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HALIFAX, FRIDAY, JULY 14, 2006
SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY
12:42 P.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Alfred MacLeod
MR. CHAIRMAN: Good morning, I call this meeting to order. We will continue with the Estimates of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations.
The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park.
[Due to technical difficulties a portion of the questioning is inaudible.]
MS. DIANA WHALEN: Can you tell me how you envision it actually working, in terms of the mechanics of this, if I have an oil heater and I fill up with oil, what do I do as a consumer to get this rebate? Is it point-of-sale, is there anything I need to do to take action?
HON. JAMES MUIR: It will be point-of-sale, right off the invoice.
MS. WHALEN: So no separate action or application or anything like that?
MR. MUIR: No, obviously application-based is much more expensive to administer and there are all kinds of hiccups with application-based programs and I think we're all well aware of that, and it's universal so application-based really didn't make much sense.
Let me reprhase that, I have been advised that one of the things that would be application-based is for kerosene because most people can go buy that from a hardware store.
MS. WHALEN: Then they send those receipts in. What about notification of the retailers or the people who chop wood and sell cords of wood, or anybody who is selling home heating fuels, how do they get notified to change their system of taxation?
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MR. MUIR: We have held considerable discussions with industry about this already and quite frankly, the great majority of people who are - I don't want to call them major suppliers - who do this as a regular part of their business would be aware of it but we will get back in more detail once we hold the discussions with CRA.
MS. WHALEN Have there been any concerns raised by the industry about changes or costs that they have to do to their own accounting systems in order to accommodate this change?
MR. MUIR: We haven't heard any. I know certainly, although it is a short time that I have been minister, I have not had any negative feedback at all and the department staff indicated to me that they haven't either.
MS. WHALEN: On the saving side, at the same time while you're introducing the HST rebate, you're also - we should really say, PST rebate, shouldn't we? There's a bit of a misnomer. I want to correct myself. I want to be sure that I'm using the right term.
MR. MUIR: It falls in the same category with saying that the province can unilaterally remove that tax. Which it can't.
MS. WHALEN: No, and I've always held with that view. That's okay, but it is a portion of the HST, not the whole thing.
MR. MUIR: That's right. It's the provincial portion of the HST.
MS. WHALEN: Right, which is why I know even during the election I was cognizant of that difference; that there's a little bit of a higher expectation perhaps from the community and again from consumers. So I just want to be careful there as well. So, I'm correcting myself in the terminology, but while that program is being introduced, we're phasing out and eliminating the Keep the Heat program, which I really do feel is a loss for low-income Nova Scotians, and this is a philosophical approach. Do we go to an across-the-board savings for everyone or do we continue to target our help to those who have the greatest need. I know that from your own constituency you will share my concern for people who did receive funds under the Keep the Heat program.
As we're looking at the costs here, I'm assuming again because Keep the Heat was something you had to apply for, you must have some significant savings in terms of staff allocations and administrative time. Would there not be a whole little office or division or something that's going to be phased out to do something else?
MR. MUIR: Well the Keep the Heat program like the other programs, it was kind of a gross cost projected which included administrative costs. As you know, one of the difficulties with the Keep the Heat program in its administration, or at least the planning for
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it, was that there was no real database in the province about what constituted a person who would qualify for those rebates, or for that assistance. They weren't rebates at that time - they were actual cheques and of course the furnace cleaning, the other things that went with. So, simply, to protect everybody, the government, when it was making its projections, I guess you would say, came up with a maximum projection.
We haven't got the final numbers on that this year because some of those furnace cleanings, the vouchers and whatnot, will not be exercised until the Fall. So the expected wrap up of the actual expenditure for the Keep the Heat program, we don't know that right now, simply because there's still a number of vouchers and things like that out there that are eligible to be redeemed.
MS. WHALEN: Could you give me the ballpark figure at where you stand today on those expenditures?
MR. MUIR: It's about $15.2 million.
MS. WHALEN: The estimate had been about $25 million. Am I correct?
MR. MUIR: Yes, that's correct. I can give you a little bit more detail on that, if you can just give me a second. This was the second or third year for that program, as the honourable member would know, and the number of applications that were received, were up 50 per cent over the previous year. So there were 43,000 applications for 2005-06, versus 26,000 applications in 2004-05. We expect to spend around $14 million, when the final figures are in this Fall.
Of the 43,000-plus applications that were received, to date, about 37,000 cheques have been issued, and that leaves 6,000 for which there were not cheques issued, but 3,000 of those were not deemed to be eligible, and there are still 3,000 claims under review, which would bring it up to the total of 43,000. So, conceivably, if these 3,300 applications that are still in various stages of processing.
[9:45 a.m.]
MS. WHALEN: So my question would be, how many people in the department were required in order to receive those applications, go through them, check income and make sure that they paid their bills directly and all the other criteria for that program? That's a significant number of applications and I know as well there was a number that you could call directly to get information so somebody must have been answering that phone as well.
MR. MUIR: About eight FTEs.
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MS. WHALEN: So that makes them available to redirect other programs this coming year?
MR. MUIR: Well, they weren't in the budget last year, so they basically - I suppose you would say FTEs directed specifically to that program.
MS. WHALEN: Why were they not in the budget last year, because as you mentioned the program's been ongoing?
MR. MUIR: If you remember the program was not part of the budget, if you remember it was an add-on - a good add-on by the way, but it was an add-on.
MS. WHALEN: Okay, but nevertheless you mentioned it existed for several years.
MR. MUIR: It existed the year before, but I guess if you look at it - perhaps one of the criticisms of the Keep the Heat program - people would say, well you've done it now, you did it last year and you're doing it this year, yet when you table your estimates you're not putting it in. This year the cost of the BST rebate program is included in the budget.
MS. WHALEN: Yes, and that is an improvement. I'm sure the Auditor General likes to see everything in the budget if possible. Again, I had actually only heard of it in a big way last year and I think that there was a significant amount of advertising done to support the program last year.
MR. MUIR: A lot of advertising done and I can somewhat liken it when I was in the Education portfolio and we had this and there is the sort of, I call it the forgiveness for Nova Scotia portion of student loans, and very attractive packages there. We contacted virtually every student in the province whom we thought would be eligible yet the return on that, people were saying well I didn't know about it. I think the Keep the Heat program is the second because each year it takes a little bit of time for public awareness to really reach fulfilment.
MS. WHALEN: I think having made it available it was proper to advertise it widely and it certainly was noticeable, the ads were . . .
MR. MUIR: I don't think it was the lack of advertising even when it was introduced, it's just that's the nature of people.
MS. WHALEN: Again, just to close that discussion on the Keep the Heat - I think there will be a tremendous demand this winter, I'm sure, when the cold weather hits and low- income people will be looking for some kind of assistance in order to get through the winter. The government may find that you have to return to that specific direct targeted assistance only because the demand is so great.
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MR. MUIR: When you're looking at the rebate program, although it is in the Keep the Heat category, it's an all-home energy cost so you've got your electricity thrown in there as well, direct cost of fuel maybe - there is the power bills where people are going to get relief as well.
MS. WHALEN: I appreciate that too. Again, in my riding, an awful lot of people live in apartments so you'll be aware of the shortcoming of the Keep the Heat program when people pay through their rent rather than directly. I had many calls on that regard and again in Clayton Park, more than 50 per cent - in fact it's over 60 per cent rent rather than own their own home. So you can appreciate how significant that is in that one riding. That's based on 2001 figures and we've built a lot more apartments than we have homes in that ensuing period.
MR. MUIR: Certainly the new system would be much better for your constituents than the old program.
MS. WHALEN: I think it will help an awful lot of apartment owners which - I'll take it to the next step - it could keep rents stable possibly and extra costs may not be there that need to be passed on. That's one that I'll be monitoring over the next few months to see how it works out because it is a concern to me that many people couldn't get any relief under Keep the Heat before and now that they don't pay directly it's still not going to give any benefit to them directly above the HST rebate. I know it will help the homeowners and we appreciate that, it's just that what's missing and as I said it's a policy decision, but what's missing is the direct target to the people who have the greatest need, which are many low income Nova Scotians. That is a concern to me.
On the budget again, I wanted to find out what your grants and contributions are made up of. That's the same page that had the 100 per cent increase in costs.
MR. MUIR: That's the HST, in prior years it was to Keep the Heat.
MS. WHALEN: Grants and contributions. So, that's just the cheques going out, or the cost to the retailers now, the difference, whatever it may be?
MR. MUIR: Yes.
MS. WHALEN: Okay. So what you'll do with that portion, the provincial portion - I guess there's no other money that needs to go out. It's lost money, is it not? Money that you don't collect that you would otherwise collect? But, you have to account for it on the books - is that right? I wonder why that amount? If that grants and contributions is the PST or the provincial portion of the HST, why is it not the amount you told me it cost, the $32 million? Your basic out-of-pocket cost, the amount that it's going to take out of the provincial coffers, $32 million, by introducing this program. Why wouldn't the grants and contributions be the
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same then, if that's how it's accounted for? I guess I want to know why the difference with grants and contributions?
MR. MUIR: Could you show me the page on that one?
MS. WHALEN: I'm on Page 16.9. It's Program Management and Corporate Services.
MR. MUIR: That figure is the rebate figure. The other $2 million would be included in the Operating Costs.
MS. WHALEN: Okay, I'm under Grants and Contributions. It's $30.5 million this year in the estimate.
MR. MUIR: Yes, and that's the rebates.
MS. WHALEN: Okay. And, last year, it was $13.2.
MR. MUIR: That was the Keep the Heat and that's what was expended in the prior fiscal year.
MS. WHALEN: Yes, we have to keep in mind you have some recovery from the Keep the Heat offsetting against the new program.
MR. MUIR: Yes.
MS. WHALEN: That clears it up for me. Thank you. I'd like to know your total staffing in the entire department - all the way through, top to bottom.
MR. MUIR: We have quite a large number of employees. It is 900 and some, I'm going to say 962 from memory and that is correct - full-time equivalents.
MS. WHALEN: How does that compare to last year?
MR. MUIR: We are up 47, that is accounted for because we've assumed some extra roles. If you would just hang on for one second, I had explained that in my opening comments last night. I'm going to just go back to them.
Late in 2005-06, Service Nova Scotia became responsible for financial institutions in the Nova Scotia Insurance Review Board. So, the full-time equivalents associated with those two organizations came to Service Nova Scotia. I also clarified it last evening, since then and since the estimate book was printed, the authority for those two organizations have moved again, this time to the Department of Finance.
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However, because they were assigned to this department at the time when the budget was being put together and the Estimates Books were being prepared, or were prepared or had been prepared at that time - we're well into the budget year now, we're going to keep those positions on our books this year. They'll move at the end of the fiscal year.
MS. WHALEN: It would seem the Department of Finance would be a better place for that, just by the sound of it.
MR. MUIR: We are just kind of a flow-through department, but that's kind of a characteristic. We collect money from the federal government and give it to the municipalities, and we do all kinds of things. Despite the fact that we have a relatively big budget, a lot of it is just straight in and out.
MS. WHALEN: I'd like to ask you about auditors in the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. I know that in the past there have been incidents, because you do handle so much money. When we had an opportunity to question the Minister of Finance, we did talk about auditing and the need to have controls throughout the entire Civil Service. I'm wondering if you could talk about your response, given that Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations is one of the largest departments in terms of the handling of monies.
MR. MUIR: I thank the member for that question. I'm going to try to find my note here. As you can remember last year, unfortunately the province had the unhappy situation of finding that an employee had not been totally honest in handling funds to the tune of about $300,000-odd. As a result of discovering that, and that theft took place over a period of years, the department did have an internal audit review of its processes and procedures - I think it was Grant Thornton who did that - in particular, a review of the cash receiving and refund processes. It was in that particular Business Registration unit.
A number of the recommendations that came as a result of their assessment of the processes have been implemented. A number of the recommendations involved information technology enhancement or replacement, and also some of the systems development projects which are underway are highly technical and require a reasonable amount of time to get them up and running. Also, Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations is in the process of redesigning the processes and hiring and training additional staff to monitor compliance with audit controls. Three new staff have been hired specifically for audit tasks.
Now, the report that was prepared in April of this year for the Auditor General indicated that about 35 per cent of the recommendations had been fully implemented, but a large number of the other recommendations are underway to address the deficiency. On the other hand, the Grant Thornton review identified some system weaknesses that can be addressed through the acquisition of a new rebate system. Phase one, to document the detailed system requirements, is now complete. Phase two, to determine the functional fit against six government-owned applications, was a success when identifying - I won't bother
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giving you the acronym - a suitable application form and through a customization, really, of the new rebate system. Phase three has that project in the initial stages of implementation from the design and development, and it's anticipated that the first implementation of that new system is going to be in the Fall of this year.
To be quite frank, there were some of the recommendations, a very few, which just didn't seem to be really good recommendations, and that happens quite often in these reports. So they were ones that were just practical to implement or they were already being implemented and they were missed in the audit or something like that.
MS. WHALEN: Were these the ones in the Grant Thornton review that you're replying to, or an Auditor General's review?
MR. MUIR: Well, the Auditor General looked at the Grant Thornton review.
MS. WHALEN: And commented. So you're responsible . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Time has elapsed.
The honourable member for Waverley-Fall River-Beaver Bank.
MR. PERCY PARIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning.
MR. MUIR: Good morning.
MR. PARIS: Yesterday I left off, before I passed the microphone to my colleagues, we were talking about the Assessment Service and I would just like to briefly return to that again. I understand, and I stand to be corrected here, that Cabinet gave approval, I think sometime during the winter, for having a proposal come forward respecting the project manager, for the implementation of the property Assessment Service for the transfer, for the transition. I guess my first question is to the minister, through the Chair, has that yet gone to Cabinet for approval or has it been approved at the Cabinet level, the proposal itself?
MR. MUIR: I'm trying to focus on your question, Mr. Chairman, could you repeat it for me? I don't quite understand it.
MR. PARIS: It's my understanding that on the Assessment Service that there was supposed . . .
MR. MUIR: The transfer?
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MR. PARIS: Yes, the transfer itself, a part of the transition is to provide for a project manager and part of this was supposed to go to Cabinet for approval with respect to the project manager itself, who was going to do it, is that correct?
MR. MUIR: Not for the project manager, no.
MR. PARIS: Not for the project manager?
MR. MUIR: No.
MR. PARIS: I know that the transition is going to go forward, so at what stage now, are we in the final stages of that transition as far as the transition is concerned itself?
MR. MUIR: We've made a lot of progress in discussions and negotiations and again with the municipalities and with the collective bargaining unit, but there has to be a bill that will enable that agency to be created and it will be introduced in the Fall.
MR. PARIS: It will be introduced in the Fall?
MR. MUIR: Yes.
MR. PARIS: So there will be a report that will be going to Cabinet or has gone to Cabinet?
MR. MUIR: There will be a report and recommendation prepared for Cabinet. I mean that's the way those things work, yes.
MR. PARIS: I guess my follow-up question would be the report that we're talking about right now, will that be shared with the Nova Scotia Government Employees' Union?
MR. MUIR: Well, if it's a Cabinet document, nobody gets Cabinet documents, but certainly with any decision by Cabinet, there is a communications portion of that. So, these decisions all have a communication plan associated with them so that would be available, yes.
MR. PARIS: I'm not sure if I understand what that means. So there would be a communication about the report itself but not necessarily the report would be shared with the union?
MR. MUIR: Well, as you know, the creation of this agency comes from an agreement between the UNSM and the provincial government. The UNSM has agreed that it wishes to proceed with this and over the past year, there have been negotiations with all of those affected - UNSM, our department and the collective bargaining organizations - to see that
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when this new agency goes into effect, it's not only efficacious and efficient, but it protects the rights of all of those who are, you know, for people who are going to be transitioned into that unit. Unions have been very - well, I mean you couldn't do it if you didn't work with them.
MR. PARIS: I want to move into credit reporting and I think that government is well aware and appreciates the importance of people knowing their own credit history and seeing their credit reports to protect against identity theft and fraud.
I think it was the month of March where the government declared March as Fraud Awareness Month. In that release, I just wrote down the other day, that Nova Scotians may access their consumer report for free by contacting one of the two main consumer reporting agencies in Canada - Equifax or Trans Union. Any inaccuracies should be corrected immediately as it may affect access to future credit.
Credit fraud is becoming - I don't think it's becoming, it is - an issue now for a lot of Nova Scotians. I'm wondering why is it that we can't access the credit reports on-line?
MR. MUIR: I've got clarification on that. The government, of course, doesn't compile that information itself. But there are two agencies in the province that do that. They are private agencies and they will provide that information, but they do it for a fee. The reason that is not on-line is, apparently, they would put it on-line for a fee to the consumer. Our legislation requires that information be made available to individuals free of charge.
MR. PARIS: Could you repeat that? I want to make sure this is going to sink in for me.
MR. MUIR: The government is not in the business of, I guess we would say, assessing or keeping record of a person's credit rating. There are private agencies that do that. There are two major ones in the province, one of them is Equifax and Trans Union. They have that information. They would put it on-line, but they would charge you, as an individual, a fee to retrieve that information. Our current regulations by government say that information must be made available to individuals free of charge.
So, if they're going to put it on-line, it's going to cost them money and they want to get it back from the consumer and our legislation says you can't do it. At least, you can put it on-line, but you can't get charged for it.
MR. PARIS: It would seem, I mean, when I did some research, what I noticed is that - what spurred my research was that in 2006, in May, I noticed that Mr. Estabrooks tabled a bill that would allow Nova Scotians to access, under legislation, do their credit checks on-line. Currently, the ability to access their credit reports over the Internet, like in some of the other provinces, wasn't permissible.
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MR. MUIR: I am not familiar with that bill. It was just introduced in the Spring?
MR. PARIS: Yes.
MR. MUIR: It died on the order paper. I'd have to go back to the response I made to the last question, that under Nova Scotia legislation, credit agencies cannot charge to provide credit information to consumers. If they put it on-line, which I'm sure they'd like to do, they want to be able to charge a fee to do that and currently if somebody has to pay to set that up and we want to get it back from those people whose credit rating we record or determine who want the information.
MR. PARIS: What I'm looking at right now is the form that you get on-line, this is one actually from Equifax. Have you ever looked at one of these? Have you ever seen one?
MR. MUIR: No.
MR. PARIS: What I'd like to do is certainly this morning anyway, I'd like to table one of these forms and sometime over the next little while if the minister would agree that in the future as critic for the NDP that he and I could have some sort of dialogue in the future around some of these issues surrounding personal credit reports.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Could you please give that to the Page to make copies for everybody. Thank you.
MR. MUIR: To be quite frank, to tell the member for Waverley-Fall River-Beaver Bank - if discussions with you would be useful I'm perfectly happy, but quite frankly it's a topic I'm really not familiar with.
MR. PARIS: Well, it's a topic that I'm not familiar with, as I said yesterday, it has been a hectic month with going through an election and finding yourself right in the thick of things without any prior training. However I'm feeling my way and I am managing. Before I turn things over to my colleague here, I want to end at least my portion of it by thanking the minister and by thanking staff for taking time out over the last couple of days that I've seen you here to come here to this meeting. I certainly look forward to future dialogue and building a relationship with all of you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth East.
MS. JOAN MASSEY: I thank my colleague for giving me a bit of time. How much time do we have?
MR. CHAIRMAN: You started at 10:00 a.m. so you have until 11:00 a.m.
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MS. MASSEY: I would like to talk this morning about Keep the Heat program. I was lucky enough to get in here a bit early. (Interruption)
MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, I apologize I don't hear quite as well as the other people. Sometimes that's a distinct advantage too but if you would, speak in the microphone.
MS. MASSEY: Okay, I will try my best. I would like to talk this morning about the Keep the Heat program, which was a very important program for constituents in Dartmouth East. The HST coming off certainly does make taxes fair for everyone in the province and there's no doubt about that. However, with the rising cost of energy that I know my constituents are going to be facing as well as everyone else across the province, I believe and I know my constituents believe that the Keep the Heat program is actually needed more than ever now.
I was fortunate enough this morning to be in here when the honourable member opposite was asking her questions about Keep the Heat and there were some very good questions and I certainly appreciate her talking about this issue. I think it's very important to remember that there are a lot of people in the province, that the $250 that they did receive on the rebate was very important to them.
[10:15 a.m.]
A lot of people in Dartmouth East are suffering from a lot of financial hardship, they face food insecurities, rent issues - there's a lot of people that have a lot of bills that they're having a hard time paying. I have constituents that are thousands of dollars behind in their electricity bills and some of these people I don't know how they're going to get these things paid off but it's a real hardship. The $250 really does make a huge difference, even though the average family will save around $150 through the HST being taken off. There still is going to be a huge void I know in my constituency.
Last winter I had constituents that - one specifically who I know is going through a hardship in trying to go through various government agencies to get some long-term disability and is really suffering, and in fact spent the majority of the winter in one room with an electric heater. He had already received the Keep the Heat - he had done that for his oil - and he had gone to the churches in the area which my office supplies a list of churches and non-profit organizations for people to contact. Of course the churches don't have an unlimited supply of funding available; they'd like to help as much as they can but that's limited and the non-profit organizations the same. It's the same as a food bank, they have these organizations set up so that they keep track of who's coming and accessing the very limited funding that they do have.
I really believe that the HST is good - good, Keep the Heat - I think we really need both of those. I think you're going to hear from a lot of people in Nova Scotia who are going
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to want to keep the Keep the Heat program and I think you have made a big mistake in getting rid of that. Things are not going to get better. They are going to get worse so I just really can't understand that program not continuing especially since listening to my honourable colleague opposite question when there has been some money poured into setting this program up, there were eight full-time staff people. I don't know if they were somewhere else doing something else and they came along and were put into this program, but these eight people are still somewhere unless they've been let go. We just heard this morning that your staffing is actually up by 47 more people, so it's not for lack of staff that the Keep the Heat program couldn't continue.
I still - even last winter, when people would phone my office that were in dire straights, some people didn't know about Keep the Heat program and I know we heard this morning that in fact there was advertising done and that in fact it's really become a program that has a higher awareness rate but even still there are people out there who didn't know it was in existence. In fact, I remember the Minister of Energy who sent out the little energy kits - they were invaluable and people really were very thankful. The MLAs were each given 10 and various people that phoned my constituency that were in a bad position, I did take them and deliver them to them and they were quite happy to have those.
I really just feel it's my duty as the MLA for Dartmouth East to come here and advocate on their behalf because that's what my job is, to say I think you should bring that back, Keep the Heat. I think you are really going to hear a lot from people, especially too, that the HST is not going to come off until January and people will already be filling up their oil tanks long before then.
The nights start to get cold in November and I just don't want to see if these people that I have come to know in my constituency, that had such a hard time last winter - it is going to be worse this winter. I'm very concerned for them, I'm concerned for their health, their mental health. I'm concerned for those kind of issues that revolve around, if you have children and you're spending the winter holed up in one room or a couple of rooms, that's just not conducive to a healthy lifestyle.
Other than asking, are you going to bring back Keep the Heat, I really don't know what more I can say. I guess I can ask, is it totally off or is there a possibility, with enough public outcry, that it would come back?
Also, I will ask a specific question, how much was spent on advertising Keep the Heat since you first started it?
MR. MUIR: I've been advised the advertising budget for last year was $200,000. I explained earlier to the member for Halifax Clayton Park, the Keep the Heat program ran for two years. The number of applications in year two was up by - it went from 43 to 26, and 17
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over 26 is a significant amount. It's not only the advertising, it was the fact the people knew the program was available so it was really two years of advertising as opposed to one.
MS. MASSEY: So you're saying it was $200,000 last year?
MR. MUIR: Yes.
MS. MASSEY: Do you know how much it was the year before?
MR. MUIR: It was $100,000.
MS. MASSEY: That is interesting that it was less the first year. Were there less months of advertising or why would it have been half?
MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the honourable member to repeat that question. I missed it.
MS. MASSEY: Last year it was $200,000, is that correct?
MR. MUIR: In 2005-06.
MS. MASSEY: Right. The year before?
MR. MUIR: It was $100,000.
MS. MASSEY: I'm just saying it's interesting that it was half as much the first year, but yet you're saying still some people were not applying for it that you thought may be able to apply for it.
MR. MUIR: One of the issues with the Keep the Heat program - there was no database available which would enable government to use firm numbers to determine its projections. We don't know how many people would have met the criteria required under the Keep the Heat program.
What the department staff was able to do, or was forced into, was making the best guess. If you were going to get into a program like this, clearly your best guess ought not to be low. If it's going to be a best guess, it's better to err on the high side and therefore there would be enough money allocated for the program. It would be very awkward if one got partway through the program and had to discontinue it for the lack of funds.
The estimates that the department used - don't forget that in neither year was this a budgeted program, it was a program which became available after the province determined
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that its fiscal situation, in particular, its revenues, were going to be such that this could be done.
MS. MASSEY: Thank you. I guess there were questions around when the money was not actually used - all the money that you did allocate actually was not used, people didn't apply, for whatever reasons. I think it is a good idea to at least have all your bases covered and have enough money in there so a best guess on how many people might have possibly applied and then making sure there was enough money in there to cover that.
I'm just wondering though, if the money that was not used could have been rolled over into something like helping people upgrade the insulation in their homes or this sort of thing. A lot of times - it might not be your department, but when you're visiting seniors' homes, a lot of seniors will tell me that they don't use upstair portions of their homes anymore because they try to keep those areas blocked off because they really can't afford to go out and upgrade their insulation, even though they know they need to. They're really struggling just to stay in their homes and put food on the table and buy their prescription drugs and these sorts of things. I'm just wondering if you have any comments and how you would interact, perhaps, with the Department of Energy or what have you, in those kinds of initiatives?
MR. MUIR: I can say that the Keep the Heat program, although best known because people got a cheque, there were other parts to it as well. In the program that was introduced in October 2005, depending on income and the criteria there, there was a $250 rebate possible on the cost of heating oil which was either oil or propane and $100 rebate for other sources, which would be things like electricity, wood, wood pellets, natural gas and coal. The other thing that was possible was the furnace maintenance service and a voucher for a furnace tune-up.
Then there were energy efficiency initiatives. You probably, as an MLA, saw these kits which were made available to certain people and they had the energy-efficient light bulbs and a variety of electrical box insulators and water restrictors. So it was really an energy efficiency kit.
Then there was a draw for homes that were heating with electricity - there were 3,000 electronic thermostats available, which would be a better quality of thermostat to control the heat better and there was a draw for those things. They were selected by draw, they went to 3,000 households.
Then there was a furnace repair and replacement program, which was administered by the Department of Community Services. As well, the department approached industry to see if industry would give discounts.
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The heating oil suppliers were approached to give those discounts - 2 or 3 cents a litre over and above any other discount to low income consumers. According to the notes that I have, only Esso responded to the government's request positively, although Boudreau's, which operates in Cape Breton, indicated they already had a similar program.
MS. MASSEY: Well, there you go. Thank you, minister. I mean, that's a list of great things that were done by the government to help people conserve energy and to help them out when you're forced to pay a certain amount for your oil. I still sit here in some form of disbelief to see that you axed all those great things.
[10:30 a.m.]
I took those energy efficiency kits and I opened it up and did my own home with it, just to see what was in it and what I could do with it. The people I did hand them out to always got back to me and said, they were great little kits. Certainly they wouldn't have been able to do those things on their own, within their own budget. So these 3,000 electric thermostats that were available by a draw, you didn't say how much money was available through the energy efficiency kits, I don't know how many kits there were, and the furnace maintenance tuneup. Those are all great things. So are none of those going to be continued?
MR. MUIR: Well the issue and the choice came down to, do you provide a program such as a PST rebate, which benefits just about everybody in the province, including those people who are what we would call those eligible who had been eligible for the low income fuel assistance program and they would benefit from it as well. We have gone from a $13 million program, I think, to about a $75 million program, so I don't know. The honourable member is saying that maybe we should not have gone with the PST rebate program and kept the Keep the Heat program instead.
MS. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Minister, through the Chair. No, that is not what I am saying. I hear what you are saying, you are saying it is all about choices. I think sometimes in life, we can have both things. I don't know why we can't have the HST and the Keep the Heat, especially since those things you listed are energy conservation. It wasn't only the rebate - it was these other things that really had a big effect and may have led people down the road further into doing things on their own, if they have that money. Taking away the Keep the Heat - I will go back and say it again - the average family will be saving $150 on their electricity bill but $150 is not $250, there is a difference. I think we are going to be impacting low-income seniors who are already impacted by a lot of things, and I don't think that is fair to them, and I cannot fathom taking away a program that really works. So I don't know if maybe I just don't understand it.
I am not saying anything is bad with the HST, no. It is a good thing other than it is not going to start until January - I think it should start earlier. I am saying that Keep the Heat was a great program that really worked well for people right across the province and certainly
[Page 629]
for people in Dartmouth East. I don't see why you can't make a choice and have both of those.
MR. MUIR: I have a comment, Mr. Chairman, that I didn't mention in the course of my conversations with either the member for Halifax Clayton Park or the member for Dartmouth East that the government has a $10 million education program to promote energy efficiency and that program is going to continue.
MS. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Through the Chair, I would just like to ask if the minister could explain what that education program is. I don't think I have heard that one before.
MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, that program falls under the Department of Energy, so I would be reluctant to try to give details without getting briefed more fully by that department.
MS. MASSEY: Thank you, Minister, and through the Chair, I am just wondering then if perhaps some of the things that were done through the Keep the Heat have been rolled over, maybe into the Department of Energy?
MR. MUIR: No, Mr. Chairman, the Keep the Heat program was through the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. Last year's Keep the Heat program is not being continued this year. The major change was the introduction of the PST rebate on all forms of home energy. Questions about what the Department of Energy is going to do, Mr. Chairman - again I say, I appreciate your interest but I really would be reluctant to try to respond on their behalf without a full briefing.
MS. MASSEY: Thank you, Minister. I think I have covered everything that I can cover on the Keep the Heat program, but before I turn back the program over to my colleague, I would like to just advocate on behalf of the people in Dartmouth East who are really trying to address their high property assessment issues. I know that months ago, I did an article in the Daily News Weekly about property assessments. I had so many phone calls and people contact my office to just really talk about property assessments and the issues they were facing through that.
Actually I have one gentleman who is willing to start a little group of people to get together and find out what they can do to maybe get things changed in the province because it is an issue that affects a lot of people in Dartmouth East, especially my seniors because they want to keep up their homes, they want to do these kinds of things and they are struggling just to keep the food on the table, as I have said before, and they really don't need these property assessments going up and they really just can't afford it. They are not going to be able to afford to stay in their own homes. I would just like to put in my two cents worth on that and I will turn it back over to my colleague. Thank you.
[Page 630]
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Waverley-Fall River-Beaver Bank.
MR. PERCY PARIS: As I said here yesterday and today, when I opened up yesterday and talked about assessments, and I remember I even discussed area rates and the increases that were getting taxed upon tax and then the learned member opposite followed up with some of the same concerns around assessments. I have heard I think there is a genuine agreement, yes, there are some things that government has done that have been good, there is no question about that. There are some things the government has done that they have taken away that hasn't been so good.
Are there other things that government can do? Well yes, I think there are. What we have heard, and certainly what I have heard and certainly not only from individuals within my riding but there are some commonalities that we, as MLAs, have with all voters in Nova Scotia. It is one around economics. It would appear to me that there is a large percentage of Nova Scotians who are not - Canada, Nova Scotia, a great place to live but it is becoming more and more difficult every day for Nova Scotians to live here. I hear around the table, no matter where I am, no matter where I go, and even in the House of Assembly, how expensive it is getting and some of that expense is due to government. So we have an opportunity, and I am going somewhere with this; if this is a common theme, I can't understand for the life of me, around HST removal, why is it that we look at September, October, November, December.
Now I don't have any statistics to substantiate this, I don't have any way of proving this, but I would say, my common sense tells me, and I know in Nova Scotia they say if you wait 15 minutes the weather's going to change, weather is so unpredictable in this province, but I would say December under most years is a very fuel-consuming month if I can say that.
During the month of December, a lot of people take vacations and I certainly want to recognize the diversity of this province and when I pick on December, because not everybody celebrates Christmas, but a large number of Nova Scotians do celebrate Christmas which means kids are home from school and often times parents are home from school. So that habit of parents that turn their heat down in the evening when they go to bed and leave it down until they get home that night becomes obsolete.
If you have kids home during the month of December, they're running in and out of doors, people are going in and out doing their Christmas shopping, visitors are coming in - there's lots of reasons for the door to be open and shut so heat is escaping all the time because you have a constant travel. Again, my common sense tells me that it would be a very heat-consuming month, not to mention all the things that go with those things around gift shopping - you have lots of reasons to use your house.
If there's a general agreement that we are becoming, we are at the stage now, and the honourable member talked about people in his riding losing their homes - well I know people
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in my riding that are up against it so where I'm going with this, if this is the case, if we're all sitting here and talking about how Nova Scotians are being more hard pressed every day, every year, then why are we waiting until January 1st to remove the HST? Why don't we do the right thing and remove it three or four months earlier? Give those individuals who are hard-pressed, up against it, give them that extra money so that they can go out and they don't have to go to the food bank.
Maybe it means a difference about buying that gift for little Tommy or little Jane or going to the Salvation Army. It's about human dignity and quality of life, to me it's about doing the right thing. We all boast about and brag about whether it is a better deal for today's families or working with today's families, I really don't give a darn what the slogan is but if we really care about Nova Scotians and the way that we treat people I say we remove that HST and we remove it now.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That's not really a question.
MR. PARIS: Well it's not a question, but I would like a comment.
MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, there's no question that the issue has to be responsive to the needs of Nova Scotians and one of the ways you are responsive to the needs of Nova Scotians is to keep a balanced budget. One of the things that you learn about, and I'm sure everybody's internalized in this House, is that most people have good suggestions, by the way. I think your suggestion is a good suggestion, I think the suggestion of the member for Dartmouth East is a good suggestion, but the good suggestion has to be tempered by fiscal ability to pay for it. We, like any government, construct a budget around the financial ability of the province and this is what we did.
MR. PARIS: Thank you. I guess my response to that is - I'm speaking with passion now, this is the passionate side of Percy Paris the MLA. I can't for the life of me - I appreciate and accept that comment. However, what I wrestle with was when we talked about doing things for the good of the whole and for the good of Nova Scotians, but I've got to struggle, I respect fiscal responsibility, but I tell you when I hear of those loans - I don't want to use the words forgivable loans because I don't know how it can be a loan if it's forgivable. But when I hear about loans and incentives that are given to corporations - again, I say this respectfully and I always caution people when they hear me speak not to misinterpret my passion with one of anger. I certainly don't want to send that message across because I'm not angry, it's passion and sometimes frustration.
[10:45 a.m.]
For the life of me, when I hear about fiscal responsibility, we still give loans out and give incentives to companies that come to our shores and six months later they're gone. I
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understand fiscal responsibility, but we can give on one hand, but the people that need the most, don't get.
I don't know if the minister would like to make a comment to my last comments or not, I'll leave that up to his discretion.
MR. MUIR: I note your comments.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The NDP still have about 15 more minutes.
The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto.
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Thank you. Minister, I will natter at you. I probably won't end up with a question, but I do have a point I want to draw your attention to. I'm going to raise it again with your colleague who's responsible for heritage matters, but under your portfolio, there is an issue that is a concern of mine and I think you ought to be aware of it and should spend some time thinking about. It actually has to do in part with protection of heritage buildings and also with issues associated with protecting some of the designated historic sites, including the Citadel.
I want to lay this out for you, because I've raised some of this with your predecessor in the portfolio some time ago and no action ensued that I'm aware of. The situation, I think, is only getting worse and I want to outline it for you in the hopes that you'll be able to have some discussions with your colleagues around the Cabinet Table who would have direct responsibility for this.
Let me start with the example of the Kelly building which is just down the street on Granville Street. This is the former Kelly Shoes - it's the brick building that's really just a facade at this point. It's under demolition and so on. This has been hanging around for a long time as an issue. I'll use this maybe as a point of entry to the whole issue of how it is that it might be useful to think about these points.
I'm sure you know that there are two types of designations of buildings as heritage buildings in Nova Scotia. Buildings could be provincially designated and therefore certain restrictions apply, including a prohibition against demolition without the permission of the province - but, then, of course, there's municipal designation. In cases of municipal designation under the Heritage Property Act in our province, it's possible for an owner to demolish the building after giving one year's notice of their intention to do so to the municipality.
There have been bills that have come forward in the past to change the timelines for municipal designation. One possibility is to extend that one year timeline to a five year timeline. I want to encourage you to think about this possibility. The idea of a delay is to give
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the government actors, the opportunity to try to work with the owners of the building to seek a solution to their perceived problem with their building.
One option is for the municipality to help find tenants for the building; the municipality might become a tenant themselves. Purchase is an option - the municipality might purchase the building. This has occurred in the past.
Something that I haven't really seen on the table very much, has been the province thinking about purchasing some of these buildings. I have to say that although I'm using the Kelly building as an example, of course there are buildings all across Nova Scotia in communities the province might actively look at. In your hometown, there was a big issue about the former city hall that went on for a long time and there were big efforts to try and find a solution - the dollars involved, I think, became prohibitive for the municipality. They might not have been prohibitive for the province if, in fact, there were a line item in the budget that every year allowed a certain number of dollars for purchases.
I understand that there is some money available at the provincial level to look at the possibility of such purchases. I'm encouraging you to think about expanding that amount of money and using it in an aggressive way around the province.
There are buildings out there - I'll give you another example in Halifax. On Barrington Street at the corner of Bishop, just the next building down from the Lieutenant Governor's residence, that's a lovely building that actually came onto the market a couple of years ago. The province could have purchased that building if there were an interest and if there was someone looking out for this, if there was a little bit of money out there. It's the kind of building in which offices could be placed - administrative offices for the government. Heaven knows, the government is always looking for different office space and there's a bit of moving around that happens within Halifax. Again, I don't want to limit it to HRM because there are such buildings all across the province.
First off, I'm encouraging you to think about the possibility of amending the existing legislation, plus looking at putting some money into the province actually buying buildings and using them in various communities around the province as a way to protect our heritage. Now, the Voluntary Planning Special Advisory Committee on Heritage Resources has just come out with its draft plan - it's out there for public comment. I think they're hoping for comments maybe by the beginning or end of September and they're looking at a November timeline for their final report. They, I think, were quite strong in suggesting that the province should do more to protect buildings. I believe it was one of their recommendations that the heritage property legislation be strengthened along the lines that I suggested - extending the time limit.
In fact, I think they went so far as to suggest that the right to demolish a building that's been municipally designated should be removed from the legislation right now.
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They're clearly thinking in a way that's protective of the heritage resources of the built heritage of Nova Scotia.
Clearly the economic reason, the one that would move the province to be involved whereas normally things like land use at the municipal level are seen as the kind of thing that municipalities are left to do, what would perhaps move the province to begin to be involved in this, would be a recognition that these are tourist attractions. These are things that make Nova Scotia a pleasant place to live, a pleasant place for people to visit and they're part of the economic life of the province. This is the reality if we can display our history and our heritage then the odds are we're going to continue to have more visitors come and that would be all to the good of individual municipalities as a whole.
To which, I would add that the way to think about municipalities is that they have no constitutional status. They exercise powers no more and no less than are given to them by the province. The province has a lot of residual rights over land use and a lot of opportunity to direct municipalities in certain ways entirely apart from legislation. In the end, land use is a legitimate provincial matter and one that if the province chose to become more involved in it, you certainly could.
Which leads me to my next point. It's one thing to think about amending the heritage property legislation, it's one thing to put more money on the table. I want to draw your attention to a particular problem here in metro and that has to do with development around the periphery of the Citadel. The Citadel, of course, is not provincial property. It's owned by the federal government, it's a designated national historic site, but it's clearly one of the main tourist attractions in metro and in Nova Scotia. There is a huge economic spin-off from having the Citadel, through accident of geography and history, in such a prominent place in our provincial capital.
Geology gave us the drumlin on which Edward Cornwallis was subsequently able to construct the Citadel. (Interruption) It's a drumlin, that's what it is, absolutely. Eleven thousand years ago when the glaciers withdrew, they left us with the mound on which the Citadel fortress now stands. That's exactly right. So that combination of geology and history has now given us this central feature to our life but beyond the physical boundaries of the Citadel, the federal government has dubious ability to exercise control.
You know, I teach land use law at Dalhousie Law School and I don't want to say that the federal government has no power to impose zoning beyond the confines of land that it owns. The parallel is with airports - even where the federal government owns an airport, it can impose zoning in the terms of limitation of heights on the periphery around airports and do so quite legitimately even though it doesn't own the land around it. In the United States, the federal government has in fact imposed height restrictions around some of its national parks and other kinds of use restrictions around the periphery of some of its national parks without owning that land. I'm not ruling out the possibility that they might be federal
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jurisdiction but they've never chosen to assert that jurisdiction, which means that there is also a legitimate provincial jurisdiction around the periphery of a national historic site.
Again, our interest is in promoting tourism and making sure that whatever gets built around the periphery of the Citadel is not to the detriment of the national historic site. We found unfortunately that over the years City Council in Halifax has not been sufficiently alert as a guardian of the periphery of Citadel Hill. For 30 years, I have personally found myself involved in fights with HRM Council and its predecessor.
That's the current example, it's not the only one - there was the Midtown Tavern case, but the United Gulf proposal for 27 stories just down the block from our building, Province House. I should point out, you have to think- do you want two 27 story towers just down that block? We have an interest here as the ones who will occupy this workplace of ours, but there's also a provincial interest. So I'm urging you to think about this problem and think about whether the province either through your department or through the Minister responsible for Heritage might want to have a good hard look at this.
As I said, I had a discussion with, and so did Maureen MacDonald, my colleague, the member for Halifax Needham - we met with your predecessor in the portfolio. Although he understood the problem of course - he's a former member of HRM City Council as am I, but it didn't seem to be of interest to him. I have to say - talking to you as a representative of your Party - it cannot have failed to escape your notice that you were virtually banished from the central urban core of metro when it came to winning seats. Let me tell you that one of the issues that's a live issue here is the way in which heritage is dealt with and protected. I have to tell you, it would send a much better signal that your Party was interested in urban issues if you were to at least show some interest in this topic.
Again, I'm not in a position to ask you a question beyond wondering whether you would like more information about this or if you're prepared to take it up with discussions with your colleague because I assure you this is a live topic and one that would do your Party and your government some good if they actually showed some interest in it.
I hear no response from the minister but I know that he heard me because we were chatting and I guess our time is up is it?
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have one minute.
MR. MUIR: Well, let me perhaps occupy that minute then. I do know that the honourable member in the period of time that I've been in this Legislature, I know his interest in protection of heritage property and his view on it. I also know from the media, he does get in it every once and awhile - his view is not always consistent with that of HRM Council members. The issue of the province becoming more involved in management of heritage properties - as you know the province does have a number of them which it finances,
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or at least gives considerable money to, such as Lawrence House and I suppose we can take that new art gallery down in Yarmouth, which was the old Royal Bank Building; the Historical Society Museum in Truro was in the old Science Building from the former Normal Teachers' College. The province does invest considerable money in the maintenance of heritage properties around the province and I know the honourable member knows that.
[11:00 a.m.]
Now, whether the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Heritage who will be following here, I think it would be that minister who is really more directly responsible for heritage. You may wish to address your comments to him and I expect that you will, but suffice to say that in my own town, and I can remember actually one of your former colleagues in the Legislature who is President of the Nova Scotia Heritage Society - I believe, Peter Delefes - he and I had conversations about this building which subsequently fell to the hammer in Truro.
One of the difficulties in my perspective with heritage buildings is that you don't have a whole lot of people who know a whole lot about them, and then you get a whole lot of experts trying to make a bowl of soup and then you end up with - I don't know what you end up with, but I know in the case of the old City Hall there in Truro, they spent $4 million as a town, and I'm going to say $4 million, trying to save that thing. I don't want to sit here and reflect on the decisions that were made to do that, but clearly some of the advice and some of the money expended, it couldn't have been new money. Similarly, the building which is the current City Hall - again a heritage building - it used to be the old electric light building in Truro, the Truro Electric Commission building. They went out and they got an estimate to fix that and I'm going to say it was $800,000, it was probably more than that, and I think they ended up spending about $3.5 million on the thing.
Some of the advice, and I think one of the things that, you know, a Heritage Advisory Committee - and we have a very active one in my home community chaired by people who are friends of mine - but the Heritage Advisory Committees act with great passion and with great love for old buildings. Sometimes they, as part of that committee to provide input, don't have the technical expertise and I think that, in terms of saving at least old buildings, is a problem, and alternative uses for them.
Again I can say in my home community, when the two new elementary schools are built, there are going to be two schools that were built back in the very early part of the 20th Century that, you know, if somebody has got a very creative mind, maybe they can figure out what to do with them. But, you know, they clearly would be heritage buildings and I expect that the Heritage Advisory Committee will be pressuring the Town Council because those buildings will revert back to the town, to try to do something with them. Really it's like everything else, you know, the town has got a lot of streets to pave, things like that, and they have some tough decisions to make.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park.
MS. DIANA WHALEN: There are quite a few areas I wanted to talk about again. I would like to maybe start with your Access Nova Scotia offices which were, you know, something done to improve service to Nova Scotians. The one question I would like to ask is around the hours of operation, in particular, and my concern with it is primarily to do with the hours that they are open - at least here in Halifax - the hours they're open for people who want to write their learner's licence exam, the written exam to get your driver's licence. Maybe somebody from the department is able to comment on that, but the offices are open some days during the week to 7:30 p.m., I think Wednesday to Friday, but you can't write your exam after 4:00 p.m. or 4:30 p.m. I think it's 4 o'clock in the afternoon that they have to arrive by and maybe somebody could confirm that for me?
MR. MUIR: I'm informed that is correct.
MS. WHALEN: Is it 4:00 p.m.?
MR. MUIR: Yes, it is.
MS. WHALEN: So that actually just confirms what I've been told and I've had calls actually at my office from people who are annoyed about this, wanting to know why if the office is open longer hours, why the primarily young people who want to write their learner's licence have to take time off school in order to get to the office to write those exams.
MR. MUIR: Your point is taken. I will endeavour to find out a little bit more about that.
MS. WHALEN: Can you tell me, when it comes time to book your driver's test, is there a similar restriction on hours?
MR. MUIR: We haven't heard that there is because if the office is open, it would be a matter of making an appointment. We'll also provide that information to you.
MS. WHALEN: If you would, that would be helpful. I know that my son took time off school to go and take his driver's test, and that was just this year.
MR. MUIR: But he had to do it.
MS. WHALEN: I don't know if there was an option for a time outside of that, that's really what I'm saying.
MR. MUIR: How old is he?
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MS. WHALEN: He's 16. Maybe as a not very good mother, I didn't check on the other options about staying in school. I know when we took the learner's written test, there was no option. You had to find time to get there during the day, and it took time out of school. In fact, it was other mothers who complained to me about this and brought it to my attention. If the minister would look into that, and double-check for me, please, whether or not you can take the actual driving test outside of school hours, say after 4:00, 4:30 in the afternoon. I think it's an important issue, because it kind of contradicts our concerns about education, and as a former Minister of Education I'm sure you would appreciate that.
MR. MUIR: I guess it would be interesting, because the driver's education programs all took place after school. I can't speak to the internal workings of that particular division, because I don't know it. Here in metro, unless they're worried about the 4:30 p.m. traffic or something like that - there may be some practical reason like that.
MS. WHALEN: I, frankly, can see no reason why the clerks working in that department couldn't continue to take written tests beyond that hour. The whole intent is to make better service hours for Nova Scotians. In the same vein, I would ask if there's any plan to open the office on Saturdays, to extend our hours into Saturday service hours, again to reflect people's working week?
MR. MUIR: There are no current plans to do that. I think the trade-off, through you, Mr. Chairman, was the open hours in the evening. I believe they're open three evenings now to try to enable people.
MS. WHALEN: Yes, they're open until 7:30 on those evenings. Again, not as long as our retail hours. Again, I would suggest that a Saturday, even a half-day Saturday, would provide a lot of flexibility to working people who often have to go in to line up for registration or licence renewals. We have no choice but to go through those processes, everybody needs a valid licence and so on, a lot of people need them for work. It's not convenient, is really what I'm saying. I think that the idea of having a one-stop shop is a good idea. That has been developed now, but I think there's fine-tuning that could make it a lot better. I think Saturday hours, even if they were piloted to see if there was a demand and how many people were using it, would be a good thing to look at. I really think, ultimately, that is what we're there for, to try to serve the public in that regard. So, I'd like to suggest it.
On the time of waiting, I'm wondering if there's any calculation or measurements taken on how long people are waiting for service. The suggestion was made to me by one of my colleagues - they've received complaints that it's taking longer to line up and get your car registration and licence renewals done. I know it's a take-a-number system that's going at least in the West End Mall location, and I imagine that's standard across your offices.
MR. MUIR: We're going to look. I doubt if that information is available. Clearly, the office with which I'm most familiar is the one I have to go to in my home community.
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However, I do know that the department, the Registry of Motor Vehicles in particular - yes, we do have something on customer wait times, and I'll give it to you in a minute. They enable a lot of the transactions to be done on-line now or by mail, and, to be quite frank, the last few times that I've done these things - I think the second to last time I renewed my driver's licence, I did it over the phone, but they discontinued that option. I don't know why it was discontinued. I asked about it at that time, because it worked very well for me. They gave me a reasonable answer, not that I liked the answer but it was reasonable, because I had liked that.
The on-line transactions - and to be quite frank I have to speak personally, I found the mail system to be so much improved in recent years, the turnaround time is really good. I can remember last year I sent something in and I didn't sign something, and in about two days I got the thing back saying, you have to sign this before we can process it.
MS. WHALEN: That's true. The driver's licence, though, you would require a photograph to go with that, so you would have to come in in person for that. I was just interested if you're tracking wait times in the offices. That's something you could actually provide me, or if you have it there, maybe, you could tell us today. Otherwise, I can get it later.
MR. MUIR: This is actually published with our business plan. The per cent of customers waiting less than 10 minutes at service centres in 2003-04 was 50 per cent, 2004-05 was 63 per cent. That's a 26 per cent increase in that year. The target is 80 per cent. The per cent of customers answered in less than 20 seconds at call centres in 2003-04 was at 80 per cent and it decreased slightly in 2004-05 down to 75 per cent. Again, the target is 80 per cent. Clearly, customer satisfaction is one of the - what am I going to call it - mandates of the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. I know I was impressed reading through the briefing notes to find out how often the issue of service to the public and public satisfaction was mentioned, in virtually every category. It's something that I think I can honestly say that every division is very conscious of.
MS. WHALEN: I'm glad to hear that. Certainly the name reflects that - Service Nova Scotia. We would hope that would be one of your measurements, always.
MR. MUIR: The objective, to be quite frank, is to make this department the most efficient, effective and customer-friendly in the country.
MS. WHALEN: That's good. I'll watch. A couple of quick questions that I have that I hope staff or yourself will be able to answer, and that is the use of cell phones while we're driving. It's been clearly written up about how that impacts on safety - the distraction of drivers being a main cause of accidents. Whether it's because we're drinking coffee or eating or whatever, the many things that people shouldn't be doing while they're driving a car. Two provinces have taken action on cell phones. Ontario has gone to where it must be hands-free,
[Page 640]
and Newfoundland and Labrador, I believe, went completely no cell phone use while you're driving.
I'm wondering if there's any study going on? Surely it's been examined at the department. Could you give me some sense about whether there's any chance of moving on that?
MR. MUIR: Certainly, I can tell you, with the government it's an issue that does come up from time to time. The approach that is being taken currently is that public education is needed - more public education. I'm like you, I see some people on cell phones, and I guess I have been guilty from time to time myself, although I do have both a Bluetooth and a hands-free, but they cost money, those things. It's an issue that I can tell you the government is monitoring. I'm just going to check with my departmental colleagues to see if there is a more specific answer to a committee.
No, we don't have a formal committee. I know it has been discussed a number of times. That really is a TPW matter as opposed to a Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations matter.
MS. WHALEN: That's a good answer. I would suggest - and maybe this is a Public Service Commission point - internal policy could say that none of your public servants will drive while talking on the phone. That was introduced when I was a city councillor at HRM. I think they said hands-free, if I'm not mistaken. Hands-free was the policy HRM introduced. It would be a way to signal that we think it's important, and that we're starting with the thousands of people who work, many of whom are on the roads with TPW or other divisions where they're driving. It might be a good way to signal that. I'll leave that with you for consideration.
Another one, again on safety, is the crosswalk issue, which would overlap with municipalities, as well. Most of the crosswalks, probably the most dangerous crosswalks are in the urban areas of the province. We know there have been eight fatalities since 2000, which is really a high number and many more accidents and incidents. Again, I'm looking at what the minister might be planning. I recognize it has TPW involved in this too, but your relationship with municipalities would allow some leadership in this area.
[11:15 a.m.]
MR. MUIR: Certainly crosswalk safety, anytime anybody gets hit or nearly hit in a crosswalk, is an issue and I suspect there's nobody in this room who probably has escaped when, particularly when one car stops and the next one keeps coming down the street on you. That seems to be the normal one, certainly in my area. The only thing positive that I can report, and in recognizing that any injury is too many, is that I did hear the Minister of Transportation and Public Works, the other night, talk about the sharp reduction in the
[Page 641]
number of pedestrian/vehicle accidents, including crosswalks, in the past number of years. Perhaps you were in the House then and I was really surprised at the decrease, I mean, it was pronounced over, I think, it was a 10-year period or something like that.
So the education is working. A lot more crosswalks have the blinking lights now and I know one of things that the department is considering is something that they do in other jurisdictions, whether it will come to fruition right now, is that if you have blinking lights maybe the colour should be changed. I know that that is something that, when I say it's under consideration, I mean, they're always looking at ways to enhance public safety.
MS. WHALEN: Again, with information maybe at your Service Nova Scotia offices, there would be an opportunity to have information or some sort of educational pieces available. I know it's part of driver education if the students take that step, but something that would reinforce it for all drivers, even when you're getting a renewal of a licence or coming in, there might be an opportunity because as you said, awareness is the biggest thing there. It's driver inattention to some agree, as well as the pedestrians take some responsibility.
MR. MUIR: Driver inattention and also the pedestrians, you know, they have to wear some of it too.
MS. WHALEN: Yes, they certainly have to look for the cars to be stopping, but it is a big concern to me and I mentioned to the Minister of Transportation and Public Works the other night about several locations in HRM that have what are called, half lights. I don't know if you were present at the time when I talked about that, or half signalization, which is on an intersection with four corners. Two of the corners have stop signs. The slow streets coming in have stop signs. The main street, in the case the most prominent one in my area is Lacewood Drive, has a half light and it's full signalization just on Lacewood, with the side streets having stop signs, and where the pedestrians cross, they activate that light. Only a pedestrian can activate the light to turn red. It's directly in front of the Keshen Goodman Library that I know you've visited on a number of occasions for events, and so it's not only serving the library but also the thousands of students who go to Halifax West, or the 1,600 students there.
So a very busy intersection and a half light turns the light completely red, traffic stops, and I can tell you the public have been very happy with that and there's another location near me as well, but I think in all of HRM there are only four or five that have been done, but I would highly recommend that and I think we should be talking about it and I think we should be talking to the counterparts at the municipalities, especially where a new one is going in, the cost is not that much different. I just think it's the answer myself, not a blinking light at all, but a solid red because drivers know what that means and they don't question it.
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MR. MUIR: Well it may be an appropriate time too because a lot of municipalities are changing lights over to LED for energy efficiency so . . .
MS. WHALEN: Yes, I think it just has a lot of merit, and we actually have an expert at Mount Saint Vincent University who has been doing a lot of studies on crosswalks. I was aware of that when I was, again, at City Council, that they were waiting for some of the tests that this particular academic was doing on safety at crosswalks and I think we could turn to that person - I'm sure our safety committee that we have for the province knows of him. The fact is, there are answers and other provinces are doing more to address it, and it's one of those overlapping issues that Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations will probably ultimately have a role to play because you do liaise with municipalities.
MR. MUIR: Well I think there would probably be three jurisdictions - perhaps Health Promotion and Protection along with Transportation and Public Works, and us as well.
MS. WHALEN: Yes. I think it's important that I mention it to you again, as the minister, so that all the ministers will be aware of that option, which I think is a really good one and certainly solves a lot of problems in my area directly.
I wanted to raise some issues around condominiums if I could, because within your department, you have a registrar of condominiums. So a couple of questions for you, I'm hoping you keep statistics on that, I would like to know how many condominiums have been registered in the last year and how many perhaps we have in total that are now registered? I know that each one is numbered as they come onboard. Condominium number one is in Clayton Park and it was registered in, I think, the mid-1970s, maybe the late 1970s. It's a townhouse area on Forestside - the Forestside condominium.
MR. MUIR: Actually I forgot about that being a condominium because actually my sister lives there. So that's one I know very well.
MS. WHALEN: Is that right. Well, that condominium number one, it's an indication really of it being a relatively new form of ownership in the province, you know. I was surprised that it was that recent.
MR. MUIR: Yes, I was thinking of the Carlisle which was down on, it was sort of the first high-rise condo in the city that I knew of, it's on the corner of Vernon Street and I think Coburg, the Carlisle.
MS. WHALEN: Yes, that's right. So they're very recent, but I know that the numbers have been just increasing, you know, almost exponentially. I just wondered if you could give me the numbers that have been registered in the last year?
MR. MUIR: You're thinking of individual units as opposed to buildings?
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MS. WHALEN: No, buildings because they're registered as a condominium corp.
MR. MUIR: Okay, we will get that information and you were looking for the numbers that are total registered as well as the numbers that were done in 2005-06?
MS. WHALEN: That's right and maybe the year before, too, if it's something you're looking for, just so I can get a sense of how it's escalating in terms of the numbers that are coming onboard. We're reading more and more about this form of ownership extending outside the urban area now. Liverpool has a project apparently coming up along the Mersey River and in a lot of other smaller places condominiums are being looked at.
MR. MUIR: Including my hometown, we've had a couple of condo projects. We had one quite some number of years ago and never had another one, and now we've had two in the past year.
MS. WHALEN: There wasn't a strong market for the resale up until more recent times. Apparently they weren't as well recognized but anyway, now they are and they're very popular. So there are problems coming up and surfacing as a result of the increased ownership of condominiums and I wanted to just explore a little bit with you about the role that the department plays now or could play.
I guess by way of background I would say, it wasn't recently but perhaps two years ago, I was in to see the condominium registrar and talk about the role that the department has. My understanding from that meeting was the role is very limited, that the department gets involved when a condominium is being constructed, when it's being registered as a corporation and that, you know, the paperwork and the sort of legalities around the registration is something that you take an interest in. Once it's properly registered, you wash your hands of it completely and the complaints that come in afterwards, and I know there are frequently complaints - I think the staff there know about them and talk to people but don't have any official role in dealing or helping to resolve complaints. So my question to the minister would be, is that the case, am I understanding it correctly that you have no further involvement?
MR. MUIR: The honourable member, Mr. Chairman, is correct, we're involved in the registration and the setting up of those things but once they are up and running, although I'm trying to go back in memory and I think it was about four or five years ago, there was a legislative change made, I see the honourable member for Preston agreeing with me, and I can remember the debate (Interruption) Oh, you did it, it was you, was it? Okay, there was a change in the interest of consumer protection made, but I can't remember what it was.
MS. WHALEN: Well, I would like to ask if there is any record kept of the complaints that are received at the department? I know you're not obliged to deal with those complaints but from speaking to the registrar, there are frequent calls where people have a dispute either
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with their governing body or with the builder or, you know, in some way because they own a condominium disputes arise.
MR. MUIR: We will check on that for you, I don't know. The other thing I'm just trying to think of, if there was a complaint lodged, where it might go as opposed to the registrar of condominiums?
MS. WHALEN: From speaking to my own constituents when they've had these problems, they've struggled about where to go with their problems. They go back to the condominium registrar - then they're told, if you have a problem, go to arbitration. I can tell you that part of the reason I raise it today is for an individual who owns a unit in any condo corp. to decide to go to arbitration is an enormous step. It's expensive, it's all-encompassing, probably for months, perhaps a year, for them to document and make their case and get ready to go to an arbitrator, which very often, I think without fail, your condominium corp. will go - if your dispute is with the condominium corp. - they'll go with their lawyers that are paid for through the corporation.
So, any individual who has a problem with how things are going has a daunting task, as is the case in some other legal disputes. It's not really going to the courts, it's going to arbitrators. That is the advice the condominium registrar will say, that we have no role in it, so you have to take it to arbitration yourself if you can't resolve it. The department doesn't play any role in trying to get the resolution because your staff - simply to register these buildings, you're not staffed with the people who could help in any kind of dispute resolution.
The question I raise is, again, wanting to get those figures, if I could, on complaints, if they're captured. I think that if they're not being captured, I would highly recommend that you begin to, so that you can get a sense of the types of concerns people are having and disputes they are having. In the one case where I was involved initially, the people - and there was more than one, it was a group of owners - were unhappy with their board because they didn't have access to the books of the corporation. They wanted to see whether things were tendered. Say if a roofing project was being done, did they get three quotes like a company would do, and did they choose the cheapest quote, or were they hiring their friends? That might have been the sub-text to that, but there was a concern about how monies were spent. Of course that's being done on behalf of the whole corporation.
I think often when people buy a condo, they don't realize they have a governance role. So there's a big education piece in this, as well, under condominiums, especially with the large number of people who are now stepping into that form of ownership. Do they realize that this is being run collectively, and they either step up and sit on those boards and take an active role, they should at least understand that someone has to do that on their behalf and that they're part of a corporation? I think sometimes they step into it a little bit blindly
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and then realize they're not too happy with how it's managed. So they need to understand what the roles are.
I don't know if there's any - maybe that's a good question right now. Has there been any education for condominium owners? Some provinces have gotten very active in this regard, some jurisdictions - Florida for example, very active in informing condominium owners about what their role is.
MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, through you to the member for Halifax Clayton Park, we'll, again, check that. Condos fall under our program management section, the limited responsibility we have, but I don't know. I expect there is something on the Web site....
MS. WHALEN: I appreciate it may take some more research on your part and on the part of staff, but I guess I see the estimates as a good opportunity to raise issues that have arisen. Particularly coming straight from the election, I've been in a large number of the condos in our area, a lot of the big buildings, and have certainly gone through all of the townhouses. From that, I've really heard a lot of concerns. The group I mentioned that initially had come to me with a concern about not having access to the books - somebody did go through to arbitration, went through the whole process, it cost her about $9,000, and she was unsuccessful at that meeting to get any help. She didn't win her arbitration dispute.
It is difficult. I think that if we're finding, and if your research would find that there are a lot of complaints coming in, then we do need to start to intervene on a consumer protection side to say, are people adequately informed, do the condo boards operate according to their rules, are they being sufficiently transparent and open - those kinds of questions. There's a question here about whether people may be disadvantaged by owning condominiums.
[11:30 a.m.]
Further to that, I'd like to mention another issue around condominiums. I've been talking more about the owners and their relationship with their governing boards, but there's also an issue around new condos being constructed. We have quite a number of big condominium buildings - again, very new in Clayton Park, a lot of them within the last three or four years. In three separate large buildings, in fact four that I went through, there was significant structural damage in those buildings and they're brand new essentially, you know - really brand new buildings that have been recently occupied. They're finding things like water damage, water coming in - in fact one of those rainy days I was in one and the apartment had all kinds of cloths down and buckets and everything else - a brand new condominium with water coming in like that.
Once they own them, the responsibility of the builder is gone, the condo has been sold, the board is constituted and there's no protection for those condominium owners going
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back to the construction and quality of the building. Another building had an entire face of brickwork that needed to be redone at a cost of over $100,000 and that, of course then, comes back through their governing board to say we all have to pick up this cost so some of them are seeing $3,000, $4,000, $5,000 bills coming back to them individually. You can appreciate they're none too happy because they just bought condos that cost $200,000 and I think that it's signalling a need to review what protection there is perhaps in the Condominium Act and I'd like perhaps at a future time we can open that up and look at it with staff. I really think this is a huge problem. I'm wondering if staff at the department or yourself had heard any such complaints as yet?
MR. MUIR: As you know, I've been there a limited time and I have not received any correspondence or any communication about condos up to this point. I was very interested in your comment about a brand new condo. I mean, there are deficiencies sometimes in buildings, but the fact that it wouldn't be covered under a home warranty program or that there isn't some protection of the builder. I thought when they build things these days, they have to give you a warranty if you're a licensed builder or something.
MS. WHALEN: I actually have an appointment to meet with one of the condominiums very shortly after the House rises and I'll be getting more information from them, but they certainly have their lawyer as well, they have looked into any repercussion or recourse that they have, that they could perhaps get some help.
MR. MUIR: I think what you're also saying is, if one is going to get into condominium living, they better look very carefully at the builder and all of those things to make sure what you're getting involved with.
MS. WHALEN: When I mentioned I was in four different ones, those are four different builders as well so I'm not pointing a finger at anyone in particular and I certainly don't want to. I think the fact that they're building new buildings is a good thing and I'm happy with the option for particularly older people to choose a condominium to live in, but I just think it's something we need to start looking at because I think we're seeing a huge growth in the number of condominiums, as I said, and what's going along hand in hand with it are further complications in either governance or protection of that buyer.
When we did change the Condominium Act a number of years ago, it was done in a way that contingency funds would be put aside, that they were obliged to save money over the years for known costs like new roofs, new windows, that you could predict. The condominiums are set up that way but when they're brand new and they're only two or three years old, they have no contingency fund built up for major repairs.
I'm going to explore some options around that but I don't believe what I'm seeing in Clayton Park is an isolated circumstance, and I think it's important that the deputy minister and others in your department be aware that this could be a trend that we need to step in as
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a government and protect the consumers in this case. It's the largest investment any of us make, really, is generally speaking in our homes, so that's the same thing for a condominium owner.
So really I am very concerned about that and probably seeing it a little quicker because of the number in my riding, but I think that we're looking at trouble and my own view, and perhaps the minister would comment, is that we should be increasing our presence in this entire market, making some alternate dispute resolutions available. Maybe a board similar to the Residential Tenancies Board that would not be so expensive for a hearing to be held. Maybe it could be a first step, rather than going straight to lawyers and arbitration that we have in place now, but it would require government willingness to step in and play a larger role in that because right now we have got a hands- off approach to what happens once the condominiums exist. So that is something I throw out there for consideration that a larger role be considered and I think that is important.
Just moving quickly to Residential Tenancies if I could because I know our time - we have about 25 minutes left. On Residential Tenancies, I wonder if you can tell me the number of appeals that the department dealt with, and if you have them over a number of years? I'd like to know if there's any trend, and I'd like to get a copy of that too, if I could, afterwards. Maybe you could make that paper available?
MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, we will attempt to provide that information. We don't have it in our briefing books.
MS. WHALEN: Do staff have any sort of sense about whether there is any rising pressure there or need for additional staff?
MR. MUIR: Sort of the feeling is that the number of complaints has actually declined and I think a couple of reasons for that is probably tenants and landlords are both becoming, because of education programs, more aware of their responsibilities and there may be a few people who have had to battle to pave the way for others.
MS. WHALEN: Okay, that may be. My colleague suggests maybe some are going to Small Claims Court instead, but I don't know. I am interested because, again, as I mentioned earlier, we have a high percentage of people who rent in my area and problems again definitely arise between building owners and landlords, and the tenants. I mean, I'm glad to see we have a Residential Tenancies Board and I should say my calls to the manager of that area - Gerald Hashey, I believe his name is - he's always been very good about getting back to me, explaining the Act to me, and clarifying the role that they can play and certainly trying to intervene where he can.
So I certainly appreciate that level of support from the department because I think it's important that we be really sensitive to both sides. I hear from landlords who have real
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concerns. They have big investments in a property and then they're not receiving their rent. Or somebody has abused the building and caused damage. They're serious to an owner and often they're not people who own many buildings. They may own only one or two buildings. It's a big investment for them and can be their livelihood or their income.
So it's important for them, but I also hear from people who are living in less than perfect conditions and they're unhappy with the landlords and their attention. So it's a charged environment at times and it's conflict. Let's face it, it's dealing with conflict, and I think that it's important that we have the right processes to deal with that. As I say, I'll look forward to seeing how the complaints are going, and if you keep any records on the nature of the complaints as well.
One thing I've heard this year, which disturbed me a little bit and I don't think there's any, at least as I understood it, there was perhaps nothing we could do about it as a government, but it was raised first among the immigration issues and then I heard it again from a student who was trying to rent an apartment. It's landlords asking the prospective tenants to give them money for the entire year. To put up all the money for the rent for the entire year, that they basically didn't trust them to be dependable.
So if they fail whatever screening that the landlord does that they would say, well, you can come as long as you give me the money for the whole year. With new immigrants, the problem is that they don't have perhaps the credit record we talked about, the history here in the province and in the country and for that reason - maybe it's lack of trust or lack of understanding - the landlords are putting this impediment in front of them. Even if it's just very isolated, I'd only heard of it first at an immigration forum that I was at, that this was happening occasionally and then from a student who was told that that was the only way they could rent this apartment, was if they put all their money up for the year. I just think that's wrong and I don't know if staff are able to provide us an idea on the policy around that?
MR. MUIR: I guess, Mr. Chairman, the practice to which the honourable member is referring is not allowed and I do know that the department has published sort of a tenants' rights handbook - particularly for university students - and it's being distributed, if I remember correctly, through Saint Mary's University and I expect probably others do it as well, and I'm also told that it's available on the campus at St. F.X. Did I not read that as well? Yes, down at St. F.X. as well. So the department recognizes that students occasionally do get sometimes, particularly if you get in areas around universities where the occupancy rate is virtually non-existent, sometimes people's rights are not respected. Of course, on the other hand too, I think sometimes students have to recognize rights of the landlords as well as the rights of the neighbours.
MS. WHALEN: Again, it's important, it behooves both of them to know the rules and to follow their responsibilities.
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MR. MUIR: Yes.
MS. WHALEN: But I still worry about the tenants often being vulnerable because they don't have the means or the education sometimes to properly defend themselves in the systems we have. So that's why they often come to MLAs, and I'm sure they have to your office as well, because they need somebody to explain it or advocate and help them through the system.
I want to know a little bit about the timeliness of dealing with those complaints that come to Residential Tenancies. Do you have, again, any measurement or tracking of how long it would take - say a landlord brings a complaint to your department, how long would it take to get a resolution because actually the landlords are complaining it takes too long?
MR. MUIR: The Residential Tenancies hearings - the target is to get 100 per cent of the cases heard within four weeks. The base year was 2003-04 and 90 per cent of the complaints were heard within that four week target. In 2004-05, it was 85 per cent but this is tracked annually. I don't know whether that was due to a large number of complaints or it might be one or two that would warp the statistics if there were a small number.
MS. WHALEN: Yes, you know, that result at 85 per cent is not bad, I must say. I guess what we would look at would be the outliers - how many go to some extended period of time - but having 85 per cent within four weeks, I certainly don't find anything there to criticize strongly. It's just that I know that there's a lot of money often at stake, so it's a concern. So that's an area that, you know, I would like to be looking more at in future.
Can you tell me anything at all about rent controls and whether that's something that the government has looked at internally? There's a Poverty Coalition that has met in my riding and that seems to be one of their main issues, housing security, and as an extension, the fact that rents rise rapidly sometimes. I mentioned somebody in my riding who just had $40 extra on a $585 a month bill. So she's going up $40. Some of them are saying that as the buildings are changing hands, they're being sold to new groups that are coming in - Killam Properties, and there are a couple of other new names that seem to be. A lot of the buildings are being bought up, then the rents jump. So I think it's something that needs to be at least examined and, again, it's something we had in the past and maybe we don't want to go back to it, but are we examining it?
MR. MUIR: There is no rent control. Apparently, the government does monitor what happens in mobile home parks. The reason for my delay in responding to the question was, I was thinking in my time as MLA, which is eight years, I can remember the issue of rent control. Perhaps it was before my time here, because there was rent control at one time, but I'm guessing that it became impractical to try to administer rent control. It seemed to me, and your colleague, the member for Preston, may remember this because he may be a bit of a
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landlord - it had something to do with electricity prices or something. There was something that entered the market at that time, which kind of put the tin hat to it.
MS. WHALEN: A specific question - if I wanted to explore, just even talk about what's involved or how it may have worked in the past, who in the department would be able to speak to me about that?
MR. MUIR: That would Mr. Gerald Hashey.
MS. WHALEN: I think it's something I would just like to know more about, that's all. Again, it's similar to gas regulation - if people don't have the right facts, perhaps they'll draw the wrong conclusions. I'm not going to go to gas regulation today, though. I simply want to be able to understand it better, because I'm having residents call me and say, will you look at that or do something, and I think we need to look at it carefully.
On the Municipal Relations side, I'd like to know what programs you have where funds go directly to municipalities, if any? That would be subsidies or supports for municipal priorities. One of the areas I think we need funding for would be to support transportation in cities and towns. My understanding is, we do not get involved in that at all.
MR. MUIR: I believe that went with service exchange. There are a number of categories of how money flows directly to municipalities. There are also a couple of cases where the province - although we flow the money to the municipalities, it's as a middleman. There are two recently-announced programs with the federal government - one was the gas rebate - and we act as the agent to flow that money to municipalities, and the other portion of that was the federal gas tax. It was 5 cents a litre and an additional 2 cents targeted towards transit. So we flow that. It's not our money, it's . . .
MS. WHALEN: It's not matched in any way, it's just a federal flow-through.
MR. MUIR: On the other hand, a couple of other programs with which you would be familiar would be the Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund - MRIF - sort of a 33/33/33. The province does put significant money into that. That is matching funds; the federal government and the municipalities participate in that as well. There is also something called PCAP funding - provincial capital funding - and municipalities can apply for grants under that. That is provincial money that flows out there. There is also the Community Transportation Assistance Program, and we give money for that. That's to facilitate the provision of sustainable public transportation services, which are accessible to mobility-challenged persons. That would include low-income people, as well as those who are disabled or people who are elderly.
I've mentioned the Canada-Nova Scotia Infrastructure Works Program - no, I didn't mention that - that's to offset the cost of high priority municipal infrastructure projects and
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the Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund - the MRIF, I did mention. Then there are occasionally some discretionary grants that are given to municipalities, which would be very minor amounts. Just every once in a while somebody gets in a pinch, there is a limited amount of money for that and once the money goes that's the end of it.
MS. WHALEN: Can I ask how much is in the budget for this year in the Estimates for any small grants to municipalities?
MR. MUIR: $400,000.
MS. WHALEN: Are there any specific criteria for that, or is there a lot of discretion in terms of just good projects that are applied for? Are they energy projects? Are they transportation?
MR. MUIR: There's a fair bit of discretion but it's just good projects.
MS. WHALEN: Is there a grant system or an application system?
MR. MUIR: An example of one that we gave the other day was one of the smaller rural municipalities needed a water study and they weren't able to finance it all and I think the amount of the grant was $12,000 or $15,000 to enable them to do that so basically it was a green project.
MS. WHALEN: So a lot of them might be studies like that, like looking at transportation issues or joint municipal-federal-provincial..
MR. MUIR: It was not matching like some of the programs have to be matching - they're defined as matching. But no this was not something - the municipality I think. Actually I couldn't remember, it was a $30,000 project and the municipality just didn't have the means.
MS. WHALEN: So it gives you a little bit of opportunity to step in and see that the right things are done.
MR. MUIR: In emergency situations.
MS. WHALEN: When I was first named critic, I had gone to HRM to talk to them and one of their concerns was that we don't, as a province, transfer any funds dedicated for certain priorities, particularly transportation. They compared the operating cost of our transit in HRM - I think it's something like 80 per cent funded by the users, by the fees charged and in Edmonton, it's something like 30 per cent carried by the users of the transportation system because of so many grants available. I'm sure those are the two extremes, but could we not work towards 50 per cent?
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MR. MUIR: I think I'd dearly love to be able to say that Halifax only had to pay 30 per cent.
MS. WHALEN: Well it's one of our aims on so many different fronts in terms of the environment - greenhouse gases, healthy living, so many ways - and if the buses could be run at a more frequent rate and there was more service, I guess, involved, more people would take the bus.
MR. MUIR: Having at one time been a bus rider in Halifax, one of the jobs I had - I always liked the Metro Transit system, it worked very efficiently for me but there were a lot less people living and depending on the transit system in those days. Halifax - basically you had it on the peninsula and then they started to sneak out the road to Mount St. Vincent as the population built out there - the interior of Halifax is an old city and it has an old street system and sometimes it's not that easy to make the adjustments we'd all like. We just have to look at one of the streets in which this building is housed.
MS. WHALEN: I can say to the minister there's not frequent enough service in many of the parts of HRM. Service from Bedford, for example - along the Bedford Highway is every half hour. That's not enough for the number of people who now live close to the Bedford Highway, who would walk down and take those buses. On the weekend, it's once an hour - that's just not enough. Yet HRM can't support more unless they have some help, so I'm suggesting it is a priority.
MR. MUIR: I would assume the transit system and HRM must do ridership surveys and they would try to meet the demand.
MS. WHALEN: If you provide it though, then they'll begin to use it. In Clayton Park, because of the dense development, we actually have bus service that covers its complete costs - the bus line that runs through Clayton Park is not subsidized at all because of the heavy usership, and that's because of a dense population living in one area. So there are areas where you can do it, but we also have to provide service, and there's a big demand to the outlying areas of HRM - the areas just beyond the urban.
MR. MUIR: The other part of it is, in Nova Scotia - particularly in Halifax, we haven't gotten, in some ways, that urban mentality yet. It's still everybody has to take their car to work.
MS. WHALEN: Well, we have to be part of the change.
MR. MUIR: In other words, if you go to some of the larger cities, the standard is public transit.
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MS. WHALEN: I'd like to signal an interest that the province look at some subsidy to municipal transport that would help. They're doing their utmost to stretch those dollars and keep the buses on the road and upgrade their fleets as necessary. I just think it's one of the key priorities that is municipal, and in some of our smaller municipalities, we're not operating any kind of transit. This is something that's not just HRM - every municipality should be looking at it. They must do so for the disabled or some of the elderly. We need to extend it, that's all I'm saying on that one.
I did want to ask a couple of questions further, and I don't have very much time. So I'm not looking at the chairman, because he might tell me I'm finished. (Laughter) Under the Assessment Office, I wanted to talk about any changes coming in the Assessment Office. Over the last five years or so, I think the cost of assessments, running that whole office, has been transferred - or some would say downloaded - to the municipalities. I was a councillor when it was coming that way. So the terminology was more like downloaded. They've assumed about $14 million, picked up by UNSM members, to pay for that service. Now a board has been formed to change some of the governance of the Assessment Office.
So I want to know, what is its structure, what will its relationship be to government? Specifically, what will the status be of those employees who have worked in assessments? They have been civil servants, how are they going to be treated in the future? Just looking at any assurances that you have on their status, as well?
MR. MUIR: This assessment thing - clearly the province and the UNSM have been talking about this for some time, and the decision has been taken, through consultation, that the responsibility for the operation of Assessment Services will be transferred to the municipalities. We're talking about to the municipalities, an agency will be set up - I guess I'm going to call it an independent agency. It would be governed by the municipalities, who would provide the service that is currently being provided by an agency of this department. That is something that was worked out and done in conjunction or co-operation of two parties. They worked it out.
The issue of what is going to happen, the legislation will be introduced this Fall to enable an agency to be set up, and it should become functional April 1, 2007. There have been discussions going on; as you would understand a number of the employees who are in government who are in assessment are bargaining unit employees, so the Public Service Commission, as well as folks from our department, have had discussions with the unions and I understand that talks are progressing very well. Clearly, the rights of the employees who will be transferred will be protected.
MS. WHALEN: That was the final one there. Under municipal concerns and pressures is the need for recreation. Every community - I've been at the UNSM meetings - there's not a community in Nova Scotia that doesn't have an old arena that needs a new roof, or an old facility, or crumbling bleachers, whatever it may be, big and small. They have older
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facilities that are just crumbling, and they can't afford to replace fields or do what needs to be done. The pressures are great, and you've talked about a couple of the infrastructure programs in place. I'm wondering if you are involved in the negotiations for any kind of a sport infrastructure fund, which I think is terribly important for Nova Scotia. I think it's needed from one end of the province to the other.
MR. MUIR: There are discussions going on - actually going on this summer - which will ultimately, I guess, determine the role the province has in that. It has not been determined yet. As you know, the Health Promotion and Protection has facilities grants. Generally, it kind of works, as I would describe, like school construction. Municipalities or agencies list their priorities and eventually your number comes up, depending on the budget - the amount of money that is available in that budget line. The other thing was that it seemed to me, I think, at the end of the last fiscal year, we were able to do some investment, which we had not expected to be able to do. There were some monies that flowed at the end of last year that we didn't think we were going to be able to flow last year, so the schedule was advanced.
[12:00 p.m.]
MS. WHALEN: I know, as the new Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, you'll be attending those meetings, and you'll hear, directly, how great the pressures are. I appreciate that there was some strategic infrastructure money that went into sport facilities and will continue to, but it's a drop in the bucket. Just the cost of construction is escalating so much. The example I'll give you is to replace an old pool in Clayton Park is going to cost us about $9 million, just to replace what we had in the 1970s when the community was a fraction of the size it is today. So the cost of these construction projects is becoming so much more enormous that the amount of money that we've had available - it's almost like our road work, it's just not stretching to do the work it used to do.
MR. MUIR: We talked about the price of liquid asphalt going up, I think it was 30 per cent, somebody said it went up 60 per cent. The construction costs - and one of the difficulties, as the honourable member just mentioned, you do your estimates in 2006 and you're looking at a 2009 start, then it's not just normal inflation sometimes. The price of metals and copper - what are they stealing copper out of the hydro stations?
MS. WHALEN: On behalf of my community anyway, I would certainly like your voice around the table when it comes time to look at recreation in the Clayton Park riding. Just to put a plug in for that project, it will serve over 100,000 people in that near vicinity; in about a 10-minute radius you capture 100,000 people in that driving radius, and by the city's own figures 200,000 in a 20-minute driving radius. So the impact will be important.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The member's time has elapsed.
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The honourable Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations to make a quick closing statement and read his resolution.
MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, it has been an interesting experience for me. As I indicated to one of my staff yesterday, it would be nice now if people would ask me questions after I've gone through the estimates process, having been a minister for an abbreviated period of time. I think I know the portfolio better. I found the questions thought-provoking, there were some very good suggestions. I would like to thank the members of the two Opposition Parties. I realize that sitting in this room, constructing questions, and there were very few of you - it was a strain on you, but I want to thank you very much.
I'd also like to thank my staff, a number of whom are sitting back here. I had the opportunity to introduce them yesterday. They do very good work for the people of Nova Scotia, and the comments I've heard from the Opposition people seem to recognize that. I would like, at this time, just before reading the resolution, to thank the staff of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, not only the ones who are here in Halifax but those who are around the province. We do appreciate what you do. You do a good job, and it is recognized.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I would like to move Resolution E31.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E31 stand?
Resolution E31 stands.
We will now commence the Estimates of the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage.
Resolution No. E32 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $44,401,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage, pursuant to the Estimate and the business plan of the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia be approved.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Tourism, Culture and Heritage.
HON. LEONARD GOUCHER: Mr. Chairman, good morning. It's indeed a great pleasure to be here this morning. I thank members of the committee and the Opposition Parties for being here. First of all, I want to say what a great privilege it is to be here in this venerable building as both a new MLA and also a new minister in the government. It's a great privilege to be here with everybody, and all of the members in the House.
Mr. Chairman, Nova Scotia has many enviable assets. Picturesque cities and towns; a beautiful, natural seacoast; a long and storied history; a diverse and vibrant culture; and genuine, friendly people. These are all the things that attract tourists to our province,
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encourage our young people to stay and build their future here, provide a welcoming environment for immigrants and enhance our overall quality of life.
It's the job of our department to preserve and promote these assets for the social and economic benefit of all Nova Scotians. So our business plan for 2006-07 will once again focus on three overarching goals: economic growth, stewardship, governance and accountability. Mr. Chairman, the total budget this year for the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage is $44.4 million, which is an overall $2 million increase in our budget from 2005-06. New investments in this year budget for tourism marketing and the cultural groups and events will help build a stronger economy and more healthy, vibrant communities for Nova Scotians and their families.
Mr. Chairman, about half of our department's budget is spent on tourism development and promotion. Tourism is big business in Nova Scotia, generating over $1 billion - about $1.3 billion to be exact - in annual revenues and accounting for 7 per cent of all the jobs in this province, and that represents about 33,000 jobs. The tourism industry - globally, nationally and locally - is facing a number of challenges, including rising fuel costs, security concerns, border issues, increasing Canadian dollar, greater competition from other destinations, passport uncertainties, and changing consumer preferences. Virtually every province in Canada experienced a drop in the number of visitors from the United States last year. In fact, the number of Americans travelling to Canada fell to a 25-year low in 2005.
We have felt the impact of these industry-wide trends here in Nova Scotia. While we're used to seeing increases in our tourism numbers, last year we saw some decreases. Overall, visitation was down 4 per cent, or about 96,000 fewer people. While accommodation activity, or the number of rooms sold in hotels, bed-and-breakfasts and so forth, was down 1 per cent, which was felt differently across the province. We all know the loss of the Scotia Prince ferry had an effect. Since last summer, we have continued our strong relationship with Bay Ferries to restore the Yarmouth to Portland connection with the CAT - run three times a week - and provided a grant to TIANS to promote Nova Scotia in Portland and the surrounding area.
Over the May long weekend, Tourism, Culture and Heritage staff - in partnership with Bay Ferries and many tourism operators - staged a huge floating trade show on board the CAT in Boston Harbor, which was attended by more than 14,000 New Englanders. The recent announcement by Bay Ferries that they are cancelling the Digby-Saint John ferry in November is troubling news, Mr. Chairman. We're working with municipal, provincial and federal partners to assess the situation, and we are confident that a solution will be found.
Mr. Chairman, the factors and trends affecting the tourism industry reinforce the need for a businesslike approach to planning and strong coordinated partnerships. Our annual Tourism plans are grounded in research, and developed and implemented hand-in-hand with the tourism industry through the Tourism Partnership Council.
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The 2006 plan covers a broad range of activities, improving transportation links, developing key attractions, exploring new markets, preserving our natural seacoast, and continually conducting research. In 2004, we invested an additional $10 million in tourism - a third of which was used to develop key tourist attractions or, to use industry terms, for product development. That included investments in attractions such as the Cabot Trail, Peggy's Cove, Joggins fossil cliffs, experiences such as snowmobiling in Cape Breton, birdwatching at Cape Sable Island, and signature events like the Junos. We're just beginning to reap the benefits of these investments, and we will for many years to come, Mr. Chairman.
Marketing is another important element of the plan, the one that's most visible, and this year's budget includes another $600,000 for tourism marketing. We've adopted our marketing in the last year to address the trends and the challenges within the global tourism industry. In response to a growing consumer trend to plan and book vacations on-line, for example, we're continuing to enhance our Internet presence. We're advertising on popular travel Web sites, such as Travelocity and MSN/Sympatico, partnering with well-known magazines in on-line contests and, for the first time, offering tourism operators in the province the opportunity to advertise on the province's official Tourism Web site, novascotia.com.
We're also taking full advantage of festivals and promotional events to enhance our brand and take it into new markets, like western Canada. In May, for example, we blitzed the City of Calgary with a promotion including an Amazing Race for Lobsters contest, and the 78th Highlanders Piping and Drumming live on a popular radio show. Next month, we'll be staging a Nova Scotia cultural promotion at the Milwaukee Irish Festival to encourage those with an interest in Celtic culture and heritage to visit the province.
These are just a few of the things we're doing to promote tourism. We have a solid plan that was developed in partnership with industry and staff in the department, together with operators throughout the province, are working hard to bring visitors to Nova Scotia this year. To date, Mr. Chairman, in 2006, our total visitation is up 10 per cent more than the same period last year. That accounts for about 56,000 more visitors from January to May over the same period as last year. While that is encouraging, the challenges facing our tourism industry last year remain, and it's too early to predict what the rest of the season might hold.
However, I can say with confidence, Mr. Chairman, that the long-term trends in tourism show that it is a stable, billion dollar-plus industry. Based on quality of our tourism product, the strength of our plan, and our partnerships, we're confident that it will remain so.
Mr. Chairman, in Culture, tourists come to Nova Scotia not just for our beautiful scenery but to experience our unique culture and heritage; our vibrant music scene; our hundreds of festivals and events; our local arts and crafts; our museums and historical attractions; and our Acadian, African Nova Scotian, Gaelic, Mi'kmaq, and other diverse
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cultures. All these are equally important to Nova Scotians. They enrich our lives, connect us with who we are, and make Nova Scotia a place where people want to live and raise a family.
Nova Scotia arts and culture sector provides important social and economic benefits to our communities. Valued at $1.2 billion, this sector employs more than $28,000 people across this province. Mr. Chairman, the department's Culture Division has a budget of $7.7 million. Most of this, 83 per cent, supports programs and grants for hundreds of cultural groups and individual artists. This year we are investing another $850,000 in funding to cultural groups and activities - a 12.6 per cent increase over last year. The Art Gallery of Nova Scotia is also receiving an additional $361,000 to address operational pressures and to support programming, and a commitment for funding to support year-round operations at its Yarmouth branch.
Significant new investments were also made in Culture at the end of the fiscal year, including $330,000 for DRUM!, $200,000 for the Black Cultural Centre, $200,000 for the Gaelic College of Celtic Arts and Crafts.
[12:15 p.m.]
Mr. Chairman, our program and policies in Culture are guided by advice by the Nova Scotia Arts and Culture Partnership Council. The council, formed in 2003, is made up of talented, respected professionals with representation from the broad arts and cultural sector and from all regions of the province. Since this council was formed, they have undertaken reviews of all major funding programs, and made recommendations for improvements. While they have been diligently working behind the scenes, I believe you will see greater profile from this group as some of their work comes to fruition.
The council has produced a report with recommendations to develop the enormous potential of the sector and to raise awareness of significant social and economic benefits of arts and culture - we will be working with them to roll out over the next few months. They are also working on the first annual cultural sector conference. This inaugural event will include a day of workshops followed by a prestigious awards banquet and over time is certain to become a focal point for the arts and culture community, much like the annual tourism conference.
Mr. Chairman, there are always some who believe that arts and culture should be delivered differently in Nova Scotia. I want to make it very clear that today, under our current approach, more funding is going to the cultural groups and artists as opposed to administration. We have a council with more diverse representation and decisions around artistic funding and still made at arm's length from government through the continued use of juries, while panel processes provide the sector with avenues for input into most other funding decisions. We look forward to continuing our work with the Nova Scotia Arts and
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Culture Partnership Council as we explore our tremendous opportunities for growth in this sector.
On the Heritage front, Mr. Chairman, close to $11 million of our department's budget goes toward the preservation and promotion of our heritage, primarily through the operation and funding of 27 provincial museums and support for 66 community museums. Museums contribute to the economies and well being of communities. In 2005-06, visitor numbers in the Nova Scotia Museums and community museum sites totalled over 0.5 million, while Web sites for those sites were almost 3 million hits.
This year's budget includes $375,000 more to support operations in the museum system and, in addition, we provided $1.3 million more in one-time grants to respond to priority funding needs at many museums at the end of the last fiscal year.
Of course, we know that our heritage is about far more than museums, Mr. Chairman. Heritage is the broadest sense encompassing language, folklore, historic buildings, cemeteries, coastlines, protected areas, archives, and much more. We also recognize that we can do more to preserve, interpret and promote our rich heritage. That is why we engaged the Federation of Nova Scotia Heritage and Voluntary Planning to do a comprehensive, public consultation to find out what Nova Scotians value most with respect to their heritage.
Last month, Voluntary Planning released an interim report containing 49 recommendations, and we greatly appreciate all the hard work that Voluntary Planning's Task Force on Heritage did with consultations and drafting the interim report. Nova Scotians now have until September to comment on that report, Mr. Chairman.
We certainly agree with Voluntary Planning's initial assessment that heritage is a shared responsibility and we look forward to the final report which will guide us and our partners across the government and in the sector, as we develop a long-term provincial heritage strategy based on what Nova Scotians value.
In Nova Scotia's Archive and Records Management, Mr. Chairman, as I mentioned a moment ago, archives are an important part of our heritage, they allow us to preserve our records of the past and make our history interesting and accessible to the public. The Public Archives of Nova Scotia is one of the busiest archives in the country. Recently, staff completed the installation of the new cold storage vault which will help to preserve our province's film heritage for future generations. This project was years in development, was done in partnership with the CBC and the Council of Nova Scotia Archives, and will provide long-term storage for more than 18,000 cans of archival film footage.
Mr. Chairman, we also recognize the vast potential of the Internet. With dozens of virtual exhibits on a wide range of topics, such as mining in Nova Scotia, lighthouses, and the Acadian deportation, our Public Archives is a recognized leader in providing on-line
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resources. We are using this tool more and more to provide world-wide access to archival records, making our archives a significant resource for heritage, tourism, genealogy, life-long learning and educational curriculum development.
Last year, there were over one million visits to Nova Scotia Archives on line and 15 million pages viewed and the on-line team won the Premier's Award for Excellence for their work. This year, we will see more exciting developments including an exciting new project to make historical vital statistics available on-line. The 2006-07 budget includes a new investment of $108,000 and will help to ensure that the archives continues to provide enhanced accessibility.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, we look forward to a busy and productive year at the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage. I am proud to have the opportunity to represent this department. We have a talented and enthusiastic staff who have developed excellent working relationships with our partners across government and in every sector, partnerships that will serve us well as we set out and accomplish the priorities of our 2006-07 business plan.
Mr. Chairman, I believe the priorities outlined in our business plan, together with the $2 million in enhanced funding, will help us achieve the broad vision of both the department and government to strengthen the quality of life for our families and communities and to help Nova Scotia achieve economic growth and prosperity.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth East.
MS. JOAN MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Minister, through the Chair to you. Well, I feel like I'm back in Question Period - 11 minutes, it's a little bit longer, so off I go. I will request a copy of your speech. What I was hoping to do was go through some issues obviously that pertain to tourism and culture in Nova Scotia - arts funding, arm's length council, the Digby Ferry, marketing, signage, Doer's and Dreamer's Guide, tourism information centres, publishing, the lack of stable support there, educational funding, government grants and the application process, museum funding, and the Khyber Centre. But my time is short so I'm just going to get through a few things as much as I can.
I would like first to talk about the arts funding and the arm's length Arts Council, Mr. Chairman. When I had a round table a few months ago with people involved in the cultural sector, the two main wishes that came out of that - and there were a fair amount of people there and we were there for a fair amount of time, hours and hours - the two main wishes that came out of there were to reinstate this arm's length Arts Council and to indeed increase the amount of funding available to that sector. Nova Scotia right now is ninth overall in per capita provincial government expenditure on culture and that's pathetic.
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In 2002, the last arm's length Arts Council to be created in Canada was eliminated by the Progressive Conservative Government and replaced by a government-appointed body. Let's be clear, it's a government-appointed body and these people do report to the government. They don't have any funding authority. Arm's length is a fundamental principle which ensures that, indeed, funding decisions are based on artistic excellence and not political whims or the broader needs of any government. Artists in Nova Scotia, I believe and they believe, should have the same respect and support as artists elsewhere in Canada.
This government should reinstate the arm's length Arts Council immediately and they should be looking towards making an investment in culture in Nova Scotia. Even if we were spending at the national average, it would mean an extra $13 million invested in culture in this province and perhaps we should be looking at gradually increasing the provincial cultural spending to match the average of all the provinces.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out an article that I found when I was flipping through my papers here a couple of days ago - that indeed, an article from around June 2004 which is still pertinent today, addresses again this issue of the arm's length Arts Council. What happened was that apparently the framework that was set up by the Department of Tourism and Culture actually did extend funds to 11 organizations - five of which were actually in the now-Premier's riding at the time. It was justified that these 11 organizations would receive funding even though they were late in applying. It was justified as saying that they just were late, even though another organization similar to them did not get the same treatment. If you're going to set up a process, follow the process. Five of these were actually located in the now-Premier's own constituency.
The Auditor General, Roy Salmon, at the time expressed concerns over these grants in a report to the House of Assembly. His report said, and I quote, ". . . there appears to be an alternative avenue for funding for which there is no defined process and which may not be available to all cultural groups and organizations." So, you know, if we're going to treat people in a certain way and make them follow process, then everybody needs to follow the same process. That's what's called fairness. That's what the people in the arts and culture sector in Nova Scotia are looking for - to be treated with the same respect and with the same support as other artists elsewhere in Canada. We're not going to keep our people here - the best of the best - if we're going to treat them in this manner with this kind of disrespect, I would call it.
Mr. Chairman, I would also like to talk about one of the more recent issues, if I have a few minutes left, the demise of the Princess of Acadia ferry. In the minister's opening statements this afternoon, he said indeed this is troubling news but he's confident a solution will be found. He talked about the tourism plan and that it was grounded in research. Well, the very first page of the tourism plan - in fact the first highlight of that plan - on Page 58 is, strengthening transportation access to Nova Scotia.
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Now, if this is the way a plan is followed out in Nova Scotia, then it's not the way I think most tourism operators want to kick off this summer, thinking that this is a cloud over their heads for indeed next summer. So we see the demise of the ferry, the loss of employees, the direct hit to tourism yet again actually in an area of the province that has taken some hits lately. The numbers have been dropping. The end of this run will indeed impact tourism because it's going to make motorists make a longer journey than they previously had to.
It boggles my mind that no one, you know, if we're talking about all this planning, that no one in the Tourism, Culture and Heritage Department apparently knew about this before it hit the papers and that certainly we all hope, all of us in Nova Scotia, especially those tourism operators in Digby and in fact right across the province - because people are going to travel. They're not just going to stop there; they're going to come on through. This is going to affect a lot of people right across the province. So certainly I hope the department is going to do everything possible to save that service, and I think the department needs to go back to their planning and if they're talking about grounding things in research, they need to get on the phone and do some more communication, between summers maybe.
Mr. Chairman, I would also like to take a few moments to talk about educational funding. Even though, you know, the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage is not the direct holder of the educational funding purse, they do sit in Cabinet. Funding shortfalls now threaten a whole new generation of artists in Nova Scotia. Supplementary funding in HRM, which funds most of our music and drama programs in our schools, is constantly on the chopping block.
The increased costs for band, drama, dance and other cultural activities inside and outside the public schools have put arts out of the reach for many young Nova Scotians. I know, especially in my constituency, there are families that can barely afford to put food on their table and they just simply do not have the money to put their children in these private dance lessons, private art lessons and these sorts of things. It's so important that we give our children in our schools the proper tools, the proper equipment, and the proper teaching resources that they need to strengthen their skills in this area. So I do hope that the department is going to recognize the role that that department plays, indeed in arts and culture, in our education system. I hope that they will look at re-establishing some of the meaningful art programs that the schools did have and indeed some of them that I actually had an opportunity to take part in when my children went to elementary school, such as painting murals in the schools, and you went through an organization with the department and they provided the person to come in to help you do these kinds of things.
Those things cannot be overlooked. That's where it's all going to begin, in our school system with our children, and if we're not going to invest in art education in school, then we're on the road to a real downturn in cultural and artistic endeavours in Nova Scotia, Mr. Chairman. So let's not forget about that.
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I do hope that the minister - I know he is a new minister here in this portfolio and he's new to the House and that he certainly does take what the members here have to say seriously - takes that back to Cabinet, and I really hope that he can work with his other Cabinet members to really try to get something done in tourism and culture in Nova Scotia. I think there's - like he said, it's a sustainable industry. It's here, but it is highly competitive and if we're not ahead of the pack, we will fall behind. I just hope he does his best to work with everyone.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The time is just about up.
MR. GOUCHER: Could I just make a quick statement?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure.
MR. GOUCHER: I just want to thank the honourable member for the comments. I hope everybody understands here, I would have loved to have had my two hours; it would have been my first opportunity with estimates. I did my best to prepare myself for it and I would have liked to have had a little more time with this. I do respect all the comments that were raised and I do give you my word here that I will do my best within the portfolio to carry out those wishes. I do take it seriously. I have a wonderful, wonderful staff whom I do work with, and I'm always available and I'll make myself available.
So I do appreciate the comments, Mr. Chairman, and again, I do wish I would have had a little bit more time here. I do mean that - just to answer some of the questions and try to have them on the record, but I very much do appreciate all the comments that you made and I thank you very much. I also have a copy of the speech there, I'll just put it down there and you can have it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E32 stand?
Resolution E32 stands.
That so ends the Subcommittee of the Whole House on Supply.
[The committee adjourned at 12:33 p.m.]
