HALIFAX, MONDAY, APRIL 12, 2021

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY

6:20 P.M.

CHAIR

Brad Johns

THE CHAIR: Order, please. The Committee of the Whole on Supply will come to order.

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. GEOFF MACLELLAN: Mr. Chair, would you please resume the estimates for the Minister of Health and Wellness.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Dartmouth South.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: We yield the remainder of our time this evening to the member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage.

BARBARA ADAMS: I appreciate having this opportunity and I thank the NDP caucus for sharing their time.

My questions are for the Minister of Health and Wellness. Some of them are going to go backwards a little bit to what’s already been discussed. I’m just looking for some clarification, and I have some other things that some of my constituents would like me to ask.

The first is: In preparation for the meeting of the Standing Committee on Health tomorrow on human resources, we were sent quite a number of documents, including one which lists the statistics for how many of every health professional in the province there is of something and comparing it to every other province.

When you look at 2019 on these Canadian statistics that were sent to us by the Deputy Minister of Health and Wellness, the numbers for physicians for family medicine and for specialists do not reconcile with the Nova Scotia Health Authority. I’m just wondering which set of numbers we should be considering more accurate.

HON. ZACH CHURCHILL: The discrepancy there is that the health authority is one of two authorities in the province. There are also the physicians who work under the IWK Health Centre, which does operate under their own authority. Their numbers would not be included in the health authority’s numbers. The number would be the higher number, which would be the overall.

BARBARA ADAMS: I appreciate that. Just given what happened this past weekend in the emergency department in Halifax, where they had to go to some extraordinary lengths, I’m wondering if the minister can tell me what our number of paramedics situation is in the province of Nova Scotia as compared to the rest of the country.

ZACH CHURCHILL: There was a situation there over the weekend at the Halifax Infirmary. I’ve been in touch with Dr. Howlett. They have taken some additional measures to help coordinate responses in the Infirmary while we work towards a longer-term solution to deal with the load and off-load challenges there.

The paramedics per capita, we’re going to confirm - there are 1,200 paramedics. The average per capita is actually pretty high in Nova Scotia compared to other jurisdictions. Staff will correct me if I’m wrong, but I think we’re at 136 to 100,000 whereas the national average is 100 to 100,000. Nova Scotia is above the national average when it comes to paramedics per capita.

BARBARA ADAMS: This is the first time our statistics have matched, so I’m very happy. Can you explain to me why, if we have 36 more paramedics per 100,000, we have such difficulty with off-loading and with shortage of paramedics to arrive when people call 911, if we’re so much higher than the national average?

ZACH CHURCHILL: The average response times - we tend to be within the national standard. We obviously hear about the higher ends of those averages, where people are waiting longer, and that’s, of course, a concern.

Our average wait times do not exceed, by a large stretch, the national standard. If you are just looking at the average times themselves, I think we are pretty close to the 15-minute standard response time. There are different metrics there that we can go over if staff produce those numbers for me. The average wait times are fairly much in line.

We do have some off-loading issues at key sites in Nova Scotia. These issues seem to have been longstanding. There were some improvements made pre-COVID‑19, and then we saw some increased issues during the COVID‑19 period as priorities shifted in the system to COVID‑19 response.

We are looking specifically at the Halifax Infirmary, where we do have the most challenging issues with off-loads. We’ll have some announcements on that in the not-too-distant future of options that we have available for that. The issues have to do with patient flow from hospital to long-term care in some cases, from the emergency department to the hospital, and then from the ambulances into the emergency department. There’s a patient-flow issue there at some of our facilities. That’s really what we have to hammer down on and find short-, medium-, and long-term solutions to.

[6:30 p.m.]

BARBARA ADAMS: Two parts to this: there’s been a huge number of emergency room closures. Of course, that would reduce off-load times, if you just simply shut down the emergency departments.

I want to go back to a Nova Scotia Health By the Numbers recording of the number of hospital beds that were listed in 2016-2017. It says 3,503. Then in the next year, it was 3,142. Somewhere we lost 360 beds. The next year, it was 3,150. Then in 2019-2020, which is the last time we had data, it was 3,113.

I have asked in the past, where did those 400 or so beds go? I have never got an answer. Four hundred beds, when you only have 3,500, is more than 10 per cent of your beds. I’m just wondering, where did those beds go?

ZACH CHURCHILL: Could I get some clarification on which beds the member is talking about and what year she’s mining that data from, please?

BARBARA ADAMS: If you Google Nova Scotia Health Authority By the Numbers for the last four years, 2016-17’s number says 3,503. Then the next four years shows a drop of either 350 to nearly 400 beds - 390 to be exact.

ZACH CHURCHILL: We’ve got an answer for the member. The reason for that reduction in beds would be primarily in community-based hospitals where the demand for acute care beds dropped, and those beds were redeployed for long-term care use as folks waited to get into the system. That is a redeployment of those beds where the demand would have been.

BARBARA ADAMS: If that’s what happened, I’m dismayed. We need those acute care beds for people, and if we’re having trouble off-loading, then we now permanently got rid of 10 per cent of our stock, which I don’t think any rural MLA is going to be very happy about that.

Can you tell me how many seniors are waiting in hotels in Metro for long-term care beds right now?

ZACH CHURCHILL: The change of acute care beds to long-term care would be in line with what the local clinical assessment is for the demand on those beds. That would not have happened at the Halifax Infirmary or the Cape Breton Regional Hospital or in Truro, Valley Regional Hospital, where we’re having off-load issues or where the majority of the emergency department patients would transfer. This would be more on the community hospital side, where they’re dealing with less acuity and have higher demand in long-term care, so that wouldn’t have impacted off-load times, particularly at the trouble areas where we’re having off-load struggles.

There are currently 13 seniors that are in hotels right now waiting for transfer to a long-term care facility, and I do have to speak positively about that setup in the hotels. They are set up properly with the right supports, and the feedback we’ve gotten so far is positive.

BARARA ADAMS: I would agree 100 per cent that the staffing ratios in those hotels is exactly what the unions, the staff, and everybody else has been asking for, which is a much lower staffing-to-resident ratio. I’m glad the minister agrees with that, because that is exactly what the unions have been asking for.

Before I go on to my next question, you mentioned Dr. Howlett, and I’m thinking of somebody like Dr. Orrell, who is the deputy minister. Dr. Howlett, to my knowledge, has three different roles: he manages the Dartmouth General Hospital, he is a consultant for 811, and he is also involved in recruitment of physicians for the Central Zone. How is he categorized in the physicians’ statistics? How is he listed?

ZACH CHURCHILL: Dr. Howlett is currently the Medical Director of the Central Zone and he would be listed as an emergency department physician, according to Doctors Nova Scotia data, the registry.

BARBARA ADAMS: Which is a really good point because he technically has three different jobs, so without knowing exactly how much actual patient care someone does, we really have no idea what the full-time equivalent is.

When I look at the statistics that we were given for tomorrow’s Human Resources Committee, there is a listing there of physicians. It says that in 2018, there were 2,617 physicians. In 2019, there were 2,624. That’s a net gain of seven doctors, yet during sessions of the Legislature we have heard quite a number of times from the Ministers of Health and Wellness and the Premier as to how many we’ve recruited.

I have a hard time reconciling that from 2018 and to 2019 the statistics are showing a net gain of only seven of doctors. Can you confirm that these numbers are accurate?

ZACH CHURCHILL: We are going to confirm those numbers for the member. We’re just pulling those up right now. I can’t confirm the accuracy of those numbers, but we will do that in short order.

What happens is this is a very fluid situation with doctors. Every year, the Nova Scotia Health Authority, the Department of Health and Wellness, and Dalhousie University work to train and recruit more physicians, and of course every year we also deal with retirement, we deal with deaths. We also deal with physicians who choose to move elsewhere to practise, as they’re in high demand in every jurisdiction across the country. We have recruited on average in the last four years 122 to 130 a year, but of course we’re doing that to replace people who are retiring, moving, and who pass away. That can be why in any given year, the number of physicians recruited doesn’t show up as a net gain of 130 physicians, because of all those factors.

Good news right now - and that’s happened recently. We just lost Dr. O’Brien in Cape Breton, who had a very large patient panel, and I want to express my condolences to him. He served that community for, I believe, close to 50 years, 40 years if what I’ve been told is accurate, serving a high patient volume. So, one doctor like that, who’s practising old school and taking on 3,000 to 5,000 patients, we lose a doctor like that, there’s a quick influx of unattached patients.

Also, the College - as we’ve seen recently in Pictou County, it’s been reported on CBC - can make decisions to reduce patient loads for their members, which can happen for various reasons. In positive news, we do have 26 positions, 15 of which are family physicians and 11 of which are specialists who will commence practising here between April and next Fall, at various points. So we are about to see an influx of 26 new physicians into the province, but again, between now and then we don’t know how many physicians we might lose either. It’s a fluid situation, which is why having the competitive framework for recruitment and retention is important. That’s why there has been a focus on compensation and creating other opportunities like hospitalists for doctors to be engaged with.

We are going to keep digging up those numbers, and if we do see a variance or a discrepancy there with the member’s numbers, we’ll review that.

BARBARA ADAMS: Thank you, Madam Chair. Would you mind telling me how much time is left?

THE CHAIR: I will attempt to do that. The clock says there are 17 minutes until the end of the NDP time, which is what you’re using right now, and then after that there is time allotted to you, to the PCs. At 7:17 p.m., I’m going to ask the minister to make his final comments. My understanding is that you may be giving some time back to the NDP caucus. Maybe that’s not true.

BARARA ADAMS: That wasn’t my understanding.

THE CHAIR: Cool. We don’t need to talk about that.

BARBARA ADAMS: [Inaudible] listen to this, not my cellphone, so I apologize. I’ll take a look.

Thank you, minister, it is refreshing to hear an acknowledgement that some people do leave and move away or retire.

Earlier last week during Question Period, you told my colleague from Pictou East that the short stay unit in their area will be returned to the Aberdeen Hospital after a five-year closure. I’m just wondering if you can give us more details on when that might happen.

[6:45 p.m.]

ZACH CHURCHILL: We do have a specific answer for that. Renovations have begun for that facility and there will be the withdrawal management facility that we open at Aberdeen, scheduled to reopen in July.

BARBARA ADAMS: I just want to go back to some comments the minister made about my numbers for home care visits and clients not going down as not being accurate, so I just want to go back and clarify. I’ll reference 2018-19 to 2019-20. The number of home care clients in 2018-19 was 31,688 and then in 2019-20 it was 30,881, which is less, so it has gone down.

Then when you look at the average number of home care visits, you can see that the actual number of visits went from 3,063,000 and change, down to 2,933,000, so that’s fewer clients, fewer visits.

Then when you actually calculate the number of hours that they got, in 2016 it was 107 hours per client per year, in 2017 it was 104, in 2018 it was 97, and in 2019-20 it was 95. So, few clients, fewer visits over the last four years, fewer number of hours.

I just want to clarify that those are my statistics. Now I know that the number of in-home nursing visits - you said at the end that they hadn’t gone down but the number of RN visits in 2018-19 was 1.1 million and change, and then in 2019-20 it was 947,000. Those are all lower numbers. I just to clarify for the minister that I am taking those numbers straight off the NSHA’s By the Numbers.

One of the things you mentioned was that the IWK Health Centre’s numbers are not included in these numbers, so I’m going to suggest to the minister that we actually start seeing those get reported because I think then we would have a fully rounded picture as to what is happening with the total picture for physicians and all the other home care visits.

I’m just going to ask a couple more questions. How many residential care facilities are still left to be vaccinated the first time?

ZACH CHURCHILL: Yes, on the first - before we get to the vaccinations - on the home care front, we did see a decrease from the 2019 to the 2020 year. They dropped by, I think, by about 15 per cent of visits to home care clients. One per cent of that was due to an agency cancellation, due to staffing or other issues, but probably primarily due to staffing. Fourteen per cent of those cancellations actually came from the clients themselves requesting that the agencies did not show up to their homes. The reasons for that, I think, presumably, would be related to COVID-19 and fear of bringing in risk factors to the home. We did see a drop, and it was primarily driven by client-based decisions in cancelling those appointments themselves.

What we have seen, though, is an uptake in the self-managed care funding utilization. We also see more people who are utilizing the increased resources available for self-managed care, for supportive care, and for the caregiver’s benefit. Also, we’ve seen an increase for use of other programming. Essentially, there is more money available for self-directed care, so folks who are cancelling are able to access funding to choose an alternative support that’s available or to fund loved ones, to take care of that.

The point I was making was just that the majority of that drop is driven by clients’ decisions themselves and one per cent of that drop was due to cancellations, most likely due to staffing challenges. In terms of the vaccinations, we are at over 70 per cent for our long-term community care centre sector of folks who are vaccinated.

THE CHAIR: Before I recognize the member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage, I just want to say, minister, when you move your arms around, your sound gets muffled.

The honourable member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage.

BARBARA ADAMS: Just a clarification: the statistics I’m talking about for 2018-19 to 2019-20, that’s all pre-COVID-19. The drop in those numbers, the drop in the visits, and the drop in the hours - that’s all before COVID-19 hit. The numbers that the minister was referencing are during COVID-19, so we’ll have to wait for the next set of numbers. The number of visits was going down, not up, pre-COVID-19.

I’m curious as to who made the decision to not finish vaccinating people in long-term care before you went to start vaccinating the public. I’ll give you an example. My mother got her vaccination. She’s 91 - happy about that. But she’s not in a long-term care facility. Why was she quicker to get vaccinated than somebody who’s more frail and more at risk in a residential care facility? Whose decision was that?

ZACH CHURCHILL: We’re not doing one over the other. We’re prioritizing our long-term care residents along with the age-based approach. Age is the primary driving factor here because we know that’s the single greatest risk. It also allows us to move the quickest because it’s the only real data point that MSI has that can be applied to verify that the individual is who they say they are, and they are the age they are. What you’re seeing is the long-term care facilities being decanted at about the same rate as the age-based processes. Those things are happening in tandem, as that is our priority – age-based. Of course, that impacts long-term care.

BARBARA ADAMS: Unfortunately, I know quite a large number of people who are in their 60s who have all got vaccinated before people in residential care. When you say that it’s age-based, it isn’t, because there are an awful lot of people in residential care who are in their 80s and 90s who got skipped over. I’m happy that it’s at 70 per cent. Frankly, I think that that was Phase 1, and I don’t know why the public got brought into that beforehand. Certainly those who have been waiting to visit people in long-term care are very happy that that’s happening.

I’m wondering if the minister can tell me - you mentioned that you had done a survey of people saying that they’re on the wait-list for a family doctor because they had moved to the area or they had moved from where they were to a new area. I’m just wondering if you could tell me how many people you surveyed and if you can table that survey for us so that we can have a look at it.

ZACH CHURCHILL: Just to clarify one thing. There are individuals in the age cohort, in the 55-64 age cohort that are being vaccinated but that’s because of the anomaly of AstraZeneca. We’re not using that vaccine for folks who are above the age of 65 in Nova Scotia. The new guidelines that are out are not allowing us to use it for people who are below the age of 55. We are getting that vaccine. The Leader of the Opposition said he wanted us to use this vaccine, as well, several times in the House, but that vaccine is only available for that age cohort. We’re utilizing the supply that we have to get to as many people as possible. All of our vaccines - Moderna and Pfizer are the ones we have now - are being utilized to vaccinate primarily on an age-based rollout, of course with the frontline health care workers and first responders being included in Phase 1.

The data for that survey is part of the registry. People who register to be on the unattached patient list, they conduct a survey to get on there. I think that’s how it works. All individuals on that registry would be filling out that survey, and 30 per cent of them indicated that they were new to their community. That would mean you’re coming from out of province or moving within Nova Scotia.

[7:00 p.m.]

BARBARA ADAMS: I would appreciate getting something with those numbers in writing, including the number of people who were surveyed. Are we talking the last 500 who were put on the list, or are we talking every single person?

The last question I have time for and would like to ask the minister: How many Nova Scotians are attached to a clinical nurse practitioner versus a physician, when you count up the number of primary care providers in the province of Nova Scotia? How many clinical nurse practitioners are in the role of a primary care provider and how many Nova Scotians do they have on their care list?

ZACH CHURCHILL: We are going to see if we can find that information, the specific information on that for the member.

To answer her first question: everybody on the registry conducts that survey. It would be 30 per cent of the 60‑ish thousand who are on that registry, who would have filled that out. It is part of the process to get on the registry, and we will just see if we can get that information quickly. If we don’t get it in the next minute, we will ensure to provide that to the member and the House.

THE CHAIR: Order, for a moment. To the member for Cole Harbour‑Eastern Passage, the time for the New Democratic Party that you have been using has elapsed.

It is now time for the Progressive Conservative caucus and my understanding is that you are going to recognize the member for Dartmouth South.

BARBARA ADAMS: I have one question I need to ask and then I will do that.

THE CHAIR: Go ahead.

BARBARA ADAMS: Thank you. I would like to ask the minister: I am wondering if you can tell me what the net cost to the government is for a hospital bed? We know how much someone pays, maximum per day, for a long‑term care bed, but I am wondering if you know what the actual net cost is for someone to be in a long‑term care bed?

ZACH CHURCHILL: The number for a long‑term care bed would vary, depending upon which facility they are in. We do have a number on attachment to nurses as primary care providers and we’ve been able to attach over 42,000 people utilizing that program to a primary care provider.

BARBARA ADAMS: I would like to pass to the honourable member for Dartmouth South for the remainder of the time.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Dartmouth South.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I thank the minister for a few minutes to ask a few additional questions that our caucus has. The first has to do with post‑natal care.

Our understanding is that public health resources have been understandably reallocated during the pandemic. I know that early on almost everybody was redeployed, but prior to COVID-19, public health was responsible for post‑natal visits, supports to parents, as well as some vaccinations.

My understanding from conversations with organizations serving newborns and in charge of maternal health is that those visits have stopped entirely. In fact, the phone calls have even stopped entirely.

I would like to ask the minister: Can the minister comment on that or confirm that is the case?

ZACH CHURCHILL: We do have an average - I know this was for the member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage - on long-term care bed costs. Per day, it’s between $260 and $270. That would be the average. That does vary from facility to facility.

There has been, in relation to post-natal care, a line item in the budget that is transferred to Nova Scotia Health Authority through the Department of Health and Wellness. That budget is still there, but I do know that some of those resources have been deployed.

The way it is being prioritized right now is those critical cases - high risk babies - support is still being offered to those families, but also there has been a significant redeployment of those resources as we continue to deal with COVID-19. The high-risk situations are still receiving the support.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: With respect, though, my own experience as someone who struggled after giving birth the first time, and as with many women, is that sometimes that risk factor is identified via Public Health calls and visits. Postpartum issues and depression certainly often have an onset, obviously, postpartum. That’s one of the invaluable services that Public Health has filled in our province for a long time.

If the minister could give me a timeline for when at least the phone calls to new parents would be made, I would appreciate that.

ZACH CHURCHILL: It’s difficult to say at this point because of the nature of which resources are redeployed right now for COVID-19 response. It does depend on epidemiology and where we get with this thing over the next little bit.

Our expectation is that those services will be deployed back into the perinatal program and the budgets will remain there to provide those services. While I can’t give the member a specific timeline on that, just because there are still a lot of unknowns in terms of what the next number of months and year is going to look like for COVID-19, I can say that the priority is still there to have those services deployed back to where they were being utilized before and the budgets will remain intact.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I’m hopeful that some accommodation for new mothers is made soon.

I wanted to ask, on a different topic, about the difference in the drug formulary between the hospitals and MSI and in particular, the IWK. We know that there are drugs that are administered in a hospital setting that are not available to patients outside of a hospital setting who don’t have private insurance. Sometimes families won’t have private insurance. Sometimes there are compassionate programs from pharmaceutical companies. Some medical infusions are required in a hospital - I can’t pronounce any of the names, but certainly the minister’s staff would know the medications to which I’m referring.

When people are released from hospital and still need access to these drugs, this creates a significant administrative burden on hospital staff who work with families to find coverage. Obviously, it’s distressing for families when they can’t afford it. Given that the Canada Health Act is intended to cover drugs administered in all hospital settings, can the minister explain under which scenarios and why certain drugs would be covered in a hospital and not elsewhere or vice versa?

[7:15 p.m.]

ZACH CHURCHILL: There are a few points to make on this issue. One: there are some drugs that can only be administered in hospital because of the risks and supervision that’s necessary. However, we do have a budget line of about $44 million for the exceptions. That would be the drug therapies that can be utilized at home in outpatient care. There was $44 million assigned to that, and those would be oral cancer drugs, specialty drugs for CF patients or MS patients, organ transplant patients.

There is a specific set of - these changes were made in 2017 to allow this to happen under a previous minister, who did a fantastic job while he was here, I might add. There are drug therapies that there is coverage for that can be applied in an outpatient setting. Some of those can be covered through Seniors Pharmacare or Family Pharmacare programs. Some of them are covered otherwise through this $44 million. Also, pharmaceutical companies do have a compassionate programming that sometimes people have benefited from in this province for coverage for catastrophic drug needs.

THE CHAIR: Order, please. The time allotted for the Health and Wellness Estimates has expired. Now I’m going to ask the Minister of Health and Wellness to please make his closing remarks and read the resolution. I will also note that we will be voting on the resolution, so if you have your voting cards ready, that would be great.

ZACH CHURCHILL: Just very quickly, I appreciate the respectful questioning and tone of Estimates. This is one of the best opportunities that we have to get to the bottom of a lot of questions people have. It gives us much more time than in Question Period, and I’ve always appreciated the approach to having very reasonable conversations about these things.

I do want to thank the staff for their incredible work. A lot of resources go into ensuring we can produce responses in a timely manner for the members opposite, and I do want to give a shout-out and express my very sincere thanks to our department staff for their great work throughout the 21-plus hours of Estimates that we’ve done. As members have done over this period, we’ve pointed out some challenges that we do have in the health care system. They’re there, they are many, but I do think we’ve made great progress in a number of key files that are improving the state of health care in the province and the services that we deliver to Nova Scotians that in a lot of instances are life-saving.

THE CHAIR: Shall the Resolution E10 stand?

The resolution stands.

Thank you very much, Minister Churchill.

We will take a 15-minute break and we will be back with the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board. Thank you, everyone.

[7:20 p.m. The committee recessed.]

[7:35 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

THE CHAIR: The Committee of the Whole on Supply will come to order.

The honourable Deputy Government House Leader.

HON. KEITH IRVING: Would you please call the Estimates for the Department of Finance and Treasury Board.

Resolution E7 - Resolved that a sum not exceeding $25,031,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Finance and Treasury Board, pursuant to the Estimate.

THE CHAIR: I will now invite the minister to make some opening comments, if he wishes, and to introduce his staff to the members of the committee.

HON. LABI KOUSOULIS: Thank you for the opportunity to speak about the 2021-22 budgets of the Departments of Inclusive Economic Growth, and Finance and Treasury Board, and Trade, and the work of all the departments and the agencies.

Madam Chair, I am pleased to be here today and to answer your questions. To begin, I would like to introduce a few people who are with me today. Joining me from Inclusive Economic Growth are: Louise Comeau, Director of Financial Advisory Services at Finance and Treasury Board, supporting the Department of Inclusive Economic Growth; Deputy Minister Scott Farmer; Associate Deputy Minister Jennifer Church; staff from Inclusive Economic Growth; and senior staff from the department’s Crown corporations are standing by.

Joining me from Finance and Treasury Board are: Wanda Fletcher, Executive Director of Financial Advisory Services; Geoff Gatien, Associate Deputy Minister of Finance and Treasury Board; Lilani Kumaranayake, Executive Director of Fiscal Policy, Economics and Budgetary Planning; and Deputy Minister Kelliann Dean, who is also supporting me on the Trade file. We also have senior staff from the NSLC and Nova Scotia Gaming Corporation available.

As agreed, I will take questions about Inclusive Economic Growth first and then move on to Finance and Treasury Board.

I would like to start by outlining the work of my departments, beginning with Inclusive Economic Growth. Inclusive Economic Growth creates opportunity for everyone. It’s the main goal of our government and the main focus of my department. Working with our Crown corporations, NSBI and Innovacorp, Tourism Nova Scotia, Events East, Develop Nova Scotia, and Invest Nova Scotia, we are focused on creating the conditions for businesses to thrive and creating an economy in which all Nova Scotians can participate, contribute, and benefit.

The department leverages relationships with government departments, post-secondary institutions, stakeholders, partners like ONSIDE, and businesses, to build vibrant, innovation-driven ecosystems. We will help to grow the province’s population by developing policy to support attraction of long-stay visitors and remote workers, and through business attraction and building our economy. We will continue to focus on Nova Scotia’s natural advantages. We know that building on competitive advantages and adapting to change is the basis of all economic growth.

We have created 10 regional economic profiles to put critical information in the hands of municipalities, entrepreneurs, our universities, and NSCC, as well as others, to identify and build on regional strengths and to create innovative opportunities across the province. These are the most comprehensive regional profiles ever produced in Nova Scotia.

We will continue to work collaboratively with our Crown corporations to achieve our inclusive economic growth objectives. Develop Nova Scotia’s mandate is to build places with community that attract people, enable business activity across our province, develop works with communities to build infrastructure, create inviting inviting spaces, and deliver engaging programming. Develop Nova Scotia is also leading the Internet for Nova Scotia Initiative and has announced projects to deliver access to more than 99 per cent of Nova Scotia homes. Projects are underway across the province and some areas now have access to connections. We fully expect that these projects will be completed in stages, and many will be done prior to the end of 2023. Work continues to reach as close to 100 per cent as possible.

The province committed $193 million to the Nova Scotia Internet Funding Trust in 2017. So far, $163 million has been invested from the Trust, and it has leveraged an additional $137 million in private and public funding.

The tourism sector has been severely impacted by the global pandemic and the necessary public health restrictions that have restricted the spread of the virus. As Nova Scotia’s tourism marketing and sector development organization, Tourism Nova Scotia will focus on rebuilding and reimagining the tourism sector through programs, partnerships, and marketing. I would like to thank the Tourism Industry Association of Nova Scotia, operators, and all tourism-focused organizations for their ongoing commitment to Nova Scotia’s tourism industry, and recognize the adaptability and flexibility they have shown over the past 12 months.

Nova Scotia Business Inc. is the province’s economic development agency focused on export development and capacity building, as well as investment attraction with a strategic and export lens. Nova Scotia Business Inc. has worked to ingrain a thick export-first attitude within Nova Scotia’s business community and key sectors. With offices throughout the province, NSBI is prioritizing sustainability and inclusion, and will promote carbon reduction, productivity, employment growth, and increased exports.

Innovacorp is Nova Scotia’s early-stage venture capital organization. Working with start-ups throughout the province, it finds, funds, and fosters innovative Nova Scotia start-ups that strive to change the world. We are investing in places and programs where good ideas can become successful businesses, and we will have a special focus on the ocean economy and on climate change and sustainability.

Events East Group manages the Scotiabank Centre, Ticket Atlantic, and the Halifax Convention Centre, and is focused on events that drive economic and community vibrancy for our province. Events East and Discover Halifax, in partnership with the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage, recently led the development of an events industry recovery framework in consultation with industry, with a focus on key actions over the next 12 months to support sustained return of live events safely.

Invest Nova Scotia was created in 2014 as an independent decision-making board for granting economic incentives. The Invest Nova Scotia fund is governed by a board of directors composed of business and community leaders. Invest Nova Scotia funds community projects that are building innovative opportunities through collaborative partnerships across sectors and regions.

As the minister responsible for Trade, it is also my pleasure to represent the province on trade-related matters through the Office of Intergovernmental Affairs. Trade impacts every Nova Scotian. It is an engine that drives, strengthens, and diversifies our economy. It creates new opportunities for our province’s businesses, attracts investment into our province, and supports and creates economic prosperity and jobs.

There is no doubt that the pandemic impacted global and interprovincial territorial trade. However, Nova Scotia has spent years building on strong relationships, nationally and internationally, which have helped us to stay strong, resilient, and competitive over the past year. We may have had the ability to work virtually in the past year with our trade partners and stakeholders, but our work did not stop, and our commitment and focus remain resolute.

In 2019, our international goods exports increased to a new high of $6 million. The United States remains the primary international destination for our goods, valued at $3.4 billion in 2020. China is our second-largest international trading partner, with pre‑pandemic exports reaching $1 billion in 2019. The European Union and United Kingdom are also key trade international partners for Nova Scotia and exports from Nova Scotia to Europe grew to $450 million in 2019. Our current exports to the UK are about $80 million.

The federal government negotiates many of the international trade agreements that ensure our province preserves market access while opening new opportunities for Nova Scotia businesses. These include the new Canada‑United States‑Mexico Agreement, the Canada‑European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, and the Canada-United Kingdom Trade Continuity Agreement. We work hard to leverage these agreements by focusing on building relationships and advancing our engagement strategies in key markets.

In addition to overseas markets, over half of our trade happens in our own country. The Canadian Free Trade Agreement is an important advancement to internal trade that better promotes trade investment in labour mobility across provincial and territorial barriers. We will continue to work hard to establish our province as a global leader and important trading partner in a number of key sectors such as fisheries, agriculture, and ocean technology.

At the Department of Finance and Treasury Board, work is ongoing to preserve government’s financial capacity to provide public programs and services valued by Nova Scotians. We do this by preparing a four‑year fiscal plan which is presented annually through the Budget. Progress reports include forecast updates that are current throughout the year, and actual year-end results are provided annually through the Committee on Public Accounts to ensure that we are being accountable to Nova Scotians. Recently, I tabled Budget 2021‑22 - A Fair and Prosperous Future: Path to Balance. This budget is government’s first step in a new direction. We are balancing much-needed supports for Nova Scotians, investments to help businesses grow, and the commitment to sound financial management. Nova Scotia entered the pandemic in a strong fiscal and economic position. We had previously tabled four balanced budgets and we are on track for a fifth.

When COVID-19 arrived, it had a significant impact on businesses and on Nova Scotians. Our government worked with our federal counterparts to provide supports needed by Nova Scotians. Now containing the pandemic and getting people vaccinated are keys to economic recovery and a thriving economy where businesses can grow.

Our government is focused on getting back to balance. We have a plan that takes us to balance over the next few years. Budget 2021‑22 estimates a deficit of $584.9 million, with revenues of $11.8 billion and expenses of $12.4 billion.

Highlights include: $1 billion in capital funding for infrastructure and innovation; more than $1 billion for continuing care through improvements to long‑term care and home care; $336.5 million for mental health services; $26 million for the Green Fund to take action on the environment and climate change; $100 per month for each adult who receives income assistance ‑ a $35.2 million investment; $24.2 million to protect Nova Scotians from COVID-19, rolling out the vaccines that will get us back to our pre‑pandemic lifestyle.

In addition to the preparing and reporting of the Budget, staff at the Department of Finance and Treasury Board work year‑round to make sure the province’s finances are managed responsibly. The department is also responsible for: providing day‑to‑day financial leadership to government; aligning government policy with a financial and fiscal agenda; providing financial accounting services to government; regulating the operations of more than 40 credit unions, trusts, and loan companies; regulating pensions in the province; regulating insurance in the province; providing economic policy advice and statistical services to help inform decision‑making across government; managing debt, debt payment, investment, and other treasury functions for government; providing transparent accounting of the government’s revenues and expenses; and overseeing several Crown corporations such as the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation and Nova Scotia Gaming Corporation, who are supporting me today.

Together we can work with Nova Scotians to build a stronger economy and create opportunity for everyone. It’s the responsibility of all of us - government, businesses, Crown, private sector, and all Nova Scotians - to work together. I’m very optimistic about our future. Together we have laid a strong foundation, and the best is yet to come.

With that, I would be happy to take your questions.

THE CHAIR: We will begin with the PC caucus for one hour.

The honourable member for Northside-Westmount.

MURRAY RYAN: I thank the minister for his opening remarks. Before we begin, I would like to take a moment to thank all the staff at the Department of Finance and Treasury Board and all the departments and Crown corporations that are under the minister for all their hard work and late hours, I’m sure, in pulling together the budget information for this year’s budget for 2021-22.

Last week, the government announced this new Economic Growth Council. To that end, I’m curious as to what role this council will have with regard to the Department of Inclusive Economic Growth and its various operations. I would like to hear the minister’s thoughts on this new council.

LABI KOUSOULIS: The new board is an advisory board. It is made up of leaders from the business community and from the non-profit community. It will be providing information to government to help us move the province forward in a very strong financial capacity, which will allow opportunities for all Nova Scotians to start a business, to grow their business, and to be part of an economic growth, and to get our province back on track to where we were pre-COVID‑19, when we were one of the strongest economies in Canada.

MURRAY RYAN: This year, we’re seeing this in many departments. There has been reorganization. There have been different activities moved from department A to department B, from portfolio A to portfolio B. In this instance, I just want to explore a couple of these changes as they pertain to the minister. The first is the Regional Enterprise Networks. They have been transferred to his department from the Department of Municipal Affairs. I was wondering if the minister could provide some information related to what the budget is for the RENs in the coming year and also what it’s forecast to be for the year ending March 31, 2021.

THE CHAIR: Before I recognize the minister, I’ll just let him know that the way we have been running things so far in this committee is that I will recognize the minister as soon as the question is asked, and then the minister can take as long as he needs with his staff to get his answer together, and then when he’s ready, he can come off mute.

The honourable Minister of Finance and Treasury Board.

LABI KOUSOULIS: The RENs moving into the Department of Inclusive Economic Growth is just aligning. A big part of their job function is to increase economic activity and that is within government more closely aligned with Inclusive Economic Growth as opposed to Municipal Affairs. The amount forecast in the budget is the same year over year, $1.89 million.

MURRAY RYAN: Related to Nova Scotia Business Inc., this year the Nova Scotia Film & Television Production Incentive Fund was transferred out to the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage from Nova Scotia Business Inc. To that end, I’m wondering: Why was the Film & Television Production Incentive Fund transferred out of the Department of Inclusive Economic Growth and how much was spent on it last year? I know the numbers haven’t been finalized until year end and the Auditor General reviews it, but what was the forecasted spend on the film fund through the end of March 31st?

LABI KOUSOULIS: The forecasted spending on that budget currently sits at $25 million, and that’s how much is allocated in the budget this year as well. That budget amount now is under the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage. The reason for moving it towards the Department of Communities, Culture and Heritage is it’s a better alignment. If you look at film incentive funds across the country, none of them is housed in departments of business. Most of them recognize the cultural advantages that we get from our film industry, and if you look across the country, especially the larger jurisdictions like British Columbia, those funds are all administered under their CCH-type of departments.

MURRAY RYAN: I’m switching over to tourism now. I was pleased to see in your list of strategic objectives that tourism sector recovery is bullet number one for your 2021-2022 plan. Obviously, that recognizes the importance tourism plays in our province and how it’s literally been under siege in the past 12 months. I’m wondering if the minister could provide some information around how the department has been measuring the impact that the pandemic has had on tourism in the past year.

LABI KOUSOULIS: It’s one industry that’s been hardest hit during the pandemic. It’s one that concerns me, along with our restaurant and hospitality industry, the most within the department. That’s why you would have seen recently some funding in terms of tax credits that were provided to those industries, where they could apply and receive an up to 50 per cent rebate of their most current tax bill.

Within the tourism industry, we know roughly that the industry pre-COVID was over $2 billion, and during COVID-19 last year it’s gone down to slightly less than $1 billion. We are anticipating a slight rebound this year and the coming years to get back on track to well over the $2 billion we were at pre-COVID-19.

It is an industry that probably today, as we sit, is approximately 50 per cent lower in terms of complete GDP, and that’s mainly due to tourists not coming from the United States, from across Canada, from Europe, and we know that when tourists come from other jurisdictions, the amount of dollars they spend is much larger than our current tourists, who are more in-province.

We have seen lots of positive signs within the industry. We’ve had many of our tourism operators who have continued to be enjoying full bookings throughout the summer season throughout Nova Scotia, and I hope to see that extended to all our operators.

MURRAY RYAN: I’m wondering if the minister could provide some detail and some information around our small tourism operators that had to shut down over the past year, because there are many that, unfortunately they weren’t able to make it through the loss of the tourism season.

[8:00 p.m.]

LABI KOUSOULIS: We have global numbers in terms of our bankruptcies over the last year and, actually, during COVID-19, we had a reduction in bankruptcies throughout our economy. A large part of that was due to the supports that were provided from all levels of government for our tourism operators, for accommodations. We had two tax credits. We also had, for ones that were suffering quite a bit, through the federal program, a 75 per cent payroll rebate as well.

What we’ve seen as we looked at our bankruptcies in Nova Scotia over the last year is that we actually had a large reduction of bankruptcies, and we had an increase in income amongst Nova Scotians, which a large part was that federal support as well. In my conversations with my federal counterparts, I have stressed that in the future, as we move away from the 75 per cent support, what we will need to do is make sure that we’re not just cutting it off completely, that it will be done over a period of time, and I believe that’s the position of all the provinces and the federal government across the country.

I do have some information on room nights sold during the pandemic versus before. We did have a decline of approximately 50 per cent of accommodations, a reduction in the amount of room nights they had sold. The largest was experienced in Halifax, with a 58 per cent reduction.

MURRAY RYAN: Last year, the minister’s predecessor under the Department of Business announced a $50 million tourism sector financing assistance program. This was well-documented in the news and by government, but I’m curious: Why weren’t the smaller operators eligible for this program, and what was the thinking behind that?

LABI KOUSOULIS: The $50 million credit that was put together was geared towards very large operators that have a significant asset base, and it was geared towards operators that would not be able to unlock enough capital through our government guarantee program, which is at the credit union. Any tourism operator, any small business in the province can access the credit union government guarantee, which was up to $500,000. What that $50 million fund is, it recognized some of the larger operators, it recognized the struggles they were having in terms of being able to capitalize. Within the next week, their loan guarantees will be finalized and we will be releasing the names of the organizations. It will be very apparent that if their asset base had left the province, it would cost us a multiple to get it back, if we did get it back at all.

As well, it would have a long-term negative impact on our tourism sector. It was a loan guarantee, it wasn’t a grant. It was a loan guarantee, where we provided that security so that the banks would actually capitalize these businesses, which we know were only impacted because of COVID-19. We know that they have a strong, long-term fiscal path ahead of them and profitability as well. We were working towards getting them through COVID-19 because losing any type of asset base, especially the larger ones, would be detrimental to our tourism sector.

MURRAY RYAN: One thing you just mentioned there related to these big tourism operators. Their assets are fixed assets. They’re cement and concrete, they’re tied to the ground. It’s not like they’re going to pick them up and relocate them. That being said, I did appreciate and was pleased when I saw that this funding was tied to their assets and is in the form of loans. That’s definitely a benefit to all Nova Scotians, for that money to be returned.

The former Premier opposed travel rebates. These travel rebates really would have incentivized Nova Scotians to travel more, to spend money last year. I’m curious if the minister and the department for tourism is looking at revisiting that decision for this upcoming tourism year to help and provide that additional assistance and incentive to Nova Scotians to get out around the province.

LABI KOUSOULIS: Just a slight clarification on the loan guarantee. The $50 million money did not go out the door for the loan guarantees. Although we guarantee the loans to their banks and financial institutions, the funds will be provided by them. What we are there for is if there is a default, then government would have to pay out the loan. At that point, government would take ownership of those assets.

In terms of the program, I know New Brunswick had a similar program. We did look at it last year and what we found was that most of the individuals in New Brunswick who were using the program were already vacationing within New Brunswick. What we felt is we wanted to make sure we got money directly into our tourism operators and make sure that it was level.

That program there - we had many tourism operators last year that had 100 per cent of their room nights filled. For example, White Point Beach Lodge was full for the entire summer. A program like that would have put a coupon in someone’s hand. They would have gone to White Point, and White Point is a tourist destination that already had all their nights full, and that would have meant that government was subsidizing them, but it would not have helped our hard-hit tourism sector.

For example, Cape Breton had the second-highest amount of slowdown or reduction in room nights sold after Halifax. By using that method, it would not have done anything to level the playing field for the Cape Breton region, which was very hard-hit, because if the tourists weren’t going there during the pandemic, then those dollars weren’t flowing there.

We felt that having a program like we did with the tax rebate - where we treated everybody equally, looked at what your reduction of revenues was, and at that point rebated half your tax bill - was a way to actually get money into the pockets of those who were struggling the most. I personally feel that that program there put money into the businesses that actually aren’t struggling because they are already attracting the local tourists. I prefer being able to try and get as many businesses through the pandemic as possible.

MURRAY RYAN: Yes, just on the minister’s note about the $50 million program, that was my interpretation of it. It is basically money to backstop which is sitting in trust, if you will.

In relation to this real property tax rebate Part 2, which is budgeted at about $7.3 million in the upcoming fiscal year, I was wondering if the minister could first confirm that that’s actually budgeted in the 2122 year. It wasn’t booked back at the end of the fiscal year 2021. Secondly, related to Part 1 of this program, which was announced last Fall, which was $4.5 million, I am curious: What was the uptake on that $4.5 million? At the end of March, was it only $4 million or was it $3.5 million?

LABI KOUSOULIS: Although the original amount budgeted was $4.5 million, the uptake was approximately $6.8 million and that’s what went out on Part 1. For Part 2, that was announced and money was flown out the door back in March, so that is not in this budget. That is part of last year’s expense for 2019-2020.

That is Part 1 and Part 2. We’re in last year’s budget, not in the budget that is tabled in the House currently.

MURRAY RYAN: Just in the looking at the overall top line budget numbers for tourism spent in fiscal 2020-2021 and fiscal 2019-2020, the department had a budget of $23 million. Per the estimate from last year’s budget process, it was $22.2 million. The actual - or the forecasted - amount spent through March 31^st this year is $25.4 million, and then in the current budget year that we’re covering off now, the estimate for the budget for tourism for the year 2021-2022 will be $20.6 million.

I’m wondering if the minister could provide some information surrounding why the funding and the budget for tourism is decreasing.

LABI KOUSOULIS: As the member would be aware, we last year sold Liscombe Lodge, and Liscombe Lodge was operating at a loss. Part of the tourism budget there was topping up that loss. We no longer will have to pay for that loss moving forward.

As well, last year we had a Tourism Revitalization of Icons Program which is now complete, and that funding no longer is required for that. There was no reduction in any part of the tourism budget from last year to this year.

MURRAY RYAN: Zipping along, I wanted to switch over to venture capital and Innovacorp.

I’m a strong believer in venture capital. It’s such an important vehicle to help small and medium-sized businesses move forward and expand their operations and seize opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to. Larger centres often have their choices of venture capital funds that businesses can approach for investment. Here in Nova Scotia, however, this investment is much more challenging for small businesses especially to secure.

To that end, entities such as Innovacorp and Sandpiper Ventures play such a critical role in our local investment community in helping these young and small-to-medium-sized businesses develop.

First of all, I’m wondering if the minister could provide some information around what the relationship will be between Innovacorp and Sandpiper Ventures. I would think that there would be a lot of synergies and a lot of things that they could leverage between each other.

[8:15 p.m.]

LABI KOUSOULIS: I completely agree. Our Innovacorp and our investment in venture capital is paramount to young, new start-ups being able to access capital, being able to leverage that capital, bring new capital in from outside the jurisdiction. We’ve seen many great success stories.

We also know in the venture capital industry that, generally, the rule of thumb is you have eight companies that are probably not going to make it, and we lose the investment entirely. One company is going to be a break-even, but the next company is going to be a Google or an Amazon and is going to take off. We’ve seen many exits here in Nova Scotia. Now we’re approaching exits close to the $100 million mark. That’s even from a very small investment done on behalf of the Province.

In terms of the relationship we’ll have with Sandpiper, which would be the same that we’d have with our other venture capital firms, Innovacorp will make an investment there, and we’ll treat that as every other investment. They will work with them in terms of ensuring that the capital is rolling out to start-ups, ensure that we’re tracking how those start‑ups are doing, to be able to provide any assistance, if asked, to form a strong partnership, bring their expertise to the table, and be there working together.

At that point, what we hope to see is that those start‑ups will take off and we will have a return into the fund as well. As we have returns into the funds, that gives us the ability to make future and more venture capital investments and to keep this rolling.

As we all know, this is one of the most important industries in our province. It is why I think that a lot of our youth have been staying in Nova Scotia - because of all the excitement not only from within our venture capital community, but all the excitement from our start‑ups from COVE over to Volta Labs to the Verschuren Centre in Cape Breton and all the way down to Yarmouth.

All across the province, the sandboxes ‑ it is just creating opportunities for our youth and it is creating new companies that are solving today’s problems right now.

MURRAY RYAN: When I look at this year’s budget for Innovacorp, it’s just over $9 million - $9 million and change. This compares to last year’s budget estimate of $9.7 million, and then there was a forecasted actual for this year or projected actual of $14.1 million.

I have two questions I would like to ask the minister. First, why and what accounts for the $700,000 decrease in the year-over-year comparison of budget to budget? Also, what accounted for the additional $4.4 million in budget items cash that went to Innovacorp last year?

LABI KOUSOULIS: Great to clarify this. The decrease by $700,000 was just an accounting change where we pulled out non‑cash transactions out of their financials. There have been no cuts. On the $9 million we are speaking about, it is full operating capital for Innovacorp. There are no cuts or changes to that. They have the full funding they need to operate this year as they did last year.

Where we see the approximately $5 million increase this year, that is for the investment that will be happening with Sandpiper.

MURRAY RYAN: Okay, I got you. So Sandpiper is that difference for the forecast at year end. Very good. Just moving along here, you have to love us accountants. Our questions are usually fairly brief and our answers are usually just as brief.

One question I have for the minister is related to rural economic development. I would like to ask the minister: What efforts are the minister’s department making in relation to inclusive in economic growth to promote economic development outside of the HRM?

LABI KOUSOULIS: If you actually take a look at our Crown corporations and take a look at the department as well, we have staff deployed across the province. One of the first conversations I had with NSBI was around taking a look at ensuring that as they were marketing Nova Scotia, we were having a focus on rural Nova Scotia as we’re trying to attract companies here to the province. That is one that in my budget speech I spoke about, that Nova Scotia Business Inc. would have a stronger lens than before for rural Nova Scotia.

Every program we have within the department and within government, our tax rebates, are available to organizations that are across the province, so any rural business can apply for the tax rebates or any of our programs. If they’re hiring a graduate, they can get our retention rebates that are under the Department of Labour and Advanced Education.

As well, if you take a look at Develop Nova Scotia, in my introduction I spoke about the almost $200 million invested in the internet rollout, and to me that investment is all in rural Nova Scotia. It’s key because without high-speed internet, we know that a company can’t start or can’t operate in that area.

When I see the investment that Develop Nova Scotia is doing on behalf of Nova Scotians, which is 100 per cent rural, because that’s where the high-speed internet is required, I see that as being a game-changer for businesses to be able to start and to thrive across our province, because without high-speed internet, you can’t host a website, you can’t have access to it, and it’s very difficult to just do what most of us with high-speed take for granted day to day.

MURRAY RYAN: That’s a perfect segue into my next line of questioning, which is surrounding Develop Nova Scotia and high-speed internet.

The government has made many announcements over the past year to accelerate the high-speed internet program across the province. Access to high-speed internet is essential for our province to really meet its development potential and be able to stimulate our local economies. Develop Nova Scotia has established these minimal upload and download speeds for this initiative, and in some circles the current bar of what’s considered the goal for high speed, they feel it’s kind of low.

What does the minister have to say and what thoughts does he have related to those Nova Scotians who think that these upload and download speeds are insufficient?

LABI KOUSOULIS: The guidelines that were set for the rollout was what CRTC actually says is the standard for broadband internet, which is 50 megabytes download speed, 10 megabytes upload, and in order for these projects to move forward and in order for them to be funded, that is the minimum that has to be delivered.

What we’ve seen as we’ve been testing after the fact is that we’ve been exceeding those minimums by quite a bit, and that is a type of download and upload speed that should suffice for most businesses. It should suffice for most households as well to be streaming multiple devices.

MURRAY RYAN: A business in my riding approached me back in January, and they had some serious concerns related to where we were going with COVID-19 over the Winter. They were very concerned that they might have to close down their office and stop doing intakes of students. They do training on-site. As a result of closing down their on-site training, they would have to switch over to virtual, Zoom-based training.

The challenge that they are having is that the highest internet service that they could get was DSL service, which permitted one instructor to conduct a Zoom classroom session, but any more than that one and their entire internet service started to lag and bog down. We made some inquiries and did some investigating, and because this catchment area had what was considered by Develop Nova Scotia to be high-speed internet, that area is not identified as being an area that is going to be upgraded under the Develop Nova Scotia program.

While I can appreciate that if you have a region or an area within a community that has slow high-speed internet access and an area that has no internet access, you’re going to focus a lot of your resources towards those areas that have absolutely no access, some of these areas are on the periphery of urban areas, of developed industrially growing areas. I’m just curious how Develop Nova Scotia and the minister reconcile those two, because in some ways it’s lacking.

LABI KOUSOULIS: Yes, that’s a prime example of why it’s so important for us to get this internet rollout happening, to get high-speed across our province. With the pandemic, we have seen how many organizations require beyond-high-speed internet. I’m more than happy to work with the member and their provider to see if they can have extra lines come in or what else can happen.

I know technology is changing day by day. You can increase your capacity as well with satellite. If the member would like, he can reach out to me with the organization. I can pass it on to Develop Nova Scotia and see if there are any other technologies out there that could allow them to operate their business through the pandemic and into the future.

MURRAY RYAN: A footnote on that: I did have discussions with the former Minister of Business on this, and some of his staff and Develop Nova Scotia. In this instance, this particular business is located about a kilometre from where the high-speed fibre line terminates. To go into the Sydport Industrial Park - well, it’s that kilometre-plus, obviously, when you branch off.

Moving on, I have a couple of questions related to the Nova Scotia Gaming Corporation. It was recently announced in the not-too-distant past that a U.S. fund is going to be buying the Great Canadian Gaming Corporation, and the Great Canadian Gaming Corporation owns gaming interests across the country. What’s close to home for us are the casinos here in Sydney and also in Halifax. I’m wondering about involvement or what positions the minister and his department have in relation to this program.

LABI KOUSOULIS: Just to clarify, the Nova Scotia Gaming Corporation is under the Department of Finance and Treasury Board. I’m more than happy to switch over. I’m not sure if the member still had any questions for Inclusive Economic Growth, but I would require just a few minutes to switch over staff so that I can provide answers.

If we are completely done with - I’m sorry, that is under Finance and Treasury Board, not Inclusive Economic Growth, so I would have to switch the other way. If the member has no more questions for Inclusive Economic Growth, then I’ll just need to bring in Finance and Treasury Board staff.

MURRAY RYAN: That’s fine, Madam Chair.

THE CHAIR: The honourable Minister of Finance and Treasury Board.

[8:30 p.m.]

LABI KOUSOULIS: We have no role in the sale of a corporation where one organization is buying out another. What we do have in place is a contract and that contract would be adhered to and it would be enforced.

MURRAY RYAN: In reviewing the projections for the upcoming fiscal year for the Nova Scotia Gaming Corporation, the estimated increase in net income for the year is about $4 million, I believe. I’m curious, what proportion of this increase in net income for the year is expected to come from or be derived from these new online casinos?

LABI KOUSOULIS: We had a very large drop in our revenues last year for the Nova Scotia Gaming Corporation. In the budget this year that is tabled, what is forecast for this year in terms of revenue growth is in the amount of approximately $44.5 million, or 47 per cent. Of that total amount of profitability, we would have approximately $11 million coming from online gaming.

MURRAY RYAN: How much time did you say was remaining?

THE CHAIR: Two minutes before the break.

MURRAY RYAN: Okay, thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the minister for that answer of $11 million for the online casino gaming.

Another question related to the estimated increase in net income for the year for the Nova Scotia Gaming Corporation: What was the decision behind shuttering the Gambling Awareness Nova Scotia program?

LABI KOUSOULIS: The funding for that is now within the Department of Health and Wellness. It is under our mental health area, the reason being that it was just a much better fit. A lot of times when you are working with an addiction, there might be more than one addiction, so solely for focusing on the gambling addiction when there could be other underlying issues made more sense to have it under the Department of Health.

As well, funding was moved over. There was no reduction in the services. What happened was there will be an enhancement in service because they will have the ability now, if the need is there, to tackle more than just one single issue. There will be broader supports that can look at underlying issues, multiple addictions and other factors as well.

THE CHAIR: Order, please. We will take our mandated 15-minute break and return at 8:50 p.m.

[8:35 p.m. The committee recessed.]

[8:50 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

THE CHAIR: Order, please.

The honourable member for Northside-Westmount with 16 minutes in the time remaining.

MURRAY RYAN: I’d like to discuss trade with the minister in the remaining 16 minutes.

Specifically, the government’s been quite vocal about their efforts to build and strengthen relationships with China. I’m wondering, now that the House of Commons has declared China’s treatment of the Uighurs to be genocide, does the minister view this policy as still being viable?

LABI KOUSOULIS: As I had mentioned earlier, China’s our second-largest trading partner. Approximately $1 billion last year was traded to China. It’s a vitally important trading partner for our seafood industry. We’ve seen our lobster industry double in prices when we opened that market up, when we started marketing Nova Scotia lobster as a premium product, which it is - especially with the cold waters that it comes from.

In terms of the House of Commons, it’s the federal government that is always working on our diplomatic relationships. I know they have a dialogue with China, and I encourage them to keep that dialogue open and keep having discussions moving forward with them.

MURRAY RYAN: The former Premier said it was not our role to tell China that they’re wrong, despite being widely condemned. I look at the two Michaels as another example. I appreciate the federal government’s role related to diplomatic relations, but I’m curious: Is this belief shared by the current Premier and Minister of Trade?

LABI KOUSOULIS: I can’t speak for the Premier. As for myself, over the last few years I’ve had a dialogue with ambassadors from China. I’ve had dialogue with individuals from the embassy who represented Chinese students, who we have many in the province. I feel that dialogue and better understanding is a way to strengthen a relationship. That’s always how I’ve conducted my business.

MURRAY RYAN: On the www.novascotia.ca/China website, it states that Nova Scotia’s China engagement strategy outlines how the Province will forge a stronger alliance with China by building mutually beneficial trade, investment, business, political and cultural relationships.

I’m curious: What are the mutually beneficial political relationships that the government is forging?

LABI KOUSOULIS: Pre-COVID-19, we had our Premier travel to China approximately twice a year. Trade shows, travelling there with various businesses from Yarmouth all the way to Sydney. With that, it opened our exports to much higher exports to China than we’ve ever seen.

As I mentioned, we do approximately $3 billion of exports to the United States. China is second at $1 billion. They are our largest partner, accounting for double what we trade with all of Europe and the U.K.

We’ve had our exhibitions from the Nova Scotia Art Gallery - the Maud Lewis exhibition travelled to China, so we’re sharing part of our culture, part of our history there as well. With that is a better understanding.

We share our education as well. We have many Chinese students who come here to get educated as well. We have programs where Nova Scotia students go to China and do terms and live in China as well for their term and come back with a better understanding of China and being able to open more doors for Nova Scotia businesses.

MURRAY RYAN: The Province of Nova Scotia does about $3 billion in trade annually with the U.S., $1 billion with China, and approximately $500 million with Europe and the U.K. I’m assuming that those are historical numbers.

I’m curious, where did those numbers land for the fiscal year end that is just closing now - 2020-21?

LABI KOUSOULIS: Stats Canada hasn’t released those numbers to us, so we wouldn’t have them. We would have a slight softening across numbers, but our exports have remained strong. Our seafood has been leaving the province and our manufacturers have continued to provide their goods and services to market.

I’m hopeful that we won’t have a very large reduction from those numbers when we get our final numbers for fiscal 2020.

MURRAY RYAN: Just one last thing on that. I can appreciate that you don’t have the information yet from Stats Canada, but you do have the information as related to what is going into or what considerations went into building the 2021-22 budget.

To that end, what kind of growth are you anticipating or projecting for these three markets, which I’m assuming form the bulk of our trade?

LABI KOUSOULIS: I have the global number. I’ll gather the breakdown by country and provide that to the member. Globally - and this is economic numbers, so these aren’t the actual statistical numbers - we’re anticipating approximately an 8.1 growth in this year, and next year in 2022 we’re anticipating an 8.8 growth. Last year we anticipated that the final number will fall on approximately a 14 per cent decrease in the total value of exports. As well, these are economic numbers coming from the Department of Finance and Treasury Board.

MURRAY RYAN: I thank the minister for those answers. Just one thing that he mentioned there, about the 14 per cent decrease - obviously that was in relation to the impact that the pandemic has had worldwide, not just here in Nova Scotia.

In real terms, if we’re looking at an 8.1 per cent increase for this current year and an 8.8 per cent in the year 2022-23 year, from a dollar perspective, when does the department believe we’ll be back to where we were this time last year?

LABI KOUSOULIS: We believe we’ll be back to our pre-COVID-19 in 2022.

MURRAY RYAN: I was looking at the Canada-European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement that came into force, and I was wondering, what data does the department have related to our exports to the E.U. and how they’ve benefited from this trade agreement?

[9:00 p.m.]

LABI KOUSOULIS: The CUKTCA, which is short for the Canada-United Kingdom Trade Continuity Agreement, came into force April 1^st of 2021. We’re expecting exports to be - in 2019, exports were approximately 90 million, to the U.K., and the transitory agreement between Canada and the U.K. will provide stability and predictability for our businesses, and the agreement is actually based on CETA. We believe that this transition to this new agreement will be smooth. Our exporters are already well acquainted with the processes with CETA as well.

It’s a first step with the U.K., due to their circumstances. We’re pleased that Canada and the U.K. are committed, and we’ll see the conclusion of this full agreement within the next three years.

MURRAY RYAN: I take it from the minister’s answer that he was referring to the U.K.’s Brexit, as it’s become known, their separation from the European Union, from a trade perspective. The United Kingdom is a very valuable ally and trading partner, and we here in Nova Scotia have very close ties to the island and Ireland, of course, and Scotland.

That said, I’m curious at the $90 million number. How about in relation to Europe, the continent, what is left of the European Union, and how trade has been impacted, presumably positively, COVID-19 notwithstanding, since the agreement was struck?

LABI KOUSOULIS: Our most recent year with the E.U. was $527 million of trade.

MURRAY RYAN: Related that $520 million, what was that before the trade agreement was struck with the European Union and Canada? Would you have that information, by chance?

LABI KOUSOULIS: We don’t have that information at our fingertips, but we can get the economists to search what it was. We know that our trade with Europe has been increasing every year, but we’ll get the amount prior to CETA.

MURRAY RYAN: Now I’d like to switch to the overall budget. Thus far in the budget process and in communications from government, they’ve continually compared this year’s budgeted spending to last year’s budgeted spending. There’s actually another column in the middle of everything, and it’s last year’s forecasted spending, which is much closer to the actual end-of-day number for the fiscal 2020-2021.

I’m wondering if the minister could comment on why the government is continually comparing this year’s budget to last year’s budget, instead of comparing the current forecast for how the year 2021 will finish to this year’s upcoming budget for 2021-2022.

LABI KOUSOULIS: For anyone who’s looking at our Budget Estimates, all the columns are given, so what we allow for is for individuals in all of our budget documents to see what we anticipate we will spend within each department and with any subsection of a department this year.

We also show what was budgeted last year, and we also show in a separate column what we actually spent last year. Last year, due to COVID-19, you’ll see many departments having their numbers increased quite significantly, especially the ones that were making investments or funding anything COVID-19-related.

In terms of discussion, sometimes we might do a comparison, where we talk about what we’re spending now in the budget or what we’re anticipating to spend versus what we actually spent last year, and other times, just in our wording, we might talk about what the year-over-year budget amount was. It’s just a matter of context. In terms of all the documents, all three columns are there, so anyone who’s looking at them can have the full breadth and all the information.

MURRAY RYAN: Context matters when it comes to numbers, but not a lot of people have - they listen to the sound bites. They listen to the top 10,000-foot level. They’re not going to go looking into the information. We hear, such as for the Department of Health and Wellness spending on mental health, that it’s going up $28 million, when in actual fact, it’s going up about $8 million or $9 million in the current fiscal year budget versus what was actually spent last year. People can get confused when they hear this top-line comparison.

To the minister’s point that last year’s numbers were skewed from budget, to a large extent, as it pertained to the spending on COVID‑19: in response, in the current budget for the upcoming year, there’s an additional $350 million in that budget for the 2021-22 fiscal year. You don’t use the forecasted actuals for last year in comparison to the upcoming year’s budget. The upcoming budget’s numbers are skewed to last year’s estimates.

LABI KOUSOULIS: Again, last year, when the budget was laid out, COVID‑19 was not part of that budget process. Obviously, the government responded to COVID‑19, and whatever investments had to be made, we made them to keep Nova Scotians safe, to help fund our businesses that were experiencing difficulties. With that, you’ll see line items in the budget where there was a large jump from what was anticipated to be spent to what was actually spent. COVID‑19 is an extraordinary circumstance, and we made the investments for Nova Scotians.

THE CHAIR: The time for the PC caucus has elapsed. I will now move to the NDP caucus.

The honourable member for Dartmouth South.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I will start with some questions for Finance and Treasury Board to keep the same staff there. I’ll start by thanking the staff for all their help tonight. I heard a lot of heavy hitters on that list. I know you’re burning the midnight oil just like us, answering the questions we’re bringing forward, and I appreciate it.

My first question for the minister is: The government business plan says that there are plans to conduct a recovery review in 2021 to ensure that existing programs are affordable and improving the well-being of Nova Scotians. We have heard a little bit about this review. I’m wondering if the minister can tell us which department will lead the review.

LABI KOUSOULIS: Within reviews, which government does on a constant basis to make sure that our programs are meeting the needs of Nova Scotians, the review that’s being referenced here will be moved forward through the Office of Strategy Management and also Finance and Treasury Board, but it’s a full government effort, so every department will be involved, and as we do every year within government and within all organizations even outside of government, you look at the investments you’re making and how you can maximize those investments and stretch your dollars further, the same way we do in our household budgets. Government is no different. We try to make sure that our investments are going as far as they can to help and support Nova Scotians.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I understand and certainly hope that government is always reviewing our investments to ensure that they meet our needs and are in the right place, doing the right work. But I’m speaking specifically of a recovery review that was announced, so that’s great if my understanding is that that’s the Office of Strategy Management and the Department of Finance and Treasury Board. I’m wondering if there are terms of reference for this review that could be shared.

LABI KOUSOULIS: No. There are no terms of reference on it. It’s just as we always do - looking at our programs and making them better. Now we have a COVID-19 lens on it as well.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Just to be clear, there isn’t a specific recovery review for 2021 as previously announced - there’s just the normal process of reviewing programs as they happen. Is that the case?

LABI KOUSOULIS: At a very high level, our review is aiming to ensure that the programs that are delivered by the province will enhance social well-being, sustain the environment, and create growth and shared value that benefits all Nova Scotians. The programs must be affordable for Nova Scotia taxpayers as we return to balance over our fiscal plan, to ensure that we can keep making investments on behalf of Nova Scotians.

In terms of - the member had asked if there a full term of reference - that’s being worked on as we speak. It’s not there now but what the intent is is for us to review our programs and make sure that we’re delivering the best value we can to the taxpayer.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Certainly, I hope that the minister will share those terms of reference when they are available. When the minster says - and I had seen this before - that existing programs need to be affordable, of course we agree. On this path back to balance, should Nova Scotians expect cuts or layoffs in the public service?

LABI KOUSOULIS: In terms of my time in government, I’ve been very much against layoffs. I’ve been very much against cuts. If you look at over the last seven years, even when a department such as the former ERDT (Economic Rural Development and Tourism) was closed down, we did it in a way where all the individuals who worked there were offered employment. They were also offered, if they wanted, to take a package for early retirement. We left the choice up to them.

When I came into government, there was a new department formed, which was Internal Services. When we came in in 2013, there was a report on our desk that said we could have great efficiencies with lots of layoffs and save lots of money. I looked at the report and I felt that it would not work. In the end, what we did is we chose a different path, which was let’s form the department, let’s look at our operations, let’s improve productivity and if we find any savings, we can work through it through attrition.

I don’t believe that a civil service should be facing layoffs. I believe that a well-functioning civil service performs well and works hard on behalf of Nova Scotians when they know they have job security. That doesn’t mean that you can come to work and not perform. Performance management is a separate issue.

I believe that if a job becomes obsolete and there’s an individual in that job, what we need to do is retrain that individual and move them into a job that’s available. We do have many vacancies in government, as we have flows of employees in and out. I believe that, as we’ve demonstrated over the last seven years, when you show your public service that you are committed to them, they will respond by working very hard for you and all Nova Scotians.

In the last seven years, I’ve been very pleased that we haven’t had mass layoffs and uncertainty because of those reasons. The civil service has been excellent and I’m very grateful for the hard work they do. I have a lot of respect for them, and I look forward to them delivering services on behalf of Nova Scotians.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I look forward to seeing some contrary takes on this government’s labour record, but for right now I want to move on.

The minister in the budget address stated that in four years, the budget would be balanced. Is there a plan for exactly how to accomplish that? In particular, my question is, that four-year fiscal plan, such that we’ve seen it, shows a decrease of more than $200 million in departmental expenses next year. We’ve only seen that year, we know that we’re going to lose $200 million in expenses, and I’m wondering in what programs and departments we will see the funding cuts to make that up.

[9:15 p.m.]

I take the minister’s point about attrition and found savings, but I wonder if there’s - I don’t think that money could be made up by attrition entirely, and I wonder if there’s any more detail about how that 2 per cent reduction will be achieved.

LABI KOUSOULIS: If you start looking through the budget, there’s a reason we broke out the column on COVID-19 spending. If memory serves me correct, it’s somewhere in the vicinity of $350 million annual for this annual budget.

Most of the $200 million we’re speaking about next year is very simple. It’s just the reduction in COVID-19 spending as we move to a full reopening of our economy, reduction in all of the supports that we have. We do still anticipate some spending of COVID-19 next year and in the future year after that. There’s where you see a further reduction a year after.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I’m glad the minister brought up the $1 billion in additional appropriations. I will note that we received what detail we did in a two-paged, double-sided, black and white photocopy that came along with our budget documents a year later.

Again, a billion dollars. We understand those appropriations were made because of the exigencies of COVID-19, but I will state again that it was incredibly disappointing to see that this spending proceeded with no legislative oversight. I’ll say, also, to see the moves to enshrine that in our law as we move into discussing the Financial Measures Act tomorrow, but I will save my comments on that for tomorrow.

It’s unfortunate that Nova Scotia has the dubious distinction of being the only province whose legislature did not sit in some form during the first wave of this pandemic. This is a bit of a preamble, but I will say that I am taking the time to do that because this the very first opportunity that we have had as elected members to ask questions on behalf of our constituents about that billion dollars in appropriations.

Could the minister tell us, to begin with: In terms of that billion dollars, what criteria were used to determine where the funding would be allocated? I understand, again, exigent circumstances, but certainly there must have been some specific criteria that the minister was using in order to allocate those funds, or his predecessor.

LABI KOUSOULIS: When the pandemic hit, we were fortunate in Nova Scotia that we had already passed our budget. Other provinces did not have that good fortune, and that’s a lot of the reason why they were reconvened - their legislatures - and sat in their legislatures for a month or months on end, discussing their budgets and getting them passed so they’d have the flexibility to move forward. Some provinces didn’t have the proper emergency measures authority to move through the pandemic. We were fortunate that we did here in Nova Scotia. That was very much a bonus for us.

I truly believe that because Nova Scotia was solely focused on the daily update with Dr. Strang and the Premier, and because we were focused on following doctor’s orders, is why we have fared so well. Now we see other areas of this country, some of them in complete shutdown, other areas rioting, and I think a big part of our success and our low case numbers is because we did go into the Legislature early, we did pass our budget, and we did have the proper emergency measures in place to move forward. Because of that, we’ve had a very low case count. Because of that, we’re back to pre-pandemic employment rates and we have more women working today in Nova Scotia than we did prior to COVID-19 coming into our province. There’s a lot of positives from this.

In terms of the COVID-19 spending, when you have a department such as Community Services and someone needs funding because they have no income, you don’t go and look at your budget and say: Hey, do we have this budgeted? You provide that. When you have somebody who accesses a service on behalf of government, and the service is there provided, you don’t stop providing that service because your budget has been reached.

In terms of the billion-dollar investment, a very large portion of it went to providing PPE and keeping our health care workers safe. Another portion went to purchasing ventilators and making sure that if the pandemic ripped through our province, like many other parts of the world, and we had Nova Scotians who were fighting for their lives, we had the ventilators to keep them alive and move them forward.

We also had investments as people lost their jobs and they needed supports through Community Services. It was there. We were supporting our small businesses and, in terms of moving the province forward, the money, the investments went to keeping Nova Scotians safe, ensuring that we got as many businesses through the pandemic as possible, and making sure that we came out of this as one of the strongest provinces in the country and one of the strongest and best places to be living in the world, which I believe we are.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I thank the minister for that answer. With respect to the minister, I know, sort of, where the money was spent, based on the photocopy I received, but my question is why. The minister’s answer is that if Community Services needs money to help somebody, they just do it and don’t check the budget. With all due respect, it is very hard to swallow that answer.

I spent today on the phone with a transition house for women whose staff are not getting vaccinated, who have spent tens of thousands of dollars on unreimbursed hotel room fees because government hasn’t stepped in. As the minister knows, having been a minister and part of Executive Council for a long time, there are always more needs than there is the ability for government to meet those needs and this government, in particular, has been very clear on that count.

My question is not what did you spend it on. We have some accounting of that, but my question is: How is it prioritized? The minister earlier compared the budget to a household budget ‑ a comparison that I find very difficult for lots of reasons ‑ but going with that analogy, if I have to decide whether I’m sending my kid to summer camp or buying a new pair of shoes, there are a lot of things that go into that decision. I’m going to decide to send my kid to summer camp, but that’s ‑ there are always competing priorities.

My question to the minister is: How did they get chosen? And before the minister answers that question, I want to say that the assertion that the legislatures in this country that had to meet to debate spending didn’t have the proper emergency measures in place is insulting to democracy, to be quite frank. I would say they did, in fact, have the proper measures in place. They had the measures in place such that a democratic institution could continue to function in the wake of an emergency, as they have done for hundreds of years. This is not a nice to have; it’s a need to have.

Again, my question to the minister is: How was the billion dollars in spending for COVID-19 relief prioritized among the different departments in government?

LABI KOUSOULIS: The priorities for spending were keeping Nova Scotians safe, keeping our frontline health care workers safe, and making sure that Nova Scotians who needed support got the support that they needed.

I will talk about emergency measures again to clarify for the member, but when we actually were rolling out our emergency measures and businesses were being forced to shut down, other jurisdictions found they did not have the legislative authority to do so. I can understand the member wanted to be in the Legislature and discuss, but in Nova Scotia we had the authority to actually be able to shut down certain businesses, certain sectors, and those are the emergency measures that we had.

Other provinces found they did not have that and because of that they were forced to go into the Legislature to give themselves that ability. In those provinces, we saw those bills were passed within a day. They weren’t even debated because everybody was on the same side in making sure to keep their citizens safe, which is what we were doing here in Nova Scotia.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: To be fair, we have never spoken against any of the public health measures that have been taken, in the NDP caucus. We have questions about the $300 million thereabouts that went out the door in the first several weeks on road building and infrastructure, but we will save those questions for a different department.

Are there any anticipated impacts of these investments? Is there an assessment that will be made of whether they were successful in meeting their intended purpose, what the outcome of that spending was? Or is it just in this basket of emergency spending, it’s out the door to meet the immediate need, and on we go?

LABI KOUSOULIS: Early on in the pandemic, in the early days, the driving factor, which is also one of the ways we would measure our success, was public health outcomes. It was to keep as many Nova Scotians from contracting the disease, from getting sick from it, from being in ICU. What we’ve seen is because we’ve done well with those numbers and we’ve had very low case counts, we’ve seen a much quicker rebound in our economy. Today one of our economists shared with me that Nova Scotia is back and we’re above pre-pandemic employment figures, and there’s only one province in all of Canada that’s ahead of us in terms of where they’re at with their employment figures.

Many provinces are 5 and 6 per cent below in terms of how many people are working today versus last year, and I think that the fact that we’re back to where we were last year is a testament to Nova Scotians listening to Dr. Strang and the Premier and making sure they were following guidelines. I saw many people here following those rules and guidelines. You didn’t hear of individuals who were as much anti-mask or anti-vaccines, so I think that was a large part of our success too.

In terms of the investments made, it was with the lens of keeping Nova Scotians safe. If they did get sick, making sure that we were set up. I know early days of the pandemic, in one of my briefings we had two full empty ICUs that were separate from the entire hospital to make sure that when the disease came into the hospital, that they were contained and there was no cross-contamination amongst staff, amongst people coming and going. Fortunately, only one of those ICUs started operating because our severe case count was low and the other one was never fully utilized.

I’d say just how our lives are as close to normal as can be, and we’re not facing curfews and lockdowns, is a testament to how well we’ve done with COVID-19.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: A number of the additional appropriations that we’re discussing were administered by organizations outside of government, including the COVID-19 relief funds that were transferred to Dalhousie University. Were appropriate agreements and accountability frameworks put in place to establish measurable outcomes in the case of those funds that were not directly administered by government? Was there transparency about the effectiveness of that spending? Can the minister speak to those agreements, the one specifically with Dalhousie?

LABI KOUSOULIS: Absolutely. The Red Cross was administering a large part of that program with Dalhousie University. They were paid a monthly fee for their staff, but government set the criteria, and then we required an organization to help us get it out the door because we didn’t have staff ready to go. That’s where Dalhousie also came in as a partner. We made sure that the criteria were broad and captured as many businesses as we could so that we could support them and get them either the initial COVID-19 funding or the reopening funding, where they were able to access funds to buy PPE, to put up any shields or any other investments they had to make into their businesses.

As well, we always did look at the funding. If it wasn’t going far enough or if we saw funding that was still available, we looked at other programs where we could have a larger impact on a sector, and that is part of where the announcement about a month, a month and a half ago, for the restaurant industry and the tourism accommodations industry where extra funding of approximately $14 million came from for those two sectors.

[9:30 p.m.]

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I appreciate the answer. My question in particular, though, was about the transparency of the administration of those programs. Our caucus filed a freedom of information request asking for minutes for meetings of the COVID‑19 Response Council at Dal. I’ll just remind folks listening that that was responsible for administering $100 million in relief funds. The response to our FOI was that there were no minutes and there were no agendas. Can the minister explain how Dalhousie is reporting back to the province and accounting for the administration of these funds? We can’t find a paper trail.

LABI KOUSOULIS: All the decisions around those funds and who was eligible for them came from government. Executive Council set the criteria. What Dalhousie and the Red Cross were is actually just transaction area bodies. They would gather the information from the companies, verify it, and then the funds would flow out. They weren’t part of decision-making. They didn’t have boards that were determining any type of priorities. That was all done through Executive Council.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Then can the minister tell me what the purpose of the COVID‑19 Response Council at Dalhousie University was? Was that just a body that answered emails and sent cheques, or did it have any purpose or discretionary power at all?

LABI KOUSOULIS: The COVID‑19 Response Council worked very closely with another council that is made up of deputy ministers. They did provide feedback back into government. They would provide feedback into government, and government would take their recommendations. They did have the ability to make recommendations to government, and government had the ability to accept them or veto them. We worked together with that council in terms of tweaking programs or new programs and moving forward. The funding and the intent of that funding, when it was first executed for the programs, was approved by Executive Council and moved forward from them.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I have a lot more questions about that, but in the interest of time, I’m going to move on. Hopefully, if there are any minutes or anything else that could be made available from those meetings, we certainly would love to see them.

The federal government created a number of funding streams to provide financial support to the provinces, and that continues to flow, we see as recently as - upcoming announcements - this week. A January report from the CCPA indicated that as of December 2020, Nova Scotia had not accessed the full federal amount the province was entitled to in support for low-wage essential workers. More than $6 million was left. Does the minister know anything about this and why it would not have been spent?

LABI KOUSOULIS: When the program was laid out by the federal government, there was a cost-share component to it and each province was able to look at who was going to be supported, in terms of a wage top-up for frontline health care workers. I’m not sure if we’re talking about the same part or not. This was the increased, one-time funding that went to our frontline health care workers.

What Nova Scotia chose to do and why some money was left over is when we picked all the groups that were eligible for it, the groups that we left out were the executive level in our health care system, which would be the presidents and the vice-presidents. But in terms of - we went even beyond our own health care employees and we went and included employees of Northwood, Shannex, and even the private operators that have contracts with government.

I’m not sure if we’re talking about the same thing or not, but if we’re not, I can get information from staff if the member could provide a bit more information.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Thank you. I will come back to that question and I appreciate the answer from the minister.

One of the items included in the budget was a rebate for electric vehicles. That was early, right out of the gate. The estimated cost of the rebate is about $9.5 million, I think. The minister can correct me if I’m wrong. I’m wondering: What are the numbers connected with this? What’s the average cost of an electric car? How many do we expect to be sold? What was the analysis that led to this being an effective investment?

We always like to see moves towards a greener grid and a greener economy and fewer emissions, but I think there are some questions about where that electrification starts and who it benefits. I just wonder if the minister can share some analysis on that particular program.

LABI KOUSOULIS: The funding we’re talking about there for the electrification of vehicles, that was a 2021 budget item, so it was updated in a forecast last year. This would probably be a better question for the member to ask the Department of Energy and Mines. It did come out of their department and they do hold the program, so they would have a lot more details.

Off the top of my head, I know there was a maximum dollar amount that electric vehicles could qualify for the rebate. I believe the rebate - I’m just going strictly from memory here because it was not our program - was up to $5,000 and it also applied to used electric vehicles. In that was also a $500 rebate for electric bicycles.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: If I could be in two places at once, I would also be asking questions of the Minister of Energy and Mines in my role as critic for that, but alas here I am, so I will hope that that question gets asked.

I will follow up with a question that, perhaps, will also be deferred to a different department. Along those same lines, the provincial government didn’t match federal funds for municipal operating and transit budgets and I’m wondering if the minister could offer any insight into that decision.

LABI KOUSOULIS: The program we’re talking about was a federal program – the Safe Restart Agreement - and when the program became available, we reached out through the Nova Scotia Federation of Municipalities to all the municipalities in the province. They went to all the municipalities and totalled up how much funding they required to get to what they needed. It was identified that all municipalities in Nova Scotia required $66 million in funding. The province provided $67 million of which we leveraged our federal counterparts. We met all the needs of municipalities and that’s why there would have been more funding available that we could have kept moving on, but having met the needs of what they were asking for under that program, we exceeded the needs of what was asked by approximately $1 million.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Household debt levels have been identified as a risk to the province’s economic performance for a number of years. I haven’t seen the numbers, but I can only assume that that may have intensified during the pandemic. I’m wondering what measures, if any, are included in this budget to address concerns about rising household debt levels.

[9:45 p.m.]

LABI KOUSOULIS: I don’t have the exact household debt numbers on hand but I’m more than happy to gather that information for the member.

What information we do have on hand, which was shared with me last month and it was a pleasant surprise, is that the overall income levels of Nova Scotians during COVID-19 actually rose higher. A big part of that is the supports that were in place from our federal government, in terms of individuals who lost their jobs or had a reduction in income and enhanced the EI supports as well. We do know at a macro level that Nova Scotians last year during the pandemic earned more money, and what we also do know - because we can see it, for example in our gas revenues - is that Nova Scotians spent a lot less money in terms of their daily expenses, commuting to work and other expenses as well.

My hope is that when we do get those numbers that household debt will have decreased. We also know that Nova Scotians made investments in their homes, which is a big part of why we’ve seen such a rise in our lumber prices, because of the worldwide demand and anything to do with household improvements.

It’s a question that interests me as well, in terms of where our household debt has landed and I will get the information for the member.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I appreciate that answer. I think all those things that the minister points to are true, for some folks. I would also submit that, at least in my neighbourhood, we’ve gotten a lot of people with good jobs who have moved here from other places and are well employed, so that will certainly add to our numbers.

Some people have been renovating their homes, some people have been staying home and, I guess, not buying coffees. I know that for many people, for my family, child care costs have gone way, way up, in terms of camps and things like that, because of scarcity. There’s always that balance happening. Certainly, for folks who were kind of on the edge financially, I’m not sure they would have that same take about how the pandemic has impacted them financially.

One of the areas where we’ve discussed this in the past and which certainly remains a live issue for us is payday loans and predatory lending. My guess is that that has not decreased throughout the pandemic and that it continues to be a concern. Those are the kinds of places where we would be interested in seeing some real action, to make sure that people are not being taken advantage of, notwithstanding people like those of us in this Chamber and elsewhere who have the great fortune to make a good living.

The budget documents themselves state that weaker labour market attachment, permanent business closures, elevated debt levels, and more cautious investment decisions may have long-term impacts on growth. To that end, I know, and again I guess back to child care - it’s always back to child care in this session - there’s no money in this budget for child care and I have heard from the Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development about how daycares were kept open during the pandemic. I salute you for that. I understand that that happened and yet I believe, our caucus believes, that we need a greatly expanded investment in child care generally but particularly in the context of the pandemic and the after-effects of the pandemic.

I wonder if the minister could answer the question about what measures are included in this budget to address the stated concern about labour market attachment.

LABI KOUSOULIS: Just looking up some information on that. In terms of within the budget, this is our first year that pre-Primary is fully funded, and that is, I think, a very positive step forward. I do agree with the member in terms of the cost of child care and how it needs to be a priority. I’m very pleased that our Premier has said it’s a priority of his and it’s one of mine. I have two young children who have gone through school and I’ve seen the impact of child care. I know it’s one where we need to make sure that we’re supporting Nova Scotians because it also helps them get to work and go to work if we have affordable child care. I believe it can increase our workforce and solve a lot of the labour shortages we have.

In terms of employment growth, just very quickly, I’ve got some information here. We are showing employment growth, a full rebound, and I have the forecasters, as well, just for information here. We’re showing a full rebound from BMO, National Bank, RBC, and Scotiabank, and many of them - RBC is showing that our 4.7 per cent dip last year is offset by a 6.4 per cent increase in 2021 of our labour employment growth. It’s followed up the following year by another 1.6. Scotiabank is showing a full recovery in 2021, but they’re being more optimistic in the out year, so they’re showing the growth not happening immediately in 2021 but pushed out to 2022. We do know as of today, the numbers just came out on Friday, that we are at our pre-pandemic levels of employment, and we do know that during the pandemic, women were more adversely affected in terms of their employment. I’m very pleased that in terms of women in the workforce, we’re at a higher level of employment as well.

I’m more than happy to share this information with the member. Our economist does have it and I’ll make sure that the department emails it to her if she would like to get me her email.

THE CHAIR: Order, please. We will now take our mandated 15-minute break, and we’ll be back at 10:07 p.m.

[9:52 p.m. The committee recessed.]

[10:07 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

THE CHAIR: Order, please. We will continue with the NDP caucus.

The honourable member for Dartmouth South.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: With the permission of the department, I’m going to switch to include the Department of Inclusive Economic Growth. I know that means - probably, there’s going to be a switch back - but such is the way things are organized this evening.

Does the minister need a little bit of time to switch stuff?

LABI KOUSOULIS: We can start whenever you’re ready, Madam Chair.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: The Department of Business has a new name: the Department of Inclusive Economic Growth. According to the mandate letter, inclusive economic growth is defined as an economy that creates opportunities for all segments of the population and that distributes the dividends of increased prosperity both in monetary and non-monetary terms for the well-being of all Nova Scotians. Certainly laudable.

In terms of creating opportunities for all segments of the population, we know that there are many different barriers to participation in the labour market, which we were just talking about in the minister’s former department. Many of these have been intensified during the COVID-19 pandemic.

What barriers to labour market participation, notwithstanding the good numbers that we heard, have been identified by the department? We suspect some of those may become more apparent the further we get away from CERB and other federal government programs that have been helpful during the pandemic.

What barriers to labour market participation have been identified to the department by the department and what solutions are put forward in this budget?

LABI KOUSOULIS: This is a question I’m more than happy to answer. If the member gets a chance, it’s one where also there would be a strong overlap with my former department, Department of Labour and Advanced Education. Having been there, both departments are looking at labour market and at business growth. I’m more than happy to talk about these areas and I’ll talk, as well, about what our department is doing to help them.

An area that has been identified primarily where there are labour shortages is the skilled labour force. There has been such an increase in construction, demand for construction jobs. This will just keep increasing as we see the hospital redevelopment in Sydney and the hospital here in HRM move forward. Skilled labour is one area that needs a focus. Fish processing is one. When I was at LAE, a lot of fish processing plants had difficulty finding employees. It kept them from expanding their operations. That applies as well to the agriculture industry.

Another industry where recently we would have seen an investment done is our IT sector. Our IT sector has been doing quite well the last few years. It’s an area where there is high demand for computer programmers. Recently there was an investment to expand all the computer programming programs at our universities - St. F.X., Acadia, and Dalhousie University. Government has also made commitments for investments at the NSCC for an expansion of its IT campus.

When we talk about the inclusive part of our economic growth, programs that look at entering the workforce which were under Labour and Advanced Education, there were gender bonuses for women who were underrepresented in certain sectors, under programs such as Graduate to Opportunity and Graduate to Innovation. As well, there are diversity bonuses for visible minorities and other minorities in those programs.

Here at IEG, one area that NSBI has worked towards - because our main support where we have a lot of flexibility is through NSBI with payroll rebates - one aspect they have started to incorporate within the last couple of years and with payroll rebates is making sure that there is a diversity bonus in there so that companies, when they’re coming here and setting up and we’re providing a payroll rebate, we’re making sure we provide opportunities, whether it be gender or visible minorities or backgrounds to make sure that they can have a better chance to get into the workforce within the fields that are funded by government.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I note that almost all of the industries that the member mentioned are male-dominated industries and many are private sector industries. I want to ask the minister, because this is what we have certainly heard anecdotally - we have also heard about labour force shortages in the caring professions, in more female-dominated industries - ECEs, CCAs, teachers, doctors. Does this department or your former department have any stats or sense of that and any investments in those areas in the budget?

[10:15 p.m.]

LABI KOUSOULIS: Yes, if we start with our teachers, in the last six or seven years from coming into government, the net number of teachers working in the province has increased by over 1,000. We’re talking net teachers. That means even more have been hired, when you look at how many have retired. Doctors - there was a program when I was at the Department of Labour and Advanced Education where we expanded the doctor seats and we targeted with that having seats specifically for underrepresented groups - Mi’kmaq, African Nova Scotian - as well as targeting the graduates, those coming in from rural areas because we know that if we get a doctor going to med school from a rural area, there’s a greater chance they’d go back and practise in a rural area.

The ECE is another one where the Department of Labour and Advanced Education a couple years ago, recognizing the shortage, did a labour market study and increased funding to the NSCC to make sure that they were going to produce the number of ECEs that were required in order for the province to make sure that we were providing that level of employment.

When I did talk about our fish processors, many of them have - I can’t remember the name of the fish processor, but in order to attract women to come and work at the plant they brought in and funded on-site child care. They were trying to open up the market for single parents and parents who were at home due to a lack of being able to find child care, they could find it at that company. There’s a lot of movement happening. Again, I’m familiar with these programs. They were primarily under the Department of Labour and Advanced Education.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: One of the barriers that’s been made very clear during the pandemic is the disparity between workers who have access to paid sick leave and those who don’t. For many people, missing a shift means lost wages, which could mean not making rent, having to skip meals, and, while as the minister has pointed out, we’ve been extremely lucky so far in Nova Scotia in terms of COVID-19, we still know that there are thousands of people being tested every single day. There are lots of people who are symptomatic and testing who are required to stay home, and there are very likely lots of people who aren’t testing because they can’t afford to miss work.

We know that there is a federal program, but it is not generous and it can be slow. If someone needs to take work off tomorrow, that federal program doesn’t help them, and it also doesn’t guarantee their job. Now that the department has this new name, Inclusive Economic Growth, will the department stand as a broker to advocate for all workers to have access to paid sick days so that they can take care of this public health situation we find ourselves in?

LABI KOUSOULIS: Again, this would be a question for the Minister of Labour and Advanced Education. When it comes to benefits and when it comes to what our minimum wage is set at, that’s where you would direct that questioning. I can say that in terms of our department, what we’re focused on is ensuring that various backgrounds - minorities, males, females - have access to our programs, that we’re looking at industries and if there’s an underrepresentation, that we provide a pathway to increase that representation.

We’re also looking at ensuring that we’re more broad-reaching amongst our programs and making sure that as we have this new lens, this is where in my discussion with NSBI, they’re taking a stronger look at rural Nova Scotia because we know there’s a higher unemployment rate in rural Nova Scotia versus urban Nova Scotia. I was very pleased that they already had a diversity bonus in place on all the payroll rebates that they’ve negotiating over the last couple of years.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I may have missed this at the beginning, but my question was specifically about paid sick days. I know that the minister is advocating a conversation with the new Minister of Labour and Advanced Education, but my question is actually for this department and for this minister. I wonder if the minister could tell us his position, against the backdrop of inclusive economic growth which he has been speaking about, on ensuring that people have access to job protection and paid sick leave so they can continue to weather this pandemic in the ways that are required by our Public Health orders.

LABI KOUSOULIS: We’re having a laugh because I asked the question of my staff. If I had my LAE staff here it would be answered.

The member did mention - I was trying to get some details around the federal program. There is a federal program where they provide income recovery for individuals who get sick and have to miss work. I agree with the member 100 per cent that if you are feeling any symptoms of COVID-19 you should be tested and not at work because we don’t want the disease spreading. We’ve done well all along over the last year but, knock on wood, we want to continue to do well.

My view on paid leave is it’s a balancing act. I was very pleased when I was at the Department of Labour and Advanced Education to bring in the first paid leave ever offered in the province of Nova Scotia and that was for victims of domestic violence. It was one that, when we looked at it, was required for the well-being of victims, to make sure they could get help, to contact a lawyer, to contact the police, to be able to seek any type of counselling or advice, and to be able to do so and miss a shift of work and not have their abuser know that their paycheque was smaller and that could start the abuse all over again.

In my view, as we move forward, I was very pleased to bring that paid leave in. I’d be open to looking at other ones as well. Again, that would be with the Department of Labour and Advanced Education. I can say that when I was there, I looked at many programs that were around leave or supports or increasing the new minimum wage as well.

THE CHAIR: Order, please. The time for the NDP caucus has expired.

For the PC Party, the honourable member for Northside-Westmount.

MURRAY RYAN: My questions are continuing on the overall Department of Finance and Treasury Board, so I don’t think the minister needs a moment. I just want to confirm that.

LABI KOUSOULIS: Give me two minutes. I have Inclusive Economic Growth here, but we’ll do the switch-over.

MURRAY RYAN: After I finish, I’ll be handing off to my colleague from Inverness. I think he may have some questions for the Inclusive Economic Growth department at the end - just so you know.

LABI KOUSOULIS: Madam Chair, may I ask how much time is left in Estimates, in total?

THE CHAIR; Yes, one moment, please. Tonight’s session will finish at 11:06 p.m. Are you all set, minister?

LABI KOUSOULIS: All set, thank you.

MURRAY RYAN: This year, we saw provincial revenues decrease 9.25 per cent, or $690 million, when you compare it to the budget that was tabled back in March of 2020. This year, for 2021-2022, the government’s forecasting revenues to bounce back by 8 per cent, or $560 million.

So, my question to the minister is: Given the impacts we are seeing from the third wave across the country, how confident is the minister in the recovery of the Nova Scotia revenue streams?

LABI KOUSOULIS: I’m very comfortable in the revenue estimates. Built into those revenue estimates is a very conservative approach. What we have built in there is one more full lockdown of four full weeks. That would be a similar lockdown to what we had last Spring. I don’t anticipate that we will have that, but, again, with how this virus spreads and new variants, you never know.

We have seen that our COVID-19 vaccines have jumped up significantly. I believe we’re up to over 40,000 a week now getting vaccinated. My hope is that the numbers stay low like they have been, and then in the next short one month to two months, we’ll be pretty close to herd immunity and that will really put us in a good position, that we won’t have to have that lockdown. I anticipate that without that full four-week lockdown, the revenues could be even higher than what are there in the budgeting process.

In discussions with staff, we looked at it and we said - and keep in mind that the budget was prepared back in - starting in December through to February, and at the time as we looked at it, not knowing if there’d be another wave or what the extent of the wave would be, we did want to be on the conservative side. We forecasted a full four-week lockdown in those estimates.

MURRAY RYAN: I’m concerned about whether additional appropriations are going to be necessary at the end of the year.

On April 8^th, the minister introduced the Financial Measures (2021) Act. This year’s iteration of the Act is mostly housekeeping issues, but with one key item. One thing of interest pertains to the government’s ability to authorize additional borrowing appropriations.

The minister stated that the change is merely giving clarity to a pre-existing government power. This puzzles me a bit because it’s a sort of thing like fixing the barn doors after the cows have come home.

My question to the minister is: Do the doors actually need to be fixed or not? If the government already had the authority, why did they feel they needed to add clarity?

[10:45 p.m.]

LABI KOUSOULIS: This piece of housekeeping - and we’re going to talk about two separate Acts. We are going to be talking about the Finance Act and the Appropriations Act.

The Finance Act is what allows us the ability to borrow through the Appropriations Act, and this is where it gets a big confusing. The Appropriations Act allows us to borrow through an Order of Executive Council. There are two acts that talk about borrowing: one says you can borrow by coming into the Legislature and having your budget brought forward, but there is another act, which is under the Appropriations Act and which also allows you to borrow through an act of Executive Council.

I will tell the member that every single government in this House ‑ NDP, Progressive Conservative, and Liberal ‑ has borrowed under the Appropriations Act outside of the budget period and I can get into details of that if he would like to have those discussions. What this is doing, in terms of what we are doing, is we are essentially combining the language of two acts and making sure that they are ‑ that one act is not pointing to the other one and saying what it can do. It’s housekeeping because we already have the ability to borrow outside of the Budget Act. The legal opinion is that governments, now and in the past, have had that ability. The NDP government had borrowing outside of the Legislature, as did the last Progressive Conservative government.

[10:30 p.m.]

MURRAY RYAN: Madam Chair, I am not a lawyer so I will rely on the government’s counsel to determine what a government can and cannot do from a legal standpoint. I do, however, have about 25 years of experience in business as an accountant and I am hard‑pressed to think of a situation where a company, a corporation, a business would not consult with its shareholders when it goes out and increases its already-planned borrowings by an additional 60 per cent.

In this case, the 51 MLAs of this Legislature represent the shareholders of Nova Scotia. Last week in a CBC interview, on Friday, the minister made reference to the fact that if the people aren’t happy, they can make their views clear at the ballot box. I would like to ask the minister: Is the minister saying that the only time the government needs to be held to account and has to explain itself is during an election?

LABI KOUSOULIS: We are into a larger discussion here about elections and what our parliamentary Westminster system is, but what I will say is that every government, ours today and past governments, have had the ability to borrow through Executive Council. That is not changing. What we’ve done here is, where there are two acts with one stating one way you can borrow and another stating another, we are combining them to make sure that housekeeping is up to date. I will point out to the member that what the act currently states is that it is Executive Council’s decision. That does not change moving forward. Executive Council, if it deems that it is required to borrow more money, can do so.

In our past, I’d say that the people of Nova Scotia have actually looked at governments and actually passed judgment on them when they felt that governments were borrowing too much or putting our province in debt. You don’t have to go too far back in our history books to see that and people in Nova Scotia did vote those governments out. I would say that if a government is not being fiscally prudent, is spending money which is not in the best interests of Nova Scotians, Nova Scotians are very aware of that.

I am very pleased with our government’s track record. We had four consecutive balanced budgets in a row and other than COVID-19, it would have been five, and other than COVID-19, this one would have been a balanced budget as well. I believe we should live within our means.

I’ve been in the finance and accounting world for my entire career and I fundamentally, 100 per cent believe that we shouldn’t be borrowing and making sure that we’re loading debt onto our children.

As well, the flexibility to borrow must be there for government. I spoke in my interview with the reporter that we saw an abnormal dip in our capital markets a couple of months ago, and the ability to act immediately and borrow $500 million meant that that money was locked in at a rate that is 100 basis points lower then than today. That is going to save Nova Scotians $5 million a year in interest expense over the next seven years. That money is locked in. That’s $35 million that we can put into health care, mental health, or our school system. We need that flexibility in government.

If we had given 30 days’ notice or even walked into the Legislature on an emergency to meet and discuss whether we should be borrowing this money or not, we would have missed the opportunity. That would cost our province $35 million today, as we speak.

MURRAY RYAN: The government stated that there will be no job losses in future periods as the government tightens its belt. Prior to the pandemic, what we did see, though, were hiring freezes in many departments across government. My question for the minister is: How does the statement by the Premier impact job losses that are the result of attrition to those that are a result of hiring freezes? Will these positions be filled?

LABI KOUSOULIS: I know of no hiring freezes. Early on in government, I was with the Public Service Commission, which is the HR of government. We never had a hiring freeze. I know in the last seven years, our government has never had a hiring freeze either.

MURRAY RYAN: This is my last question before I hand it off to my colleague from Inverness.

Madam Chair, this past year we’ve seen the cost of building material skyrocket. To this end, with all the government capital projects and general maintenance of government facilities and what have you, I’m wondering how have these increases impacted the budgets? Does the minister have an estimate of what the impact has been, percentagewise?

LABI KOUSOULIS: When we put out our RFPs and when we cost our projects, we’re doing it with the most up-to-date data that we have. Those would all be reflected in the projects. Fortunately for us, one of the largest areas of increase is lumber. Due to the nature of government, where we’re primarily commercial-based and roadbuilding-based, lumber does not factor into our purchasing or into our construction.

If you do look at our construction of schools and hospitals, it’s primarily concrete and steel. Those have had increases, but not the increases of the 100-plus per cent that we’ve seen within our lumber industry. I believe steel is up about 30 per cent for the year, so it’ll have an impact. Labour shortages will have an impact, as well.

When the engineers at the Department of Transportation and Active Transit put their plans together and look at their budgeting process for our large capital projects, they do factor in inflation. They do look at the future value of goods that would go into their projects. They would have that all calculated, and it would be updated day by day as new data and information are available.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Inverness.

ALLAN MACMASTER: It’s nice to have the opportunity to ask a few questions.

I have some questions around a pension plan windup because it’s under your responsibility as minister responsible for the Pensions Act. It’s primarily around NewPage Paper in Port Hawkesbury. Presently, it’s Port Hawkesbury Paper, but it used to be New Page.

I just want to ask if you can confirm that the government has the ability to, once again, extend the windup of their pension plan. The new windup date is in 2023, which is a couple of years away, but the pensioners are thinking about this. Their pension has not recovered significantly from the situation they were in about eight years ago. Can you confirm if the government has the ability through regulation to, once again, extend the windup date for their pension?

LABI KOUSOULIS: It’s great to see the member for Inverness. It has been a long time.

I am aware of the NewPage pension fund. When we do talk about extending it beyond 2023, that is an option, and it’s one that we are aware of. We have been having some discussions with the pension plan administrators, and we’re working with them, which we always will, moving forward.

ALLAN MACMASTER: In follow-up to that, the plan had an asset mix of 70 per cent fixed [Inaudible] income. I believe that may have been a restriction on the plan [Inaudible] it could not depend on interest rates, the investments. Interest rates remain low today as they were eight years ago. Can you confirm if that was the case? Was that a requirement, that the asset mix not be able to vary from that 70 per cent fixed income? The reason I’m asking is because I think back to a year ago when the markets took such a drop, and there may have been an opportunity to make some [Inaudible] adjustment in the asset mix at that time and perhaps ride a bit of the recovery and help to recover funds in the pension plan itself. I think there was an opportunity there. Hindsight, obviously, is 20/20. Was it, in fact, a requirement that the asset mix not deviate from 70 per cent fixed income?

LABI KOUSOULIS: I’m not aware of that restriction in the pension, and our staff here is not aware of it either. Those types of investment decisions would come from the plan administrator. There could be something in the legislation around it, but I’m not aware of it.

Generally, just from my limited knowledge of pension funds, it is very common that pension funds very much have a focus on fixed income because they don’t want the exposure to the equities. Although we saw a jump in equities over the last year, depending on timing, we saw a large dip last year, and if they were overexposed to equities, they might have been selling during the dip, which would have really put this plan in hardship, which we have seen with other plans. Larger pension funds tend to try and stay in fixed incomes and make sure they have their assets planned out for a long term because they’re always worried about a large downturn in the markets. Hindsight is 20/20, and if we could always invest in hindsight, we would be very fortunate.

I know that pension funds, as a rule of thumb, take a very cautious approach, and they look to minimize their downside and minimize their risk on their investments to make sure that they’re there for the pensioners moving forward. As easily as you can point to the last year and see that they could have made a big jump depending on timing, there were some dips and they could have also lost a significant amount of the assets that they currently hold.

[10:45 p.m.]

ALLAN MACMASTER: That’s certainly a fair response, and of course one wants to ensure that pension funds are prudent in their investment approach.

The other question I had was - and this is probably one that you can answer tonight - could you support these pensioners by giving them the option, by going out and polling them again to see if they do want to extend the windup once again? I think that’s something they appreciated, having that opportunity the last time, and they wanted to extend the windup. I think they’d appreciate having the opportunity again this time with the 2023 date approaching.

LABI KOUSOULIS: Again, this sort of ask would be the plan administrator working with the plan members. I wouldn’t be working directly with them. Through their administrator, this is a request that would come forward and I would be more than happy to work with them on it. If they work through their plan administrator and decide what they would like in terms of whether they want an extension on that or not, I’m more than happy and here to work with them as well.

ALLAN MACMASTER: I would just ask that maybe you keep an eye out for that in case it should come across your desk in the next year or so. I will encourage them to work with the administrator on that.

The next questions I have are on auto insurance. I believe that’s also under your portfolio. I guess if I could give you an opportunity to provide some comment. We’re seeing increases in auto insurance premiums. We were seeing this a number of years ago, about 10 years ago. There were changes made in the Legislature to have treatment protocols for soft tissue injuries, and there was a change made to the cap on soft tissue injuries, and there was a gradual percentage increase each year scheduled to be added on to it to accommodate increasing future costs for those soft tissue injuries.

Is this something that your office is monitoring? Have you any thoughts or comments on what we’re seeing in the world of auto insurance premiums?

LABI KOUSOULIS: That question is very timely with - I’m sure the member has received questions in terms of rising auto insurance rates, which I have as well. That piece of legislation - I believe the soft tissue damage starts off at about $5,000. It has been increasing with a CPI type of increase year after year. It’s still much below $10,000. It’s not a very large amount, which is what was pushing the auto rates up previously, that smaller accidents had larger payouts.

That legislation did set out that there had to be a review on auto insurance. That review is happening now. The Superintendent of Insurance is undertaking it. There is an opportunity for all MLAs to provide feedback or any information they would like to the superintendent. I encourage the member, and we’ll try to reach out to all the caucuses, to get a piece of contact information so that that feedback can be brought back to the superintendent.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Minister, I did just a little bit of research, and some of the issues that I’ve been hearing are that minor injuries claims where the injured person has used litigation have increased significantly between 2014 and 2018. There’s also been an increased number of claims for people who may have PTSD as a result of an accident. Those were a couple of reasons given to me.

I don’t know if there’s any feedback you can offer on that tonight, or if that’s something you’d prefer to leave to the review.

LABI KOUSOULIS: That would be exactly for the review, because it is being undertaken right now. The superintendent is not here in the department tonight, but I know the review is ongoing. They would have that exact information in the department in terms of the lawsuits and what the increase has been.

Part of the review is also to look at if we need to make any tweaks or adjustments to the legislation. What we would be doing is making sure that we make those - bring that legislation in to ensure that we’re keeping our insurance as low as possible for Nova Scotians, and at the same time ensuring that those who are in an accident get compensated fairly and properly for it.

ALLAN MACMASTER: I’ll switch away from auto insurance and move to high-speed internet, the work of Develop Nova Scotia.

One of the issues out there right now is that there’s a lot of interest by people in seeing high-speed internet get to them sooner than later. One of the issues there is - in some cases I’ve heard, it’s not money being an issue. It’s actually manpower or people power to get the work done.

I’m aware of some local contractors here in this region who were working briefly on doing that work to connect people, and they’ve actually been laid off. They’ve been replaced by other people through a Bell affiliate company.

I’m just wondering if the minister is aware of that. Not a lot of noise is made about it, but I can tell the minister that I’ve become aware of actual workers who have been laid off who could be working right now to help speed up the connection for rural Nova Scotians to get better high-speed internet.

I wonder if the minister can comment on that or let us know what he’s been hearing on it.

LABI KOUSOULIS: Just for a quick clarification, are we - for the member for Inverness, are there any more Finance and Treasury Board questions? I will switch staff as I answer this question. That’s under the former Department of Business so that [Inaudible].

ALLAN MACMASTER: I have another colleague or two who might slip in for a question, and I’ll be honest, I’m not sure if it’s Finance and Treasury Board related in their case. I think we have about 12 minutes left here. For me, there will be no more Finance and Treasury Board questions.

LABI KOUSOULIS: With the high-speed internet - the way the trust works is Develop Nova Scotia does partner with community groups to bring projects forward. We’re not managing the projects or managing the staff on the ground. What we’re doing is, whether it be through a private organization like Bell or whether it be community-based ones like municipalities, we look at the projects and we look at what the reach of those projects is, and then we provide the assistance or partial funding to help make them a reality and make sure we get the rollout of high-speed internet into those areas that don’t have it.

I wouldn’t know if Bell has laid off individuals who are doing this. I know with a large demand, if anyone in that industry is laid off, I’m very confident that they would be able to find work through competitors or through other organizations that are part of this buildout, because it is very much an aggressive buildout - a quarter of a billion dollars of infrastructure in a very short period of time.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Minister, maybe I’ll just draw what I’m seeing to your attention tonight for your further review. What I’m seeing is that there are individuals who would be able to do work right now. They have experience as well. They were doing some work. Bell, now that they have the contract in this area, is choosing to use one of their affiliate companies. That affiliate company is actually posting positions and hiring people for - I have actually gone online and seen it - $18 to $26 per hour to replace tradespeople who were getting $25 to $40 per hour.

I think this may be a case of Bell, now that they have the contract, making the most of it. Instead of using Nova Scotians who could be working on this right now with their tax dollars to bring these projects forward more quickly, they’re bypassing them. They’re using their own affiliate companies, and they’re hiring labour at a cheaper rate to maximize the dollar in their own pocket. I don’t blame Bell for doing that. Their shareholders would certainly want that.

I guess if the government is using our - in this case I know it was from offshore royalties, but it’s money that belongs to the people - it would be nice to see the people being protected somewhat from that in two ways: (1) that Nova Scotians who are ready and able to do the work are being used - anybody who’s available and could be used should be used, and (2) that Nova Scotians, if these people were being used, would get their high-speed internet more quickly.

Minister, I don’t really expect you to say too much more on this tonight, but I do want to make that point, and I wanted to draw it to your attention. I don’t know if you have a comment on that, but I’ll let you have a crack at it.

LABI KOUSOULIS: I agree completely. I’m hoping that the work that’s being funded by the taxpayers is being carried out by Nova Scotians. Especially during the pandemic, I hope there are no outside companies coming in and doing work when we have able-bodied people here to do it. I agree completely with the member.

ALLAN MACMASTER: It’s good to hear that. I guess I would ask that maybe it’s something that you could bring up with Develop Nova Scotia and see that Bell - if they have the contract, there’s probably not a lot more that we can do at this point, but perhaps some moral suasion that they do hire people who are available locally.

To your point about Nova Scotians, I had heard that a company from Quebec had come in, but I was not able to find proof of that. They may not have come in, but I know they are an affiliate of Bell doing work in Quebec, and perhaps it was just a rumour. Of course, we hear these things from people who are working on these projects, and I want to make sure you’re aware of that.

The last question I have - I guess this is one that I want to raise more as - high-speed internet is very important, and it’s going to make a real difference for the rural economy of the province. Anybody who says, well, you live in a rural area, you choose to live there, and if you get slower internet, too bad - what I would say to that person is, with better internet in rural areas, the rural areas can carry their weight better, and they can contribute to the economy more effectively. We’re seeing it here in a very rural area where we have a lot of people who are now moving back home and locating here because they like the quality of life here in the constituency of Inverness. They need high-speed internet because they’re working from home.

[11:00 p.m.]

I’m happy to see this happening. One disappointment I had was that a company from Chéticamp, Acadian Communications, bid on a project in East Hants, and I think they had a lower bid, but Bell was chosen instead of them. They tried at the last minute to make a bid on work here more locally in the Chéticamp area. It was right around the deadline. They weren’t given an opportunity to put their case forward. Bell has gotten a lot of the work.

They were a small company in Chéticamp that had about 800 customers. Bell is going to put them out of business now. They were depending on Bell to give them their signal, their internet connection, to give to those 800 customers, and now Bell is going to squeeze them out of business, using their own tax dollars to do so.

I guess I just want to register this tonight as a disappointment I had to see a local Nova Scotian company get abandoned by an otherwise very good initiative to bring better high-speed internet to an area like the Acadian region of Chéticamp.

Minister, I don’t mean to throw this one at you, and I don’t expect you to comment too much, but I want you to know this, that it’s probably going to mean the end of that business. It’s disappointing to see that. I want to stick up for that entrepreneur and, if nothing else, to make sure that it’s put on the record and that people know about it. He has actually moved back out west. He’s seeing the writing on the wall. They’re still in operation, but they’re going to get squeezed out by Bell.

I’ll give you a chance to comment. I know we only have a couple of minutes remaining.

LABI KOUSOULIS: No, thanks for bringing that forward. It’s disappointing to hear that as well. We don’t want to see any of our businesses squeezed out, especially small operators, when our intent is to do something good for the people of Nova Scotia. We don’t want any unintended consequences. If you want to reach out to my office, I’m more than happy to look in and see what we can do as well.

The internet rollout is an initiative which - I truly believe that internet is a right for people and not a luxury. You’re completely right. If we don’t have high-speed internet across the province, housing prices aren’t high, businesses can’t start or thrive in those areas. It’s definitely one where we need this vital service to make sure that our province is moving forward.

I remember early in my career when I was living in Amherst, I had to have a cellphone in my car because a handheld one wouldn’t work. The cellphone service was so poor. If I wanted to make a phone call, I’d have to go out to my car. I lived through having infrastructure that wasn’t to the level that we would want or expect. I know if somebody’s trying to run a business or host a website or even watch TV streams with their children, they should be able to do so. It’s something that is definitely a right in this day and age.

I am pleased that the program - the rollout of this program - is going to help so many. More than happy to work with you for that organization, because we don’t want any unintended consequences.

If there’s no other questions, I’ll do a quick conclusion and read my resolutions.

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Inverness.

ALLAN MACMASTER: Yes, minister, I think we have a couple more questions tomorrow - not too many. I believe the NDP has some more questions as well. We’re going to need you back tomorrow for a little bit, and likely then move into Transportation and Active Transit.

Is there an update that you could give right now for the constituency of Inverness or this region of the province in terms of timelines for high-speed internet rollout?

LABI KOUSOULIS: Not offhand, but I’m more than happy to see what I can gather by tomorrow in terms of the projects that are happening there.

For all Nova Scotians, the map is quite interactive. I have tried it when I have been in rural areas with individuals. You can put your address in and actually see if there’s a project stated for your area. I would encourage anyone to just do a quick Google of Develop Nova Scotia and, ironically, do an internet search for the internet rollout. You’ll be able to put your address in to see if you’re in one of the areas that is going to have enhanced service.

THE CHAIR: Order, please. The time allotted for the consideration of Supply today has elapsed.

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. GEOFF MACLELLAN: Madam Chair, I move that the committee do now rise and report progress and beg leave to sit again.

THE CHAIR: The motion is carried.

The committee will now rise and report its business to the House.

[The committee adjourned at 11:06 p.m.]