HALIFAX, THURSDAY, APRIL 16, 2015

 

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY

 

3:26 P.M.

 

CHAIRMAN

Ms. Margaret Miller

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The Committee of the Whole on Supply will come to order.

 

The honourable Government House Leader.

 

            HON. MICHEL SAMSON: Madam Chairman, would you please call Resolution E16.

 

            Resolution E16 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $167,474,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Municipal Affairs, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: I now invite the Minister of Municipal Affairs to make some opening comments, if he wishes, and to introduce his staff to the members of the committee.

 

            HON. MARK FUREY: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to present Budget Estimates for the Department of Municipal Affairs. I'll be brief in my comments simply to allow my colleagues in the Opposition to maximize their question time. Joining me today is Marianne Hakkert-Lebel, on my right. Marianne is the director of finance for the department, and on my left is Dan McDougall. Dan is the Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs.

 

Our mandate within the department, Madam Chairman, is to promote responsible local governance to support healthy, vibrant and safe communities. Our partners are the province's 52 municipalities and organizations that represent them, such as the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities. Working together we implement sound legislation and programs that support good governance, accountability, and effective planning. With the addition last year of the Emergency Management Office and the Office of the Fire Marshal, we also work to reduce suffering and property loss by providing for timely emergency response and improving fire protection.

 

Our most significant priority will continue to be support for municipalities as they seek to modernize their governance structures. A year ago three of our proud towns had just begun this journey. On April 1^st Springhill became part of Cumberland County and Bridgetown became part of Annapolis County. As you are aware, Madam Chairman, Hantsport is now awaiting the URB's ruling on its application for dissolution.

 

            These are not easy decisions but they were entered into willingly and informed by solid evidence. Municipal Affairs provided independent research through tools such as the Financial Condition Index, giving municipalities the information they need to make good decisions. Government also offered equitable financial support to ensure that no municipality and no taxpayer was disadvantaged.

 

Madam Chairman, there are many other important priorities for Municipal Affairs this coming year. One of the things municipalities asked for in response to the Provincial Municipal Fiscal Review was stability. We are providing that by freezing equalization payments for this year. We will also increase the amount of the Nova Scotia Power grant paid to municipalities with the NSPI assets. These measures will offer some stability as we work toward a viable new partnership agreement with municipalities this year.

 

Madam Chairman, Municipal Affairs has assumed responsibility in the latest budget for the Regional Enterprise Network with funding protected at previous levels. The budget also ensures government support for cost-shared infrastructure projects including a Small Communities Fund agreement and the national regional program under the Building Canada Fund.  

 

            The Flood Risk Infrastructure Investment Program will continue and parameters will be expanded to include flood risk assessment and we will continue to support Nova Scotians who have faced damage from natural disasters, funding the Disaster Financial Assistance program to offset their costs. With Dan's and Marianne's assistance over the next period of time we will endeavour to respond to the questions of my colleagues, and we are very pleased to answer any questions they may have specific to the department's estimates and operations. Thank you, Madam Chairman.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We will begin questioning with the PC caucus.

 

The honourable member for Pictou West.

 

            MS. KARLA MACFARLANE: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman, and I would like to thank the minister and his staff for coming and giving us their time. I know last year the minister spoke for almost an hour with opening statements and there was great information, and I just want to thank him for the great work that he does. He has worked very closely with the Town of Pictou, actually the whole County of Pictou, and is doing wonderful work, so I've also been asked to extend, from my colleagues, councillors, and the Town of Pictou, just how great he's doing along with his staff - so thank you so much.

 

            I will be getting into some constituency questions here shortly, but I do want to start off first with financials. I'm going to open up with stating that in his department, approximately $1.1 million was used in travel - and I realize there's a lot going on with the municipalities in Nova Scotia right now and there are a lot of meetings - I'm just wondering if the minister can give me a little bit of a breakdown, the $1.1 million, was that mostly spent here in Nova Scotia, and what percentage or approximate dollar figure was spent out of the province as well? Thank you.

 

            MR. FUREY: Madam Chairman, I thank my colleague for the question. My colleague has referred to the $1.1 million in travel expenditures. We don't have a breakdown with us of in province and out of province; what we do have is a breakdown of employees' expenditures that identify the $1.1 million, but we will certainly work to secure the information that my colleague has specifically requested.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Thank you very much. I'll look forward to receiving that information. A lot of these financial questions are going to be fairly quick, but I am going to stick with the financials. I see where $25,000 was allocated to the Better Business Bureau of the Maritimes, slated 2013-14. What was exactly this payment for?

 

            MR. FUREY: Madam Chairman, to respond to the member's question, the $25,000 that the member has referenced was an operating grant that was provided under the previous departments when Municipal Affairs and Service Nova Scotia were combined together.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: The Association of Municipal Administrators also received a payment from your department - not a large amount but, as we all know, every penny counts. I'm just wondering, $9,250 was given to them, what was this funding used for?

 

            MR. FUREY: The print is very fine, so bear with me. The amount of money that my colleague has referenced was divided in three separate areas for the Association of Municipal Administrators. The department supports them in their annual Spring conference to the tune of $1,000, the annual Fall conference to the tune of $6,000 and annual renewal fees for the association itself in the amount of $2,000.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I'll make this sort of two questions. The Fall conference, I just want to know, is that the one that is held here in Halifax? I also notice a $31,000 payment to the Department of Agriculture and I'm wondering, what is that for and what is the relationship between the two departments?

 

            MR. FUREY: Specific to the Association of Municipal Administrators and their Fall conference, they actually rotate their conferences annually to give various communities the opportunity to engage and host that group of individuals.

 

            Specific to the grant with the Department of Agriculture, the information I have with me was specific to transition with Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. But I don't have the specifics, and that's additional information that we will source for the member.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Looking at transit services in Nova Scotia, especially in rural areas, there are a lot of difficulties there. I know in Pictou County alone, when I was growing up, there was transit service and we were able to go into the metropolis of New Glasgow and go to the movies and go bowling. That is no longer provided.

 

            I'm just wondering, how much in total funding does the department put into transit services across Nova Scotia annually? Perhaps just to make this question a little bit longer so we are not up and down so often, I'm wondering when the funding is allocated, is there any audit done later with regard to the services provided within that funding? I ask this because I know residents in Windsor are going, I believe, to be left without a service because they can't afford it. I know there are a few questions in there, but I'll allow the minister to speak.

 

            MR. FUREY: The breakdown of funding that was provided for public transit, I will break it down in the following: HRM was $2.1 million - $2 million for argument's sake; the remaining municipalities there was $800,000 to be distributed - and CBRM received $425,000; and Kings County received $375,000; and the remaining $100,000 was distributed throughout 14 or 17 transit programs in other communities. The Strait area has a transit program. Windsor, to the member's question, was part of the Kings program, and that was a municipal decision for them not to participate in Windsor-West Hants community, I believe it was the Town of Windsor.

 

            We will look to see if those circumstances have any impact on the formula specific to Kings County, but that's the breakdown of the money for public transit that the member has requested.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I know there was a lot of information there to find out, so I thank you for that. Is there an actual audit done though to ensure these services are working and that $100,000 that you mentioned that goes to probably more rural areas, would that include in my area part of going to the CHAD bus services?

 

            MR. FUREY: Part of the process is the application for the funding, and in the application individual organizations are required to provide information specific to ridership, the coverage area, and circumstances of the operation. Post disbursement of monies and expenditures, there is no audit that we do within the department, but individual municipalities would do audits at the local level.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: We all know that equalization payments are pretty controversial, everyone's fighting to receive more money, we're all struggling and I mention just in your opening remarks that you were putting a freeze to equalization payments. I'm just wondering, I'd like to have you take the opportunity maybe to just describe how the actual formula works.

 

            MR. FUREY: There are actually two components to the equalization payment - the first is the expenditure need, or the core expenditure of municipalities, and the second piece is their ability to pay, and their ability to pay is based on the strength of their property tax base. In those circumstances if their expenditure need is less than their ability to pay they're able to draw down on the fund, and those monies are distributed based in that manner.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I'm looking at a figure here that was paid to the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce in 2013-14, and it's quite a large sum. I'm just wondering if the minister could provide the background on the amount of $923,000 that was paid to the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce, and what the reasoning was behind it.

 

            MR. FUREY: The expenditures that my colleague has identified are in fact credit card service fees when the two departments were aligned, and that would be a cost associated to Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. We continue to drive the online service delivery model and with that we recognize that there are costs associated to those methods of transaction, and in these circumstances that's what those monies were identified for.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Just sticking to the finances here - I believe there was over $400,000 that was paid out to Atlantic Air Survey in 2014, and I'm just wondering, what does this company do and are they actually located here in Nova Scotia?

 

            MR. FUREY: The expenditures the member has identified are broken down into two areas: the aerial photographic services that geometrics use in the amount of $346,000, and the Nova Scotia topographical database in the amount of $67,000. One of the objectives in these services is to partner with other departments as well as municipalities if and when the need arises, and in these circumstances we often partner with Natural Resources for purposes of their objectives and mandates within their department.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Before I ask my next question, when the minister rises again on this question I'm just wondering, would he confirm if that company is based here in Nova Scotia?

 

            Casino Taxi was paid just about $7,000 by your department - how closely monitored is the use of taxi services in the department, and would any of this bill be used for long distance out-of-town meetings, or just solely within the Province of Nova Scotia?

 

            MR. FUREY: Madam Chairman, I apologize to my colleague for omitting information specific to the previous question. I'm not sure if that company is Nova Scotia- based, I'm drawing the conclusion that they are, but we'll certainly confirm that for the member.

 

            Specific to Casino Taxi - we have a standing contract with Casino Taxi, that is for local services and that would have been an expenditure for both departments, Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Affairs.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I'm going to go back to Atlantic Air Survey for a moment; I'm curious about this company. I do have some acquaintances who are interested in knowing: is this contract contracted out on an annual basis and, if so, how is it tendered, where is it advertised, and how would they be able to submit if they were interested in applying to fulfill this need?

 

            MR. FUREY: I've just been informed by a colleague that Atlantic Air Services is actually based in Dartmouth. The specifics of the question are tied to Service Nova Scotia and we have staff here from Service Nova Scotia, so we'll get that information. I know they're on their texts as we speak.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: That's fine, I will follow up later. The department paid out almost $500,000 to the Nova Scotia's Chief Information Service in 2013-14. What was this for exactly? We're looking at almost $500,000, so if you could just explain to me what this is exactly about and how it's broken down.

 

            MR. FUREY: The $500,000, just to break it down for the member's benefit - it's a service provided by the CIO's office. It's billed back through the department in interdepartmental charges. I'll walk through these and take my time for the benefit of the member. Data communications incur an expenditure of $234,000; software incurs an expense of $217,000, and that's for purchase and maintenance of software; IT hardware, $37,000; the warehousing of data is $5,000; professional services in the amount of $2,000; and staff training in the amount of $1,000.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Madam Chairman, thank you very much to the minister for that breakdown; that's very helpful. The department invested quite heavily with a company I'm not familiar with - David Aplin Group - to the tune of $859,000. I'm curious - once again quite a large amount - I'm wondering what the recruiting was for, were these jobs that were going to be staying in the province, and is this company a Nova Scotia company?

 

            MR. FUREY: The expenditures that are identified here are actually for Service Nova Scotia, and I know it's difficult, given the previous arrangement, that period that preceded April 1, 2014. We'll attempt to identify those areas for the benefit of the member and her colleague who may have similar questions specific to Service Nova Scotia.

 

            The breakdown of that $860,000 - this company I believe to be a Nova Scotia company, provides administration support for the Heating Assistance Rebate Program at a cost of $283,000; Access to Business in the amount of $227,000; the Business Registry Unit in the amount of $139,000; Collection Services in the amount of $93,000; RMV Driver Compliance in the amount of $67,000; Property Tax Rebate for Seniors in the amount of $17,000 - and this is the administration of these services - corporate development $13,000; the Motor Vehicle Administration $8,000; service delivery $6,000; investigations $4,000; the Contact Centre $1,000; and Consumer and Business Policy Unit $1,000.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I want to thank the minister for that detailed answer. I know sometimes some of the questions seem to be overlapping because the departments seem so close together, so I apologize. Certainly the minister should feel free to leave it for later because we will follow up later for certain.

 

            I did notice as well - it's not a large amount - but $5,400 was paid to Fireside Leadership. I'm just wondering, what kind of leadership was provided as a result of this bill, at a time when certainly Nova Scotians are asked to tighten their belts. I know it's not a large amount, but we certainly want to know exactly where every penny is going so perhaps he could provide an answer for that.

 

            MR. FUREY: The amount referenced was used for staff training. I don't have an actual breakdown of what initiatives or what employees would have incurred expenses specific to the $5,400, but we can certainly source that for the member.

 

            What I would like to share with the member is when I first came into the department, for me one of the most important components in finding efficiencies and managing the mandate of the staff and the departments was to address learning and developmental opportunities for our employees, and to enhance their interests and development within the department.

 

I am quite pleased to say that we have a tremendous staff in both Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Affairs. I can tell you it's a great place to go to work every day because people are motivated; they are inspired. I believe it is some of the training initiatives that we've made available to them, recognizing that those costs have to be reasonable, but I think it's safe to say that Nova Scotia taxpayers get a tremendous return on that investment based on the commitment and loyalty of this employee group. I couldn't be more proud to work in that environment than I am as we speak.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I'm not familiar with this company either, Flextrack Incorporated. They were also paid an amount of almost $700,000 and I'm just wondering, would you tell us what that was for?

 

            MR. FUREY: Madam Chairman, the company my colleague has referenced and the amount of money expended was the specific result of shared services and program review. It was a new program that IT professional services provided where we consolidated those needs in one area for the very purpose of finding savings versus individual contracts that would have cost us significantly more.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Is the minister able to help me understand - there was an International Fuel Tax Association, and there was a payment that was made to them as well for $17,537 and I'm just wondering what that would be and what the association would be.

 

            MR. FUREY: Madam Chairman, the amount of money identified is actually annual membership dues for IFTA.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Thank you very much. I am almost finished here with the financials. Another bill that sort of raised a red flag was $136,000 to a company known as G4S Cash Services. I'm wondering what kind of work they do and why there would be an association with G4S Cash Services.

 

            MR. FUREY: For the member's benefit this is, again, a Service Nova Scotia expenditure and it's a cost that Service Nova Scotia incurred to provide secure courier service for picking up cash from all of our Access facilities across the province. So it's that secure courier service that experienced those expenditures.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Madam Chairman, this sort of just came into mind. I know that recently we had a figure that was thrown out in Question Period with regard to, I think it was around $233,000 that was spent in courier services, and I understand that documents have to be sent quickly and so is this $136,000 of security on top of that or is this $136,000 possibly out of the $233,000 that we recognized the other day and spoke about?

 

            MR. FUREY: Madam Chairman, the courier service referenced that came up in Question Period from my colleague's colleague spoke to a cost of, I think in the area of  $222,000 and we actually did some background work on that and determined that there were some minor errors in the calculation - everything is coded and there were some minor errors. The actual courier costs that we identified were $188,500, so I just wanted to correct that for the record in the House. But to the member's question, the $136,000 for this secure courier service is over and above that $188,000.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Madam Chairman, I thank the minister for clarifying that. Looking at the department, I realize it has to lease a number of cars and I believe, I'm just curious, is all leasing done through O'Regan's National Leasing and I'm just wondering, could he give me an approximate amount that was spent with them?

 

            MR. FUREY: The expenditures the member has identified are specific to the lease of 17 vehicles, and those 17 vehicles are attached to both our Compliance and Special Investigation sections as well as Motor Vehicle Administration. With the transition of the RMV component from Service Nova Scotia to Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, those entities are now transferred to TIR. I just wanted to share that with the member.

 

            Also, we're aware of another lease contract with MacPhee where two vehicles are leased in addition to the 17 at O'Regan's.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: The $79,000 that was paid to Crime Stoppers - is this an annual grant and is that disbursed within the whole province, and if you could give me a breakdown of where that actually goes within the province?

 

            MR. FUREY: The expenditure the member has referenced is actually an expenditure that's used for purposes of the anti-smuggling advertising that the member may be familiar with, a number of TV initiatives that are focused on mitigating or eradicating the movement of illegal tobacco products, contraband tobacco products, in the province.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I just want to confirm maybe when the minister has an opportunity to stand up with the next question, could he just confirm, with that last question, if it's an annual cost? And can the minister explain the $7,400 to Office Interiors as well as the over $9,000 to Toshiba Canada, where exactly that went?

 

            MR. FUREY: I missed the second part of the question, but it was Toshiba? Office Interiors, the $7,500 expenditure - I'll round these up to the higher number for convenience - was the purchase of furniture in the amount of $6,000; and photocopier, fax rental and usage in the amount of $1,000. And I don't have the specifics of the furniture purchase. The Toshiba expenditure of $9,000 was the lease of photocopiers and copy charges.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Like so many other government departments, I'm noticing that nearly $1 million was paid out to Telephone Network, I believe it is. I think the bill that was through this particular department was around $900,000 and I'm just wondering if the minister can explain what the department actually uses the Telephone Network for.

 

            MR. FUREY: If I can take the member back to her two previous questions where she had asked for follow-up on the circumstances of the Crime Stoppers expenditure - was it annual? Those expenditures are for purposes of advertising so there is no predetermined annual expenditure, but those would be expenditures that we would experience based on the assessment and need of that advertising given the numbers that we see around the availability of contraband tobacco. So as we speak we're right around that 5 to 10 per cent margin; that's the area that we try to focus on. If there was some shifting in that, we may adjust the expenditures to drive advertising, but it's not an annual expenditure per se in that amount. It could be lower; there may be circumstances that could drive that higher.

 

            The Telephone Network expenditure that the member has referenced is for the complete telecom service within the former Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. At the time, in the area of 850 employees, that would include phone service, mobile devices, and those types of expenditures.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: The Barrington Consulting Group received over $2 million from the department - what kind of consulting work was actually undertaken?

 

            MR. FUREY: I think next year we'll legislate a minimum font of 20. The Barrington Consulting initiative - I want to make sure I have the right document - there are a number of initiatives that the department has undertaken specific to program modernization, red tape reduction, service excellence, those are the areas that Service Nova Scotia has really driven and I often use the phrase that one of our work colleagues shared with me very early in government. She indicated we are an analogue government in a digital world - and what I drew from that was there would be tremendous expense to transition from where we are to where we have to be to stay at pace and compete literally on a global scale.

 

            I'll be specific to these expenditures - $2.5 million to round it off. The Access to Business initiative that we've recently spoken about, the restaurant bundle, the birth bundle - there are a number of initiatives that really are unique and in many ways original - that was a $1.9 million, $2 million expenditure; the Access for Citizens is a $550,000 expenditure, and the Access to Business really is a platform, the portal, for government interaction with business and citizens, so it's the foundation for the Access for Citizens program, but there are some variances that require those types of expenditures for Access for Citizens; the other areas, Business Process Review in the amount of $19,000, and Registry of Joint Stocks in the amount of $9,000, and Vital Statistics, a cost of $3,000.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I'm sure the minister and his team over there will be happy to know that was the end of my financial questions.

 

I think I only have about 9 minutes left, so I'm going to zone in on Pictou County for a moment and what has taken place there. As we all know, we're struggling to find a compromise to have our six different municipalities come together and so right now we have four out of the six that are on board and creating an MOU. I wonder if perhaps the minister can just give me an update on his end and the most recent conversations that he has been having, and perhaps within that if he could entertain whether or not - has there been a transition coordinator specifically put into place for that transaction to take place and, if so, what would be the cost of that transition coordinator?

 

            MR. FUREY: The question the member has asked and the circumstances around the initiative in Pictou County and the memorandum of understanding that four of the municipalities have entered into as we speak - Westville and Trenton have not yet engaged in the formal discussions and participation in the MOU, although there were some prior discussions.

 

            The events as they are in Pictou County are certainly very encouraging. We have a tremendous work relationship with those municipalities, and I should say as well with those municipalities that aren't participating in the memorandum of understanding that work continues; they're showing tremendous leadership in leading that. The Department of Municipal Affairs, under the leadership of the deputy minister, continues to provide support in kind to those municipalities that are pursuing the MOU, and we are encouraged by the work being done in the Pictou County community.

 

            Specific to the transition coordinator - it's an excellent question because every opportunity we get to speak to the discussions around governance structure and governance models is very important, not only for us in the department but 52 municipalities across the province. Our first year in government I had the privilege to travel to each and every municipality, spoke quite openly in our discussions in those circumstances. I can tell you unequivocally that discussions around amalgamation were on the agenda at every one of those meetings and not presented by the Department of Municipal Affairs but actually put on the table by municipalities.

 

Certainly municipalities were quite clear in indicating that they had no interest in amalgamation, but certainly working towards shared services. A number of municipalities that have openly talked about partnerships and the value of those shared services - and in one community, without breaching the confidentiality of those discussions, I had a particular municipal leader who said we have 29 shared services agreements, why can't we take the next step? So that's the type of work that is being done.

 

            Specific to my colleague's question around the transition coordinator and has one been identified for the Pictou County initiative - the short answer is no, there hasn't been. The transition coordinator, based on the program that we have developed in Municipal Affairs, is a stage in the process that would follow a municipality, or municipality's motion at council to pursue dissolution or, in another model, amalgamation. At that point we appoint a transition coordinator to lead that transition. The transition coordinator would share the transition committee and the transition committee is made up of equal representation from those municipalities that would participate in that dissolution or amalgamation.

 

            If I can use the example of Bridgetown, the transition committee was made up of two representatives from each of the municipalities engaged - the former Town of Bridgetown and the Municipality of the District of Annapolis, the chairman obviously, Mr. Allister Surette, and representation from the Department of Municipal Affairs.

 

            In the circumstances of Bridgetown, which was a very efficient process, the expenditure for the transition coordinator was in the amount of $16,000, whereas the transition coordinator in each of the Springhill and the Hantsport initiatives was in the amount of $50,000. The contributing factors as to the difference - we budgeted in each of the three initiatives for $50,000, but in the Bridgetown initiative it was pretty seamless. The work that was done and the efficiencies that were found, and the levels of agreement that were identified very early, mitigated much of that cost.

 

            In short, to my colleague's question, we have not appointed a transition coordinator in Pictou County specific to the MOU and, based on previous models, we would not do that until there was a motion by council to move that governance model in a different direction.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Madam Chairman, I want to thank the minister and his staff for answering my questions. So I'll just wrap it up and I want to ask him, what we're finding in the Town of Pictou, because we are losing so many businesses in our downtown core - and actually this is something a little bit personal too - I don't want to make it personal, but there are a number of people who own buildings where we're residential/commercial, but we're not able to rent out our commercial space because there is no downtown core anymore - nobody wants to open up a business in my space below my residence, so I'm just wondering, could they quickly indicate if there is going to be an opportunity in the future that people can change over to residential because at least we would be able to have some rented out if it was changed over to an apartment?

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Time has elapsed for the PC questioning. Perhaps the minister will be able to answer that question in the next round.

 

The honourable member for Queens-Shelburne.

 

            HON. STERLING BELLIVEAU: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. It's certainly a pleasure to stand today and talk about Municipal Affairs. I can assure you that the nine years I spent at the municipal level will become very important now as I move forward, because actually this is my first time speaking as the critic to the minister's portfolio so I'm encouraged by that. I know the minister opposite - we have similar connections with my hometown or we have some connection there. I want to point out that I have known the minister in his previous life for a number of years.

 

            I also want to point out that there are some other backbenchers or members of the sitting government who have some relationship with Municipal Affairs, so it affects everybody; in fact, it has been said that Municipal Affairs is the closest government to the people. To me, it's simply a pleasure to stand here.

 

            I made a few notes of the minister's opening comments, and he talked about promoting through your department a healthy and safe community. I think that's something that we all strive for. The minister said in his opening statement that he's seeking local support through municipal units. I know, if my memory serves me right, there are 54 units across Nova Scotia.

 

            First of all, I find it somewhat confusing to have different departments and I know the minister has a number of different departments and I find sometimes I have to really pay attention to the title because right now we are talking about Municipal Affairs.

 

            To simplify for myself and some listeners, my understanding is the Department of Municipal Affairs and the minister's role is to simply have a voice at the Cabinet Table, have a voice at the caucus table and bring the issues of Municipal Affairs to the sitting government. That is my understanding and I know there are a number of concerns throughout municipal units across Nova Scotia. I just want to start with that question and hopefully the minister can answer that question for us at the beginning.

 

            MR. FUREY: I'm fortunate actually to be the Minister of Municipal Affairs. In my view - and I believe in the view of our municipal leaders - we have really advanced the issues and concerns of municipalities right across the province.

 

            My colleague is absolutely right - there were 54 municipalities, but as of April 1^st with the dissolution of Springhill and Bridgetown we're now at 52. Of course the Hantsport dissolution is presently before the URB and we anticipate the decision from the URB in the very near future.

 

            I engage our municipal leaders on a number of levels. The UNSM and their leadership, I meet with their executive regularly. We've implemented a number of opportunities - at least four a year. I participate in their Spring workshop and I participate in their Fall AGM. We have what I call an informal armchair every three months and, coming up in the very near future, advocacy days, where we engage the municipal leaders and it gives me an opportunity to listen to the concerns that municipal leaders express, the concerns that we, in the department continue to work on, and work with the municipalities in finding solutions to some of the challenges that they face. To my colleague's question, I certainly believe that I'm in a position to represent the interests of our municipal units.

 

            MR. BELLIVEAU: I don't accuse the minister of reading my notes but he's actually going into my next question here, Madam Chairman.

 

I know that the UNSM is certainly an important platform for the municipal units across Nova Scotia to have; in fact they actually have an annual conference. If my memory serves me right, there was some concern last year when there was an annual conference, as there is a ministers' panel - and I know that I had the opportunity to participate in that several times - and my understanding is that ministers' panel was cancelled for some reason - it may be because the House was in session.

 

I'm going to ask the minister through you, Madam Chairman, the UNSM conference, it is my understanding it is going to be held in White Point Beach in Liverpool somewhere in early May of this year, and I know that was always an interesting platform for municipal units across Nova Scotia to bring the issues forward to ministers and have a ministers' panel and I was wondering, could the minister give us an update on that particular conference, and if the ministers' panel is still functional?

 

            MR. FUREY: Madam Chairman, I appreciate the question because I think it's very important in our efforts to build relationships and maintain those relationships with our municipal colleagues - and I do want to acknowledge my colleague's opening comments when he talked about municipal government being the closest level of government to the people, and that is so true. I had the good fortune over the course of 32 years to work in policing in the province in multiple municipalities, and on many occasions had the opportunity to engage our municipal leaders and elected officials in the areas of public safety and community engagement. That remains important to me in this environment and I'll respond specifically to my colleague's points.

 

The UNSM hosts a Spring and Fall conference. The Spring conference is focused on training and workshops, and the Fall conference is more of policy, greater discussion, a much larger event.

 

            The Spring conference, I'm scheduled to attend again this year at White Point Beach in May and I always take the opportunity to bring greetings, I guess in a formal way, but remain for the duration of the workshops to engage my municipal colleagues in general discussions and sometimes in a social environment - they tend to be most productive - sometimes collectively with full councils, and sometimes individually with mayors, wardens, individual councillors who have a particular initiative or CAOs and administrative leaders as well.

 

My colleague spoke about the most recent UNSM workshop where the ministers' panel was not able to go forward as scheduled and it was, as my colleague alluded to, attendance here in the House was required. It was a last minute set of circumstances that prevented me from attending that ministers' panel. But there's no ministers' panel scheduled in the Spring session and I would anticipate, should I still be around in the Fall, that I will again participate and engage my municipal colleagues in the ministers' panel.

 

            MR. BELLIVEAU: I don't want to rush away from this issue because I know that the discussions - and I've talked with some mayors, wardens, and councillors across Nova Scotia and I want to emphasize the importance of this particular ministers' panel. I don't know the discussions, I haven't been there, I haven't been involved with the UNSM most recently, but to me if there was a concern about the House sitting, and I haven't got exact dates but I believe it's going to be in early May, somewhere around the 5^th or 6^th, or around the 10^th, in that time frame and I know that the House may still be in session, we don't know, but to me there are a lot of questions that are going to be raised - and I'm going to get into them - to me I would say to the minister, are there ongoing discussions of having this panel and having the ministers available for UNSM because it's something I would be interested in taking to my caucus to support. So I'd just like for the minister to kind of expand on that request.

 

            MR. FUREY: I think my colleague has made an excellent point, Madam Chairman. With the support of my colleagues in Opposition if we could recognize and prioritize that period, with the support of my colleagues I can commit to multiple ministers participating in that ministers' panel. One of the challenges we face, obviously, is the role and responsibility of the House, but I can assure my colleague that with the support of the Opposition there would be no reason that the ministers' panel would not take place this Fall, and that would be my priority.

 

            MR. BELLIVEAU: I certainly feel as though I'm making progress here, because I know talking in the municipal units there are certainly important questions out there and they want to have access to elected officials. I certainly will do my part working with our caucus. So we'll move on.

 

I'm trying to lay the groundwork here for some of these very important questions - and I'm going to ask for the minister's assistance on this - I know there was a report card that was done by Municipal Affairs, on all the units across Nova Scotia. I know that some of the municipal units, and I don't want to actually put their name out there in the public forum, but I know that they had some deep concerns about how this report card was established. In fact some of the local mayors in southwestern Nova Scotia, I'll be that generous, said that actually the report card was misleading and in fact these municipal units were actually not in that bad of a financial state.

 

 I know that the minister, Madam Chairman, through you, has commented on that and there seems to be some disagreement between the report card that was established and the perception that's out there in these municipal units. One of the mayors in southwestern Nova Scotia actually said of the report card: "It's misleading to the public." I'm going to ask the minister, will he comment on that report card?

 

MR. FUREY: Again, I think it's critically important and a great opportunity for us to speak about some of the new and creative initiatives that exist in Municipal Affairs, a very transparent, principle-based process that really does engage our stakeholders at the municipal level.

 

            The report card that my colleague is speaking to is often referred to as the FCI or the Financial Condition Index. This is an initiative that was joint between the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities and the Association of Municipal Administrators - the AMA - in partnership working with staff in the Department of Municipal Affairs. So it was designed for, and specifically created by and with municipal units.

 

            As that report card unfolded, and I'm just thinking back to the original announcement of the FCI capture - the 2011-12 numbers or circumstances at the time when we announced it the information was two years dated, and that was a concern to staff in Municipal Affairs, but it was also a concern to municipalities.

 

            We committed, I believe - I'm thinking back now, it would have been February of that year - to updating the FCI to a point that we could provide those financial indicators as recent as the most fiscal year. We've been able to do that through the great work and effort of staff in Municipal Affairs and the co-operation and relationship that we've built with municipalities.

 

            I think the most important part of two components that I'll speak to with the Financial Condition Index, the first is the content within the Financial Condition Index is information that is provided by municipalities through the CAO, it is information that is signed off by the municipal leadership and submitted to the Department of Municipal Affairs. Through that work relationship we depend on municipalities to provide that information and staff simply populate that template, that document, for purposes of securing the data and subsequently distributing that data through the FCI process to all municipalities.

 

            The second piece of that that is important and I want to speak to is the FCI is not the sole decision maker in determining the financial liability of any one municipality. There could be components of the FCI - I'll give you an example: if a particular municipality was focused on debt reduction, they may direct more finances to debt reduction, which would mitigate their ability to create reserves. That really comes down to the decision of the municipality in discussion with our municipal advisors within the department.

 

            Even with the FCI there is a continued ongoing relationship and work between the municipal advisors in the department and municipal staff and elected officials in each of the municipalities. I don't want anyone to think that the Financial Condition Index is the sole determinant factor in determining the financial viability of a municipality. I will be the first to say that it is not. We have a debt affordability model that we use extensively in the dissolution process. We share that information not only with our municipal partners, but our municipal partners have asked us to take that external in public meetings to inform residents of evidence-based, factual circumstances that really allow the elected officials to make decisions in the best interests of their community, and to engage and inform their residents so that they are aware of the process and the components of the process that really allow evidence-based decisions to be made.

 

            In these circumstances I'll use Springhill and Bridgetown as the example - the compilation of that information was rolled up into a letter of intent and submitted as evidence for the Utility and Review Board in their public hearings. And it's that fact-based information, the FCI being one component, which allowed the URB to make the decisions they have.

 

           I do want to say, and I don't want to take up any more time than I have to in responding to my colleague's question, we recognize, and it's with the distribution of the FCI it was not about identifying any one municipality to be stronger or weaker than the other, because there is an interpretation of the FCI and, as I said earlier, if there's greater attention to debt reduction within a municipality than there is to accumulating reserves, there may be a red flag in one indicator, where there may be a green flag in the other.

 

So it's not about identifying the strengths or weaknesses of any one municipality; it is simply one tool in the tool box that allows municipalities to plan for the future, to build business plans based on the indicators that they have identified to us to be important in the administration of their units and their municipalities, and working with our municipal advisors, having those discussions on an ongoing basis so that it's not a surprise when the FCI is issued. But these are circumstances that are simply qualified once a year that really allow municipalities - and I know the communities that my colleague represents and I'm certainly aware of the circumstances that my colleague has referenced - this is one tool that facilitates the discussion and, in some cases, generates additional discussion and work so that municipalities can use the tool to their advantage to ensure that their plans going forward are able to sustain that municipality, and that truly is the objective within the Department of Municipal Affairs.

 

MR. BELLIVEAU: Madam Chairman, just before we move on, during this process about this financial evaluation or report card, some of the mayors and wardens pointed out that the indicators that the minister made reference to may have been just as easy as looking and reviewing a municipal unit, simply seeing what properties are up for sale tax - a very simplistic indicator. They may have improved their ranking in this report card, and they just wanted me to understand that, and I'm glad I had an opportunity to sit down and do that evaluation with them, because in their mind they were much stronger than the initial report card that the minister had them do. One of the indicators that they pointed out was just simply identifying the amount of sale tax properties in that municipal unit.

 

MR. FUREY: Madam Chairman, the circumstance that my colleague has referenced is in fact one of the indicators within the FCI specific to tax receivables outstanding, and when those circumstances are determined, and again it's based on the information that the municipality or the town provides, they're compared to the average in their class, so if it's a town they're compared to the other towns within the province, and if it's a municipality they're compared to municipalities, so there is an average identified and that's what determines the difference whether there is a red, yellow, or green indicator.

 

But there are multiple areas that one would consider, or factors that you would consider in that process, and I'll give you a couple of examples specific to outstanding tax receivables. There may be multiple residential or commercial accounts where taxes are owing or there could be a single commercial entity that's behind in tax payment. Those are all factors that are considered into the FCI and the outcomes that are ultimately shared with municipalities.

 

            MR. BELLIVEAU: I'd like to take the minister and his staff in somewhat of a different direction. I want to, first of all, go back to the minister's opening remarks and I noted here that the commitment or the mandate of the Department of Municipal Affairs is to promote healthy and safe communities. I think we all agree to that. One of the other interesting notes in rural Nova Scotia, and I think there's no argument in this particular House, is that the majority of seniors live in rural Nova Scotia. It's just my observation that there is, in the last year or so of this government's mandate, it appears that the direction is asking seniors to travel greater distances for services. Now, representing the municipality, I would think that's a concern for everyone.

 

            My concern is about privatization of certain services, about automation and are we moving towards online registration for a lot of these services. I know that this is a message that has been echoed at the grassroots, the municipal level, so I'm going to ask the minister to comment on that particular statement.

 

            MR. FUREY: Madam Chairman, I think it's another excellent point that my colleague has identified and, again, an opportunity for me as the minister responsible for the department to speak to this. Some of the reference I believe would be better directed to the Department of Service Nova Scotia, which is scheduled to follow our discussions around municipalities or Municipal Affairs, but I'll certainly respond to my colleague's question.

 

            The objective of our department, Municipal Affairs, to promote healthy, safe communities is a priority. I know that touches on multiple departments, but as my colleague has referenced, he talked about the travel required by some to obtain services. I'll go back to my statement earlier, which was really a significant statement and point that was made to me early in my time in government when we talk about an analogue government in a digital world. We can't continue as a province to isolate individual communities for the purposes of sustainability. We have to work collectively, together as regions, and eliminate barriers that allow municipalities and regions of the province to prosper. The objective behind the shift from an analogue world to a digital world, and kind of an overarching statement to my colleague's question, is quite simply - there are greater opportunities in unity than in division.

 

            That division is subconscious; it's not intentional. Certainly there is pride in one's community and they will aspire to sustain their community as they've known it, but as we've seen with the dissolutions, there is tremendous leadership in the province, not only with those who have pursued the dissolution process but those who are having those discussions, whether it be dissolution or amalgamation.

 

            In those circumstances - and I'm going to cross into Service Nova Scotia for the purposes of answering my colleague's question, but I'll use the Land Registry Offices. There were 18 Land Registry Offices in the province and we've consolidated those services and we've created five centres of excellence. The objective of those five centres of excellence is to continue to provide excellent service to Nova Scotians, but mediums remain for those communities that don't have a centre of excellence and the convenience of their travel when it's convenient for them to attend a centre of excellence in a neighbouring community, or to drop off the materials that they require to engage government or secure services from government, the opportunity to drop off and the opportunities where they're able to utilize online services.

 

            There is rationale behind this, and I know my colleague would be familiar with the priorities of the previous government where the Land Registry initiative actually was administered and led by the previous government. The previous Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Affairs actually presented a bill in this Legislature to change the legislation that would allow land registries to be located at any location in Nova Scotia with an effort to provide more efficient services.

 

I actually have a copy of that legislation here that I'll certainly share with my colleague. I don't know if I'm able to table correspondence in these sessions, but I certainly would be prepared to do that. It was Bill No. 30 in May 2011.

 

To give you a little bit of history, Madam Chairman, of Nova Scotia, 100 years ago every district and county was required to have a Land Registry Office and the legislation that the former minister presented in May 2011 changed that, so that that service could be provided in a more efficient manner. I'll refer to the debate during second reading, if I may, and these would be comments from the previous minister who submitted the legislation, and I'll refer to some of the content of the Hansard from that period - that it makes sense in the future for the department to be able to locate offices outside the county boundaries where they are now required by law to be. Other provinces in Atlantic Canada have far fewer land registry offices than we do. And the minister goes on to say that it may help us to deliver services more efficiently or to improve customer service, we need the flexibility to do that. And that was the basis of the bill that the former minister, under the previous government, had presented.

 

I think that really alluded to the question that my colleague has presented and what I would suggest as a reasonable response, an action of government based on those very circumstances, and I'll share those circumstances with you, Madam Chairman, for the benefit of my colleague. As we speak today 75 per cent of land registry services are done online, 20 per cent are mailed in, and there is 5 per cent who appear in person. That's typically limited to the legal community, surveyors, and real estate, for purposes of property transactions.

 

I will give credit where credit is due, Madam Chairman, it was in fact the previous government who developed that model, it was the previous government who compiled that business plan, and when we came into government I can tell you, Madam Chairman, that was the first presentation that staff shared with me, and I recognize how important it is for us as government to find those efficiencies but continue to provide the same level of service that Nova Scotians have come to expect.

 

            In these circumstances this model of service delivery is doing just that - it is finding efficiencies that have significantly less impact on taxpayers and allows us to continue to provide that service at a significantly reduced cost.

            I know I took more time than I would want to in responding to a question but I think, Madam Chairman, that it is important that we have these discussions and that we collectively, on both sides of this House, recognize how important it is that we all support the objectives of government. Most often I've heard, and many use the Ivany report as kind of the bible of the go forward, it's "now or never", and that resonates with me; I understand that.

 

            I know it's difficult at times when we have different political leanings, and those political leanings identify different priorities, but if we are truly, Madam Chairman, to right this ship and bring financial stability to the province so that we generate surpluses, that we pay down the interest on our debt, a billion dollars a year, some of those monies redirected back into services would make a significant difference in the landscape of Nova Scotia.

 

This is one small example where we find these efficiencies at the municipal level, and I recognize, my colleagues tell me how it impacts their communities, but when we sit and have those discussions my colleagues and colleagues on the opposite side of the House understand that we all have to contribute to that solution and that initiative that staff in Service Nova Scotia have undertaken over the past couple of years - maybe longer than that - in moving this particular example and model forward is really the transformation that we have to see in government if we want to achieve those objectives.

 

I know that my colleague on the opposite side of the House has the same objectives that I do. We may differ on how we get there, but I know that my colleague wants a better Nova Scotia, I know my colleague wants young Nova Scotians to stay, and these are the types of decisions, these are the types of steps that we have to take if we want to achieve that. I think this is a great example of finding efficiencies, recognizing it has impact on municipalities, so I want to jump back to Municipal Affairs, Madam Chairman, after using that example out of Service Nova Scotia, and I will table both these documents for the record.

 

My colleague used the word "privatization" and I want to clarify the objectives and the initiatives that we've undertaken, recognizing that there are multiple layers of government, and to my colleague's opening comments that the municipal level of government is the closest to the people, we're not pursuing privatization, Madam Chairman, we're talking about a partnership - we're talking about a partnership with our municipal units, we're talking about partnerships between government, labour, and industry, and we're talking about opportunities that will allow Nova Scotia to move forward.

 

The area that I think I can speak to with confidence and demonstrate the work that has been done in Municipal Affairs is specific to the relationship that we've established with municipalities. Under the previous government the former memorandum of understanding was eliminated - and I'm not going to go into that because that's not the purpose of my comments. I use those circumstances to set the stage for my following comments. In the absence of the former MOU, in our relationship and work with municipalities they have asked us to re-establish an agreement, and that agreement is called a partnership or partnership document. We've worked with municipalities over the past year and a half, through multiple avenues - the municipal fiscal review, the tax study, the UNSM recommendations that follow each and every annual general meeting, and the town's task force - four significant documents resulting in over 100 recommendations from municipalities to government, to Municipal Affairs.

 

            As we speak, staff continue to work through these recommendations towards this partnership agreement that will formalize relationships and commitments between municipalities and Municipal Affairs on behalf of the provincial government.

 

            The partnership agreement and the discussions that I've had most recently in our municipal leaders' round table - and I know it will be on the agenda for both the advocacy days and quarterly round table that is coming up, and I've shared this with our municipal leaders so there's nothing I'm saying here that I haven't already had the discussion with our municipal leaders - the partnership agreement will be two stages. When we looked at the over 100 recommendations, there are those recommendations that have financial implications and there are recommendations that do not have financial implications.

 

            We are working on phase one, which is the partnership agreement, the formal document that will speak to and identify the non-financial recommendations, and we're making significant progress. I've made a commitment to my municipal colleagues that we hope to have that done on or around the 1^st of April. There is a slight delay, but we continue to work and finalize that. The second piece of that, Madam Chairman, will be phase two, or stage two, to address those recommendations that actually have financial implications. I can tell you that we have been able to incorporate some of those recommendations that have financial implications in the most recent budget.

 

I want to take a moment, to one of my colleague's first points about my responsibility to be the voice of municipalities at the Cabinet Table. In the discussions around municipalities, whether it be the dissolutions, I continue to engage my colleagues at Cabinet and continue to share the progress of those circumstances with the full caucus.

 

            That internal communication is important so that when my colleagues go back to their community, in southwestern Nova Scotia, within the provincial boundaries of my colleague's provincial constituency, that they are armed with the information that enables them to have those discussions with our municipal elected officials. That's important; I might be the face and voice for the department, but each and every one of my colleagues is the face and voice in their community, and we do the best we can to arm them with that information so they can engage in that dialogue.

 

            As the minister, I am able to engage, and in the most recent circumstances not only my Cabinet colleagues but the Finance and Treasury Board Minister, and impress upon my colleagues the importance of that municipal level of government that is closest to the people. In that process, Madam Chairman, and I know my colleagues hate to hear me say it but we were able, through those efforts and through those relationships and through the full support of caucus and Cabinet, to secure additional funding for the Department of Municipal Affairs and the work they do with individual municipalities right across the province.

 

            In order for me to achieve those outcomes for municipalities, I need the co-operation of my Cabinet colleagues and I need the co-operation and support of my caucus. Not only are they armed with the information relative to the decisions in their individual municipalities, but their recognition of the priorities of municipal government and the mandate of the Department of Municipal Affairs in advancing the best interests of municipalities at the Cabinet Table, they have relinquished or cut their budgets so it has allowed the budget in the Department of Municipal Affairs to increase because they recognize the importance of municipal government in the Province of Nova Scotia.

 

So to my colleagues, I think a very important point - best able to represent municipalities at the Cabinet Table, I do that. I've committed to that, I will continue that work, and we will continue to engage our municipal partners, and I will continue to engage my Cabinet colleagues and caucus colleagues in those discussions, so that we all understand the importance of municipal government in Nova Scotia, the importance of finding efficiencies and service delivery in Nova Scotia.

 

            MR. BELLIVEAU: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I hope you were paying attention because I notice the freedom of the minister going back to Service Nova Scotia and I appreciate the comments actually in that. I want to focus on that, exactly who the Minister of Municipal Affairs is, he is a voice at the Cabinet Table for elected government of all Nova Scotia. I want to zero in on just that particular mandate that voice needs to have because what I'm trying to determine here is the impact of this budget and the direction that this government has in the last year, particularly on municipal units.

 

            I want to set a scenario here, Mr. Chairman, through you, that in some of our rural communities we've had closures of courtrooms - they had seven announced in the most recent weeks, days. A number of them, seven across Nova Scotia, are in municipal units, and those municipal units are basically in the final preparations of their budget process for this year. Some that I'm familiar with, the budget impact on that loss of rent for that municipal unit is somewhere between $35,000 and $45,000. That's the general scenario I'm painting here.

 

            We've spent this time trying to build up this relationship that the minister has this voice at the Cabinet Table to bring the concerns of those municipal units that have lost those services across Nova Scotia, and the seniors in our communities, the aging population, and the majority are in rural Nova Scotia and have to travel a greater distance. That's the point that I'm getting to is that that impact on those loss of services, courtrooms, is having a direct effect on our municipal unit. I know that the mayors and wardens, the councillors, are concerned about that loss of revenue, and I know people in this House on all sides have those same concerns, so my direct question to the minister, through you, Mr. Chairman, with the loss of that revenue are the concerns of the municipal units, the MLAs that have the same concerns, is that being brought forward to the Cabinet?

 

            MR. FUREY: I'm just checking my correspondence here. The short answer is yes, but let me elaborate on that, Mr. Chairman. When we look at the impact of the decisions that we've made in this budget, the overall objective is based on the facts of our financial position as a province. That information is well known - a $15 billion debt, $1 billion a year, for argument's sake, in debt services payments or interest, and the need for government, because we experienced annual deficits - although the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board has done an outstanding job in bringing that debt down to less than $100,000 in this budget, and that is a huge accomplishment - a 0.02 increase in health care expenditures estimated in this budget.

 

The people who have been around government much longer than I have been tell me that this is the first time in their experience, and I'm talking about people who have been around government much longer than I have been tell me that is the first time in their experience, and I'm talking about people who have been in government over 35 and 40 years, who have seen that type of stringent control, not only in health care expenditures but in government expenditures. If you remove the labour component from the numbers, we flatlined in expenditures - and that is a significant step for governments going forward.

 

            I want to go back and tie this in to my colleague's question. Every single colleague of mine in caucus has engaged me at various times in various discussions about the impact that these decisions have on their communities. We take those circumstances to Treasury Board - I'm privileged to sit as a member of Treasury Board - and we take those discussions to Cabinet. I want to assure my colleague that these circumstances, as recently as today in our caucus meeting, are shared on a regular basis. I share those concerns with my Cabinet colleagues and I share those concerns with the Finance and Treasury Board   Minister, and I share those concerns with the Premier when I have the opportunity. I can tell my colleague that each and every one of my caucus colleagues understands the reasons why and the need to do so.

 

            Nova Scotians recognize our financial circumstances and they recognize that there's a need to address that, and if we're going to address that we have to address our expenditures. For too long governments of all political stripes have cut cheques for the purposes of securing future political support. Let's be real - that can't continue. When I have discussions in my community specific to ferry fee increases or the inability to build new schools, it's a different discussion than previous governments, of all colours. Why do we have those discussions? Because we have to recognize we cannot continue to do what we've done for too long.

 

It was clearly outlined in the Ivany report. We cannot continue to do what we've done; the status quo is not sustainable. I recognize the environment of this Legislature, that it is the job of my colleagues on the opposite side of the House to challenge government when they make decisions. I can tell you, I'm challenged by my caucus colleagues as much as I'm challenged by my colleagues on the opposite side of the House. We hear them, and we understand.

 

            The same circumstances exist in discussions with my municipal colleagues at the municipal government level from the day I was appointed Minister of Municipal Affairs. I've had the discussion with municipal leaders, there are going to be tough discussions and they are going to be tough decisions. They understand that and most recently in our round table discussions, our armchair discussions, the past president of the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities, in the presence of the Finance and Treasury Board Minister said, don't download any more costs.

 

The Finance and Treasury Board Minister heard that concern. She heard it directly from our municipal leaders because we created the environment at the panels and the armchair discussions and the Advocacy Days where our municipal leaders can engage Cabinet members. In those circumstances, the Finance and Treasury Board Minister heard the pleas of the former president of the Union of the Nova Scotia Municipalities.

 

            The mayor of CBRM - and there have been many public discussions around the relationship between the provincial government and the municipal government in CBRM - and I have worked very closely with the leadership in CBRM and the staff under the deputy's leadership, I worked very closely with CBRM to build those relationships and we've made tough decisions, we've had those tough discussions and we've had those tough decisions at the municipal level. They don't always accept those decisions, and I understand why - because they are challenged in their municipalities for the reasons my colleague has stated. Whether it is courthouses or land registry offices or community services circumstances, we're all impacted. But I want my colleague to realize that my colleagues on this side of the House are equally impacted. You, Mr. Chairman, you have been impacted; we've had those discussions. I've had discussions with my colleagues on the opposite side of the House - respectful discussions, but the opportunity to explain, and we've done that at the municipal level, and we'll continue to do that at the municipal level.

 

            I know my colleague recognizes that there is a strong work relationship between the department and municipalities. What's most important in my reference to CBRM is the leadership has publicly stated they're able to sustain themselves this year, and I'll use one example. Our position - one of the financial recommendations out of the fiscal review that we've embedded in the budget this year, specific to equalization, gives CBRM some latitude, some flexibility, to manage the other financial burdens that they are experiencing, whether it's a loss of those positions or it's the vacancy of properties that were previously leased by the municipality to the provincial government.

 

            We recognize the need to find that balance but, as I said earlier, it's going to take the effort of all of us and we can't isolate one community within one region, or one region within the larger province. This is going to take a partnership - a partnership between the Department of Municipal Affairs on behalf of the provincial government and the UNSM on behalf of their municipal membership to find solutions, to find the balance - and I'll use the words of the previous president of the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities: It just has to be fair. And, Mr. Chairman, that's our objective. That's the objective that we pursue in our work with municipalities, and that's the objective that we pursue as a government in righting the ship and sustaining a future, not for individual municipalities but collectively for the whole province.

 

            MR. BELLIVEAU: Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, I certainly want to pick up on the minister's comments - I'll paraphrase here - but he suggested that the UNSM president requested not to download any more costs to the municipal units. I want to be very respectful here, but I beg to differ because when you take the courthouse from municipal constituents and you lose the revenue of $35,000 to $45,000, that will have an impact on the tax base. And the whole process that we've been working on tonight is to establish that the minister is the voice at the Cabinet Table for these municipal units. So I have some concerns about the questions I raised. I also have some concerns about what we're actually doing here. These municipal units are looking out for leadership and they're looking for the minister to bring their voice to that Cabinet Table and to the elected officials and, thus, the Premier or the government.

 

            It's just interesting that the Mayor of Lunenburg is simply concerned about tax cuts, and where I'm going with this is that the Mayor of Lunenburg in CKBW's - one of their news items this week - she was stated as saying that they hope the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board will reconsider the film tax cut. Where I'm going with that, ladies and gentlemen, is they understand - that mayor understands - the impact that's going to have on that municipal unit and the loss of a tax base. That is something that that message needs to be echoed.

 

            I've spent a number of times here trying to establish that this is actually the mandate of this minister - to make sure that these municipal units do not lose additional revenue and their voice is brought forward. And I'm going to give the remaining portion of my time to the minister and, hopefully, he will address those comments. Thank you.

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister, you have one minute.

           

MR. FUREY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll take that one minute to give one example of our objective through the input of caucus and the discussions at Cabinet, the discussions at Treasury Board and the discussions at Cabinet. I'll use Victoria County as the example. My colleague from Victoria County has been very vocal not only in speaking and expressing the views of her constituents specific to the courthouse, but also specific to the NSPI assets that exist in those communities.

 

            Victoria County, when you balance the scale, is receiving favourable financial attention with those two decisions. Yes, we realize tough decisions are made, and the satellite courthouse there will not continue but the benefits that Victoria County will receive from the NSPI transfers is significant and will offset those expenditures. I use that as one example and to re-emphasize with my colleague, respectfully, and we do have a very respectful relationship, that we recognize the need to balance those circumstances when we have these tough discussions and we make these tough decisions.

 

            MR. CHAIRMAN: My apologies, you had as much time as you'd like to speak on that.

 

The time allotted for the NDP has expired and we'll now revert to the PCs for their questions.

 

The honourable member for Pictou West.

 

            MS. KARLA MACFARLANE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank the minister and his staff for allowing me to continue on. I will take only about 10 minutes. I appreciated the last hour they gave me and I just want to finish up on a couple of questions that related more or less to my constituency.

 

            We were discussing the fact that there are many residential/commercial buildings in the Town of Pictou. What happens is we have residents living upstairs and we have empty commercial spaces down below. Of course what is happening is we can't rent them out. We have a lot of issues going on with trying to keep businesses downtown - they're moving to various areas of the town, and moving up to New Glasgow.

 

            Some of the concerns that have been brought to me were that because of the Municipal Government Act we cannot easily convert the commercial space into residential. I think this would be something that should be considered, something to be changed because at least if we were able to invest and convert the commercial space into apartments we would be able to at least rent them out. We definitely have identified that there is a market for apartments within the Town of Pictou.

 

            I'm just wondering what kind of progress we can make, or if you can shed any light on that because really what's happening is people aren't paying their commercial taxes because they're not even renting out the space. For example, myself, I am paying the commercial tax rate and I don't know if a lot of people are aware of this but when you file your income tax, because your commercial space is not actively bringing in an income, I can't even claim the tax portion that I pay out to the Town of Pictou, because it's not active. So we're really getting hit twice. I'm paying for an empty space that I'll never be able to use, by the looks of it, with the way the economy is. I'm just wondering if you've heard of this issue a lot and if it's something that potentially we can change within the Municipal Government Act that we can convert, rezone and at least change it so that we can accommodate residents.

 

            MR. FUREY: I apologize for not being able to answer the question in my colleague's previous time, but will do so at this time.

 

            The area that my colleague is speaking about, residential/commercial usage is - I won't use the word "prevalent," but certainly exists in a number of municipalities, particularly on their main street or their former business community. That responsibility, although embedded in the Municipal Government Act, falls under the authority of the municipal council as it relates to their land use planning and zoning; that opportunity and that responsibility is within the municipal level of government.

 

            There are a couple of factors obviously they would consider in those discussions, whatever options that they have before them, but their ability to manage conflict between property owners and property usage would all form part of that discussion and inherently that responsibility. If my colleague is suggesting that there may be components of the Municipal Government Act that prohibits or obstructs efficiencies in finding solutions then those are certainly circumstances that we in the department would engage in discussions with those municipal leaders to try and find solutions. In some cases, in other areas of responsibility we've been able to change legislation to find efficiencies.

 

            It is primarily the responsibility of the local municipal unit. The authority for them specific to zoning and planning is embedded in the Municipal Government Act.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I want to thank the minister for his answer. I know a number of people back home will be looking forward to hearing what I found out about that because there are a number of us who are struggling to fill our commercial spaces and we do hope we would be able to invest in renovating and at least be able to convert them into apartments.

 

            One question that I have is with regard to - earlier we were talking about there was a large figure there because of service fees et cetera and it brings me to the question that has been brought up by a number of constituents. If it is an actual decision that's made by the Town of Pictou or if there is something in the MGA that states that when you go in to pay your water bill or your tax bill you cannot use VISA. I know earlier they had indicated that you guys have a lot of service fees from when people pay by VISA.

 

It has been brought up to me and I know our town is struggling to get everyone to pay their taxes, but a number of people said to me - and I can't argue how they want to operate their finances because I'm not sure why they would want to do this, but a lot of them are nervous that maybe they may see their home go up for tax sale. They're saying, I wish I could go in and pay it off on VISA or MasterCard. The Town of Pictou does not allow that and I wonder, is that the Town of Pictou's rule or is it an actual rule from your department?

 

            MR. FUREY: I'll respond as quickly as I can. The circumstances that my colleague speaks to, and we will want to clarify this information, some thought that the VISA discount fees are not permitted when paying property taxes, but we'll confirm that for my colleague - and if they are permitted then the municipality, obviously, recognizing that there are service fees attached to that would have to recoup those fees somewhere else. As I indicated earlier, in a previous discussion, there are significant costs to these user fees and as my colleague would know, there are some businesses that choose not to use VISA because of the fees and there are other businesses that use VISA because they can absorb the fees.

 

            We will confirm for my colleague specific to whether those fees are even permitted when paying property taxes, if VISA usage is permitted when paying property taxes.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: I think we're on the same page. I guess just to give a demonstration, so I go in and I want to pay my taxes on VISA and the Town of Pictou says well we don't use VISA because we'll lose too much of a percentage, which I think they probably would - I did a little investigating and they'll probably lose three to four per cent on each transaction.

 

            My point here is what I'm hearing from people is that the Town of Pictou may not be in the financial situation they are - they would be having more people come and pay their taxes if they could use VISA or MasterCard, and I know even with the fees at the end of the year of what it's going to cost the town they would obviously, first, be able to claim that; as well as I think it would encourage people, not that I think it's the right way necessarily, if you're using your VISA and if you can't pay your taxes in the first place and you try to put it on credit, and I know a lot of people are doing it for one or two reasons because they just want to get it paid off and they're going to end up having the debt over here, and some want to do it because they want to try to attach it to air miles as well.

 

            I think it's something that should be on your radar. I know that there are a lot of people saying well I would go pay my taxes off and I think that would just put the towns in a better financial situation without really being too worried about how they're going to pay off their VISA, but at least they would be able to collect their property taxes.

 

            I just have one more question - and I just want to thank the minister and his staff again for allowing me to come back and ask these questions to finish up - with regard to the water situation in the Town of Pictou, I'm just wondering if perhaps the minister can give us an update on that. I know there has been progress made; I know that there has been funding from his department - we're very grateful for it. But obviously the situation has not been completely corrected and I'm just wondering, could he provide an update?

 

            MR. FUREY: The circumstances around the VISA payment, we want to do a little bit of work in the department to determine what the overarching authority is and is the municipality able to use VISA fees or are they prohibited from doing it, and is it a decision of the municipality not to permit VISA fees because of the service fees that are incurred. We will do some more work in the department and certainly engage my colleague in the very near future to provide that follow-up.

 

            Specific to the water, we've worked very closely with the member for Pictou West in her efforts to address the water problem in Pictou. We have supported that initiative in the past, financially, and we continue to work with the municipality on submissions under the Building Canada Fund. I can assure my colleague that we will continue to work in the best interests of her residents to ensure they get the services they require to sustain their community. We'll make that commitment to my colleague.

 

            MS. MACFARLANE: Madam Chairman, I just want to confirm that that concludes my questions for Municipal Affairs. Thank you so much.

 

            MR. FUREY: I want to thank my colleague for the productive discussions we've been able to engage in today.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E16 stand?

 

            The resolution stands.

 

            At this time we will have a short recess to give the minister the opportunity to change his staff and to stretch his legs. We'll return here in five minutes, at 5:52 p.m.

 

            [5:47 p.m.The committee recessed.]

 

            [5:54 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The Acting Deputy House Leader.

 

            MR. GORDON WILSON: Would you please call Resolution E35.

 

Resolution E35 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $80,995,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of Service Nova Scotia, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: I would now like to invite the Minister of Service Nova Scotia to make some opening remarks and to introduce his staff, if he so wishes.

 

            HON. MARK FUREY: Thank you, Madam Chairman. It's always a pleasure to stand in the Legislature and speak on behalf of my constituents. I guess it is now good evening, and I'm pleased again to appear and speak on behalf of Service Nova Scotia and our budget estimates for the 2015-16 fiscal year. I look forward to engaging in discussion and responding to the questions from my colleagues on the opposite side of the floor.

 

            I will keep my remarks brief, again to allow my colleagues to maximize the time for questions. I'm joined here, Madam Chairman, this evening by the CEO for Service Nova Scotia, Joanne Munro, and the Director of Finance, Marianne Hakkert-Lebel - Marianne's keeping the seat warm here beside me, so we're joined at the hip here.

 

            Just one year ago, Madam Chairman, I announced the creation of Service Nova Scotia with a mandate to deliver a higher level of service to Nova Scotians while working to reduce red tape and achieve regulatory excellence. Service Nova Scotia touches every single Nova Scotian. We have over five million customer interactions annually through our various channels and the programs that we deliver on behalf of government - everything from driver licences to home heating rebates.

 

            To deliver on our mandate, Madam Chairman, we recognize the need to modernize all aspects of our operations in order to put the focus on client service, and that is exactly what we've done with the new structure we put in place this year. The Client Experience branch will modernize all aspects of the client experience and service excellence, while the Program Modernization branch will focus on red tape reduction, modernizing legislation, and regulatory excellence.

 

            Working closely with the Department of Business the Program Modernization branch will also play a role in making our province the most competitive and business- friendly environment for economic growth in Canada. We will do this by reducing red tape and improving Nova Scotia's business climate. Since restructuring, our staff has been working diligently to deliver on our key priorities: service excellence; red tape reduction; program modernization; and regulatory excellence.

 

            The leadership team have also been tasked with identifying efficiencies. Over the coming months they'll look with a critical eye at everything Service Nova Scotia does to determine whether it should stop, continue with changes, or start in a new direction. In addition Service Nova Scotia will have advanced the government's corporate priorities such as balancing the budget by the 2017-18 fiscal year, and helping government achieve ongoing fiscal sustainability. For example the Land Registry Offices will be consolidated into five regional centres of excellence. Only five per cent of land registry transactions take place in person. As such we must continuously adapt and shift resources to where they will best service Nova Scotians.

 

            Service Nova Scotia will play its part in questioning the status quo and making structural changes that will cost less so the government can focus on core responsibilities and achieve savings. I don't want to minimize the role that employees in Service Nova Scotia fulfill each and every day. They are critical to the operations of government and they're critical to Nova Scotians. When I speak of core services I talk about efficiencies and savings so that we can sustain our health care, our education, our support for vulnerable individuals, and our support for seniors.

 

            As I mentioned earlier when I spoke to the Department of Business, government must focus on its core priorities, and I referenced those in both health care and education, supporting seniors and our low-income Nova Scotians.

 

            I want to touch briefly on three of this year's priorities for Service Nova Scotia: first we'll make it easier for our clients to interact with government, and this will be accomplished through red tape reduction and legislative modernization. We will do this by repealing outdated legislation, streamlining regulations, creating mechanisms that will result in regulatory modernization, and focus on our regulators and inspectors on those areas where the risks to society are the greatest - for example, collaborating with law enforcement to keep illegal tobacco off our streets.

 

            Secondly, we will continue to work to make the Government of Nova Scotia a digital service leader that will transform the way government services are delivered. Nova Scotians expect to access services quickly and conveniently. Let's be frank, Madam Chairman, we are an analogue government in a digital world - that phrase rains in my sleep.

 

            We can expect that as our youth become adults they will want the option to fully interact with their government solely via the digital channels. We must be ready now for this change and client demand. This is not to say that all Nova Scotians are comfortable accessing government services online and we'll not leave any Nova Scotian behind. As we build our digital services we will ensure the needs and expectations of our entire population are accommodated. Today Nova Scotians can request birth, marriage, and death certificates, pay fines, and do many other government transactions online.

 

            We've made great progress, Madam Chairman, however we need to continue to increase our suite of online services to meet the growing demand for the service delivery channel. This year we will launch several new ebundles, including the restaurant and accommodations industry sector bundle which will make it easier, faster, and more convenient for businesses to start or expand a restaurant or accommodation business. This work represents the first time a bundle of services focused on a specific industry sector will be delivered online, in a one-stop-shop capacity accessible to business clients, at their convenience.

 

            We will continue to take this sector-by-sector approach as we roll out additional bundles, including one for the convenience store industry. From a citizen's perspective, Madam Chairman, one of our key priorities will be developing online applications for hunting and fishing licences. This investment in the digital channel will not only enable us to provide better services to our clients but will ensure that the tax dollars entrusted to us are spent in a responsible and a strategic manner.

 

            We are doing good work now in the department, Madam Chairman, but it's time to raise the bar and strive for excellence. We will also develop a culture that puts Nova Scotians' needs first when we plan our service delivery. We're aiming to give citizens and businesses a better, more convenient experience. There is huge opportunity to shift government's organizational culture. Going forward we are building a client-centred, collaborative, innovative and integrated culture. It's about making things simpler for citizens and businesses. It is our commitment to continuous improvement. As we progress we will continually adapt and improve to better serve the needs of our clients.

 

            As minister I work closely with Ms. Munro and her team. We have a mandate to ensure that government makes it easier for Nova Scotians to interact with government and that everything we do aligns with the provincial government's overarching direction and priorities.

 

            We are ready to take this work to the next level. I can tell you, Madam Chairman, the restructure of the department, the Service Nova Scotia worksite, and the energy and enthusiasm that I see on a daily basis when I engage our employees, it's very engaging, it's inspiring, and I can tell you that it is a pleasure to go to work every day.

 

            Madam Chairman, it's a privilege for me to serve as Minister of Service Nova Scotia. I want to thank my team who serve Nova Scotians on a daily basis, while supporting the competitiveness of our business community.

 

With that I'll conclude my comments and welcome questions from my colleagues.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Inverness.

 

            MR. ALLAN MACMASTER: Thank you, Madam Chairman, I appreciate the minister's comments, "an analogue department living in a digital world." I've been hearing that vinyl records are making a comeback, so I don't lose hope.

 

            There have been a lot of changes happening. I know we had the department at the Public Accounts Committee not too long ago and I know there's a lot of work being done to make the services offered by the department more user-friendly for people who are living in the digital world, so it's good to see that the efforts are being made.

 

            Madam Chairman, the first question I would like to ask is just something I noticed on the Summary Page, 21.28. It was the line that just jumped out at me - Strategy and Corporate Services is a significantly reduced budget item for this coming year, and I wonder if the minister can explain what is happening there. Thank you.

 

            MR. FUREY: I'll provide the details for my colleague and certainly take my time as he'll probably want to make some notes.

 

The reduction equates to a little over $17 million. There are a number of components that make up that reduction, and I'll refer to those specifically. The transfer of Information Technology, 45 positions, and the operations have gone to Internal Services - that's a reduction of $7.7 million; the transfer of the Geomatics Info Services, 50 positions and those operations also to Internal Services - $6.2 million; the transfer of Project Management, nine positions and those operations to Internal Services - $880,000; the transfer of the Architecture Info Management, eight positions and those operations to Internal Services - $754,000; and transfer of nine Finance and Treasury Board positions and those operations to ISD in the amount of $467,000.

 

            There is an additional savings as a result as in the amortization - that equates to $350,000; transfer of Senior Project Executive to Client Experience - $220,000; transfer of Corporate Development, which equates to 1.7 positions is $140,000; reduction in office rentals - $157,000; reduction in costs associated to a partnership with the Government of Trinidad and Tobago in the amount of $100,000; reduction in professional services of $92,000; and other miscellaneous operating reductions of $13,000. So it was really a transfer of those significant resources to Internal Services Department.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Thank you, minister, for clarifying that. My next question - I know not too long ago there was a summary of departmental writeoffs published. The Department of Service Nova Scotia was about $115,000. It's not a large item, obviously, in the terms of the budget, but it was for non-sufficient funds cheques. I'm just curious to see if there are measures being taken to try to reduce those costs, and I'll let the minister comment.

 

            I know that in the Broten tax report, Recommendation 1.21 was to better coordinate debt collection across government departments. This is perhaps one of the smaller examples, but it's still $115,000 and perhaps the minister could offer some comment on if there is some action being taken to help reduce those lost funds to the government.

 

            MR. FUREY: I think this is a very important question. We've had some pretty significant discussion in the department and I've actually taken the discussion consistent with the member's - the intent of his question to Cabinet and I've had the discussion there.

 

            For the benefit of the member, I'll just break down the more significant writeoffs within that total amount. The amount that my colleague has referenced is $115,000. There is one particular line item - about $53,000 in unpaid provincial sales tax on boats and vehicles, that could be through dishonoured cheques or other inefficiencies; $34,000 in dishonoured cheques for Registry of Motor Vehicle fees; and for argument's sake, $17,500 in dishonoured cheques for Nova Scotia Business Registry. Those are the more significant; there are three or four other smaller items that are there.

 

            This caught my attention, I'm sure, because it's consistently or it's above the most recent writeoff amounts that we experienced. In these circumstances I remember the number to be somewhere in the area of $30,000 in previous years and that's a small figure, but when we're talking about taxpayers' dollars, the Premier reminds me often, no number is too small to find savings, accumulatively there are benefits.

 

            There was a one-time writeoff this year in the amount of $81,000 and it was due to a couple of contributing factors: $17,000 in a one-time writeoff to old Nova Scotia Business Registry accounts dating back to 2001 that had little or no historical backup; $37,000 in collections writeoff for sand store sales tax; and $27,000 Wadden Transportation, their MV fleet went out of business. So those were one-time writeoffs that really drove that dollar figure up above the norm that we saw within Service Nova Scotia.

 

            If we remove the one-time writeoff of $81,000 and we think of that, for argument sake the $30,000 or the $35,000 figure, when you consider the sheer number of transactions that we do within the department those writeoffs would be reasonable in the normal routine of business, but as I've indicated to the CEO the importance of finding mechanisms to generate recovery, not only within our department but across government so the discussion I've taken to Cabinet, and the discussion I've had with the CEO as we work forward is to staff that department to its maximum.

 

The research and work that we've done indicates that each positon generates about $500,000 in recovery, so I think my colleague would agree that appropriate staffing of those positions would be a benefit to Nova Scotia and that's the discussion we're having, that's the discussion I've had at Cabinet, and that's the discussion we'll continue as we work to find greater efficiencies in recoveries of these writeoffs right across government.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I know the other departments involved in the writeoffs for the past year the total was just over $12 million, so I appreciate the minister's comments that every dollar counts and as we see across government the figure is much, much larger. The minister has mentioned that they are going to ensure that people, I guess in each department, are responsible for collections, those positions are filled and there is active effort being made by each department to go after sums. Can the minister offer if that is sort of the answer to the Broten recommendation, a better coordinated debt collection across government departments? Perhaps it is, I'll let the minister comment.

 

            MR. FUREY: Absolutely, Madam Chairman, and I again want to recognize the member's question and the importance of it. I do want to provide some clarity in the event I may have misrepresented the objective and the method to get there. It's not that there are other resources in other departments, we retain that collections component. As a matter of fact, in program review, I'm fortunate to sit at Treasury Board, I was very strong in retaining that responsibility within our department, so when the transfers were made to Internal Services we kept that and the discussions that have followed, cognizant of the overall writeoff of $12 million, is to be very aggressive in the staffing of those positons and to maximize our efforts and outcomes in addressing the largest portion of that $12 million that we're possibly able to recover through the Collections Services division.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I think the minister had mentioned that each position yields about $500,000 in collections. The next question I'll ask is on - and I think of a department like Service Nova Scotia where there are so many transactions and I think about the importance of understanding the costs of transactions, I know the Broten report had mentioned that when in-person services are delivered the cost is about $28 per transaction, and online transactions can be as low as 13 cents. I do know that not all costs are perhaps known in government. I often think, well if we don't know the cost of something, it's hard for us to see if perhaps it could be delivered more affordably, the goal being to make service fees more affordable for Nova Scotians.

 

            I know one of the recommendations in the Broten report was to complete a cost analysis on all government services for which a fee is charged. Is there some activity happening in the Service Nova Scotia Department to do an analysis on all services for which a fee is charged to determine a number of things, I guess - to make sure that enough fee is being charged to cover the cost of the service but also as a starting point for perhaps reducing the cost of services for Nova Scotians?

 

            MR. FUREY: Two responses to my colleague's question. Is there ongoing? Not a detailed analysis of the cost of delivering services. We don't have that capacity within the present platforms to do a cost analysis transaction by transaction.

 

            One of the primary objectives in reorganizing the department recently is to drive program efficiencies and that is a responsibility of each of the executive directors in their present roles. Part of their deep dive in their area of responsibility will be to drill down and find those areas of opportunity where we can determine and find those efficiencies so that the cost of delivering those services continues to be reduced.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Madam Chairman, just to clarify - so there's no overall effort to go on service by service to document the costs for each service? I'll let the minister answer.

 

            MR. FUREY: The point of the member's question is that we don't have an overall method to determine the costs. It's something that we certainly wish we had but, as we speak, we don't have that ability. In the absence of that, it is the strategy and responsibility of the executive directors to find those, to do those cost analyses in their new roles leading those individual departments.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I look forward to development on that. I'd like to move to the issue of red tape. I know I've been tasked with being the critic for red tape reduction, so with respect to Service Nova Scotia, I can think of an example recently in Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal that we brought to the attention of the department where cutting red tape by simplifying and reducing unnecessary processes can actually also not only save perhaps time and money for people applying for, and in the example that I was talking about, an extraordinary move permit, when they're moving large pieces of equipment on the highway. So it's saving potentially time and money for people who are trying to move large pieces of equipment that costs thousands of dollars per hour, if they're waiting for a permit, you know, it's a cost to their company.

 

            Not only is it saving them money but the potential is there to save the government money because if there are processes that are outdated or processes that are requiring a lot of human resource but yet there is perhaps no reason for some of the activity to be happening anyway. For example if a move is being made on a route and they're coming back in three weeks over the same route well perhaps it's not necessary to make them apply again when they know within a set frame period of time they're going to be doing the exact same thing in three weeks' time, there's really no need to go and evaluate to see if the overpasses are high enough to accommodate the height of the vehicle being moved because the overpasses are not going to change in three weeks. So I just give that as one example of how this could actually be a way to save government money.

 

            One of the initiatives, perhaps the biggest one that I've seen so far is the move to have Nova Scotia and New Brunswick work together on cutting red tape. I know in the Broten report she had referenced the New West Partnership Trade Agreement where some of the western provinces got together to reduce their red tape. Have we considered looking at what they've done and perhaps saving ourselves the time and effort to see the best processes that they were able to come up with out West to see if they might work here to perhaps speed up the intent of reducing red tape here in Nova Scotia and perhaps for the rest, for New Brunswick as well, but also other provinces in Atlantic Canada?

 

            MR. FUREY: I'm just looking for a specific piece of paper here because I made note of the some of the initiatives that are ongoing that will speak to my colleague's comments and question. It's interesting because this is one of the objectives of the regulatory and service effect in this office which is the initiative that my colleague has referenced, falls under the new Department of Business, so I'm just going to step in that space for a moment but recognize the correlation between the objectives within Service Nova Scotia and the close working relationship that will be undertaken in this specific area.

 

            One of the things that we'll do, and we're in that transition stage, so if my colleague can bear with me for a moment I'll share that with him and I'll loop into this piece. With the evolution of the creation of the Department of Business on the 9^th of April I had the opportunity on this past Monday to meet with the acting deputy minister and the staff and we've identified a 15-day transition period to prioritize the outstanding and ongoing files from the former department facilitating the continuity of that work.

 

            The next 30 to 45 days will be in completing the structure of the Department of Business and the Office of Regulatory and Service Effectiveness. That Office of Regulatory and Service Effectiveness will be eight FTEs from our department working with resources from New Brunswick. So there will be two co-CEOs, one representing New Brunswick, one representing Nova Scotia, and then there will be parallel colleagues in that structure.

 

            In the establishment of that work site and that environment, obviously we're going to be looking to best practices in the work that has been undertaken in other provinces. My colleague referenced a particular initiative amongst the western provinces, those are the types of things that we will look to, analyze the outcomes that they've experienced and how can we align those initiatives to our environment here in Atlantic Canada, recognizing that it won't be tattooed but certainly some resemblance and opportunity there.

 

            There are a couple of other initiatives that are on the way as well. At the last Atlantic Canada's Premiers' Conference there was an agreement, from a reasonable perspective, to address red tape, so this ties into the intent of my colleague's question. That really talks about cross-border opportunities and the mitigation of existing regulations that prohibit, literally, trade amongst our provinces.

 

On a larger scale I've had discussions with Premier Wynne's office in Ontario. The last meeting of the Federation of Premiers, Premier Wynne was tasked to addressing internal trade restrictions across the country. I share this with my colleague because there are a number of initiatives that are focused on reducing red tape, both at the national level, the regional level, and the provincial level. Service Nova Scotia has some of that responsibility, at the provincial level they will work very closely with the Department of Business and the new regulatory office will drive both the regional and the national initiatives to meet the objective's intent that we believe is important to drive the economy of Nova Scotia and Atlantic Canada.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Madam Chairman, just sticking with the transportation theme and regulation the minister has mentioned about working with other provinces, and I think that's good. I once wrote a letter to the then-chairman of the Provincial Transportation Ministers in Quebec and identified, after meeting with the trucking Association of Nova Scotia about how the rules are different in every province and it gets to the point of ridiculousness when a truck might be travelling across the country having to, especially when they're transporting loads that perhaps aren't in a typical reefer truck or what have you, the requirements are different in each province and the amount of time that's spent waiting to get permits in each province and changing the configuration even of the lights of the truck to match going through the next province. I never did get a response and I was disappointed because I thought it was a very relevant point. Perhaps I'll dig out that letter and send it to the current chairman of the Provincial Transportation Ministers.

 

            I can appreciate the minister's comments. These are things that we have to be thinking about in government and I hope that the minister is successful in his efforts to reduce red tape.

 

The next question I have and, minister, I can appreciate your staff with businesses is no longer here and if you're comfortable answering I do have a couple of questions on red tape, and I would've gotten them in before there but I guess with all the changes in the departmental structures I was thinking I would ask them at this point. Provided you're comfortable answering, I will ask a couple more.

 

            Thinking about how to track the reduction of red tape, I know in the past, going back to 2005, there was something called the better regulation initiative which had an administrative reduction tracking system. It had been done away with in 2010 but at that point in 2010 it had claimed a 20 per cent reduction on the administration burden for business at that point. Are you looking at a tracking system that perhaps might restore that system or something like it to help track the administrative burden and the reduction of it for business?

 

            MR. FUREY: One of the objectives - and I think my colleague's question is closer aligned to the Department of Business than it is Service Nova Scotia. I spoke on Tuesday specific to tourism and the mandate and the objectives, the business plan, and the measurements that are incorporated into the Nova Scotia Tourism Association initiatives. I want to tie that back to the Ivany report, the oneNS Commission, and the economic development goals that have been laid out in that report. I'll just use the objectives for tourism and the targets that have been set there. The long-term objective is to attain those targets and we would see an annual measurement of the progress specific to that one goal.

 

            We would want to apply a similar methodology within Service Nova Scotia specific to red tape and it's not about being driven by a report card, it's about identifying achievable goals over a period of time to attain that objective. We know in discussions with those in the industry, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Atlantic Convenience Stores Association whom we engage with on a regular basis, the red tape imposes an annual cost of $119 million on small business, and we realize that we have to reduce those costs and the objective within Service Nova Scotia at the provincial level is to do just that.

 

            There's work being done, I would like to see it aligned with the same methodology in our response to the Ivany report and those goals around economic development.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I think I'm going to avoid that question because I think it's maybe more of an environment question but it had to do with the talk of shifting the cost of - well, perhaps I will ask it and if you feel like answering, minister, you can, but it is red tape-related and that is in the case of recycling fees.

 

            People in the small business community are concerned about having to pay taxes, they would say three times - once paying recycling fees as a business owner, twice paying property taxes as both a business owner and a property owner personally, and now a third time if there's a move to shift to some type of a tax on materials, as in packaging. When a product is sold to a Nova Scotian if there's a packaging associated with that product, the business will then become responsible for the cost to either recycle or have that product disposed of in some other form.

 

            I know it's a concern of business in the province; they feel this is red tape. I raise it as a concern, and I'm going to let you comment. If you don't have too much to say, I'm going to be okay with that because it may be more of a question for environment, but it is considered red tape by the business community, so I will let you offer comments.

 

            MR. FUREY: The subject matter that my colleague is speaking to is commonly referred to as extended producer responsibility and it is primarily within the Department of Environment, but I've been part of a number of discussions both with the Minister of Environment and industry as well as municipalities because there are differing interpretations of the impact of extended producer responsibility.

 

            I'm certainly aware of how the business community sees this as an additional cost to them. I've been part of discussions with the Minister of Environment who is also familiar with the impact on business, and I remind both the Minister of Environment and staff of Municipal Affairs to be conscious of the circumstances around extended producer responsibility and the impact they have not only on businesses but municipalities, and our need, our objective to find a balance so that type of legislation has minimal impact and those impacted are able to manage.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Madam Chairman, within the Department of Service Nova Scotia, have there been any successes in reducing red tape?

 

            MR. FUREY: Madam Chairman, I mentioned in earlier discussions the Access to Business initiative and Access for Citizens initiative and discussions that both myself and the Minister of Natural Resources took part in this past week around red tape reduction. There are a couple of examples that I will share with my colleague that really are the best examples of the ability to have red tape reduction and the impact that it has on industry. And the one that jumps right out at me is the restaurant and accommodations bundle. The workup with that initiative was about engaging stakeholders, and the staff in the department who led that has developed tremendous work relationships with industry and business and have engaged them in the design and the progression of that application.

 

 It's really a one-stop-shop, one portal entry into government - distribution of information within, and one system back out. There are various stages of that bundle, but the feedback that we're getting from the restaurant food services industry that were part of that has been very favourable and, I may be off with some of the numbers but I think we have over 40,000 businesses registered within that initiative as we speak.

 

            The most recent - and I know staff is excited - just this past week when I met with staff from Natural Resources, the minister and I, a joint initiative, to move all of our hunting licences and fishing licences online, it's the third largest number of transactions that we do in government that demonstrates, and for me the largest number of transactions in Lunenburg County, really demonstrates the hunting, fishing, angler community and the efficiencies that they have asked us to find so that they are able to do these things with little to no impact, efficiencies that really allow them ease of service. So that affects not only individuals but it has a very efficient effect on business as well, so we're excited about that.

 

Probably the two best examples that I can share with you - I had a chance yesterday to speak briefly with my colleague and I've extended my colleague the opportunity to literally come into the department and we would love to sit down with him and share the excitement and enthusiasm of the staff in the department and some of the initiatives that we're undertaking. I can tell you it's a great place to be, the work that's being done and the excitement that they bring to the workplace around these opportunities is significant, and I know my colleague will appreciate and value that opportunity.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Madam Chairman, I certainly saw some of that energy on display at the recent Public Accounts Committee meeting and I've seen, actually, they were tabling documents that showed how the process of all the many, many different approvals you need, I think in that case it was to start a new restaurant, and it looked like an electronics diagram for an automobile - not that I would know how that works either. It was amazing what people go through, but it's good to see that there is an effort being made to simplify it. I will take the minister up on his offer at some point when things settle down, perhaps after the Legislature.

 

            I think perhaps the easiest way to measure these things is the satisfactory comments that you hear from business and from the public. Does it get to a point of even - and perhaps this is putting too fine a point on it - by even timing the length of time it takes to fill out information. If there's a process that somebody has to go through, how many minutes does it take to get something done? I have another question, but I'll let you answer that one.

 

            MR. FUREY: Madam Chairman, as we speak, there's not a mechanism that captures that information, but the department and staff are working towards that objective and I'll give one example. If you're physically attending one of the Access Centres for the purpose of getting a driver's licence, from the time that you walk into the facility, you wait in line and engage the service provider and leave - we've all had that experience, and the ability to do that from my home knowing that my stickers will be mailed to me. I can't quantify those circumstances as we speak, but I think it's a great example of those types of measurements that would really determine our success in achieving a level of red tape reduction going forward. So that's certainly the objective. I know this is one area that staff are excited to reap the benefits of their work. They are very driven, they're outcome driven and I know that that's the focus that they have. Certainly a great opportunity.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Thank you. I know in the Broten report, Recommendation 2.3, there was a recommendation that departments would have a zero net increase in regulatory burden measured against a baseline to be established. I guess the other thing I think about, we don't want to turn this into an academic exercise where we're spending a lot of time trying to document and track things. Certainly tracking it to a point I think is important and I understand the principle of this, that if you make a commitment to a zero net increase in regulatory burden, it almost forces you to have to get rid of some regulations if you're going to introduce new ones. I understand that can't always work, we need regulations for certain things, you can't just eliminate regulations. Has any thought been given to that Recommendation, 2.3, that there be a zero net increase in regulatory burden in Service Nova Scotia?

 

            MR. FUREY: One of the primary, I guess maybe say the primary responsibility of the new Regulatory and Service Effectiveness Office is to implement the regulatory recommendations within the regulatory tax review that Ms. Broten had conducted. Those responsibilities will be tasked to that new office over the next number of weeks. Earlier I laid out a timeline for the transition of the new Department of Business, the first 15 days dealing with the priorities of ongoing files and the continuity of that work, 30 to 45 days to staff those positions, so I've committed to having that process completed by July 1^st and then the Office of Regulatory and Service Effectiveness moving on the recommendations of the Broten report. It will be the primary focus of that group.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Might I ask how many minutes I have remaining?

 

MADAM CHAIRMAN: You have until 7:03 p.m.

 

MR. MACMASTER: Until 7:03 p.m., okay. I think I will move on, because I'm a little worried I might run out of time on some of the other questions here.

 

            One of the things we found out about with the budget is that the Land Registry Offices are going to be closing in 13 locations. We've heard some concerns from people who use the Land Registry Offices in those rural areas of the province. One of the questions that arose was where are the records that are being kept in those locations now, where will they be kept in the future? Also, if they're no longer located locally, has there been consideration given to the cost for people who are using those offices now and having perhaps to courier documents back and forth to a more central location?

 

            MR. FUREY: Madam Chairman, a little bit of a history lesson again for the benefit of the member, and for all in the Legislature. I mentioned earlier in response to questions from my colleague from Queens-Shelburne about the history of land registry and 100 years ago every county and district required a Land Registry Office. Legislation was advanced in 2011 that changed that, but there was a modernization over a number of years that began in 2005 where mandatory electronic submission for most land registration documents was introduced, and the digitalization of all those documents.

 

            So we've had, in the land registry environment, storage of hard product that is also online and that is what has enabled us to transition the Land Registry Office to an online service delivery model. I spoke earlier about the percentages, 70 to 75 per cent are online services, 20 per cent are mail or courier, and about 5 per cent - just shy of 5 per cent - are foot traffic to individual sites. The group that we understand has concerns, and we've had some contact with, is the legal community, surveyor community, and the real estate community.

 

            The other thing that I've asked of the CEO and I've spoken with managers in the field where those professional services may be challenged by this change or the inability to physically attend as they've had in the past, we've made drop-offs available at all of the Access facilities in Nova Scotia, so that will continue to all those in Pictou County, as an example, to do their drop-off at the Stellarton Access facility. In those areas where the professions may not have computer access or need training or support to transition I've asked the CEO to have our managers at those locations provide training to staff within those professional entities so that we can close that gap further and that we are in fact continuing to meet the needs of that five per cent that would attend in person, or would have attended in person.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: I appreciate the minister's answer and things moving to the online world. Will electronic submissions be set up in advance of any closures? I get the impression from your answer that some of that already exists, but I know there was a question that where these offices are closing, if there is activity there, is there any activity that is in those offices now that once they're closed you still can't send in an electronic submission to do this business?

 

            MR. FUREY: Yes, the system itself now is electronic, that's what has facilitated that high online usage and we believe in time we will be able to achieve 95 per cent online service. The closures for those communities, the online availability will still be available at Access sites, it is our intention to have electronic capacity there for the general public. As I indicated, in the absence of technical skills the ability to drop off at any one of our Access sites for purposes of forwarding and having that work processed.

 

            So those are built into the new strategy and those were really the driving factors behind our ability to modernize that service delivery and create the five centres of excellence, recognizing that geography will necessitate the convenience of the largest percentage of our population so those options are available to them.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Minister, you had mentioned publicly - I'm going to switch topics now - about putting out an RFP for the services that Service Nova Scotia now provides. Can you give us an update on if there has been any further move on that, if you've had any discussion with - I know it has been done in other provinces where services previously offered by the government for something like Service Nova Scotia now offer through a private entity - can you give us an update if you're moving ahead with that and if you've talked to other provinces?

 

            MR. FUREY: Yes, we have, we've embarked upon exploratory work, preliminary work, in trying to find efficiencies across government. One of the areas that we've looked at is models that have been implemented in other provinces - I'll use Manitoba as the example because it's the best example for comparisons with Nova Scotia. Our populations are slightly different, we're 900,000 and they are 1.2 million, basically the same land mass, geography, there are tremendous consistencies.

 

            We have travelled to Ontario, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan, and we've engaged both industry and government in those areas where they've modernized those programs. We've come to realize in those discussions that there are models of alternate service delivery options available to government that really creates a partnership, a partnership that has been advantageous for government, for labour, and for industry.

 

            We've embarked on that journey at the preliminary stage. We're encouraged by those options and opportunities and continuing with that exploratory work as we speak, but we have not drafted or issued an RFP for those services. That would be premature at this point.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Have you had any idea of how much money might be saved if you did take this direction?

 

            MR. FUREY: To my colleague's question, this is where I just want to take a moment to explain the service delivery options. It's actually not about cost savings; it's about cost avoidance. One of the components, we recognize that some of our platforms are outdated and with the cost of technology today and some of the costs that we talked about earlier today, in the technology world it gets very expensive. There are options and opportunities for alternative service delivery to provide those inherent needs and services to government, and in those circumstances it actually creates cost avoidance. I've asked within the department for one particular initiative to be put on hold that has - if memory serves me correctly - a $5.6 million cost to government to update that platform. An alternate service delivery model would negate that expenditure and in the models that we've looked at actually generate revenue for the province.

 

            So it is about cost avoidance. I think the other piece that is critically important here, and it is the first question I've asked when I've engaged industry and service providers is the human resource component, the people component, and here is the reality in the alternative service delivery model that service provider requires those resources to continue to provide the service. So in the work we've undertaken that has been recognized - and when I talk about a partnership because there are those who use the word privatization - this is not about privatization. We retain ownership of the data - only government in negotiations with any alternative service delivery provider would we negotiate any component of what we own. We retain regulatory and policy components, we retain ownership of the data, that would all be part of future subsequent discussions should government choose to pursue those options.

 

            I share that information with my colleague and certainly I'm prepared to answer any additional questions on that subject matter.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Inverness, with 30 seconds.

 

            MR. MACMASTER: Very quickly, I think I'm hearing that any employees would continue with the new entity. Can you offer a quick comment on that and with respect to collective agreements in place?

 

            MR. FUREY: I'll just go back to my previous comments around the partnership and that would include government, labour and industry. The example that I will share is the Manitoba example and the transition of their land registry program to an alternative service delivery provider. In those circumstances the staff who worked in that environment in government transitioned to the alternative service delivery provider and in those circumstances they retained all of the rights and privileges that were negotiated within government, those rights and privileges transferred to their new work environment in the alternative service delivery provider. In those circumstances a clause where they had the opportunity to revert to government within the first two years of that transition and, if memory serves me correct, in the Manitoba example 97 per cent of staff transitioned and remained in the alternative service delivery work environment.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: The time has elapsed for the Progressive Conservative Party. We'll now move to the NDP.

 

The honourable member for Queens-Shelburne.

 

            HON. STERLING BELLIVEAU: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman, and I'm going to ask for your guidance. By my understanding I have roughly 30 minutes left and allow two minutes for the minister to wrap up, so I'll ask for your supervision in paying attention to our time.

 

            Madam Chairman, certainly in the next few minutes here I want to - to me there is a consistent theme going on here and I want to try to establish this in the next few minutes here. To me I watched this government over the last 18 months and I really believe that there is a cumulative effect that's happening, especially in rural Nova Scotia. I spent a lifetime on the water and if you have a body of water - and I hope everybody can visualize this - you just drop one small stone in the centre of that body of water and it will create a ripple effect that seems like it will never stop - and this last six months the announcements about losing services in rural Nova Scotia have never stopped. That's a great analogy on how I believe this government has rural Nova Scotia in their crosshairs.

 

            I've been very patient and I talked about Municipal Affairs and we talked about that and now we're talking about Service Nova Scotia and we've seen a lot of these services, in the last six months especially, being diminished in rural Nova Scotia. We've seen the closures of visitor information centres and Community Services, provincial parks, land registration and the list goes on. This is something the minister needs to take into consideration because it is having a cumulative effect on our rural communities.

 

            Before I sat down I asked for the minister to engage in this discussion here tonight. I know one of the headlines tomorrow morning that is going to be in our local Halifax paper - we're going to see the closing down of Farmer Clem's Garden Centres, several of them across Nova Scotia, from rural Nova Scotia. The announcements keep on going, rural communities in Nova Scotia are under attack, and now is the time to have this discussion right here and we need to have an answer from the minister, is rural Nova Scotia in the crosshairs of this government?

 

            MR. FUREY: The suggestion by my colleague is so far from the truth - absolutely not. I said it earlier and I'll repeat it here, every region of the province is impacted by our fiscal situation. Every region of the province, as government we're asking every region to contribute to the solution. We can't continue to spend to find solutions - there's no money to spend.

 

            So when I talk about rural Nova Scotia, rural Nova Scotia is not in the crosshairs. I represent a rural riding and when I speak to Nova Scotians in my riding, they understand the fiscal climate of the province, and they know the status quo is not sustainable. I went back to my constituency last night to an event involving 250 people and I engaged as many people as I could in that environment. I was the last person to leave the school; I walked out with the high school principal, and every discussion I had last night was, stay the course, we have to right this ship, we cannot afford to buy our way out of the hole - we can't do that.

 

            I know in principle our strategies differ from my colleague's political leaning. I understand that, but we cannot continue to write cheques to prop up business. The Ivany report has made it very clear and the business community has made it very clear - get out of the way of business, we ask you as government to create the climate, let us drive economic development, let us drive our industries across Nova Scotia - rural or urban.

 

            To my colleague's point, I looked at a document today, a discussion we had in caucus, of the 64 positions where there were layoffs, 51 of those here in HRM. For my colleague to suggest that this government has a crosshair on rural Nova Scotia could not be further from the truth. What we've tried to do is to create a level playing field, to create a balance between rural and urban Nova Scotia, between rural and urban residents and we're asking rural and urban residents to contribute to the solution, recognizing that there's no pot of money anywhere to fix the solution, as some might suggest.

 

It's critically important, critically important. If we're going to work together in this Legislature as some have suggested, let's walk the talk. I've seen people wave the Ivany report - well one of the most important components of the Ivany report is that we put political affiliations aside and solve this problem that we, as Nova Scotians, have inherited.

 

This government will not take the easy way of writing cheques to solve those problems. We can't do that. Fifteen billion dollars in debt; $1 billion a year in interest payments on that debt - if we could take a portion of that interest payment and reinvest it in Nova Scotia, we wouldn't have to raise ferry fees, we wouldn't have to raise service fees, we wouldn't have to raise any one of 1,400 fees across the province. We would have the surplus and the revenues to invest in programs to sustain our health care sector, to sustain and drive our education, and to support Nova Scotians in the communities where they live. (Applause)

 

            I said it earlier, I know my colleague's objective is the same as mine, it's how we get there. If we're going to genuinely, in this Legislature, work together then we all have to understand we can't afford to write cheques to solve problems. We have to find efficiencies where services are duplicated and triplicated, we have to find solutions together and it doesn't matter if it's my colleague in Pictou West or my colleague in Queens-Shelburne, we've demonstrated, and I've demonstrated personally in my departments, both in Municipal Affairs and Service Nova Scotia, how important it is to engage with our colleagues to solve the problems in their communities, and we will continue to do that.

            My colleague spoke earlier about Municipal Affairs and the relationships and the impact of our government decisions in this budget, it's all-inclusive. We have to embark on that journey. I've talked for a year and half with my municipal colleagues, we've had tough discussions, we're making tough decisions, but our municipal colleagues are listening and they're partnering in those arrangements because they recognize they may have to give a little in the short term to find solutions for the long term. If we don't adopt that strategy, if we don't collectively, in this Legislature adopt that strategy, it doesn't matter who is in government because we won't fix the problem. The Premier has committed that this government will find that solution, but he's asking all Nova Scotians to be part of that journey.

 

            I gave an example earlier, specific to Victoria County - yes, their satellite courthouse is closed. If you look at the frequency of use, it's not being used. On the other hand, we've implemented one of the recommendations of the Municipal Fiscal Review specific to equalization and, in those circumstances, the Municipality of the County of Victoria will come out with additional revenues to help them through these difficult times. We recognize these decisions are difficult, we recognize that they touch every Nova Scotian; and I deal with it in my constituency.

 

Madam Chairman, it is critically important that if we are going to right this ship, get us on the right path, find solutions together, drive a balanced budget, look to the future for surplus, mitigate the expenses in servicing our debt, and reinvest that money in programs and services, the core services that Nova Scotians have asked us to deliver - education, health care, support to our vulnerable sectors and support to our seniors, we can't do it alone.

 

            We're asking one and all, whether they sit in a chair in this House or whether they occupy individual chairs or homes or residences or businesses across the province, we're asking everybody to contribute, recognizing that there is going to be some pain. I've lived in this province now for over 32 years and I've seen Nova Scotians struggle and I've seen them persevere and I've seen them survive. I think the best example of that, whether you are talking about municipal government or whether you're talking about industry, and you're talking about communities that have been impacted, there is no better example than the region of Queens.

 

Before anyone was thinking about amalgamation they did it upon their own fruition. They pursued it because they saw it as a better future for their community. Twenty years later their tax rate remains at the same level it was when they amalgamated. They've recently experienced the circumstances of the closure of Bowater. That community hasn't given up; that community has reinvested hard work, commitment, and pain, and, Madam Chairman, that community is surviving. That community will sustain itself. Yes, they engaged government but they're not asking government for financial help, they're finding solutions in their community. It takes good leadership; it takes a commitment of all involved - government and private citizens, individual business owners, tourists, travellers, seasonal residents who see the strength of that community.

            To suggest that rural Nova Scotia is in the crosshairs of this government is not the case. We're simply asking everybody to contribute. As I said earlier, I know my colleague, and my colleagues on the other side of the House, have the same objective, we just have a different way of getting there. Well, Nova Scotians have told us how they want us to get there. We're acting on behalf of Nova Scotians and this government will deliver.

 

            MR. BELLIVEAU: Madam Chairman, I made note of the minister's acknowledgement that he went to one of his community events last night and there were a number of people there encouraging him for whatever. I also noticed yesterday, while I was in this House, one of the largest protests that I have seen in my nine years of occupying this seat in this Legislature. They were upset with the government's direction, they were upset, and to me, this is a cumulative effect, that they're concerned about the loss of jobs concerning the film tax cuts. To me, that has to be acknowledged, so everything is not rosy when you go out in your home constituency.

 

            If you were to go out with those people, like I did yesterday, you would hear their concerns. What I raised is the cumulative effect that we've seen in the last year. It's repeated on almost a daily basis. We see lack of services, especially in rural Nova Scotia. This is why I'm standing on my feet here to bring that voice to this floor. What we're asking here, the minister is trying to get the seniors in rural Nova Scotia to endorse the direction of this government, and the problem is when I go to these constituencies and when I go to those socials, I get a different feedback. That feedback is going to be resonated on this floor tonight.

 

            When you close seven courthouses across Nova Scotia in rural Nova Scotia and you're asking seniors to travel two hours for that service in the justice system, it's not fair. When you looked outside this Legislature yesterday and when you walked out there you heard the disbelief that you don't want our youth to leave this province. That is a fact. That is what is going on in our province, and to duck and run and say that I've gone back to my constituency and gone to a social and I have the support, you're not getting a true picture of what's going on across Nova Scotia.

 

When you close visitor information centres and when you close Community Services, and when you put in provincial parks an R2D2 machine in there and ask it to be the ambassador for Nova Scotia, people are saying we want those jobs to stay in our community. When you ask seniors to travel for these services, and when you ask people who have medical issues and looking for a kidney dialysis machine to travel two hours or an hour for that service in the dead of winter in a snowstorm, it has to stop. People demand and expect those same services in rural Nova Scotia and when you see the cumulative effect, or this theme that keeps playing out, it is evident to me that this is the direction that this government wants to go, so now is the time to stand here and say that we do not accept it.

 

            Madam Chairman, through you, it will be interesting for the minister to address - he went to a social last night in his constituency, and I'll end on this; why didn't he go out and meet with the people who surrounded this House yesterday during one of the largest protests that made national news, who didn't want the Film Tax Credit cut? And they know how much effect it's going to have on rural communities. I can go on and on and on about the millions of dollars that are going to be taken out of this province, and our youth is going to leave, and that was the message here yesterday.

 

            So I'll end on this and give the minister an opportunity to say he went to the social in his community and got one message, and I want to know if he went outside yesterday he would get a different message.

 

            MR. FUREY: Madam Chairman, how much time do I have?

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: We are ending at 7:34 p.m., exactly.

 

            MR. FUREY: Thank you, Madam Chairman, I just want to touch on a couple of things that my colleague has presented. I went back to my constituency last night because my constituents expect me to continue to be present in the community in spite of the roles that I am fortunate to fulfill in this House. The message that I received from my constituents, who represent the broad community - and a large population of them were seniors - their advice to me was continue the course, we know we have to right the ship.

 

            Madam Chairman, on Easter Monday when the residents of the LaHave community gathered to protest the fee increase to the LaHave ferry, I met with those protesters and the leaders of that group that morning at 11:00 a.m. When those protesters walked to the ferry to initiate their protest I walked with them, and when they arrived at the ferry I stood there with them. I'm not intimidated by my community; I'm not intimidated by crowds, I've been there. I've been on the wharves when people are protesting, when fishermen are protesting, and my colleague knows the very circumstances I'm talking about - 5,000 angry fishermen on a wharf and I'm on the waterside, and I have to talk my way off that wharf. I've been there.

 

            I want to touch on a couple of points because it's one thing to go out amongst a group and be disingenuous with a political objective. It's another thing, Madam Chairman, to engage people in a genuine way to discuss the challenges and the issues and, short of a chequebook, don't make promises you can't keep.

 

            It is about building relationships. I understand the challenges that the film industry and the creative industry face, and that's why I engage them, that's why I talk to them. I understand the challenges they're facing, but it's important that they understand the challenges that we as a government face and if we don't engage them - I don't have to do it and politically grandstand, I can do it one-on-one, I can do it at a coffee shop, I can do it at the school in my community, and I can do it at the LaHave ferry because I understand, I've been there. I know what it means to engage our community.

 

            My colleague uses the words "cumulative effect." Before I go there, let me speak about access to the justice system because my colleague referenced the closure of courts. We've closed satellite courts that are not being utilized; it's an inefficient service and there is a reason and rationale why we've made those decisions. I recognize, again, that politically my colleague won't acknowledge that, but here is the reality, Madam Chairman. I had a very engaging discussion today about the access to the justice system, I understand that too. I understand how important that is to rural Nova Scotia because the same clients we see in Community Services and the Departments of Justice, and Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, and other areas of government, we see in the justice system.

 

            It's based on poverty; it's based on lack of support. We understand that, but more importantly we want to find solutions. I can do it - I'll use police terminology - in a covert way; we don't have to grandstand, we don't have to be seen to be standing in front of a camera. A tremendous amount of work gets done behind the scenes. That is the essence to relationships and I don't care if it's in government, policing, your community, in conflict, you can engage, you can de-escalate but you have to build a reputation, you have to build trust and you can only do it by being transparent and honest. When we engage Nova Scotians, we have to have the tough discussions, we have to be prepared to make the tough decisions. (Interruption)

 

            I hear my colleague heckling there - I would challenge her any day on the definition of trust and the ability to walk that talk. In my responsibility as the Minister of Municipal Affairs, I've engaged municipalities where there was significant conflict, they didn't trust government, they wouldn't engage government. Those circumstances have changed. Why? Because we reach out to them, we listen and we understand and the relationship that we have today, this government, this Legislature with our municipal colleagues at the municipal government level, they have shared that with me. The media has recognized it, the relationship has never been better with our municipal colleagues than it is right now.

 

            They're facing similar challenges, but they're not screaming and hollering. They disagree with government at times but we sit down and we talk about the issue, we talk about the challenge together as partners. I know it's difficult when we have political indifference to come together and support one another in one primary cause - to fix the problems, to talk about solutions, and the only way you can do that is to understand what the problems are.

 

            My colleague talked about the lack of services in rural Nova Scotia. There's one reason why there is a lack of services in rural Nova Scotia, there's one reason that's driving these very circumstances that we face today - the fiscal position we find ourselves in has been created by past governments of all political stripes who prepared themselves to cut a cheque and answer no questions, and this Premier and this government has said that will not continue.

 

            When your expenses exceed your revenues, how do you manage that? Let me make it simple - everyone in this room, everyone in this province understands our needs and challenges in managing a household budget. When your expenses exceed your revenues you make changes within your household. If you can't' afford a new car, you buy a used car; if you can't afford a used car, you walk or you use public transit where it's available. You make adjustments to sustain yourself through the tough times, through those short periods. That's human nature. Some struggle more than the rest of us, but it's a great analogy, Madam Chairman, to best understand the challenges we face together - and we're not going to solve them by potshots or media opportunities or protests and believing that our presence in the middle of a protest is going to solve the problem. It doesn't; I've been there.

 

            Madam Chairman, my colleague spoke about cumulative effect, those were his words, the "cumulative effect." Well I want to tell my colleague what cumulative effect is and why we're in the position we're in today as a result of my colleague and his previous government. Labour alone, my colleague and his government, and him, a minister of Cabinet, at the decision-making table where he suggested I should speak for the voice of Nova Scotians, which I do, they embedded in the fiscal equation of Nova Scotia a $700 million labour commitment that we could not afford to pay.

 

            Madam Chairman, the former Minister of Finance identified that and it has been the topic of discussion from a book that was written that clearly outlines the mistakes that have been made in the past. We cannot spend money we don't have and that's why we are where we are.

 

            There is one solution and everybody has to contribute to it and it is about finding savings, it is about promoting opportunities, it is about making Nova Scotia a better place to live and it is about rural Nova Scotia and our urban communities of Halifax and CBRM.

 

            I'll conclude my comments quite simply and I'll say it again - I know my colleague and other colleagues on the other side of the House want the same outcomes as we do in government, and we differ politically. It's how we get there, and we believe the solutions that we are presenting and the challenge and the pain that included in our budget is absolutely necessary to right this ship.

 

            Madam Chairman, with that I would like to present the resolution . . .

 

            MR. BELLIVEAU: I still have questions here.

 

            HON. MICHEL SAMSON: You still have questions. Sure, keep talking Mark.

 

            MR. FUREY: Madam Chairman, the opportunities that face us are going to be challenging and the opportunities that we have really generate the interest of many individuals whether they be private sector, public sector, or government, and in the discussions I've had with some of my colleagues on the opposite side of the House they agree in principle and we may differ on how we get there, but the objective is to get there.

 

            Madam Chairman, I simply want to reinforce how important our ability to engage people in a genuine way will move the province forward. I know my colleague may take offence to some of my comments but the reality is we have to make changes, we cannot sustain the status quo. It has been made very clear, there is no bottomless pit, those days are over, there is no blank cheque, we have to fix . . .

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The time allotted for the consideration of Supply today has elapsed.

 

            The honourable Government House Leader.

 

            HON. MICHEL SAMSON: Madam Chairman, I move that the committee do now rise and report progress to the House.

 

            MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is it agreed?

 

It is agreed.

 

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

 

The motion is carried.

 

The committee will now rise and report its business to the House.

 

            [The committee adjourned at 7:34 p.m.]