the province's Habitat Conservation Fund. That funding is supported by hunters when they purchase the mandatory $3 wildlife habitat stamp on all hunting licences in Nova Scotia. Last year a total of $151,000 was awarded to partner organizations for projects that sustain our wildlife and wildlife habitat. In fact, since the conservation stamp program began in 2001, about $650,000 has been directed toward wildlife conservation and we added 12 Nova Scotia wildlife species to the province's endangered species list. That means that a total of 36 species are now protected under the Endangered Species Act, and that would be both flora and fauna.
The staff from my department hosted historic re-enactments, hiking, nature walks and presentations in provincial parks, providing a place for Nova Scotians to learn about the flora and fauna that make up habitats and the biosystems, and a place in which they can simply enjoy nature but, as I said, this department is about balance. So while we have been creating these wonderful opportunities to get up close and personal with our natural resources, my
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staff have also been providing the support and services for industries that employ thousands of Nova Scotians and keep the province's economic opportunities growing.
As an example, the total contribution of mineral production to gross domestic product is about $400 million per year. A wide variety of mineral products are manufactured in Nova Scotia, including gypsum, salt, coal, clay products, Portland cement, ready-mix concrete, brick, marble, building stone and slate. All of them fall within our purview. In fact, a study tabled in the Legislature in May showed that thousands of Nova Scotians benefit from the province's mining industry - more than 5,260 direct and spinoff jobs, most of them in rural communities.
These industries are also shifting their attentions to globally competitive businesses, businesses that deal with the modern requirements for sustainability. In April 2006, for example, my department announced an important scientific research program that will help us determine exactly how surface mine reclamation can support land use strategies in Nova Scotia. We have some challenges in this province in terms of abandoned mines and so I would just point out it's very important that we address that in a responsible fashion, which includes how we can properly vegetate the abandoned mine sites after reclamation.
A committee led by provincial experts in industry, academia, government and public interest groups, which can often contribute so much to these forums, will determine site selections for the study, review scientific literature and ecological studies, make recommendations for test vegetation plots, planting and monitoring of test plots, public consultation, and an active plan for reintegrating mine sites into the local environment.
Efforts to improve sustainable use of our forests continue as well. My department, for example, has worked with stakeholders to draft proposed regulatory amendments that will further improve the sustainability of our forests, increasing the health of private woodlots by providing more silviculture treatment options, flexibility for uneven-aged stand and hardwood management.
Other challenging initiatives involve working with representatives of the off-highway vehicle industry, and others, as one of a number of government departments heavily involved in the implementation of Nova Scotia's off-highway vehicle plan. Few other files, perhaps, better exhibit the often conflicting demands of our Natural Resources portfolio, but few other files better exhibit how we can mange all things more effectively by working together collaboratively.
My staff have worked carefully with our partners and other departments like Health Promotion and Protection and Justice, off-highway vehicle manufacturers, ATV and snowmobile associations, users of ATVs, landowners, and individuals concerned about the protection of our environment, to implement an action plan that will address the wants and needs of people who love to partake in the sport, with the rights of private landowners, the
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safety of Nova Scotians and the need to protect our environment all properly taken into consideration.
It is, as I'm sure you can appreciate, a task that can cause consternation by times and relies heavily on the art of compromise. That is why I am so intent on further fostering and developing a relationship with the ministerial advisory committee - that group of dedicated Nova Scotians representing all of the partners I have just mentioned and many more. These people are offering this province their time and expertise as volunteers, and their efforts at understanding and compromise in order to help government and Nova Scotia, and indeed all Nova Scotians, move closer toward not only the regulatory needs, but the lifestyle commitments for healthy, responsible off-highway vehicle use by all Nova Scotians.
Mr. Chairman, I said I would offer only brief remarks and I want to leave plenty of time for any questions from my honourable colleagues, so let me quickly note that during this past year, my staff, along with Feed Nova Scotia, the Nova Scotia Federation of Anglers and Hunters, Eastern Woods & Waters magazine, and novascotiahunting.com initiated a marvellous new program called Hunters Helping the Hungry. This program allowed hunters to donate some of their deer meat to Feed Nova Scotia, simply by dropping it off at a participating licensed meat cutter. I am pleased to say that more than 300 kilograms of deer meat was made available to Feed Nova Scotia during the 2006 hunting season. I think that's a fabulous start and I think it bodes well for future seasons and is a great reflection on the compassion of our hunting community.
Under a mutual aid resource sharing agreement, established in the early 1980s, three of my department's forest fire commanders went to British Columbia to help battle fires that ravaged the south eastern area of that province. We will continue to collaborate with our colleagues in other departments on such important joint projects as the province's heritage and water strategies, and exploration and effective implementation of new title initiatives.
DNR is also the host department for the Resources Corporate Services Unit, which provides financial, human resource and IT-related services to the Departments of Agricultural and Fisheries, Environment and Labour, Energy, Finance, the Emergency Measures Organization, and of course Natural Resources. That's how we have Weldon here with us, again, today.
Mr. Chairman, through sustainable management, we are able to support the many competing demands placed on our natural resources. Again, our balanced approach supports sustainable economic growth. It also enables us to still meet our protection and conservation-related responsibilities. This support will be the focus of the department's programs and activities for the upcoming year. I thank you for this opportunity to make those brief opening comments and look forward to your questions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Pictou East.
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MR. CLARRIE MACKINNON: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'm delighted to have this opportunity to put some questions to the minister and staff, and I realize that there is good representation here tonight, although the minister has indicated that it is modest representation. I am going to save some of the policy questions for tomorrow when I have some time, but I'm going to hit on a number of things tonight.
One that I'd like to start with is a question that I have asked the minister in the House on three different occasions - that sort of totals nine questions. I have sort of gotten the same response from him on each occasion, so I'm hoping in the estimates I might get a little further information. I have put this to him on so many occasions when I have asked for support for public consultations on the new Natural Resources strategy, and have suggested very strongly that it be carried out by an independent third party, such as Voluntary Planning. I have gotten the response so often:
"Mr. Speaker, I thank the member opposite for bringing up the question. It's very important to include broad public consultation anytime you move forward on reviewing a strategy or creating a strategy for a department. I look forward to hearing from Nova Scotians and having their input in dealing with the forestry strategy, the mining strategy, the park strategy and, indeed, the biodiversity strategy. It's important to me to hear from them so that at the end of the day, we get it right for Nova Scotians."
Having said that, the minister, on numerous occasions - it's almost ditto, ditto, ditto in other situations. Now, I'm going back to May 13, 2005, when the former member, Mr. Deveaux, was asking, "What is the timeline for the strategy? Are there public meetings and so forth?" The minister of the day, Mr. Hurlburt, says:
"Absolutely. Mr. Chairman, the strategy, we're just getting going on it now, as we speak. It's internal right now, and then we're going to be going out for public consultation and partnering and looking at different organizations and groups, and looking at ways we can enhance and improve our park system that we have here in the province."
There are questions about strategy from the member for Hants East, and so on and so on and so on. I just would like to put to the minister, in asking the question that was asked back in 2005, can you give us some kind of a timeline for the strategy and are you, in fact, going to involve Voluntary Planning?
[9:30 p.m.]
MR. MORSE: First of all, Mr. Chairman, I want to, as I consistently do, thank the Official Opposition critic for his comments. I also think it might be appropriate to suggest that even though we all have a job to do in the House, I must say that there has probably been
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no department where it has been so congenial with both the NDP and the Liberal critics, I enjoy their questions. You have to have a bit of a sense of humour in this job in order to last for a time - that may be not be a guarantee that you last for a time, but I think it certainly is a help.
I think that the honourable member was alluding to his question of a couple of weeks ago where he accused me of being consistent and polite. I want to tell the honourable member that I went back afterwards and I passed on to my deputy and some of my senior staff that I had been accused of that in Question Period. I would say that if the honourable member was to look in a mirror, he would probably also find that he is consistent and polite, and that's probably why he gets it in return - both honourable members, from both Parties.
You asked about the strategy. The strategy is hugely important to the future of this province. Natural resources are obviously a primary industry, an ingredient in much of the economic activity that still happens in Nova Scotia. It's certainly an integral part of the rural fabric. So undertaking a commitment to do a strategy, a review of our strategy, not just in forestry or not just in mining but also in parks and the whole question of biodiversity, which is how all of the living organisms and other aspects of nature link together into an interdependent environment, is something that we do not undertake lightly.
If the honourable member is suggesting that we have taken some time to get it right, I hope that when the strategy is released, which I would say is in the very near future - and when I say the strategy is released, I should say the process that we intend to undertake to carry out the strategy review - that he will say we've got it right. A tremendous amount of time went into researching best practices, not just in Canada but, in fact, globally and Patricia MacNeil, who is with us here today, our executive director of that division, did extensive research and we did some brainstorming.
Since the honourable member made reference to a question from a previous Minister of Natural Resources and his answer, there have been some extra suggestions made in the meantime and there has been some discussion with, I would say, a balance of stakeholders as to how we can bring this forward in a way that inspires confidence in the outcome. If you don't get the process right, you're not likely to have confidence in the outcome.
The draft is moving through the approval process. I'm not at liberty to release the specifics until it has been signed off by Cabinet but I would anticipate that if the honourable member wanted to join me in my office, it could well be even before the end of the month - and I would extend that to both honourable members - to discuss it, I'd be happy to do so. I've also advised some of the stakeholder groups that I'm looking forward to discussing what we've done. I think that it fairly addresses the concerns of the honourable member.
MR. MACKINNON: Thank you very much, Mr. Minister - Mr. Chairman, to the minister, I do have to say that the minister has developed a good rapport, I believe, with both
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Opposition critics, and I thank him for that. I appreciate the opportunity to sit one on one with this minister and be able to talk very frankly and sincerely. I believe that he has, in fact, responded to a number of requests that I have put to him and has done it favourably. However, my question was really - and I appreciate that offer, as well, in relationship to sitting down with the minister within 30 days - has the decision been made? Is it internal, external or, you know, is Voluntary Planning involved or isn't it? Like it was sort of two questions: yes, no, yes, no.
MR. MORSE: I'm not able to allude to the details of the final plan, because ultimately the final plan will be determined by Cabinet, but what I did allude to was that the considerations you have brought forward, as to what you would like to see in the plan, have all been contemplated in what has gone forward to Cabinet. Ultimately, Cabinet will make the decision but I think that the concerns of the honourable member will certainly be shared with Cabinet and it's my hope that Cabinet's decision will be reflective of what he's brought here today.
MR. MACKINNON: Moving on to something that is current, I went to a press conference today. The Friends of Point Pleasant Park had a press conference in relationship to the brown spruce longhorn beetle. There seems to be a train of thought that we are not being firm enough with Ottawa, with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, in relationship to the expanding zones and so on. I wonder if you could elaborate somewhat, Mr. Minister, in relationship to what has been taking place with Ottawa.
MR. MORSE: The regulatory authority rests with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. As I was quoted as saying, as far back as the late Fall, early winter, our tool is that of moral suasion but we were pleased when the Canadian Food Inspection Agency invited the stakeholders, which includes the provincial government, to form an advisory committee to them and they have worked out what I think is a more effective and efficient alternative to an expanded quarantine zone. There were negotiations going on as late as today and they may be continuing on, but as of this morning they were still trying to work out the final agreement as to how they might incorporate this plan that was brought forward by the stakeholder groups. I think it's fair to say that the plan is much more aggressive at going after the beetle, I think it would lead to a better control of the spread of the insect.
I am left with the impression that the quarantine zone has almost been like an insect wildlife sanctuary where the efforts to actually eradicate this alien insect species have perhaps waned somewhat in the last year. I think that the industry recognizes the seriousness of this insect to its ability to market its products and is willing to take up the challenge. I think that if you have the whole industry pulling together to try to control this insect that we will have greater success. I am disappointed I'm not in a position to make an announcement that we've reached an agreement but I can definitively say that the negotiations have been constructive, have been exhaustive and the department, through correspondence and staff, correspondence from me with Minister Strahl, has been entirely supportive of the process and
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the stakeholder group and very appreciative that the Canadian Food Inspection Agency encouraged us to help them reach a better solution.
MR. MACKINNON: The Friends of Point Pleasant Park maintain that the brown spruce longhorn beetle has been with us for much longer than others are, in fact, saying. They are also saying that it does not attack healthy trees. What are your forestry people saying in response to those two assertions?
MR. MORSE: I think that the question of when the brown spruce longhorn beetle arrived on the shores of the province is a matter of speculation and then, of course, it's a question of how quickly did it multiply once it established itself. Presumably, in Point Pleasant Park, the suggestion is that it came off perhaps pallets that were brought in by European ships. So whether it's been here for 10 years or whether it's been here for 100 years, it's really irrelevant. We have a challenge and we have to deal with it. In terms of expertise about the insect, we do have entomologists within the department and I certainly rely on their scientific expertise to guide me in the department. So if you have a scientific question, we can get you a scientific answer.
MR. MACKINNON: First, I must say that the stakeholders did come together and I do have a copy of the plan that was developed. Has the importance, the significance of this actually been relayed in strong enough terms to Minister Strahl? Is there a realization of the consequences of this pest on our industry here in Nova Scotia? How strongly have we gone after this minister to ensure that we are not subjected to quarantine zones that are going to hurt our industry so badly?
MR. MORSE: I think the question is whether we made sure that there was a balance in the final decision. To the member's question, I can tell him that I have written Minister Strahl twice, and I think it's fair to say that one of those letters was primarily written personally and then scrutinized by staff. I was very pleased with his response to the initial letter, which would be the more comprehensive one. I have spoken to him on the telephone, a conference call, and more recently, as the negotiations were hitting the critical point, through his chief of staff, Laurie Throness, I also conveyed my concerns as the progress of the negotiations were trickling back to us in the department.
[9:45 p.m.]
I can tell you that the industry is also very well served by Diana Blenkhorn of the Maritime Lumber Bureau, a world-class expert in the industry. She is intimately aware of the legislation and all of the other regulatory challenges of operating in that environment and is doing a great job in the head-to-head negotiations, representing the members of the Maritime Lumber Bureau, and we have been working collaboratively with her. The member would recall that recently I actually did a resolution in the House acknowledging the work of Diana
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Blenkhorn and her staff at the Maritime Lumber Bureau, and we enjoy that working relationship.
So to answer your question, yes, it has been hands-on with Minister Strahl. I do feel that collectively, between Dianna Blenkhorn and our own efforts, perhaps channelled through me, we have made Minister Strahl aware of the seriousness of this problem. I think it's probably fair to say that it has assisted in having everybody look at a more balanced approach to containing this insect pest and trying to allow a commercial response to controlling its spread as opposed to one that's a more bureaucratic, extended quarantine zone.
MR. MACKINNON: I understand that there have been, Mr. Minister, new positive interception areas, 18 of them at one point. So the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is doing a lot of work on identifying the supposed expansion of the beetle. My fundamental concern, I believe, is that I'm more concerned about humankind's use of the forest than the beetle's, and certainly the use of forests that may have had some positive interceptions. I believe that the penetration is not all that deep sometimes within the trees, and I'm wondering about use of trees that are in the various areas where the expansion seems to be taking place.
MR. MORSE: I just wanted to be careful that I didn't compromise any of the negotiations, but I think it's fair . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Five minutes.
MR. MORSE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think it's fair to say that the focus is on the bark. There's a proposal that there be a certification system put in place that we hope ultimately will be administered by the Maritime Lumber Bureau, but overseen ultimately under the regulatory authority of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. It all surrounds bark and what's done with the bark residue. Large chips with bark in it potentially could carry the beetle, also sawlogs with the bark still on them, and bark and hog fuel. So these are all areas that would require certification, that the documentation would accompany the wood fibre to its next destination, and it would have to be handled in the prescribed manner in order to be in compliance. So a lot of thought has gone into this.
Again, it's better to have a team of concerned people who all have a tremendous stake in the outcome. I think that what the Canadian Food Inspection Agency has been encouraged to do to help in the industry, and Minister Strahl, and perhaps some moral suasion from our department, is to enlist the support of an army of people who want to curtail the spread of this beetle and mitigate the commercial damages.
MR. MACKINNON: Thank you very much, Mr. Minister, I do appreciate what your department is trying to do. In the couple of minutes that are left, perhaps I'd just deal with a couple loose-end items, one of which I raised with you.
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MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The time for tonight has expired and we will continue tomorrow.
[The subcommittee adjourned at 9:52 p.m.]
