HALIFAX, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 13, 2022

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY

6:00 P.M.

CHAIR

Angela Simmonds

THE CHAIR: The Committee of the Whole House on Supply will come to order.

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. KIM MASLAND: Madam Chair, would you please call the Estimates for the Department of Community Services, Resolution E4.

THE CHAIR: We will now return to the NDP, who have 42 minutes remaining in their turn.

The honourable member for Cape Breton Centre-Whitney Pier.

KENDRA COOMBES: I feel like I’m doing a television show and we’re on the last episode.

We were talking about places of safety. The minister said that those who are hired to work at places such as Arden Homes are private sector workers. I’m wondering, how much are we paying in these contracts with Arden Homes?

KARLA MACFARLANE: Madam Chair, I thank the member very much for the question. I want to let the member know that there is a budget of $21 million but it’s not a lump sum that is dedicated to any particular company because we deal with a number of companies when it comes to places of safety for our children. As you know, these emergency placements - it’s not something you project out and know when a child is coming into your care and needs our services.

Some years you know we may have to go over the $21 million because we would never ever deny a child of such service through this department. There are years that you may not use either, but right now there is $21 million allocated for in this budget.

KENDRA COOMBES: I thank the member for the answer, and I appreciate it.

A government press release from November 2021 announced that the government would be spending $34 million over three years to redesign our foster care system. How much is included in the budget for that redesign, and where would we find it in the budget documents?

KARLA MACFARLANE: I would like to inform the member that we made an investment of $34 million over three years, so if we broke that out we would be looking at 2022-23 would be $5,387,000; 2023-24 would be $11,580,000; into 2024-25 and 2025-26, we would be looking at $16,719,000.

KENDRA COOMBES: Thank you. Is the minister able to provide more details of what the design is expected to include?

KARLA MACFARLANE: I want to make sure because there is a lot of detail, so I certainly will be able to read verbatim some of the information I have here.

I would like to share with the member that this is a very exciting time for those that work so hard here at DCS. More importantly, as those employees would agree, this is an incredible step and endeavour that we’re taking and the foster families that provide the love and care and encouragement to these children have been really a part of this endeavour and have been very involved in showing that the step that we take in going forward, that there has been a lot of co-development I would say in this process.

We know that we have to strengthen support for foster families. We’ve heard loud and clear over the years that they’ve struggled, and we have struggled as a province to keep foster families - I wouldn’t say interested, because they certainly provide the interest and the loving care, but there have been challenges. We know ourselves that it’s never easy raising our own children.

The foster care placements that we will be providing will actually take on a different model. We will be implementing a new model that provides more community support for those foster families and children in care. The new foster placement type will include much more enhanced respite care for children with, I suppose, special needs and will also support emergency placements and designated foster homes, improving communication and also having an opportunity to enhance supports for foster parents during child welfare investigations.

We heard loud and clear from those who are foster parents that oftentimes when there is an investigation, the supports aren’t there and it becomes very excruciating to have months of months of being, sort of, held under investigation. We are certainly setting it up to provide more supports for them.

The redesigned foster care program will also prioritize maintaining a child’s culture while in care. Those concerns were definitely heard loud and clear in our discussions. Concerns and recommendations of our First Nations and African Nova Scotian communities will be prioritized to ensure that all needs of children in foster care are met. We will make sure that we have those culturally sensitive and relevant resources there to provide to families and to children and youth in foster care. One way we will achieve this is by recruiting more diverse foster families to ensure that children in care, again, are placed with culturally relevant and respective families and communities that they live in.

When the redesign is fully implemented, there will be an annual increase in the foster care system and that budget will be $16.7 million, as I mentioned earlier, so the $34 million, as I broke down earlier for the member. I would want to mention as well that the Department of Community Services has also implemented alternative family care whereby relatives, perhaps even close family friends and guardians, can receive financial support to look after children who are not in the minister’s care but whose parents are unable or unwilling to be able to care for them.

This program is fairly new but it’s continuing to grow. It’s most important for the child or youth to best be suited in that program. I could go on and on about the program, I have pages and pages, so I will give an opportunity to the member to come back and see if there are any further questions.

KENDRA COOMBES: I thank the minister for that detail. One question I do have is: Will the department be using the Mockingbird family model, and having foster families and third-party access supervised child access visits rather than departmental workers? Is this something the government has been considering? I know it has been a rumour for the past number of years, every time DCS and child protection is being - we hear the words “restructuring” or “redesign”.

Are you going to be using the Mockingbird family model for having foster families and third-party access for the supervised visits, rather than the department workers?

KARLA MACFARLANE: I thank the member for the question. I appreciate that she says “the rumours” because I think that’s what often happens - people decide that they have a vision or an image of what’s going to happen. I think they sometimes have an opinion, and everyone’s entitled to their opinion, but it doesn’t mean that their facts are correct.

I would like to assure the member that it will be the Mockingbird approach, but there’s no third party as she has mentioned. I’m not sure where that’s coming from. It’s incorrect and I hope that she can help smother that rumour because it’s not correct. Thank you.

KENDRA COOMBES: I believe we did just smother that rumour. That rumour actually comes from the last time we heard of the restructuring and redesign of this program. So it’s something that’s been in the water every time this program gets a restructure. Hopefully we’ve smashed that rumour and it is just that, as the minister has assured me.

I’m going to switch to, within the same department - this is racism within the department. The minister’s mandate letter for the Department of Community Services states that, the minister will, within the first 90 days of the mandate, prepare a timeline for completion of all tasks in the letter. These tasks include addressing any structural or systemic racism that is present in existing policies and/or processes for reporting and/or investigating allegations of child abuse by third parties.

We are more than 90 days into the mandate, so is the minister able to table the timeline for these tasks? Also, is the minister able to give an update on the department’s work to address the structural racism within the policies and processes related to child protection. What type of real, in-depth training is being done within the department?

[6:15 p.m.]

KARLA MACFARLANE: Madam Chair, there were a lot of questions there; I think four or five questions. Before I answer as many as I think I was able to write down as the member was speaking, I first wanted to correct on the last bit that we were speaking about, the restructuring of foster care. The member mentioned that it has been restructured a number of times - it hasn’t. This is actually sort of the first time that the system is being restructured in decades - and I mean decades.

I just wanted to let the member know that and, as well, let the member know moving forward with this plan is it’s an incredible plan that we’re all very proud of and excited to be moving forward. It’s one that we consulted deeply on many levels and to let the member know as well that we consulted with children and youth who are currently in the system as well as those that are now out of the system.

With regard to the last question, I guess I’ll start first with the timeline. I will assure the member that I have been instructed by the Premier of Nova Scotia, he has instructed me basically timelines and expectations over the next four years. So far, I have met every timeline that has been given to me. What I will say is that within my four-year mandate, I can assure that all tasks will be completed.

We know that we’re going to run into some challenges, there’s no doubt about that, but I will exhaust every level out there to make sure that I fulfill my mandate. I take my responsibilities extremely seriously to the point that I’m dreaming about it every night and I’m just very proud and honoured to be in this position.

It’s the members’ job to hold me accountable, absolutely, if I don’t fulfill my mandate. But I can assure them that everything so far that’s been required of me has been met on time. That’s not because of me, that’s because of the incredible teamwork I have here at DCS and at Status for Women and L’nu Affairs. If it weren’t for the network of support and wisdom and knowledge behind me, I simply do not know what I would do.

With regard to her question around systemic racism and ensuring that we’re working towards a more diverse and inclusive model of systems that we have in place at DCS, I have to say that I am extremely proud. I’m proud of the work that was done here at this department even before I arrived here eight months ago. Again, much credit to the team that was here before me and the minister that was here before me.

We worked hard and we have created though as well here a new department, and I’m pretty sure that the member may have seen that, that we have created the Diversity, Inclusion and Community Relations division which I could sing their praises for a long, long time.

Through infusing that Diversity, Inclusion and Community Relations division, a multi-year strategic plan throughout all the work that we do at DCS and focusing on African Nova Scotia for the first 18 months, and DCS will reflect a culturally inclusive government department that will have a team of staff that has a much deeper understanding and implementation of all DCS’s anti-Black racism strategy to be embedded in everything that we do. This increased knowledge will definitely help us as we move forward, support on many of the programs and policies that we will be implementing along the way.

It also ensures that there will be a trusting and safe environment where both staff and clients feel valued and have a sense of belonging and an understanding that they will be free from any type of inherent biases. That’s the goal, that’s the strategy, that’s what we’re working towards.

We’re working towards having a very diverse leadership team that will also provide an environment of safety and value and a desire to want to work at the Department of Community Services because the leadership will be reflective of an African heritage model of everyday level of management within all the departments at DCS and, of course, all our offices across the whole province. I’m not just talking about the hundreds who work here at the department in Halifax, I’m talking about the over 1,600 individuals who work within this department.

Again, we use that lens through all of our departments. I’m very proud to know that we are making advances. I encourage all departments and all levels of government to work together. I think there has been a great model started here and some great individuals who are working on this. I hope that helps.

I think I’m going to have to get the member to repeat the other question.

KENDRA COOMBES: The other part of that question was going to be: What in-depth training is being done? But with time not being on our side, I’m going to move on to adoption records. Maybe the minister can send me an email with the types of training that are going to be done with regards to racism in the department.

Recently Nova Scotia joined the rest of Canada by opening up the adoption records. Our caucus was pleased to see the Act established as a role for the department to provide trauma-informed support services for adoptees, their families, and birth families. However, we have some concerns about whether the work is being adequately funded and supported.

When changes were made to the Children and Family Services Act, we did not see resources added to match the increased responsibilities and workloads. As a result, we have seen social workers employed by the department reporting increased stress, burnout, and high turnover. Is there any additional funding in the budget to hire additional staff to adequately support the opening of adoption records?

KARLA MACFARLANE: Any time at all there are questions we can send an email, but to let the member know, absolutely - for all of our employees, it’s mandatory to take the training. That might help her understand that everyone is advised and, like I said, it’s mandatory to take the training. I can certainly send details on what that training looks like, in an email. We’ll certainly get that to her.

With regards to adoption records, there were actually five more employees hired specifically for this. Out of the five there was also one designated specifically for African Nova Scotians.

KENDRA COOMBES: I thank the minister for answering the question and for the suggestion of a follow-up email.

Have staff been provided any additional training related to working with adoptees, their families, and birth families?

KARLA MACFARLANE: We know that opening up adoption records - being the last province in Canada that has done so, there’s been a very thoughtful approach to this and a lot of consultation, a lot of meetings. We certainly recognize that there would have to be some training, updating, education, and awareness brought to our employees around this, so we definitely have informed and made aware to all of our frontline social workers.

For the member’s interest, there always has been a centralized team of support here at DCS with regard to adoption. Now with the addition of five more employees, we want to assure any individual that may be coming forward, anxious about having adoption records opened up, or looking to find their birth parents or their birth child, that there’s counselling available here. We will be lockstep with them through the whole process to assure that there’s guidance and support and counselling - whatever they need.

I’m very proud, again, of how this was designed and implemented, and it’s a very exciting time for many, and also a time that possibly brings much fear and anxiety for some. So we are very sensitive to that, and we feel that we are definitely prepared and looking forward to certainly helping anyone that comes forward.

KENDRA COOMBES: With such a vast department, we’re shifting gears again. We’re going to talk about homelessness now.

In March, 20 people were suddenly evicted from their homes in the New Waterford apartments, and the building had to be vacated for multiple code violations. Some of these tenants were clients of DCS. Is the minister taking any action to ensure affordable rentals, specifically where DCS clients are placed, are safe and properly maintained?

KARLA MACFARLANE: We all know that having a home is really, at this point in time, a luxury. Having a place to call home and have a sense of belonging brings everyone a good feeling. One of the things I want to say with the clients that this department deals with, that is always our number one goal: to ensure that they live where they want to live. We don’t choose it for them. We may give options and say, oh, we’ve seen this available or that available. Ideally, at the end of the day, it is the client who determines where they want to live.

With regard to building codes or anything like that, it certainly is not in our jurisdiction to look after that. It’s definitely not something that is in our control or our responsibility. I certainly remember the unfortunate situation that the member is speaking about, and I do remember us working closely with them to ensure that they had a safe place to stay.

[6:30 p.m.]

I won’t get into all the details, but I can assure the member that we did work with them and find safe, warm places and provided any resources that we could at the time for them. Again, we are not responsible for any type of building codes or anything like that. It’s just not under our purview. I hope that answers the member’s question.

KENDRA COOMBES: Yes, the Department of Community Services and the Housing First workers who showed up were top-notch, they were fantastic, and we worked wonderfully as a team.

Oftentimes money is going to these landlords, or money is provided to clients to be able to afford rent, but these places are not safe. I just feel that it is incumbent upon the department to ensure that the places specifically that clients are renting, are not just - most of these places are going to be affordable because they can’t afford anything else, quite frankly. We need to make sure that they are safe and properly maintained because the last thing we want to do is put people in places where it’s unsafe.

Is the department looking to - or advocating might be the better word - at landlord licensing as an option to ensure that their clients are not in unsafe conditions?

KARLA MACFARLANE: First, to acknowledge that I realize that not all landlords may be fulfilling what I would say would be the responsibilities of being a good landlord. I would have to defend - there are many incredible landlords out there. I don’t think that my constituency, Pictou West, is much different really than other MLAs’ constituencies.

I will say that we all have a responsibility to work together. With having over 22,000 cases it’s hard - almost impossible - for us to be able to determine and have the ability to know what the housing environment of all those 22,000 cases are.

I can assure the member this, our social workers, our case workers, and anyone who is working with our clients, they work closely together. When they do that, they form a relationship and a trust - the clients will let the social worker know that they are in an environment that is not necessarily conducive to their needs and is putting possibly them or their children in danger. If that is the case, and it becomes knowledge to us that that is what’s happening, we will work extremely hard to ensure that they get out of that dangerous situation.

The other thing that we would want the member to know is that we work extremely closely - I would say probably more than ever - with the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing and the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Internal Services. We are in close contact. We are trying our very best to build those relationships so that we really understand what’s happening in each other’s departments so that when there are challenges and when there are things that are not working in the best way for clients, we can adjust those. We can work collectively together to do better for our clients.

Again, the Residential Tenancies Act is not under the Department of Community Services. I can assure the member that we will help anyone that’s finding themselves in a very challenging situation and an environment that they feel is unhealthy and unsafe to them and their families.

KENDRA COOMBES: National research has confirmed that 20 per cent of the homeless population in Canada is comprised of youth between the ages of 13 and 24. In a given year, there are at least 35,000 to 40,000 youth experiencing homelessness in Canada. They may be temporarily living in hostels, staying with friends - in Cape Breton, we call that couch surfing - living in squats, renting cheap rooms in boarding houses or hotels, or actually living in the streets.

A high percentage of youth experiencing homelessness are also in the care of Child Welfare Services. Does the minister know how many youth in Nova Scotia are experiencing homelessness?

KARLA MACFARLANE: We’re diving deep into trying to find that number, so I don’t want to take up too much time. What I will say is that the By-Name List here in HRM, for those who are homeless, is 527. But again, I think there’s a lot of misconception out there, understanding what that By-Name List actually represents. When we hear 527 individuals homeless in Halifax, that doesn’t actually mean there are 527 individuals on the streets or sleeping precariously around HRM. We know that this situation is very fluid.

In fact, yesterday, coming into the office here, I spoke to a gentleman who had spent the night at the Brunswick Street Mission. He indicated to me that he was only there for a couple of nights because there was something happening with his apartment on Gottingen Street, and that he would be getting his key and going back there today.

The youth is very concerning. I know the number is low, but I don’t have the exact number right here. I certainly will endeavour to get that number to the member. Again, for the record, for the members of the House, too, to realize that, again, there are probably around 20 - definitely fewer than 25 - who are actually living on the streets.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Sydney-Membertou.

HON. DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Thank you, Madam Chair. I’m sorry, you had a question? Okay, we can get it. We’ll figure it out on the way through.

I really appreciate the opportunity to get up and have a conversation with the minister. I know that there a lot of good people behind that screen with you too, who I worked with over the years on a number of projects in Cape Breton, or any issues that arose.

I’m really going to focus the time that I have specifically on the community at home. I encourage any Cape Bretoner to text me now if you have a question for the minister. That goes for this side and the government side as well. I see the member for Glace Bay - if he wants me to ask any questions, just send me a text.

I’m going to be a little bit all over the place - I don’t come with lists of questions. I always kind of look at this as an opportunity to have a conversation. I’ve always had a good relationship with the minister. We’ll get into a few different topics, but there are some key issues in Cape Breton that have been worked on over the years, and some of the issues we’ve talked about here during Estimates.

I always do my best to recognize the fact that CBRM is the second-largest municipality in the province. We’re a population of 100,000 people. Many of the challenges that we have here in Halifax when it comes to supporting our most vulnerable are similar issues on the Island, specifically in the CBRM.

First, I’m going to go to public transportation. The minister probably knows where I’m going with this. This is around the bus pass that was brought on as a pilot last year. The minister indicated in a question in the Fall that they were looking at expanding that program to more folks, so I’ll ask for an update on the CBRM transit pass program start.

[6:45 p.m.]

KARLA MACFARLANE: To the member, I want to thank him for certainly being a part of this endeavour. It’s gone very well, extremely well. He is correct that there are a lot of great people involved in getting to where it was. Initially it was a pilot project where there were 100 individuals that were on income assistance that would take part. As he would know, it was a partnership with CBRM and the United Way.

We are continuing to be totally invested in this. We are increasing it. I don’t have the number right here in front of me, I can get it back to you, but I want to assure the member that we definitely are moving forward and excited to continue working. It is a little difficult with the public transportation system there - maybe just because of the geographical area and the fact that we do have to use some taxi services too. But we’re certainly willing to continue the relationship. We’re continuing to be creative in our ways and how we can assist individuals to use this system.

We know at the end of the day that it’s important to have transportation. I don’t know anywhere in this world where there’s public transportation that is not somewhat subsidized. We know that having transportation meets all of our basic needs. More importantly, I would say, probably, our emotional needs. I hope that helps, and I’ll certainly get the number of what the actual number is that’s being invested and expanded on.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I appreciate that. I remembered meeting with staff at the time and we were talking about some of the numbers around how many families were actually on a bus route in the CBRM compared to how many were not, which was significant. I think at the time there was over 7,000 families were accessing it, and I think 3,000 were on a bus route. The vast majority of folks weren’t.

It actually would be a question - I saw the Minister of Municipal Affairs, but I would probably ask the question to Public Works too. I think one of the biggest ways you could help the CBRM is with transit, and with some of the bus shelters and the infrastructure that would be associated with it.

I’m really happy to hear that that pass is successful - I’m standing next to my colleague here, the member for Bedford Basin, who was involved with those conversations as well. I drove her crazy, and your deputy, and here we are with a successful program. I’ll stop there on public transit.

You mentioned the United Way - there are a number of great organizations that help support families within the community. The United Way plays a part, but I look at Every Woman’s Centre in Sydney when it comes to some of our most vulnerable in the community, when it comes to the Ally Centre also. I know that at times when funding was difficult to obtain, DCS was a big part of helping these organizations get the support they need.

There’s been some talk around Sydney about looking at housing everything under one roof. We have a number of organizations that are within the city, but there’s some talk around putting all those services together so it’s one stop for folks to go in and get the help they need. I’ve had conversations with most of them over the years and it’s just something that I’ve been hearing in the last little while. Is there anything that you can update me on when it comes to looking at some of the programs that we’re offering, and this idea of putting them under one roof?

KARLA MACFARLANE: I just want to let the member know as well that all the funding that was directed towards the pilot program for transportation was not all used last year, so we also will be carrying that over. I want to just clarify that. With regard to this most recent question, I think the amount that is being carried over, sorry, is $213,000, so that’s good news.

No, we have not heard anything about what the member is mentioning, that all those good organizations are to come under one umbrella. We have not heard anything to that, but I am more than happy to sit down with the member and learn more. As of right now I am not aware of anything of such.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I realize that’s kind of one of those far-fetching questions that you probably wouldn’t have a lot of information on. I think it is an important conversation. I appreciate that the minister and staff would be willing to engage in that.

One of the other aspects I want to bring up was around some of the amazing organizations that we have in the community, whether it’s L’Arche or Horizon or Haley Street on the Northside, or Breton Ability Centre is more - for the residents, it’s really their home. There’s an elevated level of support that’s there. But at the same time, they’ve provided a lot of training opportunities and there are some really great initiatives happening there.

There is the big conversation around what the future holds for organizations like Breton Ability and residents eventually leaving that location and moving into the community, into a more inclusive environment. There is some talk around Sydney about that, and I am looking for an update on that as well, if you have one for Breton Ability.

KARLA MACFARLANE: I know the member is very well aware of the commitment of this government - as with the previous government - to ensuring that we create more small option homes. We know that institutionalized facilities in congregate settings is something we need to reduce. We are extremely committed to that. I realize that the member’s government started that process, Roadmap 2013, but we are working closer and closer.

What I can assure is that the facilities located in Cape Breton that he would no doubt be most concerned with, we have great relationships, and our department is working closely with those facilities to see what the future does look like for them.

We recently closed Harbourside in Yarmouth. It’s a very delicate process in doing so - it’s not like the member and myself packing a suitcase and saying hey, we’re going to go move here now. This has to be a very thoughtful, caring process because we want to ensure that not just the clients - obviously at the end of the day they are a common denominator, the ones that we want to be able to please the most. We also have to ensure that staff is involved in those conversations, sometimes even right down to the design work and how the new community small options homes will look and feel.

This is a great project, but it is going to take time. We are moving as fast as we can and I will say that we have no idea, really, what facility would be the next chosen facility to close. Ultimately, conversations are being had with so many facilities across the province as well as with clients and their families, and we have to look at what their needs are. We want to make sure that it’s client-centred, human-centred, to ensure that they can speak on their behalf of what they want.

There may be someone that wants to move a Small Option Home, to Halifax. There’s a lot of conversations that have to be had. It’s going to be a wonderful day when we draw closer to closing more. We’re excited about that, and we have great plans and new programs as well when we move a client into Small Option Homes. I hope that helps a bit to clarify our relationship here at DCS with a number of the facilities in Cape Breton.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I appreciate that. It’s not for me a question of how fast it’s going to happen, I know these things are going to take some time. It’s interesting because you see a bit of the evolution in some of these locations as well.

You look at Breton Ability Centre, to have the new home that they just built that we announced a few years ago. Now you have businesses that are popping up within the building; now you have some other initiatives that are happening. It’s not just a conversation about leaving the facility and getting into the community.

I want to advocate that these wonderful programs that are continuing to be developed as we go, stay within these communities and also that the residents have access to them. We do have some great organizations in Cape Breton when it comes to the support that we provide families at home.

I want to talk about the Sydney shelter - it’s fairly new. It’s been open the last number of years, and it’s full. We had an issue in Sydney where we had a hotel that was actually, at one point it was sold. The proprietor changed hands. We had residents living there too as well and they lost that option. I’m looking for a bit of an update and really kudos to the folks that are operating that facility, they’re amazing.

I’m looking for a bit of an update in kind of what the plan is for the greater Sydney area when it comes to helping to battle homelessness. It is a big issue and our shelter is full.

KARLA MACFARLANE: This has been a challenging year for individuals who are finding themselves homeless. We’ve been working extremely hard with all partners across the province.

Particular in Cape Breton, I do have some numbers for the member. I’ll mention within the Cape Breton area, we have invested $553,000 towards 14 supportive housing units. We’ve also invested in a housing locator trustee and as well as $20,000 into emergency shelter where we supported one in Sydney as well as Port Hawkesbury. Just for the members information as well, the CBCHA shelter receives $618,000 annually. That is guaranteed money.

[7:00 p.m.]

The relationships are ongoing and sometimes they expand as well. We’re always open to communicating and discussing with our partners in those areas, but if the member knows anyone else.

We know that homelessness is often driven by individuals who find themselves possibly in situations of domestic violence, or they find themselves with mental health and addiction issues, or possibly have lost employment. These are serious, serious concerns of ours at this department. We want to ensure the member that we are continuing to work with our partners in Cape Breton as well as strengthening them and expanding where we can.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I appreciate that very much. I’m coming to the end of my time here, so maybe this could be the last question for this round. I want to talk about food security, an issue for folks in communities all over the province. I know the work that Feed Nova Scotia does to help support that.

In Sydney, we have some really great organizations with New Dawn and the crew with the Good Food Bus. The department has been supportive of all of that. You can never put enough money into that when it comes to trying to support folks.

This is more of your thoughts on this. I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it to the Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development here in the Chamber as well - I’m looking for how we’re going to feed our children. We do breakfast programs in the schools. There’s been a lot of work done on a lunch program to help support our kids.

I’m looking for what DCS may be able to support within the budget, but really what are your thoughts around getting to that next step. If we can provide that extra meal for our school system or our kids in our community, that will go a long way. Maybe some of your thoughts on that and some of your plans when it comes to food security, particularly with our kids.

KARLA MACFARLANE: Madam Chair, just before I answer the member, I need to inform that for my department here, all we’re seeing on Legislative Television is the streaming of the Public Accounts Committee. So none of my department can hear questions. I don’t know if it’s Legislative Television. If you could send someone up - it’s been streaming PAC for some time now. We thought it would be corrected. If you could correct it as soon as possible, that would be greatly appreciated.

THE CHAIR: They are working on it. We can call a 5-minute recess.

KARLA MACFARLANE: No. We’ll keep going. We just wanted to make sure that they were aware.

It’s a great question from the member. Food security is huge, it’s a colossal issue. I’m happy to say - and the member may recall - that a $1.2 million investment was made, ensuring that Feed Nova Scotia recently received $1 million that would ensure that the 140 food banks that they partner with across this province would be receiving help, as well as we invested $200,000 to go to about - I guess it worked out to about almost 20 different food banks across the province. I do know that a number of those were in Cape Breton. I can assure the member that we certainly are doing our best to get a fair share to Cape Breton as well.

As well as my mandate letter, again, it dictates to me that I need to come up with a poverty strategy. We’ve already begun work on that. We take that direction very seriously. I’m happy to say the conversations are happening between the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development, the Department of Health and Wellness, the Department of Agriculture as well, as we determine what kind of path we can go down to ensure that everyone has food.

I think it was last week I heard a member from the NDP stand up and say that there shouldn’t be any food banks. I get what they are saying, but we need to break down those barriers and stigma that it’s bad to go to a food bank. It’s not bad to go to a food bank at all. It’s extremely important that us, as members of the Legislature, that we ensure that people do not feel embarrassed to go to a food bank.

Recently an individual in my area wanted to know if we could meet them at night because they didn’t want anyone to see them. None of us know when the day may come that we need to access a food bank. There are unexpected and unintended consequences in our lives every day.

We are working very hard on the poverty strategy. Within that strategy there will be a component that will address food poverty. I hope that helps answer the member’s question.

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Thanks for that, minister. It was something we were so close on in my time in education. Really, the philosophy was, just go to where the kids are. The kids are there in school. That’s why we did the breakfast program, that’s why we worked so hard on the lunch program. We know that the kids are getting many supports at school and this could be just another such important aspect, not only first and foremost for them, but logistically, as you are trying to determine the resources necessary to implement this, they are there.

Again, I put the same plug in when I was doing Estimates for Education and Early Childhood Development: I think that’s the next big step we can do to help our kids, to feed them lunch.

I’m going to stop there on questions. I will finish with a comment, and I hope I get a few minutes - I might not but we talk a bit, so I’m hoping that you and I can have a conversation about some of what we talked about tonight. My only advocacy is this, and it was something that came up during our time, too, as well: we have great organizations all over the province. I always use Chester Borden as an example. Chester Borden is a hero in Cape Breton for what he does for the kids, not only of Whitney Pier. Everybody thinks Chester is just in Whitney Pier - the bus shows up at Shipyard Elementary up off Alexandra Street to pick up the kids there too. My kids are in that school. He is a hero.

Chester’s whole existence is to look after those kids. Chester has to fundraise all the time and it is tough. I use Chester as an example because he is one of my best friends. We were involved with buses and rinks and buildings and programs, looking at afterschool programs. I use food as an example - Chester is feeding hundreds of kids who are coming across the street from the school to eat at his place. If you gave Chester the money, he is feeding the kids, because nobody goes hungry with him.

He has been such a leader in our community, but the conversations that I’ve always had with him - he’s super appreciative of the money that he gets. There are lots of grants we go after. Your staff who are with you, they are a big part of it, and I want to thank them on behalf of everybody who’s involved with that organization.

I think the time has come, and if I was on that side of the floor, I would say the same thing. Operational costs are going up. The grants that we’re giving to these organizations are so important, but it’s time to look at them again because, really, these organizations are going out and they’re trying to just constantly fundraise in an environment that is very difficult to do so. Everybody is scaling back. Inflation is really hurting everybody.

That’s my plug for the Chester Bordens of the world. I see the member for Glace Bay - he’s probably got five organizations in the Bay too. New Waterford, same thing. (Interruption) You should have texted me, I would have referenced all these for you. The point I’m trying to make is that as you go through your budgets - and it would be for any department - just think about these folks. These are the folks who are on the ground looking after our kids.

I’ll leave it at that. I’m going to pass my time over to the member for Halifax Atlantic.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.

HON. BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I agree with the comment there by the member for Sydney-Membertou. There are a lot of people out there who are doing a lot of great work, and obviously costs are going up, and it’s difficult.

I’ll start with a comment that was made yesterday. Yesterday the minister said that poverty isn’t necessarily defined by money. Webster’s defines poverty as a state or condition in which a person or community lacks the finances for a minimum standard of living. Does the minister still stand by her definition given yesterday over the Webster’s dictionary definition?

KARLA MACLARLANE: I just want to give a big shout-out, yes, to Chester Borden. I did want to follow up a little bit on that communication from the previous member, just to let him know that Chester works extensively and collaboratively with our child poverty board, so please know that he’s very much involved and very influential on determining how we move forward with our child poverty strategy.

With regards to the question from the current member, I would say that poverty is significant. It’s a long-term and complex issue, and my definition is perhaps different, but it is frequently intergenerational, and it’s systemic, and it is often rooted in trauma and racism and mental health and issues with addiction. There are no simple and quick fixes. If there were, the Liberal government would have addressed them. The NDP government would have addressed them. Our government decades ago would have addressed them.

At the Department of Community Services, we believe that all Nova Scotians want to provide for themselves. They want to be able to provide for their families, if they have them, and contribute to their own communities and lead fulfilling our lives. Our goal will always be to work with vulnerable Nova Scotians and help achieve what is best for them and what success looks like for them. That is my answer to that question. Thank you.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: What I’ll say to the minister is, what she said about the definition isn’t actually the definition of poverty. They are the reasons for poverty. It’s the outcome of poverty. It’s not actually the definition of poverty. Poverty is defined as not having the finances for a minimal standard of life. That’s what the definition is. Anyone can go and they can look that up and they’ll see that’s what it is.

To continue on that, the minister did say that they want to help their clients live a normal life and be able to contribute to society and be part of society. Does she think that $12,156, which is the standard of living for a family - does she think that helps them contribute financially? Does it allow them to put their kids in hockey or rec sports? Once their rent is paid, which will take a significant amount of that $12,156 a year - which is actually about $1,000 a month - what would she say to the family that doesn’t have money for food? Where do they go for food and where do they go for a hot meal?

KARLA MACFARLANE: Madam Chair, to the member, I don’t think anyone is arguing with the member that there are absolutely too many individuals in Nova Scotia experiencing the challenges of affordability right now. It’s staggering. We know that. It is the reality right now and we are working extremely hard with vulnerable Nova Scotians who are associated with the Department of Community Services.

[7:15 p.m.]

When they come to look for assistance through our department, we work extremely hard to ensure that we’re meeting their needs. They do have access to other resources and programs beyond their monthly income cheque or what they receive from us. There’re all kinds of other programs and services that they can receive.

Just looking at a family that has children; we know that our recent investment of $12.5 million of the Nova Scotia Child Benefit investment that we have made, that will lift at least 1,600 children out of poverty.

For the member to say that we’re not making investments and that we’re not doing anything for individuals who are on IA, that is simply not true. We are investing in programs that we have now and we’re creating other programs. We’re working extremely hard to ensure that everyone is fed.

That’s why we recently made an investment of $1.2 million - $1 million to Feed Nova Scotia to go to the 140 food banks that they are linked with and the other $200,000 that is to other food banks across this province.

We will continue to work with clients and see where we can help them. There are so many other programs. Maybe what might be easier for the member is if I send a list of those programs in an email instead of taking up time in having to go through each and every one of them. I hope that helps.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I would say that I am not arguing with the minister, I’m actually advocating for a minimum standard household raise. I’m not arguing, I’m advocating. There’s a huge difference.

I want to change up a little bit because income assistance, poverty - as the minister is well aware - is circular, and there’s lots of reasons for that. I want to go through this report that I found online called Exploring Youth Outcomes. It’s about aging out of care.

Again, I want to reiterate that these questions I’m asking I know may come across one way or another, but this is a very personal thing to a lot of people. It should be very personal for every single person in this Legislature. There are people who we represent.

I heard the minister refer to food banks. The truth of the matter is that nobody wants to go to a food bank. The minister said they shouldn’t be embarrassed to go to the food bank, or it shouldn’t be a bad thing, but nobody wants to go to a food bank. I’ve spent countless hours there. Every week me and my CA deliver dozens and dozens of packages to families who can’t get to the food bank. We actually used our office for quite a while to help out the food bank. I don’t know one person who came in who really wanted to be on it.

I know that’s not what the minister meant. I just think that when we say things like well, they could go to the food banks and things like that - I don’t think we want our legacy to be ever increasing clients going to a food bank. I think we want a deduction in that.

I want the minister to know that none of this is personal. With these questions I’ll be talking about “aging out” and kids in care. It’s very personal to a lot of people. I actually know a lot of people who grew up in care, just because of my own background. I still stay in contact with them. So I wanted to really dig into this.

This report identifies several key things. The purpose of this paper, a peer review paper, was to identify youth outcomes - and I will table this, just so you know. I am going to continue to reference it and then at the end and then respectfully, I’ll table it. Identifying youth outcomes after leaving care or “aging out” of the child protective system. It discussed reasons why the system struggles to effect positive life trajectories.

“Put another way, this report seeks to analyze data that can help to paint a picture of the lives of youth after ‘aging-out’ of the child protection system and to explore the system’s impact on outcomes.”

This report takes in account across Canada, it takes information from the United States, and also information from the U.K., but it is mostly Canada.

There are seven different outcomes they have come up with. I just want to dive into each one, but I want to give you a little bit of what they are. It says:

“Generally these youth:

1.      have low academic achievement;

2.      are more often unemployed or underemployed;

3.      often experience homelessness or unstable housing;

4.      are frequently involved with the criminal justice system;

5.      become parents early;

6.      have worsened health outcomes; and

7.      experience deep loneliness.”

This what really got me. It says, “If the child protection system was a parent, it may well have its children taken away.” It also says, “Acknowledging that outcomes are poor for the subset of youth compared to their same age peers is key to making effective change.” I agree with that. We’ll get into the data to show where these outcomes have come from.

I know, this isn’t about the staff at DCS. I know they work hard. I know a lot of the social workers - I’ve had personal experience with them. I know they work hard. The truth of the matter is that outcomes are completely different, and they are drastically different. What the paper says is that those in control of the system need to acknowledge that, “. . . outcomes are poor for the subset of youth compared to their same age peers is key to making effective change.”

Does the minister agree that children in care, their outcomes are generally lower academically, in employment, and they are overrepresented in the criminal justice system? Does she agree with that statement?

KARLA MACFARLANE: Thank you to the member for this most important question. I realize that he is very familiar, as he has mentioned.

What I would say is that when a child in our care is transitioning out - of course it would be a child who would be willing to seek this help; we can’t force anyone. We definitely have a program in place that would be considered post-care and really support to determine what they would want in moving forward. Are they looking to go to university? Are they ready to go to university? What needs do they have right now to sort of branch over from where they are to where they’re going to go?

We sort of see that with our own children. We can look at the needs and how delicate all ages are, but I certainly look at this age group and I think of my own children. I think it’s kind of like when they’re 18, 19, 20, 21 - they have one foot in their youth still and one foot in adulthood. They’re not sure what decisions they should be making - and they still need guidance, and they still need support. Here at DCS, we provide that.

There’s no doubt that there are opportunities to do better, and we certainly want to provide that. We’re always striving to do better and find those missing links and gaps that we can fill in to make that transition so much easier for any youth who is transitioning out of care into their own independence. Often that’s what they want, but we all know that they still need to have guidance and support, and above all of that they need love. They need love and they need to know that someone deeply cares and wants to help them advance into that path and journey of success, whatever that means to them.

I will say to the member that we are acutely aware of this. That is why this department before I was minister - and I will continue heavily, because I am one who believes in prevention - we will continue making very thoughtful investments financially into prevention and early intervention programs across this province.

We know that if a child can get a good foundation under them, they are more likely to not have to come into our care, and that is what we always strive for. We are always striving to ensure that we help in creating strong families that feel confident and feel intact and feel like there are value and worth, and they know that they’re good parents. There are programs out there to assist them and to help them.

I, for one - when I had my children, I loved that there was still an opportunity for a Public Health nurse to come into my home, and that there were different programs out there. Even though I had a loving family and a mother to assist, it’s always great to know that those other supports are out there. Please know that it is never our intention. We don’t want to have to intervene in families, and we will continue to make those dedicated investments into prevention and early childhood, because we know that’s where the foundation is created, so they hopefully don’t have to come in our care.

Again, there are resources there for when a youth is transitioning out of care into their own independency.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Thank you to the minister for that very thoughtful answer, and I agree. I think she has a good grasp of this. That’s good, but I will say that it’s difficult for most of us who, when you’re 19, 20, 21 years old, and you’re facing issues, we have a home to go to. A lot of those individuals don’t. I heard her say the word love. That’s nothing to do with Community Services, but a lot of those children do not feel loved, have not felt loved, and do not trust adults. That’s an issue, and that’s another day, and that’s another topic.

I do want to talk about some of the outcomes. I would ask, though, that the minister table for the Legislature the percentage of youth who age out, who actually have follow-up from the Department of Community Services. Not asking for names - we’re just asking for the percentage of youth who the department does follow up with, and to what age they follow up with them.

I want to hit on the academic stuff. We all know that education is the door to everything, it’s the path to everything. Here are some of the key findings of this report. Over the last four decades, poor academic outcomes have been characteristic of former youth in care in Canada and the United States. Youth in care struggle to complete high school; 56 per cent drop out of high school. Every time a youth moves from one foster home to another, or from a foster home to a group home, they lose four to six months of academic progress and they struggle to make up that time.

Group home care predicts poorer academic outcomes. The vast majority of former foster youth wish to go to university, yet - this is what they found - yet a large percentage of them do not.

This was the one that I found actually startling. Being a foster care child is a significantly larger obstacle to post-secondary achievement than is living in a low-income family, being a first-generation newcomer student, or being a particular gender or race alone.

I’m just going to go through some of the stats quickly. The study estimates that approximately 54 to 58 per cent of foster youth graduate high school by 19, compared to 80 per cent of their peers. I can tell you that I graduated from high school just after my 19^th birthday. Only 50 per cent of former foster youth graduated from high school by age 18. Part of the study, which was actually done in British Columbia, found that youth who were never in care were 20 times more likely to enroll in post-secondary studies.

These are big problems. There are lots of reasons why, and we can get into this. I think a big part of it is that for children who are in care, their minds are more on survival and getting through day to day than it is a lot of the things that youth think about day to day. The study talks about youth in care having to make decisions, adult decisions. Before they’re teenagers they are making adult decisions.

I know the minister is new to the role and I think we have seen that she has jumped into this headfirst and that’s great, but I think it’s very important that the department and the minister are aware of these statistics and that there’s a plan. This isn’t about pointing fingers at the former Liberal government or the former NDP government or the former Progressive Conservative government. The truth of the matter is that this Progressive Conservative government is in power now, and they just submitted a health care budget. We know that studies have shown that children in care have worse health care outcomes than children who aren’t in care.

We know that people and individuals who live in poverty have worse health care outcomes than people who are not living in poverty. I’m wondering - and I know it’s a huge question. This is part of breaking the cycle - education is part of breaking the cycle. I can tell you from my own personal experience and the hundreds of foster kids that I know - and I still speak at a lot of these AGMs and annual events - a lot of the kids are not given the importance of post-secondary education like their peers are.

My question to the minister is: When it comes to educational outcomes - and these are raw, hard facts - how do we change this? What programs in this budget will help change this - and I’m not talking about just post-secondary. I’m talking about graduating high school.

KARLA MACFARLANE: I thank the member for his comments and articulating very well some of his own experiences and involvement. These are important conversations. I’m always listening. I’m here to care, and I’m here to find solutions and, as the member indicated, breaking the cycle. Breaking the cycle is exactly what I’m trying to do, but not alone. There are so many people involved, as I know the member knows.

Part of the answer here is that breaking the cycle started with this government. It started with the $93-million investment in this budget. We can’t do everything overnight. There were a lot of heart-to-heart conversations and lots of debates of, where do we start? Where do we invest?

I think we got off to a good start. Within our first eight months, $93 million. Breaking that down, I could go on and on, but I will finish up by saying that expanding our prevention and intervention models of care throughout this province is a start. Investing in redesigning the foster care system in Nova Scotia is a start. Providing wraparound services for children who come into care, who we - we have no idea how to relate to the trauma that they may have experienced, but we will always try, and we will always put every effort and resource forward to help them so that they can do better.

We’ve increased the child tax, $12.5 million - again, that’s going to lift up 1,600 children. Disability supports, $54 million.

THE CHAIR: Order. This concludes the round of questioning for the Liberal caucus. We will now pass it back to the NDP caucus for one hour of questioning.

The honourable member for Cape Breton Centre-Whitney Pier.

KENDRA COOMBES: In the Budget Speech, at the top of Page 12, a reference is made to eliminating the budgetary cap for social assistance-funded, community-based Independent Living Support Program under the Social Assistance Act. DCS officials have clarified that the budgetary cap remains on all Social Assistance Act-funded residential facilities.

My question is, will the minister confirm that there is a budgetary cap on all residential facilities funded under the Disability Support Program Social Assistance Act?

KARLA MACFARLANE: We’re going to have to ask the member to repeat that. We’re very confused. Maybe if she could repeat the question, we’ll have a better understanding of what the question is.

KENDRA COOMBES: That is not a problem. Will the minister confirm that there is a budgetary cap on all residential facilities funded under the Disability Support Program Social Assistance Act?

[7:45 p.m.]

KARLA MACFARLANE: I’m still a little bit perplexed by the question, but I’m going to answer it the best way I know how. If it’s not what the member is looking for, I am sure she will try to word it so that we can understand here.

There’s no budget on any residential facilities, if that’s what the member is asking. We did through this budget uncap the ILS program, which will ignite at least for us to work towards getting 200 individuals off the wait-list. So we made a financial investment into the ILS program uncapping that, but we certainly do not have any type of budgetary cap on what she is speaking of. I’m not sure where that information came from. I hope that helps.

KENDRA COOMBES: It came from Page 12 of the Budget Speech.

Moving on, I’d like to ask about the road map for transforming the Nova Scotia services to persons with disabilities - a call on the government to phase out institutional facilities and replace them with the small options homes by 2023. During the election the Premier said that his goal was to ensure that everyone would have the supports needed to live in community within their first mandate. With the wait-list at more than 1,500, this budget includes funding for only 22 small options homes.

I want to stretch this out with the minister. I hope the department understands that just because it’s a small options home doesn’t mean it’s not an institution. By that, I mean no matter how large or how small a place is, if the inability to go into community continues, if the inability for people to be able to participate in the community continues, it is still an institution. It doesn’t matter how big or how small. If the ability to not participate in community still persists, it’s still an institution.

I’m just wondering, does the department feel confident that the 22 small options homes are enough to meet the Premier’s commitment of reaching the target set by the road map, and also that the funding is there for those living in the small options homes to have the ability to be in community and participate fully in community?

KARLA MACFARLANE: We are absolutely committed to ensuring that we fulfill building more Small Option Homes. What the member needs to realize is that that’s only one option. That’s not what every client wants. We’re totally aware of that.

The conversations that our department has with individuals who are in congregated settings, with individuals who want to move out - they vary completely. Some of them want to move out and live together; some of them want to move out and live alone. This is about having an opportunity and creating an opportunity for clients to make their choices. This is about allowing them to make a choice.

The most recent conversation I had, I think two days ago, was with an individual who decided that, no longer, he decided he wasn’t going to live in a facility anymore. So he left and he was homeless.

What happened is that by working with our department - after we found out that he was homeless and working with his mother and him - he moved into Independent Living. He was able to use that program and we were able to find an apartment that was not far from his mom because he still wanted to be close to his mom but not live with his mom. He also knew that we wanted a bus route. He also knew that he wanted to be so far from a grocery store, and he wanted this and this and that.

These are conversations that we are having with individuals who are in these facilities. We are listening to what they want; what it is they want when they see themselves in community.

We can’t project out that it’s exactly how we want to live. That is why our government has made investments, most recently, into My Days. It’s an incredible program. It will start when residents from Harbourside in Yarmouth transition into their new homes. The program will start with them.

What it means is that individuals get to decide what their day looks like, just like we would. If they want to get up and they want to go volunteer at the local SPCA, we will ensure that that happens for them. Some might decide you know what, I want to learn how to bake; they will go bake. Others may want to work. They may want to put in five hours a day or they may want to work 40 hours a week.

We are creating programs that provide choices and working with different service providers throughout these constituencies in the province, it’s amazing setting up different programs with them. People really want to invest and help. Investments are being made into the Flex program.

I would say that we will do whatever it takes to work fully and collaboratively with clients and their families to ensure that they are part of the community that they want to be part of.

KENDRA COOMBES: Thank you. I am happy to hear that the minister is listening to those individuals with disabilities.

I do want to say one thing to the minister, though. She mentioned 40 hours of work. Many individuals who have disabilities can only work a certain number and can only make a certain number of pay without losing their supports and funding. I think that is a very important thing that we need to know about. As somebody who lives in this world almost daily, I know that to be true.

Moving on, as we all know, an independent board of inquiry ruled that the Province had violated the human rights of Beth MacLean, Sheila Livingstone, and Joey Delaney. Following that decision, an appeal to the Nova Scotia Court of Appeal found systemic discrimination in the cases of all those with disabilities who are forced to live in institutional settings.

The day of that decision, the Premier told reporters that the government would not appeal. The Premier said, “I just don’t think anybody should have to take their government to court to get their government to do the right thing. We received the message loud and clear. We will work with the community to make sure these supports are in place.”
 

Can the minister explain why the decision was made to do the exact opposite?

KARLA MACFARLANE: For the member, I’m well aware that some individuals with disabilities may not want to work 40 hours. I was simply giving an example.

The reason I brought it up was because about a month ago, I ran into an individual who had just started a job in Pictou County working at a coffee shop, and when I had an opportunity to speak to him, he was so excited. He was telling me that he would work 80 hours a week. That’s what came to my mind. He was telling me he was so excited about working and having his own money and getting good pay.

Again, I was just giving examples. I wasn’t trying to indicate that everyone has to work 40 hours a week. Again, it’s about options and working with these clients.

With regard to the human rights complaint and this current question from the member, first of all, I want to say that I think a lot about this situation, and about Joey and Sheila and Beth, about their strength and courage to come forward and use their voice and fight. We know this is before the courts. There’s not a lot that we can say, but I will endeavour to provide some information to the member.

The Court of Appeal’s decision essentially tells us that finding supportive housing for someone under the Disability Support Program should be the same as providing funding to someone entitled to income assistance. But in fact, securing appropriate housing for people with disabilities is an involved and very complicated process. It is in no way as straightforward as making payments under income assistance.

My government does not believe that this comparison can be used as the measure for whether or not a program is discriminatory, but that has not slowed us down. I hope the member realizes that we have been working as quickly, as collaboratively, to keep going. The conversations are still happening. We are participating in all procedural aspects of the board of inquiry process so that the hearing can proceed with little or no delay if the Supreme Court does not hear the appeal.

[8:00 p.m.]

Again, I can’t elaborate on a lot of details as it’s before the courts, but please know that this in no way has stopped us. If anything, we are working quicker and faster as much as we can.

KENDRA COOMBES: It is discriminatory. Just because some people have complex needs doesn’t mean that we just get to put them on a wait-list because - we don’t get to put them on a wait-list. Using the concept that it’s complex and there are complex needs - we all know that those who have disabilities have complex needs, especially when you have lived with somebody who has a disability and has complex needs. You should strive for equity, and we should strive for treating people fairly. I honestly find this appeal personally offensive.

Will the minister confirm that the Supreme Court of Canada rejects the province’s request to appeal, that the province will finally agree to sit down and work out a solution to the discrimination rather than continuing to fight persons with disabilities in what is now the eighth year of their human rights claim?

KARLA MACFARLANE: What I will say is that this government has not slowed down. This government has made a commitment to continue improving and enhancing programs under our Disability Support Program department. We have demonstrated that by what we’ve invested in this budget. Budget 2022-23 will invest $54.2 million for more programs that support individuals living with disabilities.

We care deeply. I recognize that there’s no doubt that everyone in the Chamber has, either directly or indirectly, individuals within their family who may be individuals who need supports through the Department of Community Services, through our Disability Support Program. I recognize that children with disabilities are more likely and will achieve their full potential when they receive services at a younger age. That is what this government has invested in. We’ve invested in those individuals and their families, and we are supporting them so that parents and grandparents and aunts and uncles and brothers and sisters can support their children and siblings at home.

That investment that we’ve made - out of the $54 million, $3.2 million has gone directly to the Direct Family Support for Children program. We will be enhancing and coming up with many new programs and ideas for children living at home with disabilities. I think that commitment alone and those investments tell a very compassionate story. The member, I hope, would realize that it demonstrates our commitment to those living with disabilities and their families.

We’ve also invested $8.8 million to remove the cap on the Independent Living Support Program. By opening up this program, we will decrease the wait-list. We are expecting to probably have around 200 off the wait-list. These are serious and compassionate investments.

This year, too, we are definitely going to be seeing more people moving from larger residential centres to community and independent living options with the right supports in place. We will provide all those wraparound supports. Again, demonstrating that this government had really thoughtful conversations and determined that these financial investments needed to be made.

Also out of that $54 million, for younger individuals in long-term care facilities who we know deserve to be living a life in community with people their own age, we’ve invested $3.5 million so that we can help individuals who want to move into community out of long-term care facilities. This funding will absolutely allow them to do that.

They may want to move to an apartment on their own. We know actually a couple individuals who are taking up on the program and moving in together here in HRM. This will allow them to be with individuals who have common interests in their own age group.

We are absolutely investing. Again, I think $54.2 million demonstrates our commitment.

KENDRA COOMBES: It’s not compassion to take people with disabilities to court. It’s just not. You can put all the money into programs, but continuing this appeal is not compassionate - I’m sorry, it’s not. It’s hurtful to so many people and to so many families.

So many families and individuals who are hurting - it doesn’t feel like compassion to them. It feels painful to them. I need the department to hear that, I need this government to hear that - it is painful. To hear government talk about how much they’re spending, but yet still taking people to court - it is painful.

With that, in a statement about the decision to appeal the ruling, the minister said that, “Many significant questions arise from the Court of Appeal decision that we believe the Supreme Court of Canada may help us to resolve. These questions include the impacts and implications of the systemic finding for other social programs delivered by government.”

I don’t see that correlation myself personally. What I really want to know is this: you’re spending all this money and you’re telling us how much money you’re spending for those living with disabilities, but how much money are you spending on this court case? Can the minister give me an approximate total of the legal costs of this court case to date?

KARLA MACFARLANE: No, I don’t have the cost on what lawyers or the legal aspects have cost the government at this point in time.

KENDRA COOMBES: Well, I think while the minister is telling us how much they’re spending, I think they should also be telling us how much of that money they’re spending on taking people to court. I would ask the minister to please follow up and send us an email on that.

I’m going to move on from this. Our office has received many complaints about the changes in the department to a centralized intake process for ESIA. The change has resulted in long waits to access services and support. Many IA applicants do not have access to phones or unlimited calling but have been expected to wait on hold for more than an hour.

What specific steps has the department taken to accelerate the intake and remove barriers to this intake process?

KARLA MACFARLANE: I thank the member for this important question. We certainly were aware of earlier challenges that the member mentioned.

I think that it’s fair to say that whenever you implement a new service to try and make things smoother and have better access, there’s no denying that once in a while you may face a hiccup or two. We certainly did and we’re not denying that. We acted really quickly on that. We were able to engage staff to look into it and do a deep dive. A lot of extra work and longer hours went into it to ensure that there were process changes that could happen and that the phone system was improved greatly.

We also took time to train the staff again and make sure that intake staff were being supported so that they could identify what issues and problems they saw with the system. At the end of the day, the end result was that there were improvements in the processes that we were using with the system.

I would say that it has been months now that we’ve seen great improvements. This was an issue that I had heard about in the Fall, but we acted quickly on that. For the member’s information, right now our wait time is basically from 10 seconds to a maximum of 9 to 10 minutes - that would be in a 30-minute window around lunch hour.

[8:15 p.m.]

I’m not sure if the member is asking the question because of concerns that were had many months ago or if this is something right now. But we will continue to ensure that we listen clearly to those that who intaking the calls, we’ll listen to MLAs, we’ll listen to any community individuals that want to suggest ideas, or if they’re hearing anything, we certainly want to know about it.

As far as I know at this point, the processes have improved greatly and we are not receiving the concerns like we did in the Fall when we stood up the program for the first time. I think that we saw great improvement since then. Also - and this was just indicated to me - 90 per cent of all calls are answered in 26 seconds or less since March 20^th. Very proud of that and I know that we’re always striving to evolve and do better, but that’s a pretty good record.

KENDRA COOMBES: I have one more question before I hand it over to my colleague for Halifax Needham.

With the centralized intake process, can local offices make decisions about funding hotel rooms when needed, and what are the criteria considered?

KARLA MACFARLANE: The centralized intake system would not specifically go right into helping an individual who was calling. The purpose of the centralized intake system is to allow the individual to provide what their needs are and then from there, to take information and streamline it, so that they can determine where their information needs to go within our department.

Once that’s determined, it could be with regard to being a match with a caseworker or a care co-ordinator. Then from there, once they’re matched and they have that individual working specifically with them, it’s from there that referrals would be made to a hotel - or whatever their needs may be.

Again, for clarification, the centralized intake system does not mean that the person that answers on the other the line is the person you are going to be working with. They will take all your information, streamline it, and make sure that the information provided is sent to the appropriate department. From there, that’s when they will get their help that they’re requesting.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Halifax Needham.

SUZY HANSEN: I’m going to just move on to homelessness. The minister and I have had conversations about this as well, but I just want to get to know your understanding on this, and then we will go from there.

Since 2019, just in HRM, we have seen the number of chronically homeless go from 124 to 544. That’s only the numbers that have been tracked. Are there currently enough shelter beds available in the province to meet the current need?

KARLA MACFARLANE: What I can tell the member is that currently on the by-name list, which is a list that is provided to us by AHANS - they’ve indicated that right now there are 527 individuals in the HRM area that they would consider homeless. As I earlier stated, there’s really only about 20 individuals who are sleeping in the rough.

We’ve made investments to really stabilize the sheltering system here in HRM and, really, across the province. The member probably knows some of the investments that we have made, but I will try to focus mostly on the investments that are made locally in the HRM area that she no doubt is more concerned with.

We have great partners with the North End Community Centre and Out of the Cold. Out of the Cold has been the lead service provider with the module in Dartmouth, as well as the North End Community Centre - they have taken over responsibilities for the Overlook. As well, we’ve made large investments in the Fall - over $10 million in the Fall - into all of our different shelter support systems throughout the province and, as well, here in Halifax. We also invested in the Shelter Diversion Support Program. There are large investments being made - a lot considering that when we look at the increase in the homeless program, there has been an increase of 179 per cent.

Our government obviously is showing great commitment in addressing the homelessness issue, not just in HRM, but across this whole province. I would say that we’re doing a pretty good job of stabilizing it, and we’ll continue making those investments and providing the wraparound supports. We’re anxious to certainly see the other modular units in Halifax here. Hopefully within the month of May, we’ll be able to provide housing there, too.

Also, with the modulars and the Overlook, we have to recognize that those locations are providing permanent housing with wraparound supports. We’re committed to working with the North End Community Centre as well as Out of the Cold. I hope that helps a little bit.

SUZY HANSEN: Thank you so much to the minister. I really appreciate that information. I am very aware, as fortunately I am in a lot of contact with a number of these service providers. It also brings me to a question, but you can answer it after because this is not the question that I’m going to ask - just keep this in mind.

When we talk about these service providers - the great work and amount of work that they’re doing for our communities, and the work that they’re picking up from the province - I would hope that the funding is included along with that when we say really great things about these particular service providers. Just from speaking to them, I know the barriers to accessing funding, along with having staff doing multiple roles. I just want to keep that in mind.

In the last calendar year, the Department of Community Services spent more than $1.5 million on hotel rooms for ESIA clients. Was most of this due to the lack of appropriate housing options? How much has the department budgeted for hotel rooms for this year?

KARLA MACFARLANE: Just for the member, on her last comment before she opened up with the preamble on this most recent question, I just want to remind her that there was an increase of 179 per cent. When the member mentions trying to get funding, I sincerely hope that she understands that a 179-per cent increase from this government - we are working with all service providers that come to us, that have been with us. We have expanded. I just hope that she understands that 179 per cent is a great increase. We’ll continue making those investments.

With regard to her latest question around hotelling, there are times when IA clients - especially through COVID‑19, when they had to follow Public Health measures, we took responsibility. If there were individuals who had to leave their home because they had to isolate due to COVID‑19, we made sure that we worked with them and provided hotelling for them.

You have to remember, though, that there’s a lot of reasons why sometimes we house individuals in hotels. It could be, sadly, a domestic violence situation where we would make sure that a family were put in a safe location - that may mean a hotel. There are lots of reasons why we have to access hotels - for the member to know that it’s part of our programming.

Although there was a $1.5-million investment last year, it doesn’t mean that that’s going to be the number this year. It may be less. It could be greater. Here at DCS, we always respond to the client’s needs. Determining what their needs will determine, at the end of the day, what amount of money was spent on hotels.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Dartmouth South.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Good evening to the minister and to the staff there. I have a few questions for the minister in her capacity as the Minister responsible for the Advisory Council on the Status of Women. I only have 13 minutes so I’m going to keep it kind of concise, and hopefully we can have a good discussion.

I want to just start by asking whether there has been any operational increase to the Women’s Centres Connect budget. My understanding is that they’re looking for an increase that reflects the cost of living, which I think would be about $50,000 per centre. Is that amount in the budget?

[8:30 p.m.]

KARLA MACFARLANE: I thank the member for the question. We’ve actually made a $500,000 increase in this budget for those centres and for transition homes. Those conversations, though, will be in the coming months to determine how we will allocate that funding and where we feel that funding needs to go. But we will certainly be having those conversations.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: We’re off to a wonderful start. I thank the minister for that answer, and I hope to hear those good news announcements coming down the pipe.

I guess my second question is a little bit broader. We’ve spoken a lot in the last couple of years about the disproportionate impact of COVID-19, particularly on women. My question is whether the minister has asked the Status of Women office to prepare any statistics or analysis about that impact. We have national statistics, and we actually have some global statistics, but I’m not aware of any Nova Scotia-specific statistics - at least coming from the minister’s office - around the impact of COVID-19 on women.

KARLA MACFARLANE: Great question. We definitely conducted a research paper through the Advisory Council. They did a great job and studied the impacts on women during COVID-19. I will say to the member that it was received a couple of weeks ago and I haven’t had an opportunity to have a deep dive into it yet.

I am fully aware that what has happened to women universally during COVID-19. I’m not sure if the member is referring to stats from the actual research paper that was commissioned through the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, but I certainly will be looking at that closely, hopefully next week. If she desires to have a conversation in person about it, I would be more than happy to do that.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Thank you again to the minister for that answer. I would love to have a conversation about it. I would love to see the report. It is too bad, I suppose, that it didn’t come out in advance of the budget, because I guess the segue to my next question is whether there’s been a gender-based analysis of any of the budget items here.

If the answer is yes, what does that look like? There are lots of good initiatives in this budget. We look at things like, for instance, the tax cut for skilled trades, which is great, but we notice that that benefits, by far, mostly men. We don’t see a sort of concomitant program that would benefit women. Maybe it’s there.

Has there been a gender-based analysis done on this budget? I’d love to see the paper.

KARLA MACFARLANE: No, there has not been a gender-based analysis on this budget, but I do want to let the member know that there has been gender-based training across all government, and for me personally, clearly putting a gender-based lens on the work that I do, and the work of this department is one of my top priorities. We’ve had discussions about this. This is something that I personally want to see and will work hard to ensure that.

I often feel guilty when I say that we’ve only been in for eight months. I know that the member needs to hold me accountable, and I know she will, but I hope that I will do better and have better for her during the next budget, or before that, obviously, because I want to keep learning. This has been, this first budget, a steep learning curve, but I want to assure that I want to inject that a gender-based analysis is definitely a priority of mine and the rest of government. We’ll continue working towards that for sure.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I appreciate that answer, and I would really push the minister to create that now and to use the resources available in that department. I really believe that there are certain departments in government that can be centres of excellence. I’ve often said that Develop Nova Scotia should be the place-making clearinghouse for all the other departments. Similarly, I think the Office of the Status of Women should be the place that provides that gender-based lens on the spending decisions of government.

I don’t know how to operationalize that, but I know that it’s needed. I would really encourage anyone who’s listening in that room, I know you have people with you, to try and make that happen, and to try and make that happen well in advance of the spending decisions that come forward from here on, because it’s really important. We know that without that attention to women, to marginalized folks, racialized folks, to 2SLGBTQIA+ folks - we need to have an eye to how the budget impacts everyone.

I’ll use my last couple of minutes to ask about a couple of legislative initiatives that the member and I have talked a lot about over the last several years, and now the member is in a position to do something about them, so I really hope that she will. I’m just going to put them both out there, because I only have four minutes.

One is addressing period poverty, so looking at universal access to menstrual products. I don’t have to convince the member of the utility of that, so I won’t, but I’ll ask her what progress is being made.

The other is on non-disclosure agreements. I know that this is another issue that the minister has worked on, and we know that there is some work happening in this department, and the Department of Justice, and I’m wondering if we could have an update on where that is.

KARLA MACFARLANE: Thanks to the member. Yes, two subject matters that we find ourselves very equally interested in and promoting, especially period poverty which has been an initiative of mine, I think, for eight or nine years now.

I will say that over that time span there have been some advancements and good things have happened. And credit to the Liberal government - there were some good initiatives taken. I’m happy to see that within the school system and the universities that there’s access to menstrual products. Let’s face it, period poverty still exists, and we need to do more.

I’m determined to continue that fight, to see where we can advance and do better in that area. I know that locally I worked with a number of individuals and drugstores to ensure that there’s more awareness and that individuals can access free menstrual products within their community at these drug stores and libraries. There are a number of community-minded people who have done a lot to invest and ensure that there’s access.

Just quickly on the NDAs, this is something that I’ve had conversations with Minister Johns. He knows my deep interest in this, and I thank him and his department for allowing me to share some thoughts. I also thank the stakeholders and those community individuals who have been informing me and teaching me more about this issue.

I know that I will be meeting again by the end of April or May, hopefully, and having conversations with Julie Macfarlane and Liz LeClair again to thank them for the work. I can promise the member that these are two initiatives that I will continue to advance and work on.

THE CHAIR: Order. The time for questioning for the NDP caucus this round is complete. We’ll now pass it back to the Liberal caucus.

The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Mr. Chair, I want to thank the minister and her staff. I know it’s been a long couple of nights. The energy level is great, and I appreciate the answers to all the questions. I know it’s not easy; I’ve been on the other side.

I’m not asking for a long explanation - I just need a quick couple of answers to a few short questions, if that’s okay. I had given you some information from the study around low academic achievement. Could you table for me and for the House the percentage of children in care who graduate from high school before the age of 18 and before the age of 19? Also, the percentage of children in care - and particularly wards of the court who the department would be responsible for - who drop out of high school?

KARLA MACFARLANE: To the member, absolutely, we’ll get that information. I don’t have those numbers right at my fingertips. I wish I did for the member, but I don’t. We will certainly send them along to the member as soon as we get them.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I ask for these numbers, not to politicize them or say they’re a reflection on anything you’re doing. I really do think - as you’ve said a few time, and I agree 100 per cent - that all parties have had a hand in this. I think that in order to overcome these issues, we need to understand what’s happening and get to the root of it. Part of that will be resources, too.

[8:45 p.m.]

I want to go through some other information here. I’m sure that you and your department are aware of this. I’m just going to go through some of the other information and ask that we be able to get some of this information locally.

Some of this stuff is really hard information. It’s hard to read and it’s hard to listen to. Under the Unemployment and Underemployment section of the study, it said,

“1. Despite differences in policy, the United States, United Kingdom, Australia and Canada all have poor employment outcomes for former youth from care.

2. Unemployment and underemployment is higher among youth who age-out of care compared to their same age peers as well as peers from other disadvantaged backgrounds.”

This one is - and I’m just giving you this information because it’s Canada-wide study, but I would like to get the local information because this one really is troubling. It said,

“3. The majority of youth who age-out of care live in poverty.

4. As many as 90 percent of youth in care may be on welfare within six months of aging-out.”

This one is really hard to read, but

“10. Former foster youth are four times more likely than the general population to engage in transactional sex.”

I’m wondering, with those startling numbers - and these are nationwide numbers - does the minister have the underemployment numbers for children who age out, and could she please table that in the House, please?

KARLA MACFARLANE: To let the member know, I have not seen the report. He obviously has a good understanding of this report. Maybe, once after I read the report and have equally the same understanding, I will certainly endeavour to answer all the questions that he is asking around this report. That’s all I can provide on that, sorry.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Just to show that I’m not being partisan, this report was done by an individual who later on became a Progressive Conservative candidate in Ottawa.

I understand that you don’t know the report, and I will table it for the minister. It’s not about not knowing the report. I’m just wondering, when it comes to unemployment and underemployment for youth aging out, this report was done that showed statistics across Canada. I’m wondering again if the minister can get the underemployment and unemployment, as well as kids who age out of care, the percentage who end up on income assistance and the percentage who end up underemployed or unemployed. That’s to do with that section.

I’m going to jump on to some more numbers. When it comes to homelessness and housing insecurity, the rates of homelessness are elevated for youth who have aged out. Youth are most vulnerable to homelessness in the first six months of aging out. Couch surfing is common among youth who age out in their mid-20s. The rate of homelessness in Ontario, for example, was 43 per cent of the homeless youth had been involved in Child Protection Services. That was done by Our Voice Our Turn. That information was collected by them.

Ontario has that information on homelessness and housing insecurity, and along with the unemployment and income assistance recipients, other jurisdictions have that data. I’m wondering if we can get that information on many people in HRM and how many people across Nova Scotia who are adults now, were in care at one point or had contact with the Department of Community Services?

Some of the other information, I’ll get all of it out there so that again, I’ll just be asking for this information here in Nova Scotia, so I apologize that it’s kind of like an information dump, I apologize for that. When it comes to the criminal justice system involvement, rates of convictions are high, compared to their same age peers, especially for males, so it’s a higher conviction rate.

Part of what plays into that also is gender, race, and cultural background. Early labelling of youth in care, so telling a child that because they are an adolescent in care, it will lead to a reinforcement and later criminality. One Ontario youth said, “As a child I received many labels: bi-racial, orphan, foster child, and Crown ward. These labels profoundly affected my sense of identity.”

I can tell you from personal experience that when kids find out that you are a foster child, you get called names like Pound Puppy, you are told that you are worthless, and that does play into your sense of belonging. Youth in care are detained at higher rates than those who were not involved in care.

We move on to early pregnancy and parenthood. The birth rate for teenage pregnancy is triple or quadruple among women aging out of care by ages 17 to 19, compared to the same age peers. By age 19, half of women who have aged out of care have been pregnant.

There’s a lot of information and I’m going to give that to the minister. The reason why I’m throwing this out there is because there are real issues, and some jurisdictions have collected this data and made it public.

One third of Ontario permanent wards have a mental health disorder. The rate of post-traumatic stress disorder may be twice as high for youth aging out compared to war veterans - that is what this study found. A history of forced sex may expose youth who age out to sexually transmitted infections, mental health issues, and substance abuse. Like I said, I’ll make sure that this goes into the minister’s hand. It’s not light reading, that’s for sure.

When it comes to employment, underemployment, income assistance, representation in the justice system, victims of violent crimes and victims of sexual crimes - some of these jurisdictions are keeping these statistics, and it’s helping inform them on where they’re right and where they have gone wrong.

Does Nova Scotia have similar statistics for these issues, and can the minister please table it before the end of the House session?

KARLA MACFARLANE: I know that the member was able to relay a lot of information there - some of it out of this report, I think. A lot of concerns, a lot of great points that the member is mentioning. I want the member to know that I will personally do everything I can with his questions if he could provide us with the report. There’s no way that I would be able to table something before the House rises. It’s just impossible, and I need to be honest. It’s just not going to happen. I would never want to mislead the member into thinking that maybe that could happen. It’s not.

I’m actually going to go back and watch this, I think, because there was just so much information there, from income assistance to employment to children out of care to sexual orientation. I’m a little lost, but I know that the member will submit - and I encourage him to submit - all those questions and concerns. We will certainly endeavour to get as much information as we can to answer all those questions.

That’s what I can promise here tonight. I can fully be honest here and tell you that there’s no way that information could be tabled before the House rises, and my apologies in advance.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I actually appreciate that. I appreciate a “no” instead of a “maybe.” I’m not saying you’re saying no, I’m saying that this is information we’ll won’t be able to obtain before the House rises.

Essentially, what I’m trying to get at here is that we know, statistically, the outcomes for children in care, and the path to get there is much more difficult. It’s troubling because I think we take a short-term view on these issues a lot of times when these issues should also be viewed in long term, outside of our own mandates, outside of our own government. For children who do not receive the proper care or funding, who don’t get access to sports or healthy food, when they grow to be adults and if they’re in situations where it’s not stable and they’re constantly moving, they’re put in group homes. That is not a normal way to grow up.

[9:00 p.m.]

Statistics show that these children through no fault of their own - I truly mean that - end up in the justice system. Yes, they committed crimes, they end up on income assistance, they end up with lower outcomes. When I say no fault of their own, I mean that. I think until you’re in that situation, you don’t know what you’d do to get by. You don’t know what you’d steal or what you’d take or who you’d go through to get that.

It’s a shame because it’s like we’ve set these children up for failure. These children, as statistics show, who are coping with their own demons, go on to have children of their own. They’ve still not healed and they haven’t dealt with what got them to where they are in life. That’s what a cycle is and that’s where the cycle of alcoholism comes from, that’s where the cycle of drug addiction comes from, the cycle of violence, and the cycle of broken homes.

There’s a responsibility of government to do better. Again, I think it’s the short- term view. I often say, and think, that maybe we don’t do enough, some people don’t want - and I’m not saying this with the minister - but some people don’t do enough because these children don’t vote, and they become adults who don’t vote because they’re so disenfranchised by the whole system.

I ask that these numbers be presented because it’s the raw data and it shows us where we’ve succeeded and where we’ve failed. With a $1.2 billion budget, I think it’s extremely important to know what works and what doesn’t work. If the minister can get me those numbers, that would be fantastic. I think we just have to turn our attention to the short term and the long term for these children.

KARLA MACFARLANE: I want to thank the member for speaking from the heart. I’m listening. I’ll reaffirm again that I will get as much information to the member when we receive the report in question. We’ll endeavour to get it to him as soon as possible and that I do promise.

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: Sorry, I was ranting a bit there but it is a very personal and emotional issue. I’m going to move onto a different topic, but it bothers me right to my core that some kids have all the advantages in the world, and the others have to fight and struggle and steal and do everything they can just to get food. There’s no respite at home because you have - I almost said a word that I’ve said twice this session but I’m not going to say it - they have really lousy parents and they’ve just lost all hope. That’s what really frustrates me because sometimes I think were they better off there or are we better off here? We were put here, so we’ve got to make what we can with that.

I think there are a lot of things in your mandate letter, a lot of things for you to do. I think it’s extremely important that those children be given a better future and they be given every opportunity, every hope. Quite frankly, they haven’t.

With that, I’m going to pass it over to the member for Kings North. I thank the minister.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Kings South.

HON. KEITH IRVING: The first thing I’d like to talk about a little bit is children’s services. I note in the budget on 6.5, Children’s Services - Field Staff were overspent this year a little bit by about $0.5 million, up to $54 million, but the year over year Estimates are actually decreasing the funds for field staff in children’s services by the tune of about $2.4 million, or 4.5 per cent.

I’m wondering, if you could share with us why there’s been a reduction in field staff for children’s services.

KARLA MACFARLANE: I’m happy to have this question because there haven’t been a lot of questions around numbers so I thank the member for the question.

There has been no decrease actually in the number of frontline staff in children’s services. Unallocated FTEs were placed in service delivery at the end of last fiscal year. Over the past year they have been allocated to other areas needed within the department and spread basically evenly throughout the service delivery and corporate or program divisions. Again, there has been no decrease.

Many of these staff too were allocated to direct service delivery through the creation of seven new care coordinators for the Disability Support Program supports, and nine additional caseworkers for the intake team.

KEITH IRVING: I’m trying to follow the numbers in the FTEs. Those adjustments that you’re suggesting, of moving staff around to different envelopes - is that all happening within this budget area of Programs and Services?

You mentioned it was going to Service Delivery Administration. I see the budget’s gone up a little bit, but obviously not as much as $2.4 million, so I couldn’t follow where all the arrows are going. Is it fair to say that everything is staying within that service delivery section?

KARLA MACFARLANE: Maybe just to clarify to the member, I didn’t say “service delivery administration.” I said, “service delivery,” but not “administration.”

I just want the member to know that some have actually stayed within service delivery while others were moved over to the program division, but to know that they work hand in hand, as well. I hope that clarifies, but I’m willing to hear the next question.

KEITH IRVING: Thank you, minister. I don’t know that it’s completely clear, but what the numbers triggered for me was concerns I was hearing in the Valley about a significant number of vacancies in children’s services, particularly in the field staff.

I was wondering if the minister has some numbers to share with us on the vacancy rate amongst children’s services or child welfare - if you have it for the western district, or if you have those numbers province-wide. I’m particularly interested in the western district, but it would be interesting to know both.

KARLA MACFARLANE: Although I don’t have a breakdown for the area that the member is requesting, I can assure the member that right across all departments within DCS, we have about a 6-per-cent vacancy factor. There’s no doubt that this type of work at Community Services is one that many would regard as being very rewarding and fulfilling, as well as very demanding, and at times can be very exhausting and challenging.

We’re constantly looking to recruit caseworkers and social workers. I think there’s an organic ebb and flow of how everything works within our department’s hiring and recruiting. Generally speaking across the whole province, we would have about a 6-per-cent vacancy factor on any normal given day.

KEITH IRVING: Thank you, minister. If you could clarify for us here, when you’re saying there’s a 6-per-cent vacancy factor, are you carrying in your budget all the FTEs, whether they are filled or vacant?

[9:15 p.m.]

KARLA MACFARLANE: Yes.

KEITH IRVING: Thank you, minister, that’s helpful.

Again, to go back to what I’m hearing from folks on the front line, the area of child protection is extremely difficult and that you have a very, very high turnover rate. I’m wondering if you can shed any light. Yes, across the whole department you have a 6 per cent vacancy rate - in this particular area, presumably that’s much greater than 6 per cent? Can you at a later date provide to me the numbers of vacancies within that division?

KARLA MACFARLANE: For the member, there’s no doubt that it’s extremely challenging and hard mentally for the frontline child welfare social workers. It’s certainly something that we are very much aware of. It’s nothing new, we’ve known for decades the challenges of those roles, but I think the department is doing what they can to support these workers.

In fact, they monitor their caseloads to determine how in-depth they are, and to make sure that they are being supported so that the department is nimble and certainly can take opportunities to discuss this with social workers to see if they may need to redeploy different caseloads. We’ll certainly work toward - and have been working toward - ensuring that there’s casual relief support.

I know that we will be working to come up with a strategy to recruit and retain. We know that HR across all industries right now and all departments - there’s an issue with HR. We are endeavouring to do our very best to come up with a recruitment and retainment strategy, and we will certainly keep working at that and addressing any supports that we can provide to our social workers and caseworkers.

KEITH IRVING: I do understand the challenges there. I think it’s important, when you have these - I think the term in civil service is sticky policy issues, hard to move the needle on. It’s really important to be able to build your case from a position of data.

You did indicate that the department is monitoring caseloads for those staff who are in those very high-stress positions. Can you inform us on the average caseworker and how many cases they should typically be handling to do the job, and what we know about how many cases they are actually handling now?

KARLA MACFARLANE: It sounds like the member has a good understanding of this, and he would be aware that every case is different. On average in Nova Scotia right now, it would be 23.7 is basically the average, but keeping in mind that there may be caseworkers, social workers who would have maybe 10 cases on their desk. However, these would be more intense and require a lot more attention, whereas maybe their colleague would have maybe 30, because they require less involvement. Again, the recommendation is 20.

There is a good balance, and I think with the fact that our department monitors the caseloads, and provides supports, and has the dialogue to go back and forth and to say look, there’s too much right now on my plate. We want to be sure that we’re being supportive, but on average, 23.7.

KEITH IRVING: Thank you, minister. I certainly understand how the numbers work if we use averages. Is there any particular area of the province that you are having significant difficulties, in terms of keeping these positions filled? You’ve indicated that some may be handling 30 cases instead of 20, which is a 50 per cent overload, while the average is only a 20 per cent overload of work? Is there a particular area of the province that you are particularly challenged with filling these positions?

My sense is that in my area of the Valley, up and down the Valley there are particular challenges, but I don’t have any details there. Could you confirm that perhaps the Valley area is perhaps worse off than other areas? What areas of the province are particularly challenged with respect to the staff shortages?

KARLA MACFARLANE: It’s definitely no doubt more difficult and challenging to recruit for a rural area, but I would indicate that there really isn’t a difference in rural Nova Scotia from one area to the other.

In the member’s area, I wouldn’t say that his area is seeing more of a challenge than Cape Breton or Yarmouth. Today we could have maybe 10 vacancies in New Glasgow and that might change in two weeks, and we may see 20 in the South Shore area. It’s very fluid, and we have to accept the ebb and flow of it. It’s something that we accepted the challenge of trying to recruit and retain in rural areas.

Again, I think realizing that the 6 per cent is across the board in vacancy rates, there’s no particular area at this moment that I’m aware of which stands out compared to any other area in the province.

KEITH IRVING: I guess I find it concerning if things are bad in my area, it’s bad right across rural Nova Scotia from end to end. I believe you have a huge challenge there obviously and it goes without saying how important this work is from a preventative measure in terms of keeping these families together - protecting children and supporting families to keep children out of a bureaucratic system. I have to look at your numbers in a different way - if 20 cases is the norm and they’re handling 24, that’s 20 per cent more implying 10 to 20 per cent vacancies in child protection, which is certainly concerning.

I guess my comment around that is, I’m certainly sympathetic to you and your staff on the challenges that we have there. I would just certainly encourage you and your staff to make these numbers public so that you can help convince the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board for more additional funds into this area. You need more support here and those staff and those families are relying on you and your department to find some additional supports for them.

I want to move now to the line on 6.7 in terms of Employment Support and Income Assistance. I know that the minister has been fielding lots of questions from Opposition and advocates about our disappointment that income assistance has remained flat - and the numbers in the budget certainly confirm that. What does stand out is that ESI administration costs are going up by 31 per cent, and I wonder if the minister could share with us why we’re finding money for more administration. What is the reason that an additional $884,000 is needed if the income assistance program is remaining flat?

[9:30 p.m.]

KARLA MACFARLANE: Thank you for your patience. I want to make sure that I get the correct information to the member.

Before I provide the information on this, I just want to go back to our last discussion. I heard the member say something about a 10- to 20-per cent vacancy rate. I said 6 per cent. That’s the standard, but I had heard something about the member mentioning 10 per cent to 20 per cent. I just want to clarify that it is 6 per cent. It’s all community investing and ensuring that there’s help for everyone.

I hope that the member realizes that we work very hard with our caseworkers. If the member is aware of something that maybe we’re not, I welcome a conversation. Right now, again, the average is 20 cases for a social worker or caseworker. Certainly, they are supported if they feel that they’re not able. Again, we will be nimble and redeploy some of the cases to another caseworker. We’re not aware of any issues, I guess is what I want to say.

With regard to that number of $848,000, there was a creation of five new positions. That’s what that amount stands for. The FTEs have been placed in service delivery - sorry, moved from service delivery to ESIA as well as income assistance. Those would be specialists that were hired for those departments. As well, we hired two others who would deal with the homeless file. That would make up the $848,000 that the member was inquiring about.

KEITH IRVING: My point on the math before is if you were short 6 per cent of the staff and they were to do 20 cases each, the remaining staff would have to do 6 per cent more cases, and that would be 21.2. They’re actually doing 23.7, so what I’m saying is the caseloads are indicating a number greater than 6 per cent. I won’t get into the algebra here, but anyway.

Just for clarification, the four new positions for the $884,000 are appearing under administration, and you seemed to be implying that those staff were not administrative staff, but they are appearing under ESIA Administration. Can you just clarify what those staff are doing and why they are classified as administration?

KARLA MACFARLANE: Again, I’ll try my best to clarify. They are not administration. They are working in ESIA and with income assistance. There were three specialists hired to work in those two departments, and then the other two were hired to work in the homelessness file. That is five, not three, there are five that were hired that primarily make up the $848,000 for five new FTEs. I hope I’ve clarified that.

KEITH IRVING: I think the challenge here obviously is that - and I made this complaint earlier in Estimates - that I’ve always been frustrated at the limited line items within a budget. When I see a line item that says Community Resource Support (Homelessness) with $15 million, I would have thought that that’s where I would find those two positions you just mentioned to be working on homelessness and not in administration. I won’t dwell on that any further.

My next question is with respect to income assistance. We see the numbers here are flat, estimate to estimate. We see the forecast for the 2021-22 year as being about $41 million lower this past year, lower than the estimate. I presume that has something to do with people falling off income assistance to obtain CERB, and now this year we’re anticipating them coming back on to the income assistance roll.

Just clarify that for me and confirm for us here that you’re not anticipating any additional clients for income assistance. Even with the dramatic increase in inflation and the pressures on families, the budget seems to be indicating no additional utilization. That’s government code for no more clients than a year before.

Could you just confirm the reason why last year we were underspending and why this year is completely flat? We know it’s flat with respect to the payments, but are the number of clients anticipated to be flat?

KARLA MACFARLANE: Yes, to the member, there was a $40 million decrease and that absolutely is linked to the fact that many of our clients left income assistance and received CERB. It’s really difficult for us to project out how many individuals or clients would come back and use this service.

It’s an uncapped service so the member needs to know that if an individual calls us and meets the criteria and qualifies, they will receive income assistance. But for us to throw out a number of what that’s going to look like, we have no idea because many of them no doubt will come back but perhaps many won’t, it just depends on individual circumstances. That is why I understand where the question is coming from, and I hope that my answer clarifies for the member.

KEITH IRVING: Thank you, and I do understand the challenges there. To me it would be interesting to look over history to look at the economy and how the economy is affecting the income assistance clients so that you and your staff could in fact take a better guess at next year. I’ve never looked at this issue more closely.

I think what I’m hearing is the history of the department has been constantly just bringing last year’s number forward with no adjustments to the economic conditions and trying to anticipate whether the number should go up or down. Anyway, that’s budgeting.

I had a whole other section of questions and these may have been touched on, but maybe I will just ask a quick numbers question. How many people are on the wait-list for persons with disabilities?

KARLA MACFARLANE: For the member, currently we have 1,700 but 1,200 of the 1,700 are actually in receipt of services right now so . . .

THE CHAIR: Order. That concludes this round of questioning for the Liberal caucus. We will now pass it over to the NDP caucus with 18 minutes remaining.

The honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party.

GARY BURRILL: Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are happy to cede this part of the exchange to the Independent member.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Cumberland North.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: Mr. Chair, I’ll give the minister a few minutes if she wants to finish answering the question from the previous member.

KARLA MACFARLANE: Actually, Mr. Chair, I beg to have a moment to run to the washroom. but I promise I’ll be right back.

[9:45 p.m. The committee recessed.]

[9:46 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

THE CHAIR: The honourable Minister of Community Services.

KARLA MACFARLANE: The member for Kings South was looking for the current wait-list. We were indicating that there are 1,700 on the wait-list; 1,200 are receiving different services right now but are looking for something different. We are working with them to ensure that we can try to provide that.

If we look at it, right now there are about 548 who would be waiting for services of any kind.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Cumberland North.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: It’s great to have an opportunity to ask questions of our Minister of Community Services on behalf of the people of Cumberland North.

My first question to the minister is around the Sunset Community residential facility in Pugwash. Can the minister share what the future plans are for Sunset? The reason I’m asking this question is because I’ve had some anxious employees come to me. They are worried about their future jobs.

They’re worried for the community that they have built for the people living there who call it home. If all of those family members living at Sunset are moved into the community, that staff will be hired at a lower wage rate and their future job stability is at risk. I don’t know if the minister would be able to comment about Sunset.

KARLA MACFARLANE: I thank the member for the question. Sunset has been a great partner. There are lots of great conversations happening and this government is certainly endeavouring to follow through on a commitment to ensure that we create small options homes for individuals and create a living experience that they want, a choice that they want.

That’s what we’re doing - we’re working with all facilities across this whole province. It’s not necessarily that you can just work with one because we look at individual needs. There may be a decision that we’re going to look at closing a certain facility, but it would be over time. I can reassure the member that moving individuals out into community has a very thoughtful approach and mostly, absolutely for our clients but staff as well.

Moving along into creating more small option homes is actually going to create more jobs, not reduce jobs. I hope the member can reassure those individuals who are coming to her with concerns and being worried - that is the last thing we would want them to be experiencing. They don’t need that type of stress. This is going to be a very thoughtful plan. We’ve started it, we’re working hard, but again it endeavours to have all facilities working sort of at the same time because you never know what clients want to move where, what their individual needs are. I hope that helps answer the question.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: Thank you, minister. I thank you for your comments and, absolutely, we don’t want our important staff to be worried about their future jobs. I want to let you know that there is definitely some anxiety and worry there around how many more years they will have employment.

I’m going to share my concern as a member of the community and as a registered nurse about some of the transition that we’ve seen around mental health and moving people out of facility and into the community. I think what we’ve seen in the last decade for sure, if not longer, is that the community supports are not there. We’ve moved people out of institutions into the community with very serious mental illness. Many of them don’t have access to medical care and psychiatrists and they don’t have access to the community supports that are needed.

I just naturally have a concern that the same thing might happen with very special people who live in facilities such as Sunset - it’s their home, they’ve made it their home. It’s not like an institution at all. I’m not sure if the minister’s had a chance to visit them yet - I know she will if she hasn’t already, and she will be very pleased to see it. It’s an incredible facility, incredible staff and they’re like their family.

I know there’s a lot of pressure for this transformation and the minister’s aware and the family has gone public - we had a very sad situation in our community where someone was transitioned into the community, proper measures were not taken, and the person actually almost died of injuries because of it. They were admitted back into the institution and to the facility.

A lot of nurses and a lot of people who work in health care believe that there are some people who actually need that level of care. Some people actually need two people all the time, their level of care is so demanding. I just wanted to express those concerns publicly, that it’s not just me who has those concerns, but many other people who work in health and work in some of our facilities such as Sunset. I’m confident that there are many people in your department that are aware of those concerns and will make sure that everyone’s safety is paramount.

My next question for the minister is around a shelter in Amherst. We have a non-profit society called the Cumberland Homelessness and Housing Support Association. I believe they formed around three and a half years ago, and they’ve been working very diligently to get a shelter or emergency transition centre built in the Town of Amherst. We have a very severe problem with homelessness, and we have incredible people who are working to try and help this situation. But we need a place for people to go in times of emergency, when they need emergency shelter.

I recently met with Sarah MacMaster. She is the Executive Director of Maggie’s Place which is a beautiful family resource centre in Amherst. She just recently helped open a new youth centre. There were many people involved, but she was the leader and the minister’s department was very helpful in helping fund this youth centre. They did share with me the number one issue that they’re seeing in the youth centre is the need for emergency housing for the youth.

I’m wondering if the minister or someone in the department would be willing to work with the Cumberland Homelessness and Housing Support Association to try to get this emergency transition shelter set up, for both youth and anyone else in need in our community?

KARLA MACFARLANE: I thank the member for her comments and concerns with regard to this most important issue. Before going into the shelter question, regarding small option homes, it really bothers me to think that there’s individuals out there who work so hard and have anxiety and stress over whether or not they’ll have a job or not. We want to get this right. I wish it could all happen tomorrow, but we’re working slowly so that the clients and the families can be really involved in these transitions. They have to be involved in these transitions to ensure that we get it right and get it right for their loved ones, and that their loved ones have these choices.

All I can say is that I thank the staff. They work hard. I want to reassure that this transitioning out of congregate settings and facilities into smaller option homes or whatever it may look like - independent living for some clients – this is definitely going to take time and it will be a thoughtful process.

With regard to the shelter, it sounds like the community is really collectively working hard together. I’ve heard about Sarah and the great involvement and work that’s being done. It’s nice to see that the community is addressing this issue and working collaboratively together with the member, as well, to acknowledge and address and see what can be done. The Department of Community Services is always open. Certainly, we’ll have those exploratory conversations to see what exactly the member’s community is looking for. Happy to perhaps have those conversations within the near future, so thank you.

Mr. Chair, can you just let me know how much time I have left? I’ll need a good minute to wrap up.

[10:00 p.m.]

THE CHAIR: There are four minutes to go.

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: It’s reassuring to hear the minister’s comment. Thank you for that. There’re a few things I could ask, but there’s not a lot of time left.

I’m going to ask the minister to comment on the issue of domestic violence and sexual assault. This is a very serious issue. I seem to get a lot of victims coming to me about this. I realize that the Department of Justice Victim Services have a large role. We do have a plan in place to try to create some change in the culture around that.

I’m wondering if the minister would have any comment on work that may be actively being done through the Status of Women Office or Community Services so we could have more supports for both the perpetrator of sexual assault and/or domestic violence and the victims. Right now, many victims are not being taken seriously. They’re not being listened to - charges aren’t being laid. It’s very frustrating, and it needs to change. I’m wondering if the minister would be able to make comment and suggestions on that topic.

KARLA MACFARLANE: Mr. Chair, looking at the time, I would like to let the member know that we would certainly love to have that discussion. I will note that we made an extra $2 million investment in this budget to continue the work of Standing Together.

At this point in time, a big shout-out to all the employees at the Department of Community Services, Status of Women, and L’nu Affairs. I feel so grateful and privileged to be in this chair. I couldn’t do this without that support and knowledge from all the workers that I work with. I’m just overwhelmed by the support.

THE CHAIR: Shall Resolution E4 stand?

Resolution E4 stands.

Resolution E30: Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $4,224,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of Office of L'nu Affairs, pursuant to the Estimate.

THE CHAIR: Shall the resolution carry?

The resolution is carried.

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. KIM MASLAND: Mr. Chair, I move that the committee do now rise and report progress to the House.

THE CHAIR: The motion is carried.

The committee will now rise and report to the House.

[The committee adjourned at 10:03 p.m.]