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HALIFAX, MONDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2009
COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY
3:25 P.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Gordon Gosse
MR. CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, the Committee of the Whole House on Supply will now be called to order.
The honourable Government House Leader.
HON. FRANK CORBETT: Mr. Chairman, I would like to call Resolution E4.
Resolution E4 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $1,285,147,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Education, pursuant to the Estimate.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Education, to make some opening remarks and, if she so wishes, she can introduce the staff accompanying her today.
HON. MARILYN MORE: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to thank the members present for this opportunity to rise and describe the work of the Department of Education and our budget plans for the coming year. Before I begin, I would like to introduce Dennis Cochrane, Deputy Minister of the Department of Education, on my left, and Darrell Youden, Senior Executive Director of Corporate Services, who will be assisting me in answering your questions today.
Before I get into the specifics of our plan for this year, I would like to take a few moments to thank the staff of the Department of Education, our elected school board members, our board staff, our teachers and school administrators, our school advisory councils, parents, school volunteers and all our other partners who, together, make public education work in this province.
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I'd also like to thank all those at our universities and colleges, whose teaching efforts, research and innovation give Nova Scotia its world-class reputation as a learning province. Mr. Chairman, I have been Minister of Education for only a little more than three months, but in the short time I have been in this position I have been very impressed with the work and the solid, ongoing commitment all our partners have shown to the students and children and youth in this province. Since June I have met with all eight of our regional school boards, the Council of Nova Scotia University Presidents, and with senior officials at the Nova Scotia Community College. It has been a time-consuming exercise, but an extremely valuable introduction to my scope of responsibilities as minister.
The good people I had the honour to meet and talk with universally impressed me with their commitment and dedication to making Nova Scotia's education system the best it can possibly be for all, from our youngest Primary students to the young adults about to start their professional careers.
Mr. Chairman, it's no secret that the budget before this House in very large part is a legacy of the former Progressive Conservative Government. The budget is substantially the same budget introduced last May - in fact there are only four changes between the draft May budget and this, for Education, and I think it might be easiest if I outlined these four changes up front so we all know exactly where they are.
The first is a reduction of $300,000 in the operational costs budgeted for two major IT projects, the Student Information System and the SAP upgrade. These are simply funds not spent because of the delay in getting approvals for the capital portions of these projects contained in the draft May budget and this one.
The second difference is the addition of $180,000 to our school capital amortization budget, which was adjusted to reflect changes in delivery schedules. We have also added $1.8 million to our Nova Scotia Community College grant amount to cover a portion of the additional costs identified by the college and not covered in the draft May budget.
[3:30 p.m.]
Finally, we have brought about an orderly conclusion to the current MOU - memorandum of understanding - with universities, signed by the previous government, with a lump sum payout of the agreement booked this year. This will enable us to regularize the accounting around our contributions to universities, starting in the 2011-12 budget year.
This budget, while not perfect, enables us to maintain and, in some cases, build upon a number of successful public school programs. Our investments will also help make post-secondary education more affordable and accessible to students.
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Mr. Chairman, the reality is we are in a time of fiscal restraint. We are facing a massive deficit and we must walk a delicate line. We must preserve what we value most in education and, at the same time, live within our means. That being said, the Department of Education is committed to fulfilling its mandate of providing excellence in education and training for both personal fulfillment of those we educate and for a productive, prosperous society.
Mr. Chairman, I am pleased that we are able to increase our investment in public education by $29 million this fiscal year, an increase of 2.3 per cent. That means that the budgets for all the school boards will increase at a time when enrolment is declining by about 3 per cent per year.
This year we will have about 130,000 students attending public school in Nova Scotia; next year we expect enrolment to drop by another 3,000 students or more, and to decline by 27,000 by 2020. I want to add here that in 2020 we expect to have the same number of students in Nova Scotia as we did in 1910. Declining enrolment and the changing demographic of our province represents one of the greatest challenges to the public school system - it will impact how we deliver our programs into the future and how we develop our school construction priorities, to name just two.
I want the members of this House to be aware of this issue - the greying of our province not only has dramatic implications for schools, but also for the workplace, our health care system, and our economy. The point I want to make is that as our citizenry ages and we have fewer children in school, I do not want us to lose sight of the importance of education as a priority. That said, I am confident though that we will find strategies so that we can continue to effectively deliver high-quality education to all students.
Although this Education budget is modest, it is focused and, as I mentioned earlier, provides increased funding. We now spend an average $9,728 per pupil on public education in Nova Scotia, an increase of 5.5 per cent. It's important to note that school boards have been working with these budget amounts since last Spring. As I mentioned earlier, I've met with all eight school boards and while they would all be pleased to have more funds available, as would I, they are doing a skilful job of managing within the budgets they have received.
This budget also includes modest increases in a couple of key areas where we are seeing particular success, notably literacy and math mentors, and the Options and Opportunities Program, often referred to as O2 - a highly popular program that keeps students attracted to hands-on learning and engaged in their education while preparing them for success in the labour market and guaranteeing their admission in the Nova Scotia Community College once they graduate.
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This year we are increasing funding for O2 by $759,000, to $7.1 million, allowing us to expand the program. It is now offered in Grade 10 in 44 schools, Grade 11 in 43 schools, and Grade 12 in 33 schools. There are 1,620 students in the program - enrolment has quadrupled since it was first introduced in 2006-07. Over the coming years our goal is to see this program expanded into Grade 9, a particularly critical age for keeping kids interested in school.
This year's budget contains a small increase in funding for the Department of Education's mentor program, which has been instrumental in helping teachers improve the success rates of students in both math and literacy.
A moment ago I referenced the need to make tough choices in these times of fiscal restraint. This year's Education budget also contains reductions compared to last year - we have had to defer spending for text books, CDs and other learning materials for one year in order to save $5 million; we've also cancelled some special education pilots for a savings of $924,000; our literacy improvement program was cut by $1.4 million, leaving $1.4 million still in the program; and the class size cap for Grade 4 was increased from a maximum of 28 students per class to a maximum of 30, for a saving of $440,000.
These were not easy decisions, of course. No one likes to see reductions in Education, but because of the difficult financial situation we face in this province we had to decrease funding in certain targeted areas. This, I might add, was done with considerable thought and care and in consultation with the school boards, which helped us identify cuts that would cause the least pain possible.
The Department of Education takes its role as educator very seriously. We remain committed to helping all of our children succeed in school. Quoting from this year's Business Plan, the Department of Education is working "to develop an environment where education and training are valued, achievement is celebrated, and learners are provided with opportunities and tools for rewarding and successful learning experiences."
Accountability to students, parents, school, taxpayers, and others, remains a priority for us as we work to provide all Nova Scotians, regardless of where they live, with a wealth of opportunities for learning throughout their lifetimes.
Mr. Chairman, it is also our responsibility to provide safe, healthy and appropriate learning environments for our children. The health and safety of students and staff is our highest priority, and we have been working closely with Health Promotion and Protection and the Medical Officer of Health and school boards to ensure that we are prepared for H1N1.
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Through our Health Promoting Schools initiative, which is a partnership with the Department of Health Promotion and Protection, we are working to improve the health and well-being of our students, because students who are healthy are better able to learn.
I am also proud to state that we have fully implemented our food and nutrition policy for Nova Scotia public schools and that the majority of schools have made excellent progress towards meeting our policy objective. That commitment to health also extends to our school construction program. The Department of Education has an extensive construction and renovation plan for our schools - this year we will spend $142.6 million upgrading and building schools, and to ensure students get to school in modern, safe transportation we will buy 63 new buses at a cost of $5.5 million this year.
We also have a duty to set a good example for all students and Nova Scotia families in the area of environmental stewardship, and we are doing that in a number of ways - let me outline three. The buses we intend to buy will be fuel-efficient and low in greenhouse gas emissions; second, all eight of our school boards are participating in a program to retrofit schools with more energy-efficient lighting; and third, we design and build all of our schools to exacting leadership and energy and environmental design program standards so that they use less energy and water. Those are just three examples, and we intend to continue to do our part to reduce climate change.
Mr. Chairman, there is no doubt that, as for any society, our young people are quite literally our future. They bring new perspectives, fresh ideas, and youthful energy. We want more young people to settle in the province and build a life here, and there is much in Nova Scotia to offer young people - we have a diversified economy that is becoming more and more knowledge-based; we have vibrant communities in which to live and raise a family; and we are a learning province with many opportunities for educational growth.
The Department of Education has undertaken a number of initiatives to make Nova Scotia even more attractive, to help young people build a life here. We have developed a world-class university and community college system in which students of all ages can pursue almost any vocation they desire; indeed, our universities are destinations for students from across North America and around the world, and over 20 per cent of the non-Nova Scotian students who attend our universities choose to stay here after graduation. To support the university system, we are investing $455.8 million this year.
As I pointed out earlier, we will also pay almost our entire obligation under the memorandum of understanding for funding with universities. This gives the universities financial flexibility, and it also enables us to clear up some of the previous government's business - now we can approach university funding with a clean slate starting in 2011-12. This year's budget will result in no tuition increase for any university student in Nova Scotia - coupled with the $1,022 payment from the Nova Scotia University Student Bursary Trust, tuition fees for Nova Scotia students will actually decline by $261 this year.
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We are committed to making a post-secondary education as affordable as possible. As I've noted, tuition is getting cheaper and our student assistance office has grant and loan programs that make going to university or college more accessible. When our young people walk into our university and college campuses they expect modern learning environments to go with the ivy-covered architecture, therefore we are investing, in conjunction with the federal government and the institutions themselves, in 24 infrastructure projects that will upgrade campuses across Nova Scotia
Each community college campus and 10 universities will be part of the $123 million program. This is in addition to our ongoing capital projects at the college. For example, at Dalhousie University a $27 million project will modernize the Life Sciences building which houses a number of science faculties and where sophisticated research in marine sciences takes place. At the Nova Scotia Community College, Waterfront Campus, the wonderful Centre for the Built Environment will be a showcase of green technology when it opens next year. The $34 million gem, with its innovative design and dramatic features, is the cornerstone of a shift at the college to incorporate overarching environmental themes into its entire curriculum.
In many ways, the Nova Scotia Community College is one of the best examples of how to create a prosperous future for Nova Scotia and Nova Scotians. The NSCC talks with businesses to identify which skills are needed now. The college looks ahead to see what skills will be important in years to come, and the result is a place where our young people gather to learn the skills they need to have for a promising future.
[3:45 p.m.]
We are pleased to support the Nova Scotia Community College with an increased budget of $116.1 million. We are also committed to having the college grow so that we can continue to build a skilled workforce in Nova Scotia.
Mr. Chairman, our public libraries are the information centres of our communities; in fact we have 320,000 active public library users in Nova Scotia - an incredible number, given our population. Our investment in regional libraries will increase by $1 million this year - that's an 8 per cent increase for a total of $13.3 million. We continue to work toward the goal of stable and sustainable funding for our public libraries - in fact in the next few weeks I will be tabling a report on library funding completed under the previous government, which recommends a level of ongoing funding and core service standards.
Unfortunately, in these times of fiscal restraint, government is not in a position to sign a formal funding agreement; however, I have committed to my library partners to use the task force recommendations as the starting point for my advocacy on their behalf amongst my Cabinet colleagues at budget time.
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There are also many innovative and collaborative projects underway between the province and our various library partners under Libraries Nova Scotia. I look forward to watching those projects progress over the coming months. Our libraries are also collaborating with other areas of government. For example, they worked to get a collection of books, periodicals and on-line resources to help the volunteer sector into each of our province's libraries - the resources cover topics such as fundraising, risk management, media relations and many more.
So, Mr. Chairman, public schools, universities, colleges and libraries, I am indeed honoured to lead a department overseeing such a powerhouse of learning opportunities. Whatever challenges we face in the future, we are better equipped because of the richness of our educational offerings and their accessibility to all Nova Scotians.
Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to share the highlights of the Department of Education's financial plan for the rest of the fiscal year and look forward to answering any questions my colleagues have. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
The honourable member for Bedford-Birch Cove.
MS. KELLY REGAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to let her know that I am prepared, in case either one of us has an asthma attack today, as I understand she is not feeling all that well.
First of all, I'd just like to say I think it a little hypocritical to recognize teachers for their hard work on World Teachers Day when you're not bargaining in good faith with our community college. Why would you offer an agreement that would be over already? There were two options presented to the teachers - one of those agreements has, in fact, expired; it ended August 31, 2009. I don't understand why we would even go there because we would be back in the same kind of pain - maybe you can answer that?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, while I appreciate the genuine interest of the honourable member in this issue,. I believe she knows from previous responses in this Chamber that I'm not in a position to be able to discuss that in detail. Certainly the government respects the hard work of teachers both in the public school system and in universities and also in our community college. We are only too grateful for the incredible evolution of the community college system in this province over the last number of years, to make it a showcase of excellence across Canada, if not the world, but at the same time I have to respect the collective bargaining process and I'm not able to get into the specifics of perhaps the situation that she's referring to. Thank you.
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MS. REGAN: Well I guess I'm a little confused because you've said in the House that - through you to the minister, Mr. Chairman - you're going to respect the outcome of the collective bargaining process. The problem is that the college, in fact, agreed that the teachers should get a 2.9 per cent increase for the second year, the same as the Teachers Union, which has already been negotiated. So I'm not quite sure how that is respecting the collective bargaining process if, in fact, the college is being told what to offer or what not to offer. I'm just not quite clear on that.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, as I've said many times in this Chamber, we are in the midst of negotiations and, until they've reached a settlement, I'm not in a position to comment on the details.
MS. REGAN: Well perhaps then we could maybe discuss a more philosophical, rather than getting into the nitty-gritty details - how it is that a government doesn't have money for community college teachers but it has the money to advance a payment to universities? Is it that universities are more important than colleges - are they viewed that way? I'm just wondering why you'd pay a bill early and not negotiate in good faith with your college teachers.
MS. MORE: I'm not sure I'm in a position to debate the relative value of different programs and different expenditures - they're two completely different issues. The former government had committed to a third year of the MOU with the universities and my government decided to buy out that third year so that we could go back to our regular year-by-year funding for those institutions. That has absolutely nothing to do with money available for contract negotiations with teachers or the Civil Service.
MS. REGAN: I would submit it actually does have a lot to do with how much money and it does have to do with priorities for your government. As I've said in this Chamber before, we all make decisions and we all make priorities and apparently paying a bill early to the universities was more important than making money available for our community college teachers, who, by and large, many of whom could make more money in the private sector if they so chose.
I'm not quite sure why we can talk about some specifics of some things and not some specifics of other things, but I do have to say that I don't think it's a good plan for our students to have their schooling interrupted by a strike.
I'll move on to another line of questioning since it appears I'm not going to get any answers. I'd like to know the number of political staff who work with you or in the Department of Education.
MS. MORE: I have one executive assistant who covers both of my departments actually, both of my departments and also Volunteerism, so I have one staff across the three.
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MS. REGAN: I'd like to know the amount of funding on a per-student basis for each school board - so the average for each board.
MS. MORE: Do you want the actual figures? Okay. The per student funding for the Annapolis Valley Regional School Board is $7,751; Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board is $8,684; Chignecto-Central Regional School Board is $8,077; Conseil scolaire acadien provincial, $10,095; Halifax Regional School Board, $7,235; South Shore District, $8,800; Strait District, $9,749; and Tri-County District, $8,586.
MS. REGAN: I would ask, Mr. Chairman, that that be tabled, and perhaps one of the Pages could get me a photocopy of that as well. Also, could I have a breakdown of the total funding going to each school board?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, the total funding for the regional school boards breaks down this way: Annapolis Valley , $117,021,800; Cape Breton, $136,023,600; Chignecto, $179,521,900; CSAP, $41,833,800; Halifax, $372,940,900; South Shore, $66,939,500; Strait, $71,568,800 and Tri-County, $61,659,500.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, if I could please get that particular graph copied and tabled. I'm wondering if the minister could answer which school boards had a decline in enrolment greater than 2 per cent, and what additional funding will they qualify for as a result?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, the following boards have more than a 2 per cent enrolment decline: Cape Breton-Victoria, South Shore, Strait, and Tri-County. I don't have the other information she was asking for - how much money would they have gained without that enrolment decline - but we can get that information for you and table it.
[4:00 p.m.]
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm just wondering, is HRM funding per student so low because the municipality contributes supplementary funding to us?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, there are many reasons why the Halifax Regional School Board is able to have efficiencies that are not possible in the other school boards. Some of the factors that are taken into account in the funding formula would include things like busing, the size of the school - the square feet. The impact of the supplementary funding doesn't impact on how the formula is decided, so it's an outside - I think it's $20 million - it's completely outside how we arrive at those figures for the core funding.
MS. REGAN: Earlier this year the Joint Education Partners group called on government to increase the education budget by 4.5 per cent - this increase was to simply
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keep pace with rising inflationary pressures. What was the actual increase for 2009-10? I think you did mention that in your preamble, but I didn't have my earpiece in.
MS. MORE: The boards received an actual increase this year of 2.84 per cent - we weren't able to meet their recommendation because of the fiscal times that we're in.
MS. REGAN: In 2008 there was a 4.9 per cent increase over 2007 - you're saying it's the particular times that we're in that is not allowing the same increase to keep pace with inflation, and again I will suggest to you that, in fact, there is money available because we've made an advance payment to universities. Will the government commit to ensuring its education budget keeps pace with inflation, over its mandate?
MS. MORE: I know the honourable member recognizes that I cannot make a commitment at this time, but I think you have to understand that certainly around the Cabinet Table there is a lot of interest in priority in meeting the education needs of children and youth in this province. We recognize that with the greying of Nova Scotians and the declining birth rate, we have fewer and fewer children and youth under the age of 25. We have strong motivation to ensure that they're the healthiest, best-educated, most-supported and well- trained generation that we've ever had. Certainly that's going to be a priority and a focus.
The fact that we've been able to increase funding to school boards despite declining enrolment and despite the very tough economic times that we're in, and basically this is a budget that's supported by both the previous government and the current government, I think both former and current governments have done well by children and students in this province.
MS. REGAN: The students in the Halifax Regional School Board are funded proportionally less than the students in other school boards across this province. Understanding that there are additional cost pressures in other boards due to distance, declining enrolments, will the department consider how to provide additional funding to HRSB while ensuring other boards' funding is not decreased?
MS. MORE: There are many different factors that are taken into consideration when the formula is applied to the different school boards. It's like comparing apples, oranges, pears, and plums. The class sizes, the geographical distances - some school boards are busing about 97 per cent of their students - it's impossible to compare them across those factors. That's why the Hogg formula was developed a number of years ago to try to be fair to all the boards, whether they were having declining enrolment or their enrolment was fairly stable.
When I went around the province over the last several months speaking with the school boards, sometimes they raised the question of funding but they all felt that, relatively, the Hogg formula was working. There are cushions in there to prevent a big loss of funding with the 2 per cent student enrolment cushion, and there's also some recognition that small
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rural schools cost extra money to support. So when you take it all into account, the formula is fair to all the boards. Certainly, if we had more money there are probably some adjustments that could be made, but within the current financial situation and using a formula that has been fairly successful and has gained a lot of credibility amongst school boards and school administrators, I think we're doing quite well.
MS. REGAN: Well, correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Chairman, but the Hogg formula says that HRM should get more, and it's not. I understand that it does cost more to bus some students around the province - certainly there are some long distances - however HRSB has proportionately more special needs. For example, in HRSB this fall, there are 40 autistic children registered in Primary - so we have to deal with those kinds of issues more often in HRSB than other boards do.
My question is, will you be reviewing the Hogg formula to make sure of funding fairness?
MS. MORE: I don't think it would be a productive exercise to review the funding formula until we have more money to put into it, otherwise some boards may be considerably negatively impacted by such changes.
Now, I have to recognize that when I was on the other side of the House I argued the same point that there were more families with special needs children living in the Halifax Regional School Board area, and I haven't been able to find any statistics or comparisons to actually prove that point, but it certainly is an argument that has been used many times by that board and something that we'll certainly follow very carefully.
When the Hogg formula was first introduced, I believe it was over two years, about $4 million was allocated to the Halifax Regional Board in recognition of its special needs and special status, and that became part of its core funding and so it has been built on each year.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, I have to say that in my travels in talking to school boards, I did not have the same experience - they did not tell me that they were happy with the Hogg formula. In fact, it was an issue that was brought up in a number of boards - they did not feel it was fair because, quite frankly, 2 per cent is an artificial marker. If you're at 1.99 per cent, you don't get the extra funding; if you're at 2.1 per cent, you do. We can see that in the amounts that are spent on certain boards versus others. Will you be reviewing the Hogg funding formula to ensure fairness?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I think that no matter what formula was chosen, it's only natural that boards would look to see where they benefit and where they feel that they're not benefiting. I think for the most part, certainly from the discussions that I had with school board officials and school board members around the province, they feel that this formula
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is working. As I earlier explained, when there is more money and we can make adjustments, there may be some improvements that we can make, but the core structure of the formula seems to recognize the unique needs and priorities of each region of this province, and my government would be very reluctant to do anything to interfere with that.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to move now to capital school construction - is the NDP Government committing to all of the projects announced by the previous government last Spring?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, we're honouring all the commitments that were made by the previous government. There are three situations where the boards want more money than what was offered by the Department of Education and so we're in ongoing negotiations in those three situations.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, so when you say yes, or sort of yes, you're going to commit the same amount or more as was announced in the Spring by the previous government, is that correct?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, there are always adjustments that have to be made depending on the tenders and unexpected expenditures or enhancements that municipalities would like to add to school buildings, things like that, but we're able to meet the commitments, and certainly we set aside money to move forward on those initiatives.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, just to be certain - at a minimum, the projects that were announced last Spring will receive at least the same money, if not more, as was announced last Spring?
MS. MORE: Well, it's difficult to say because sometimes the tenders come in lower than what we had anticipated, but generally that's going to be the rule of operating.
[4:15 p.m.]
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, I have to say that the minister has had a completely different experience than I have when dealing with tenders and building projects or anything like that.
My next question is will those projects be completed in the same time frames as announced by the previous government?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, all the new construction is on schedule, so unless there is more information or detail that you want to provide to me on a specific situation - we can check that out - I'm not clear where you're going with the question.
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MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, for example, my understanding is that there has been no decision on the Lunenburg school, whether it's now going to be a P to 12, as opposed to a P to 9. I do know that the Bedford high school, the earliest start date has been pushed back - it was announced for September 2012 and it has now been pushed back, at the very earliest, to January 2013. I guess what I want to make sure is that these projects are going to proceed in a timely manner, number one, and number two, if they have been delayed, if the minister can shed any light on any of those.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that the Bedford high school was always scheduled to open in December 2012, so I'm not sure about the delay there. Certainly you referenced the Lunenburg school, and the board has told us that they want Primary to Grade 9 there. They've come forward with three sites and one of those will be chosen as a designated site in the near future.
MS. REGAN: How much money is allocated to pre-Primary programs?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member may remember that when the school entry age changed from October to December, that year the former government cancelled the pre-Primary program in order to provide focus and resources and staffing for the larger cohort that would be going through at that time. It's my understanding that the francophone school board does have several pre-Primary programs that are funded out of federal money. We also have Schools Plus programs being piloted at four schools in four school boards. I don't have the figures for those - if you're interested, it's something that we could gather and table.
MS. REGAN: Bearing in mind the Dr. Mustard study, Investing in the Early Years: Closing the gap between what we know and what we do, tells us that for every dollar that we invest in early learning there is a $6 to $7 return. Is there any plan at this time to take those four programs at the four schools and augment them elsewhere, add to them throughout the province?
MS. MORE: This is another issue that we share a common interest in, and I'm actually in discussions with the Department of Community Services, the minister and her senior officials, looking at the possibility of creating some space for child care centres in elementary schools in this province, to see how that kind of partnership might stabilize the child care sector. I agree with you, the earlier that we provide quality education and care to our youngest citizens, the more developed they are, the readier they are for school, and the more enjoyment they get out of the academic process. So it's something that my government is very interested in. We've been very involved with the child care and early learning sector in Nova Scotia and we'll certainly be investigating any opportunities possible to look at the early years.
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MS. REGAN: Has your department studied the Nunn Commission and entertained the ways in which it might address some of the recommendations?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, yes, and that's exactly the impetus for the Schools Plus movement in Nova Scotia, and we're co-operating with the Departments of Community Services, Health, Health Promotion and Protection, and Justice to create these pilot projects where we're trying to provide inter-agency support and services to high-risk students and their families, and also to do it within the supportive environment of the school. This is something we hope to expand in the near future because it seems to be a model that's working very well.
MS. REGAN: The Nunn Commission, Recommendation 31, indicated "The Department of Education should ensure that there is additional training for teachers and administrators on best practices in assisting students with attention deficit and other disorders, along with adequate funding for assessment and early intervention of students with these disorders in Nova Scotia schools."
Does your government support this recommendation and what is your government doing to implement this recommendation?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, one of the initiatives that the Department of Education has undertaken is in partnership with EDI, which is Early Developmental Institute. We're piloting a program with the Strait Regional School Board that allows us to look at the value of pre-Primary assessment, and we're continually doing professional development with our staff on an ongoing basis around learning disabilities and other special situations like that.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, could you possibly tell me how much money the government has in fact earmarked to do this kind of investigation, because it seems to me that this is a good thing to do before children go into school, obviously, but once children are in school what I'm hearing from parents is that they feel their children who have learning disorders are not being supported adequately. What I'm wondering is how much money in the board's budget does go to this kind of assistance and training, and are there any plans to move this beyond this particular one school board?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I know in the Education Department budget about $120 million is targeted to the boards for special needs support, but the boards are spending considerably more. If you would like, we could survey the schools and get the actual figures and perhaps table that information at a later date.
MS. REGAN: The Nunn Commission, Recommendation 32, indicated "The Department of Education should consider additional funding of initiatives to develop and sustain programs and supports that encourage 'school attachment' for students at risk, either within the regular schools or in dedicated, alternative programs." And Justice Nunn went on
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to say "Without limiting this recommendation, as particular examples I recommend that: the department should consider the introduction of and targeted funding for junior high support teachers throughout the province; and the department and Halifax Regional School Board should continue and expand their respective 'Youth Pathways and Transitions' programs." I'm wondering, has your government put additional resources to this recommendation this fiscal year?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, in response to the honourable member's question specific to those two initiatives, we've held our own - we have not been able to put much additional money in this budget into those programs. But I would like to remind you that we are involved with other initiatives, including Options and Opportunities, co-operative placements, community mentorships and many other avenues whereby we can either bring in community members or allow students to work alongside employers in the community, and this helps them see the relevance of the information that they're learning in school and how it can be applied in a practical way. It helps them stay engaged. It produces, sometimes, very long-term positive relationships with other adults in their community - so a combination of those things is helping to focus more attention and support for youth at risk.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, sort of back to Recommendation 32. We discussed there was $120 million targeted for special needs support and that boards, in fact, do spend more than that - this $120 million, was that an increase from last year or was that the same as last year?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, it's basically the same amount of money, with perhaps a little bit of increase to cover some additional salary expenses and cost of living, you know, inflationary expenditures, but no real significant increase in that.
MS. REGAN: Bearing in mind, Mr. Chairman, that in fact education stakeholders weren't included in the Nunn Commission, and so therefore they did not maybe have the kind of input they would have liked into the process, when I did talk with the Nova Scotia Teachers Union they did suggest that perhaps a peace program which would teach a better way to solve conflicts in the schools might be a good idea - has this been considered by the Department of Education, and would funding currently be available for this type of initiative?
[4:30 p.m.]
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, we have a variety of initiatives that are specific to certain regions of the province, sometimes through the school, sometimes through the community. The honourable member may be familiar with Peacemakers, or the League of Peaceful Schools, I think it's called. I know in my own community we have a group called Operation P.E.A.C.E. and it's made up of students from elementary and junior high. I've gone to some of their gatherings and it's amazing the leadership skills that they have learned, and how they're able to translate that confidence and knowledge about how people interact and react
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to one another in their school setting. So it's a very worthy concept and many schools and communities have taken up the challenge, but there's nothing that's province-wide.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, the second part of my question, is funding currently available for this type of initiative? If it were to come forward perhaps, could it be done province-wide - is there money available for that kind of thing is what I'm wondering?
MS. MORE: I think at this stage we might entertain a proposal from a school board to do a pilot, but I don't anticipate that we'll have funding available for a province-wide initiative over the next couple of years at least.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, earlier today we had an announcement about class sizes and I'm just wondering, because we did not decrease class sizes to 28, and it remains at 30, is there a plan for that for next year or are we going to have to wait longer to see those class sizes reduced?
MS. MORE: As the honourable member can appreciate, that was a commitment of the former government. I'm reviewing international and national research on the determinants of learning and looking at best practices elsewhere in Canada and around the world. It appears that the quality of teacher instruction seems to be the highest in terms of relevance or directly related to improving student learning outcomes. So I'm not in a position to say whether or not we're going to go forward with capping class sizes at the elementary level - it may be that we reallocate additional funding in the future to evidence-based learning in terms of what really has the most impact on student learning.
MS. REGAN: We're all in favour of evidence-based learning. Now, I would like to move on to Early Language Literacy Assessments. We've seen that the listening tasks assessments have stayed approximately the same over the past few years - a few school boards did, in fact, see some marginal improvements, but about 80 per cent of the students are meeting expectations. I'm wondering, what is your government doing to help the approximately 20 per cent of students who aren't meeting expectations?
MS. MORE: Mr. Speaker, I know you were talking mostly about language arts, but we've found that a very positive move is to provide mentors to teachers in classrooms or in schools. Certainly the initiative to provide math and language art mentors has been extremely successful and school staff and parents are, I think, very pleased with the outcomes.
We also have about $1.4 million left in that fund that we're going to be consulting with boards to see how it can best be used. Whether or not it would be targeted on students who, perhaps, underperform on certain assessments test at certain levels - whether we target those specific students or whether we provide a better learning atmosphere in the classroom for all the students in that class, I'm not sure, but certainly the mentorship program has worked extremely well.
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MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure that I quite understand what your government is doing to help the 20 per cent of students who did not meet expectations for the Early Language Literacy Assessments.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could give an example of another innovative approach that many of our school boards are involved with. I think four school boards have 56 schools - oh, sorry, six regional school boards and 56 schools, and it is called the Achievement Gap Initiative, the Tripod Project, and the school boards are collaborating with the co-chairman and director of the Achievement Gap Initiative, as it's called at Harvard University, and they have a shared interest in raising the achievement for all students and narrowing the achievement gaps among students.
Initially this Tripod Project will advance measurement and analysis in terms of developing a policy that will help students who are underachieving, and so we would have a better understanding of the needs of these students, many of them who come from diverse linguistic and cultural backgrounds. So we need to measure it, so we can better work towards improving their success in terms of literacy.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, I guess I'm a little bit confused here, because I thought that was what the assessment tests were for - actually measuring where the students were. So I'm not quite sure why it is that we have more measuring going on. Again, evidence-based education is a good thing, but I'm not quite clear how just measuring is going to make a difference in what we're doing to help these students.
MS. MORE: Perhaps I could clarify. The literacy assessment tests identify gaps - this project will identify how to close the gaps. We're currently spending about $1.5 million for 22 literacy mentors around the province, just to give you an idea of the cost of this type of program, but we recognize the critical need for it.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, I guess I'm a little confused - did you just say that we're spending $1.4 million on 22 literacy mentors? Am I correct, is that what you said?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, actually it's $1.5 million and it covers their salaries, expenses - yes, and benefits.
MS. REGAN: In terms of other literacy assessments, such as the narrative writing tasks that students have to perform - we did see quite an improvement, a substantial improvement of 23 per cent over last year. When I hear about sort of a massive jump like that, I ask myself, what did we do differently? Why did we see such a big jump? How did we improve that much? So I'm just wondering what we did there, and could we apply that elsewhere?
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MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I think it is a combination of factors. We're certainly seeing the impact of the literacy mentors working with teachers around the province. We have been putting additional resources into schools in the classrooms - I think there was also a program where we followed underachieving students at certain assessment grade levels and tried to provide extra resources for those students. We've learned - that's the whole point of doing the assessments, it provides guidance to the schools and to the department in terms of any changes in curriculum or methodology that need to happen in order to achieve better results and have a more positive outcome for students. So I think it's indicative of the fact that what we're doing works.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, when I hear about a massive change like that over one year, that makes me wonder if what we're doing is, in fact, teaching to the test and not so much that our performance is changing - because it's a huge jump and, when I hear that, it just makes me wonder, are there resources allocated to determine the effectiveness of student assessments?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure what the honourable member is suggesting. The assessments that are done are just that - they're assessments; they are not tests. For the most part they're marked essentially not by the classroom teachers and they've been found to be very sound measurements of the evaluation.
So I'm not sure - are you suggesting the methodology is problematic? I'm not sure where you're going with this. It's just that they are an assessment, they're a snapshot in time of where students are, and they're used as one of a number of tools to evaluate our curriculum, our teaching, and it's a way to improve on what we're doing in terms of the learning experience for young people. It's not meant to be a reflection on any individual child or teacher, or class, or school - it's just one of a number of tools that is used to make improvements.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member has approximately four and a half minutes left.
MS. REGAN: Thank you for clarifying that for me. I guess what I'm really asking is that because we don't know exactly what it is that made the 23 per cent improvement, I guess I'm just looking for clarification - what is it that we did differently there at that particular grade level? Is it the kind of thing that can be transferred into other grades? Is it the kind of thing that if it's an innovative program, can it be used in other ways so that we can increase our scores in those as well?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the honourable member's interest in this and I'm not sure I have anything more to offer. But what I could suggest is to perhaps get more information on that issue for her, or arrange a meeting between the honourable member and
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one of my staff so you can ask those questions and hopefully get a better answer than you're getting from me today.
[4:45 p.m.]
MS. REGAN: I understand that we have a report on high school absenteeism that is coming due. Public consultations ended on July 10th, and I'm wondering what the status of the report is. Certainly it's one that I've heard a lot from teachers, when I met with them, that it's of grave concern that kids just aren't going to school.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I anticipate receiving that report towards the end of October and I'll have a chance to talk to the committee about their recommendations. Certainly absenteeism is a huge problem right across Canada, and it's often a symptom of other issues. We need to be clear that we're dealing with the root causes of absenteeism, so I'll be very interested to receive the report and the recommendations.
MS. REGAN: I'm wondering, once you receive the report and you get to study it, is there actually funding set aside to implement some of its recommendations or is it just going to kind of go up on a shelf?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I anticipate talking to a number of different groups once I receive the recommendations. There's no money in this budget, but certainly - I can't anticipate what the recommendations are or whether they have any impact in terms of budget either - it may be there are some issues that we can start to work on together that haven't got cost implications but, certainly if there are, those are things that we'll be considering for next Spring's budget.
MS. REGAN: I'm wondering, has the Department of Education set aside any additional funding for boards to hire more EPAs?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, there is no additional money for educational assistance in this budget. The boards have the authority and discretion to use their larger envelope for staffing needs in ways that best meet the needs of their schools and their regions. Every year the Department of Education provides sort of an analysis, or a breakdown, of staffing ratios and some of the boards I think realize that they're overstaffed in terms of EPAs compared to other boards, and others have maintained an average closer to a generally accepted provincial average.
So I think some of the boards, with money being as tight as it is, are readjusting some of their staffing requirements, but I've been assured that the safety and educational progress of children and teachers requiring educational assistants across the province is the top priority, and that if any parent or guardian has a concern they should talk to their school board, either members or senior staff, to try to resolve the situation.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Bedford-Birch Cove, your time has expired.
The honourable Interim Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party.
HON. KAREN CASEY: Good afternoon to the minister and staff. I'm pleased to be able to rise in my place to ask some questions that, it should not surprise you, are near and dear to my heart. First of all I want to ask you, how familiar are you with the report on services for students with special needs?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, to the honourable member, I'm somewhat familiar with the reports, as you well know because you were very instrumental in initiating those reports. After the initial report was received by the department there was an additional study done on that, so if you're interested in specific information I'll try to answer your questions.
MS. CASEY: There were 27 recommendations in that particular report and I'm wondering, could you provide a status on the implementation of those recommendations?
MS. MORE: Perhaps I could suggest that I'll have someone prepare a status update on those recommendations and table it before the House.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, the general theme throughout all of those recommendations was that there was a need to enhance the services and supports that we were providing for special needs students in our schools, and I would be glad to receive a status report on all of those, but if I can be specific and ask you, when you were doing your introduction you did talk about some specific areas within the public school funding that had shown a decrease, can you be more specific with that, please?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, this part of the budget is exactly as it was in the May budget. The reference I made to reductions included the $1.4 million for the literacy improvement program and $924,000 for the special education pilot project. Now we have retained $1 million in that budget to complete the projects that were already underway, but we're delaying or deferring starting up any more pilots. Was that the information you were looking for, honourable member?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, those were two. I thought I heard you say there were four areas. So if you could give me all four - I know one of them was technology-related expenses, but I believe you mentioned four areas.
MS. MORE: The additional ones - we're cutting the learning resources budget in half which stays, it's the same in the May budget as it is now, and that basically is a deferral of purchase of replacement textbooks and DVDs; also the class four, taking away the cap for the 28 and it has moved it back up to 30. So those were the four reductions.
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MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I would also like to ask - a number of these questions will be with respect to special education, so your staff can be ready with their information - one of the recommendations in that particular study was to eliminate the Tuition Support Program, and we did not accept that, in fact we extended that for the fourth year. Can you tell me what your position is on the student Tuition Support Program?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I have received the report. I have not made a response except for the fifth year of the tuition support, and for those, I think, 23 families - something like that - we have allowed a fifth year, but my government is certainly interested in making sure that we have enough resources in the public school system to accommodate the special needs of children with learning disabilities, attention deficit syndrome, and others. We need more time to study the impact of the recommendations, so I'll be making a response when that review has finished.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I think you're referring to the review of the Tuition Support Program. Initially we were talking about the review of services for special needs students - one of the recommendations in that was the Tuition Support Program. Are you referring to the latter - that when you receive that report you will respond?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, yes, I'm referring to the latter report.
MS. CASEY: If we can continue though to talk about special needs students and tuition support. You indicated that there would be support for the fifth year - I believe you said 20-some families - can you give me the cost of that fifth year, please?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I don't have the exact figure, but at a cost of about $6,600 and I believe there were 23 students. I don't have the final figures on which families decided to have their children continue in that program, but I'm thinking if you multiplied $6,600 by 23 you would have roughly the amount of money set aside to cover the fifth year of tuition support, but we can get you the actual figures and I will table that information.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I would be very interested in that number because I would like to balance that against the $924,000 that was cut from special education, in particular, the special-ed programs that were cancelled. So I would be very interested to know what the savings might have been and what the cost to students might have been to make the cut and put that money into a fifth year. Can you give me your thoughts on that?
[5:00 p.m.]
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, to be frank, I think the former government may have a better idea of why that cut was made. The money to cover the tuition for the fifth year of the tuition support is actually additional money that my government put in there to allow for a continuity of programming for those students. The cut was in the May budget and we've
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added some money to cover the fifth year of the tuition support in the September budget, so that would be the only difference on that line.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, if in fact that is the only difference, then I would think that would show in a comparison between the May budget and this budget - so how much was that line increased by to accommodate the fifth year?
MS. MORE: It was reallocated from other budget lines in the department budget, so we took money from other places in order to accommodate the fifth year of the tuition support.
MS. CASEY: Then my question would be, what lines were reduced in order to allow that allocation for the fifth year?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I'm told it was a fairly small allocation. We don't have that information here, but we could get it and make it available to the member by tabling it.
MS. CASEY: Another component of the review for services for students with special needs, as I said, talked about enhancements for those students, and I'm wondering what the department's position is - I know I've heard you say that no additional money went to boards for educational assistants, but I'm wondering what the request is from boards for additional money because of the circumstances that they are faced with.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, the boards were given their allocations last Spring in order for them to meet some of their staffing notice deadlines. At that time, I understand that there was no concern expressed by the boards; since I've been involved as minister we haven't received any requests from the boards for additional support; and because of the decline in enrolment, that gave some flexibility to boards in terms of their staffing needs. So that's what I know at this point.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I believe there were some significant concerns in boards, and I would use the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board as an example where in the local paper, the Amherst Daily News I believe it was, quoted someone from your government saying that any cuts to educational assistants would affect our most vulnerable, that would be our students - and at that point they were looking at a reduction of between 30 and 66 EA positions. Your comments on that?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I think as early as last Spring the board knew because of their negotiations in terms of increasing contracted hours with the teacher assistants, that they would have to accommodate fewer TAs within their allocated budget. As it turns out, in 2008-09 they had 381 full-time equivalent teacher assistants at five hours per day at that board and they funded them from their special education budget for a total of 1,905 hours, and their budget for the current year has 347 full-time equivalent teacher assistant positions
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at 5.5 hours a day, funded from a similar special education budget, again for a total of 1,910 hours. So the time supporting students and teachers in the school system has stayed about the same - it's administered by fewer teacher assistants. I'm not sure - was there another question there, honourable member?
MS. CASEY: I'm certainly aware of the negotiations which went from a five-hour to a five-and-a-half-hour day. My question to you is, what do you have to say to the educational assistants who no longer have a job because of those negotiations?
MS. MORE: I understand the impact of some of the board's decisions on those individuals - some of them got in touch with me personally to tell me their story. I'm not, as Minister of Education, in the position to micromanage the school boards, and while I understand that they felt some financial pressures caused by the economic situation we're in and the fact that we couldn't increase the school board budgets as significantly as either your government might wish or my government might wish, certainly the school board had plenty of notice in terms of the envelope of funding that they would have to work within - and these positions are contracted part-time positions 10 months of the year, so it's not uncommon, in fact it's expected that those contracts finish the end of June and many of them are renewed in September.
So there is a period of uncertainty there for those teacher assistants and their families, not knowing whether or not they're going to be hired back on. It's a very difficult situation and I empathize, but certainly the department is not in the position of telling school boards how to spend their money. So we're trying to balance - I'm sure the school board is trying to balance the needs of the children within the financial realities within which they work. For the most part school boards have made very professional and very caring decisions in terms of how the money has been spent in this year's budget.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, have any of the school boards expressed a concern about insufficient funding to allow them to provide assistance for those students with special needs?
MS. MORE: I'm trying to recollect from my tour of the province and visits to all the school boards - certainly interest in improving programs and services for special needs students came up, but I don't remember being asked about teacher assistants specifically in terms of inadequate funding from the provincial government. My memory may be faulty here but it certainly wasn't raised in any way that would have created a warning in my mind that I must go back and check into that. Any of the family situations that were referred to me at the department, staff certainly liaised with school board staff to ensure that someone was going to meet directly with that family and answer their concerns.
I have to say that towards the end of September I did hear back from a few school board members who suggested that they gave an option to families in the area, that look, you
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know, once your child starts school in September, if you're not happy with the situation get in touch with me and I'll see what I can do - this is a school board member talking - and several of them mentioned to me that for the most part the parents and guardians seemed to be satisfied with the arrangements that school board staff had made and very few of those people either connected with their school board member or with their local MLA. So I can only surmise that, generally, people were satisfied with the reallocation of teaching assistants.
MS. CASEY: I guess if I could make a comment before my next question - if they're not happy, I'll expect you'll hear from them.
I do have another question though, and I know we've been talking about the areas where there was a decrease in the budget, but I would like to speak a little bit to the area for public education funding - the increase of $25.1 million. Can you give me the breakdown of that $25.1 million increase, please?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I can get you a more detailed breakdown, but generally that additional money covered salaries, pension benefits, transportation - for example, some of the boards had renewal of busing contracts with higher leases and charges. So, generally, it's just the usual operating costs of the school boards, but we can certainly get a breakdown of that in a more formal way and table it.
MS. CASEY: I would really be interested in that breakdown because I think initially you said it was salaries, pensions, and transportation costs, but were the transportation costs also related to salaries and benefits for the drivers, or were they other non-salary-related costs for transportation?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, as the honourable member will remember, busing is done in either of two ways - sometimes the school boards provide it in-house, and other times they contract it out to a private-for-profit operator. Certainly the additional money that went into transportation would have covered any salary increases and benefits within the school board-provided transportation, but that would have been built into a higher contract for the private operators. So not all of them came due at the same time obviously, but this would just cover the ones that would have impacted on the school board budgets.
MS. CASEY: So the $25.1 million - and I know you're going to give me more detail - I'm not hearing anything now except salary and benefits and contracts related to employees, is there anything else that has contributed to that $25.1 million increase?
MS. MORE: It would have covered also program increases to the International Baccalaureate programming and also to the O2 programming. As I mentioned during my introductory speech, both of those programs received a significant infusion of new funding.
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[5:15 p.m.]
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, could you be specific and tell me how many more schools are offering IB, and how many more students are involved in IB than were last year?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, we still have 13 schools delivering IB in the province, so there's no additional.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Pardon me? Could the minister repeat that?
MS. MORE: We still have the 13 schools delivering IB in the province - no additional new schools this Fall - and their funding increase went up by $340,000. So I believe last year they received $1.27 million, and we're projecting that probably more than 800 students will be registered in IB this year. The other good news on this one is that we plan to launch a pilot of on-line IB courses in September, so I'm assuming that has happened since this is October.
In regard to Options and Opportunities, the increase is $759,000, which gives us a total of $7.3 million for the program that's been invested this year - do you want figures for that as well? Okay, 44 schools will be offering O2 this Fall to 1,620 students - so the enrolment has quadrupled since the program was introduced in 2006-07. As you are aware, last year funding was provided for 10 additional schools to Grade 10 students.
The additional funding is going to allow an expansion of the Grade 10 Options and Opportunities program to Grade 11 in nine schools, and there will also be an expansion from Grade 11 to Grade 12 in seven schools. That gives us our total all told, including the original schools in the program, to 44 schools in this school year. Thank you.
MS. CASEY: I'd like to go back to the IB Programme just for a minute and I think I understood you to say that there were no new schools, but the number of students involved in the IB Programme had increased. Can you give me the number of students involved last year? I think you told me 800 students this year - how many students were involved in IB last year?
MS. MORE: We don't have those numbers with us, but we'll make sure that they're available to the honourable member.
MS. CASEY: Thank you, I would appreciate getting that. What I'm trying to determine is since there are no new schools participating in IB, but there are obviously more students enrolled in IB, would the $340,000 increase be all salary?
MS. MORE: Most of that money would be salaries and learning materials.
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MS. CASEY: Same question regarding the O2. I know that the number of schools has increased - $759,000 increase - would I expect the answer to be the same for that?
MS. MORE: Yes, it would be mainly salaries for O2.
MS. CASEY: If we could move from the special education programs part to another report that was completed, which had to do with the teacher education, so if your staff can get ready for that. My question is, I guess, where are we with the implementation of the recommendations in that particular report?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, we've decided to implement these recommendations by bringing forward a new teacher education Act, probably in the Spring session. There was a recommendation for two advisory committees to the minister and my thinking now is that it will probably be one committee but it would also include the group that would want to do work on the practicum side of teacher education in terms of making sure it's as effective as possible. So we're looking forward to reviewing the recommendations more and getting the legislation in place for the Spring session.
MS. CASEY: I'm aware of some of the recommendations having been implemented. I'm wondering, what will happen to the implementation of those recommendations and how that will align with a new teacher education Act?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I anticipate that the Act will reflect a number of the recommendations that the former government, as well, had agreed they would move forward on and implement. This is a way to provide a structure and a process for us to formalize those.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, does that mean there will be no further implementation of those recommendations until the Act has been prepared?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, no, if some of the recommendations are ones that we can be working on over the winter, we will; in fact the proposal that Cape Breton University deliver its own Bachelor of Education program has already been acted upon. You might be interested to know that we anticipate the legislation will include things like the requirement that Nova Scotian universities obtain ministerial approval in order to introduce a B.Ed. either directly or through articulated agreements with other universities, and also that universities wishing to offer those B.Ed. programs meet certain requirements. It would also cover things like the terms and conditions on program, scope and content approved by the Maritime Provinces Higher Education Commission and the allocation of seats based on labour/market supply and demand. So some of those more general areas would be the ones covered under the legislation.
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MS. CASEY: I'm a bit concerned about the last comment - that the Act may address the enrolment corridors. There were some specific recommendations about the corridors, and recommendation number two - has that recommendation been fully implemented? I'll save my second question until later.
MS. MORE: You're right. The recommendation talked about maintaining existing enrolment corridors, I think they call them, for teacher education. I believe we actually increased the numbers for St. F.X. this year, so there's general support for that. It's something that I'll certainly be discussing even further with the university presidents.
We know there's high demand to take a Bachelor of Education, and it can certainly be a lead-in to other professions and careers as well as education, so we're very mindful of the importance of that line of academic study.
MS. CASEY: I guess my follow-up question would be, the corridor for St. F.X. was increased, recommended that it be fully funded to the total allocated, has that been funded this year?
MS. MORE: I'll confirm this figure, but I believe it was fully funded to the agreed 115 placement. We can double-check on that.
MS. CASEY: Madam Minister, you made a comment about a great demand for the B.Ed. program - can you tell me what the most recent statistics are telling you about supply and demand with teacher training and surplus teachers?
[5:30 p.m.]
MS. MORE: I'm not clear on whether the honourable member is asking if everyone who wants to get into education can, or if she's asking more specifically how it relates to supply and demand within the school system.
Certainly the supply meets our current needs as a school system, although she would be well aware that we do have some shortages in math and physics, and there are some shortages based on geographical situations - some regions of the province have more difficulty getting positions filled than others. I don't have any statistics on the first aspect if that's what you were looking for, but the supply meets the current demand for new teachers.
MS. CASEY: My reference to supply and demand was the importance of the statistics that are available regarding supply and demand being very much a decision-making factor when we look at the corridors and when we look at the number of students who are received in a B.Ed. program. I guess my question was, what are the current supply and demand statistics? I believe 2007 was the last set of statistics that I was reviewing, and I know what
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those were saying. What are they saying now about the supply and demand for teachers in Nova Scotia?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure we have an updated analysis of that, but we can certainly check and make it available if it is possible to get those figures.
MS. CASEY: I think it's important to make sure that plays very much into any decision making. The reason I would say that is because one of the criticisms that we received was increasing the supply and having that far outweigh the demand, and therefore you would have a number of students who were trained as teachers and no possible employment prospects in the province. In fact, I think the number of students who have graduated from B.Ed. programs over the last number of years has increased significantly from about 600 to over 1,000. So my concern is that we have students who believe they will be employable in this province, take their B.Ed. program and incur significant costs, and have no opportunities. I guess my focus is, how much is that information playing into any of the implementation and/or the details of the new proposed Act?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I certainly appreciate the perspective that the honourable member is adding to this issue and it's something I will check into, but I guess I'm living proof that having a B.Ed. can be a foundation or sort of universal education that leads to many other fields beyond education. So, yes, we'll check into that. You raise an interesting perspective and it's something I would appreciate getting more information on, so I will check into that.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, still continuing with teacher education and teacher training, where are we with the program with the University of Maine?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I understand the University of Maine has upgraded their standards so they better meet qualifications for people wishing to teach in Nova Scotia. So the relationship is pretty much the same, except we're anticipating that the education program in Cape Breton University might take some of the enrolment that we're currently losing to the University of Maine. So we'll be watching the impact of the CBU program very closely.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, one of the concerns with respect to the University of Maine had to do with placement of students for practicum. How has that been addressed?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, certainly we give highest priority in terms of student placements to Nova Scotia students who go into Nova Scotian universities, but as much as possible the boards are trying to place the students from the University of Maine and usually there's not much of a problem, but occasionally we'll find Nova Scotia students concerned that they weren't able to do their practicum here in their home province.
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MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, has the department given some direction to school boards with respect to that?
MS. MORE: The issue had been previously referred to the school boards around the province and they haven't raised it with us as an issue - so I'm not sure just what to read into that, but it has not been brought up by them as a problem.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, then I would ask, how do you know that they're being given highest priority?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I'm only going by the experience that as minister, and senior officials in my department tell me, that we haven't had any concerns or complaints expressed by Nova Scotia students regarding not being able to get a practicum experience in their home province, whether they're doing it through our Nova Scotia education program or through the University of Maine. So if the school boards haven't raised it as an issue with us and the students haven't raised it as an issue, it has not been high on our priority list. Certainly if you have information to the contrary, I would appreciate receiving that, and take some action.
MS. CASEY: Well, it certainly was an issue at the time that the review was done, because it was identified in one of the recommendations. So it was an issue then and I guess my question is, what have you done as a department to make sure that, as you say, they're given highest priority? We don't know what direction has been given, so I'm still not comfortable that that recommendation has been fully addressed.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, all I can respectfully say is that it actually was a recommendation in terms of being a response from the honourable member when she was Minister of Education, that it be referred to the school boards. Any issue that's brought to my attention or brought to the attention of my senior staff, we will act upon, but it has not been raised as a priority concern by students or school boards to this date. Certainly, now that it has been raised, I have no problem - I don't mind checking into it to see the status of that.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, the recommendations to which I refer are not my recommendations, nor mine when I was minister. They're recommendations from the panel that did the review and they would have certainly, as part of that, had some consultation with students, with teachers, and with boards, and from those consultations they identified that as an issue and thus it became a recommendation - so it's not my recommendation or any former minister's recommendation. I believe it would have been a concern then and I'm concerned about how it has been resolved, so if the minister could please check on that for me, because if there has been no direction to boards, or no response back from boards, I'm not sure how we can say that we're giving them highest priority. So I would ask if the minister could provide me with that information.
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MS. MORE: I would be pleased to. And when I referred to highest priority, those were the practicums being done by the students taking education programs in the province and then, secondly, the boards would have been asked to accommodate the students going through education at the University of Maine - but I take the honourable member's point and we'll certainly check into that.
MS. CASEY: Another part of the recommendations, and it was information that was shared - an implementation that would not be costly in dollars, but was obviously something that was requested and it had to do with induction programs that boards could offer for new teachers. Can you explain or share with me what some boards are doing as part of their induction programs for new teachers?
MS. MORE: The department budget doesn't specifically fund new teacher inductions - orientations, I guess is what I'm more familiar with. If you are interested, we could survey the schools to find out, but in a general way we understand that some boards bring in new teachers early, before the school year starts, to give them an orientation. Often, within the school setting, they're matched with mentors or coaches to help them during those initial months and year. But we don't have any specific information on what each board does. So if you're interested, we could survey them and find out specifically how various schools introduce new teachers to their school board and to their new teaching assignments.
MS. CASEY: I would go back to my previous comment about the implementation of the recommendations, and if that recommendation has in fact been implemented, then I would think we would need to have that request made of school boards to let the department know. I think it is important, not that the department dictate to boards what they do, but that if it came out as a concern, I think it's important for the department to know if the boards have addressed that and what they are doing. So I would ask the minister if that information is available through the boards and if that could be made available to the department and to me?
MS. MORE: I can certainly check into it. The responses to these recommendations happened during the previous government. That certainly doesn't mean we don't have some responsibility to carry through on these recommendations, I'm not suggesting that. Certainly the condition put around that response previously had been subject to budgetary approval and resource constraints. I guess, not having been able to fund any new initiative by boards, the department felt a bit awkward about asking what they had done - another case of expecting more for less.
[5:45 p.m.]
It's an important issue, certainly, and I'm sure we can make sure it's a topic at one of the next superintendent's meetings with the deputy minister and try to get more specific information on it. Making sure that a new or returning teacher to any school board system
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has the best orientation possible will ensure better success and better teaching in the classroom. It's all about what's going to make the most positive educational experience for students and these are all important factors. I thank you for raising the issue.
MS. CASEY: To the minister, one of the comments that you made earlier had to do with the education program at CBU and that you would be monitoring that. I'm wondering if you could tell me, how many students have enrolled in the program at CBU?
MS. MORE: It's my understanding that there are 60 students enrolled in the program and 42 of them have been identified as meeting the condition that those students be in the areas of labour market shortages in terms of teaching specialties. It's been approved by the Maritime Provinces Higher Education Commission and seems to be working well. Obviously we're in the early days, but there's been significant interest from students, so 60 students have registered. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The time has expired for the questioning from the Progressive Conservative Party.
The honourable member for Dartmouth East.
MR. ANDREW YOUNGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll be sharing my time with the member for Bedford-Birch Cove, if that pleases the Chair.
I think the Minister of Education probably knows my very first question. I'll ask it just for the record, but she can probably guess what it will be. What are the plans in terms of the delayed renovations at Prince Andrew High School?
MS. MORE: I have considerable details here and I know that the honourable member is interested, so if he'll be patient I'd like to make sure that you get all of them since I wasn't in a position last week to answer your questions specifically. The government is actually investing $8.65 million in the future of Prince Andrew High School. This is a significant contribution but we know that school will continue to serve the community and the students very well.
The current situation, the roof replacement is under construction, it's about 50 per cent complete. The remainder of the roofing contract is supposed to be completed by the end of October. RFP for design consultant services will be issued within the next two weeks. The design consultants will begin with the creation of a development plan to implement the work over the next four years. We expect that design phase to be completed within the 2009-10 fiscal year.
So the phase construction began with the roof replacement and the remainder of the work is expected to be completed by July 2013.
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MR. YOUNGER: Thank you very much, I'm very pleased to hear that. We had certainly seen some of the roof work going on and to know that everything else is now going to come forward on a plan is very great news. I would like to ask a similar question about a high school in her own riding, Dartmouth High School - it's very much the same question. What are the plans in terms of either renovations, some are talking replacement now, but I assume we're still on a renovation plan for that school?
MS. MORE: Thank you for asking that question. As I indicated to the honourable member earlier in this session, both high schools are of extreme interest to me, but Dartmouth High is the school I graduated from so I have a special connection with that facility. I am pleased to share the information that the committee that's going to help with the design work is currently being formed and we have funding allocated for the next several years to ensure that the work is done by the end of 2013 as well.
We've set aside $815,000 this year; we've set aside $4 million for the next year; $4.036 million for 2011-12; and $2.994 million in 2012-13. So that's going to provide significant upgrading to that facility, and hopefully it will meet the needs and expectations of both the students and their families and the community of Dartmouth.
MR. YOUNGER: Mr. Chairman, thank you to the minister for that information. Both for Prince Andrew and Dartmouth High, that's very exciting news and I know the students and the families will be very excited to hear that, and the alumni.
I want to move on to something else. The minister referred to the caps being changed in the Grade 4 level from, if I understand from the opening remarks, 28 to 30. I sit on an elementary school advisory committee and one of the things that we've struggled with are the caps. I'm wondering whether one of the problems seems to be around the fact that students that come in after, I think, September 30th, if I'm not mistaken on the date, don't count toward those cap sizes, which can create some problems in areas of high transition of students. Those are usually specific schools, but I'm wondering whether the department is looking at anything, or any plans to deal with that situation where you can sometimes actually end up with 30 kids in a class that's capped at - I think the lowest cap is 25 or 24. I'm just wondering whether the department is looking at that issue that gets created in schools that have high transitions in the Fall period.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, certainly the October 30th enrolment figures are helpful in allowing the boards to sort of level off their staffing changes. Boards, to some extent actually, without the caps, have more flexibility in dealing with the unique challenges within a situation. Geographically it may be difficult to move the boundary, or whatever, or parents perhaps aren't receptive to having a split class, it gives them just a little more flexibility. Often it's not the number of students in a class that provides challenges for the teacher, it's often the particular needs of the students - it could be 17, 20, 25, 30 students, the dynamics within the class situation that create pressures.
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As I explained earlier, my government has not made a decision on whether or not to continue with capping elementary levels at Grades 4, 5 and 6. We want to ensure that any new expenditures of public education money are spent in the wisest and most effective place possible. I'll just repeat that we've been looking at national and international studies to see where our resources could be best used and have the most impact. Although in an ideal world, capping classroom sizes can have a small impact, scientifically it doesn't seem to show the improvement that huge expenditure of money would suggest. We just want to review and make sure that we're spending the money, the taxpayers' money, as carefully as possible and to make sure that it's in the best interest of students all across Nova Scotia. So we'll certainly take a close look at that.
MR. YOUNGER: Continuing with that theme - and I'm glad that you're looking into capping - one of the dilemmas that I've witnessed, myself, is where schools will be allocated a certain number of teachers by their board - ultimately the Department of Education but by the board as it comes down the pipe - allocated a certain number of teachers based on the number of students in the school. So when they divide that up and have to achieve the capping ratios, they sometimes end up with a whole lot of split classes. Obviously, every school is probably going to have a few of them, especially in urban areas, but sometimes they can be almost split grades all the way through. I know that Brookhouse had that problem until they, luckily, just recently, managed to pick up a couple of extra students.
The concern I have is, and I know it's not the policy now, but is your department looking at a way that if you don't cap the class and you say, we're going to allow 30 students, for example, in a Grade 5 class or a Grade 4 class, but it's okay to just have maybe 18 kids in another class if that avoids having a split class? At the moment what happens is they end up losing a teacher, they lose funding for a teacher in a lot of boards and when, in fact, it would be better to keep the funding for the teacher and have a smaller class and a larger class to at least avoid some of those split grades, I'm just wondering if that is being looked at or reviewed.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, no, I can't say that the issue of split classes is currently under review. A lot of those staffing decisions and decisions around split versus full classes are made, obviously, by the local school boards and the local school administrations. In some cases the school advisory councils have input and some discretionary power to actually go over one cap if they feel it's in the best interest of the children in that school and from that neighbourhood. So I know the boards consult and consider all the factors very carefully before they go into 20 of those arrangements. Again, I repeat, it's not the function of the Department of Education to micromanage or make some of those local decisions. We understand that sometimes the changing dynamics or teaching positions once the school year has started can be a very anxious time for students and parents. But I think for the most part these decisions are made very carefully and in the best interest of the children.
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[6:00 p.m.]
MR. YOUNGER: Mr. Chairman, I agree with the minister that on the one hand we don't want the department to micromanage and it is ultimately the decision of the board, but I think that the boards often find themselves forced into decisions based on the funding that they have available for themselves and I think the minister probably has experienced that herself, being a former school board member at one time and knows that. So I guess I would just encourage, if the minister's department is going to look at capping and the issues around that, then they also include a discussion and some thought around what's appropriate in terms of split classes and the numbers in terms of split classes, because I've seen in a number of schools in Dartmouth, for example, especially elementary where that can lead to behavioural issues and make it even more difficult. So I would leave that issue just asking that at least be considered if that review is going to go ahead.
My colleague, the member for Bedford-Birch Cove had talked about the per-student funding for boards and I know that there were some discussions about HRM being the lowest but having less busing. The minister had said that there appears to be no data to back up the argument that there are higher special needs in the HRM board compared to others which would balance it out. I wonder whether the minister is going to undertake to look into that.
I know that the Halifax board and the IWK have looked into that and, in fact, they have the highest number of ESL students by far, they also have the highest number of special needs students because many people are moving to the Halifax area, understandably, to be close to the resources that their children need at the IWK Health Centre, so there has been some qualitative research done around that.
I would agree with the minister that it is hard to give money on that basis, without having quantitative research, and I would just ask whether the minister's department would actually look into that situation, because it is an issue and supplementary funding sources from HRM are going to fund things now, which are funded in some other boards by mandatory education funding. So supplementary funding isn't going to what it really should be going to, which was supplemental things.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to respond to a couple of questions that the honourable member raised. Certainly, if we could get scientific proof of that, we would look at it, but I know in a previous Auditor General's audit of school boards, there was some indication that the Valley and Chignecto were claiming that they had the highest incidents of special need students. So if the honourable member has some information that would back up this argument, I certainly would take a serious look at it, it would be quite interesting.
You mentioned ESL, that's English as a Second Language, and approximately 80 per cent of our funding towards ESL programming goes to the Halifax Regional School Board,
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because most of those students are in the metro area, but that's a separate category from special needs students.
Getting back to earlier question about caps, I've just been reminded, and the honourable Interim Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party would know this for sure, that when caps were introduced by her government, they were fully funded, to the extent that $21 million extra dollars went into public school education to make sure that boards were adequately equipped to handle the caps that were designated by the government at that time. So it was a serious issue for the former government and they fully funded that initiative and they need to be given credit for making sure that boards had the resources to follow through on that requirement.
MR. YOUNGER: Mr. Chairman, I'm glad that you mentioned that 80 per cent of the ESL because the first thing I was going to mention was that apparently the Chamber of Commerce said 80 per cent of ESL students were in the HRM. I'm glad that there are two separate accounts, that's good.
To backtrack a bit, the capping, I do understand, Mr. Chairman, that they were fully funded. The irony in this appears to be that when you fully fund it, you don't, in my view anyway, you do not necessarily truly fully fund it because to cap those classes, and avoid having too many split classes, you could actually need more teachers than the numbers might indicate. This means that if you have funded an additional 20 teachers in a board, for example, in order to avoid a less than ideal number of capped classrooms, you might really need to have funded 24 teachers. It is just a subtle difference but it is something that I would ask to be looked at more than anything else, I'm not asking that we have the solution right now.
There are two more issues that I wanted to ask about prior to handing it over to my colleague. The first one was, and I guess if I had realized that I was going to be on Education tonight I would have hoped to have had this with me, but I was shown a document by a member of the Halifax Regional Board that I believe came from the Department of Education, which listed the funding that they were going to get and the categories such as books, how that funding broke down and how the department arrived at the funding for the board. What I want to know is, when the minister writes a cheque to a board, can they spend it on whatever they want, or is it broken down by category, so there is so much for textbooks and so much for EPAs and so forth?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I believe you're referring to the profile sheets. Usually boards receive those in the early Spring so that they can meet their contract deadlines and make their budget plans.
The bulk of it is an envelope within which they have a lot of discretion, but there are certain targeted funds for provincial initiatives such as special needs and caps, for example.
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Then there are some other categories, such as, I think, small schools and transportation, but the bulk of it would certainly give them a lot of flexibility in terms of their decision making. Keeping in mind, as we all know, that most school board funding goes to salaries. I'm not sure whether it is 80 or 85 per cent. When it comes down to it, they really don't have a lot of flexibility in terms of programming.
MR. YOUNGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Profile sheets, that's what they were called. Thank you.
The question I had about that was that there were sections on books, and I noticed that the allocation for books this year had been cut. There were a couple of categories, and as I say, if I had known that I was going to be up tonight on Education I would've hoped to have it with me, and I can always table it later for the minister to look at - or her staff might even have one there. It appeared that the allocation for things like books and learning needs and so forth had been cut, and that was of great concern to me.
I do understand that most of the money goes for salaries, and I assume the amount of money allocated for salaries is the actual amount that you're going to need for salaries, so I was not terribly concerned about that. Obviously, the sheet I saw was the one that they would have received in the Spring, and I'm wondering whether your government continued with those cuts in those areas or whether they restored the funding for books and other items like that in tabling this budget?
MS. MORE: I believe I covered some of the details of that in my opening remarks, and I mentioned that one of the areas where we did cut - this was a cut that was in the May budget as well, and it continues in the September budget - is the area of textbook allocation credit. We decreased the amount by $4 million.
Actually, there is another million cut from the department budget for books and learning resources as well, and although it is cut, it's really a deferment for one year, we hope. This was done - not with the agreement of school boards, but certainly the school boards were consulted as to where. The former government knew that it had to decrease the budget, so there were some discussions that went on about where the least harm would happen, and a one-year deferment of the $4 million for buying new textbooks was thought to be a preferred choice over some of the other possible cuts. So I believe that's what you're referring to, and it would have shown up as a decrease in funding for the various school boards.
MR. YOUNGER: Mr. Chairman, I know that any cut in education can be hard, and this one is particularly unfortunate, because I'm more aware of some schools in my own riding where parents are being asked to fork over money for textbooks in elementary - or maybe not so much textbooks as books that will be used in the classroom. I remember when I was in elementary we were asked to buy the odd book too, a novel that we might read, and
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it may not be official policy that you're supposed to be asked for that but it certainly happens. It is a shame that this situation gets created. My own office has received calls from a few parents asking for help to buy those, and I'm happy to do that for them, but it is a shame. I hope that it is just a deferment, but the challenge is that when I hear that a lot of the savings in this year's budget come from deferments, and when the Minister of Finance gave his opening address for the budget he did indicate that a lot of the funding in different departments, the savings were being found from deferments. Boy, that's going to create a major challenge next year if everything is being deferred for a year, because you're going to have these major cost pressures next year if suddenly everything that was deferred is not going to be deferred anymore, because they're not permanent savings. Things like the HST cut and that were examples that the Minister of Finance had given that were funded by those deferments, so I assume they're not suggesting that HST cuts are going to disappear next year.
I think the minister knows that it's challenging, and she recognizes that it's not an ideal situation and it's not fair to beat up on her for that, because it is what it is.
The last question I did want to ask is - and before I ask it, I know part of the answer is going to be that this is a contractual issue with the Nova Scotia Teachers Union, and so I guess the direction of my question before I ask it is - what are we doing to work with them to solve this problem? I know a lot of young teachers who are being dissuaded from staying in the public school system in Nova Scotia, in part because they find the rules are such that it's very hard to become a permanent teacher - at least, that's the way they find it.
I know my own wife, when she arrived here with three years teaching experience, chose not to enter the public system and instead is now the head of elementary at a local independent school, for the very reason that it would have taken her at least two or three years and probably longer than that. I know of a number of young teachers who have now been in the system five and six years, still trying to get to that magic two 100 per cent terms so that then they can go to the next round of job fairs and become a permanent.
That concerns me because we talk a lot about trying to keep young people in Nova Scotia, and so I'm wondering whether the department is looking at working with the Nova Scotia Teachers Union, because as I understand it, it is an issue in the Nova Scotia Teachers Union contract, is why this exists. I'm wondering whether your department is looking at working with the union to negotiate such a way that it's easier for young teachers to become permanent teachers in the system so that we don't lose them, because I've spoken to many who simply go elsewhere and choose not to stay here.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I'll quickly answer that question, then I want to go back to something else you talked about. There are approximately 1,000 new teachers looking for positions in the province each year, and part of the squeeze for them is the fact that we have a declining enrolment - I think it's 3 per cent a year. Some boards are a preferred work site
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over other areas, so there are even more applicants for some boards, so I'm not sure that there's a lot the Department of Education can do. Boards are encouraged to streamline the process, and certainly I think a lot of them have job fairs now as early in their staffing cycle as possible, and I do empathize. I think we all know very capable young, enthusiastic, bright teachers who want to become full-time teachers and don't have that opportunity.
[6:15 p.m.]
I also wanted to go back - if the honourable member is aware of any situations where textbooks are being paid for by students or families, I wish he would let me know, because certainly any program offered through the public school program curriculum is covered through funding from the Department of Education. I am aware of situations where parents and families support school libraries and other initiatives, but they should not be asked to provide textbooks used in any course provided under the public school program. Perhaps he could check into that and just let us know if that is actually the current situation.
MR. YOUNGER: Mr. Chairman, I'd be pleased to do that for the minister. I'll certainly get that information, and it sounds like it's mainly around the area of novels where a class has a novel reading assignment and instead of being able to provide enough of The Hobbit, or whatever they're reading - it was The Hobbit we read in Grade 6, that's why I remember that one - they ask if some parents can buy some copies that, hopefully, sometimes get donated to the class afterwards, but I will provide you that information.
Just to follow up, and this is my last question, Mr. Chairman, before I turn over the rest of my time to the member for Bedford-Birch Cove, on that contract issue - and I agree that we probably graduate too many teachers for the way the enrolment is at the moment although some of those teachers find positions elsewhere. I'm not sure if we need to look at that, but the concern - and there are definitely boards that people would rather be in and I would guess probably the HRM board is a popular one because it's in the city and young people often want to be in the city, I certainly don't deny that - the specific concern, and the job fairs are great, I think that made a difference in terms of finding placements, but you go there and you find a 25 per cent term, or a 50 per cent term, that's all great, but if I was a teacher and I ended up with a 50 per cent term and then I just had to substitute - or a better one, I get a 75 per cent term, so I've got 25 per cent of the year that I don't have a term for and so I substitute for the rest of that because I'm probably not going to find a 25 per cent term to fill in that year. Then I get a 100 per cent term the next year, but I still can't qualify to be a permanent teacher under the Teachers Union contract because I need two 100 per cent terms - or I assume four 50 per cent terms consecutively would apply, but they appear to have to be consecutive in the contract.
So it's probably a language issue, and so I would just like to see - I understand that there's not going to be jobs necessarily for everybody right now in that field, with declining enrolment, until we get more retirements - a situation that doesn't so discourage young
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people from wanting to stay here and teach as opposed to going elsewhere, because I really believe that once we lose them to elsewhere, whether it's Ontario, or Alberta - which also have declining enrolments, but they don't seem to have as hard a time becoming a permanent teacher - they probably don't come back because they start their families there and then they choose to stay. So, hopefully, that gives some clarity around the language issue that I'm referring to.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I just want to clarify - when I mentioned about 1,000 new teachers looking for positions, they weren't all educated here in Nova Scotia, probably only about 400 of those graduated from Nova Scotia in education programs. So obviously Nova Scotia is very attractive to potential teachers from elsewhere in Canada and it just creates a huge demand for positions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Bedford-Birch Cove.
MS. KELLY REGAN: Mr. Chairman, I'll just go back to the line of questioning I was on before the honourable Interim Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party took over. I was dealing with educational programming assistants, and I'm wondering, the number of students with EPAs across the province - I realize not all of them would have them full time, some of them would have a 0.8 to whatever - what would be the number of students with EPAs across the province, and also the number of EPAs?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, last year the provincial ratio of teacher assistants to the total student population was about one to 77 students. I'm not sure that I have the full number across all the school boards, but the provincial average was one teaching assistant to every 77 students.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, what determines whether a student will get an EPA - what are the criteria that enables a student to have an EPA with them?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, the department has some very general guidelines, but it does vary by school board. I think there was a movement some years ago away from specifying education assistants assigned to students to moving them to be teacher assistants assigned to a teacher or a classroom to help out with all the students in the class. Certainly those assistants would primarily be helping with the daily sort of physical needs of students with disabilities, and they would also help in terms of classroom management - there may be some children who can't sort of self-regulate their discipline and their behaviour. I'm thinking that those would be the two general categories that most of the TAs would be assisting with.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, that's not my understanding of it at all. In fact they are assigned to specific students and they may not be assigned to them full time - an EPA may have to look after a couple of students. But just from the cases I've dealt with in the last few
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months, my understanding is they are not teaching assistants, they are EPAs and they are assigned to specific children, it could be 0.8, it could be a full one - but that's not my understanding of it at all.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I should clarify - you're correct, I think school boards are using both models. There may be a special needs student who requires full-time attention and so the educational assistant would be assigned to that student - not that they don't also help out with the general class as they are able - and then there would be other situations where there may be two, three, four students who require occasional support in the classroom and then often that teacher assistant would be assigned to the classroom or the teacher to help out with the general class situation.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, the Education Department's Special Education Policy manual states that: "A right to an appropriate education means the fundamental educational human right of every individual to have their unique learning needs responded to on an individual basis." I'm wondering, would the minister agree that this is a goal of our educational system?
MS. MORE: I'm having some difficulty in responding to that - of course, that's what we would like for every student in our public schools but, just as within a family, there are restrictions of time, energy, and resources. What might appear to be an ideal situation in a school classroom isn't always necessarily achievable, but that would certainly be our objective and that's what we would aim for.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to point out that a right is not a preference - a right is a right. So I just want to make the point that if this is in fact at the very beginning of our Special Education Policy manual, it should in fact be adhered to - and I will come back to that later on.
The lack of life-readiness skills training being learned by those students who are 18 to 21 who have EPAs, or who remain in the school system, my concern is what are those kids supposed to do afterwards? We have students who are staying in the system, who have mental and physical challenges, they stay in the school and then when they turn 21 they go out into the world and there's nothing for them. There is no program that helps them get ready for the challenges in life, and I'm wondering if you could speak to this - are there any plans to change that to give them life skills training at this time?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased that the honourable member has raised this issue. Certainly there are two excellent models of sort of transition programming that are available in Nova Scotia - not enough, I agree, but certainly worthy of replication and expansion. If I may be permitted, I'd like to give a little bit of detail. One of them is called the Access to Community Employment and Education. It's more commonly referred to as
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the ACEE program and that's what I know it under, and it's currently housed within the Akerley Campus of the community college system.
The funding is a partnership between the Departments of Education and Community Services and also the Halifax Regional School Board. It's being managed through the Independent Living Resource Centre and it provides post-secondary transition programming and support to 24 young adults in the metro area. I had the privilege of attending their opening, and I also know a couple of the graduates from that program and I have to say that they're doing extremely good work. Both of the graduates that I know have become very productive citizens in our province - and one of them is working two part-time jobs and just making a real contribution to himself and to the province.
The other model is the one in Port Hawkesbury, the Strait to Work initiative, and it was developed following the successful pilot of ACEE and it provides a similar transition program at the community college there in the Strait Area Campus. It's a similar partnership among the two provincial departments and the community college and the Strait Regional School Board. It began in September 2007, and so it has just started its third year of operation. Those are examples of very creative, positive, innovative programming that help in transitioning students with special needs into their adult life, and often they lead to successful employment.
[6:30 p.m.]
There is also a guide that's available to school boards around the province called Transition Planning for Students with Special Needs: The Early Years Through Adult Life. It's currently in use in the other school boards.
The government and Department of Education certainly recognize that more effort has to be spent on this and we've got some excellent models that are working very well and are having a tremendous impact on the lives of the young people and families that are currently enrolled, and we would be delighted to expand this as resources allow.
MS. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, I guess that my big concern is we keep hearing about a pilot project here and a great model there, and it seems to me that whether your child gets an adequate education in this province is kind of the luck of the draw. If you have a child with special needs or a gifted child, whether or not your child is going to get the kind of education where we talked about the "fundamental educational human right of every individual to have their unique learning needs responded to on an individual basis", it seems to me like it's a crapshoot.
MS. MORE: Certainly, when we start new programming, we have to test the model and make sure it works, we're not going to start something in every board everywhere without having proof that it's a successful or effective investment of public money.
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Unfortunately, with a declining enrolment and the economic situation that we're currently in, we don't have the resources to be able to expand these programs as quickly as we would like. I would like to suggest that our challenge in Nova Scotia over the next number of years is going to be protecting the current amount of money that we have for public education because as fewer and fewer families have children directly in the public school system and they're more preoccupied with concerns about health and retirement and pensions, it may be that we're going to have to fight even harder to keep the current resources available.
So, certainly, my government understands that access and equity are important principles and we will do our best to ensure that as many of these programs are available as possible for the students who need them. But I think we can't work in education outside the context of the rest of the world and the reality is that money is very tight and despite the fact that some of these initiatives have been proven successful, it's going to take some time to free up the money to be able to support their expansion.
I appreciate the honourable member's interest in this issue, it's one that a lot of us share and it certainly impacts so directly on the quality of life of these young people and their families. I'm sure all of us can put a face to this issue because we all know families that would benefit from this programming and we just want to ensure that we will be able to expand it.
MS. REGAN: I appreciate your interest in these kinds of programs as well, minister. I would like to move on now to the tuition support program and I'm wondering what are the government's plans for this program, is it going to continue?
MS. MORE: Yes, as I explained earlier, the fifth year has been provided so that there is no disruption in educational programming to, I think, it's approximately 23 families who have a young person in their family who left the fourth year of tuition support and were requesting a fifth year. I'm still reviewing the recommendations from that special education committee.
Certainly we haven't come up with decisions on everything but as a matter of principle, my government is very interested in enhancing the supports and services for special needs, especially students with learning disabilities and autism and other conditions, of increasing the variety, the continuum of supports and services for those students within the public school system. So, my department is looking very carefully at how we can enhance those programs to allow all students to be served as well as possible within the public school program but rather than do anything prematurely, we've extended the funding for those 23 families for a fifth year of tuition in order to do a proper review and we will see what happens at the end of that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I would remind the member that she has about 12 minutes left.
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MS. REGAN The number of first time students at the three schools that teach students who have learning disabilities that received supplementary funding dropped by more than one-half from last year. My understanding is that it dropped from 53 to 25. These are the first year students coming in. Has there been a change in the criteria for a student to receive the tuition support program?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, no, there hasn't been any change in the criteria. I would like to assume that fewer families have asked for tuition support in year one and perhaps they feel that they're receiving the service they need from the public school system.
MS. REGAN: My understanding is, no, that's not the case, that there were a lot who were denied. My question is, if there was no change in the criteria, how could you account for that precipitous drop where you have 53 per cent fewer coming in?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I'm told that most people who apply get accepted. So we will have to check into that, as to why the number of applicants may be down for year one. I don't have the information with me but we'll certainly table it as soon as it is available.
MS. REGAN: I would hate to think that we're saving money on the backs of children with learning disabilities. What I'm hearing is that some school boards are reluctant to do an Individualized Program Plan, an IPP. You have to have one of those to be considered for this funding. So my concern is that, because there is a desire on the part of either the department or school boards not to have children going off into a private institution but to stay within the public system, these kids are actually missing out on the possibility of having education that's appropriate to their needs.
When studies show that 75 per cent of inmates at federal penitentiaries have learning disabilities, that 85 per cent have reading deficiencies, I say to you that this is a necessity for many children. Simply put, we can pay now in the Education budget or we can pay later in Community Services, in Justice and in Health. Parents are telling me that their children are not receiving enough assistance in public schools, they're getting no remediation.
The three schools for learning disabilities - Landmark East, Churchill Academy, Bridgeway Academy, teach children what their learning disabilities are, how they manifest themselves and how to work around their learning disabilities. They don't cure them but they do teach them how to manage them. This is not always happening in the school system. It's not because teachers don't want to help children, or they don't recognize learning disabilities, they simply do not have the time, in many cases, or in some cases they don't have the advanced training to do this, that's necessary to remediate.
A half an hour a week for resource isn't going to cut it for kids who have reached junior high and can't read or are reading four grades below level. A half an hour a week is not going to do it for kids who get to high school, who can't plan their work because they
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don't even know what a calendar is; they don't know how many days are in a week; they don't know how many months are in a year. So, I'm wondering, has the minister visited any of the three schools that are set up to deal with learning disabilities?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, actually, I was at a fundraiser at Churchill in June, I believe, and had a chance to meet the staff. I have no evidence that the situation is the way that you're suggesting and I would like to check into it. It's very difficult to comment on something that can't be confirmed. We can check on the figures.
I also wanted to mention that I understand the pressures on families who have children with learning disabilities or autism. I can empathize. I actually have individuals within my own family with some of those conditions, so I can certainly empathize, and I understand that they want to have the best possible situation and the best possible progress for their young people. The difficulty in the current arrangement is that with only three designated schools we don't have equitable access for all families across this province. Two of the schools are located in Dartmouth and one down in the Valley, so if you're fortunate to live in the vicinity of those schools or can pay for boarding at Landmark East, you're in a different situation. Somehow we need to be enhancing and expanding the programs and services within the public school system so that we have the best possible services for as many children who need those services across the province.
So I understand the honourable member's concern, and - there was something else I was going to mention, and it's just flipped out of my mind, but if it comes back I'll add it on to another answer. Thank you.
MS. REGAN: I would ask the minister not to cut assistance to children who are currently receiving it or who need to receive it, because we're trying to make a point: that there isn't enough access. There certainly isn't enough access, but we should make sure that we're not cutting it off from the people who already have it or who can at least access it. We should be expanding these programs.
When I visited Bridgeway Academy they left with me some key points that they asked me to pass along to you, so I'm going to do that now.
We need to identify children who have learning disabilities when they are younger. If we catch the problem in the first couple of years of school, the less the damage to the children's self esteem, the less developed their avoidance strategies will be, the quicker they can return to public schools. In fact, studies show that if a child hasn't learned to read by Grade 3, the probability is that they're not even going to graduate.
We need to continue the tuition support program and make it known. I was frankly disappointed to hear that a government official had told administrators from the school that it was not realistic to expect the Public Service to support the private alternative. This
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government official said they would do nothing to promote the competition. I didn't think this was a competition - I thought this was allowing our kids to get an education and to achieve their best. These children need help. It's not about a competition, it's about getting them the help they need.
We also need to augment the training that student teachers get in university. They need to learn more about learning disabilities, remediation, and accommodation. There was a story that the administrators told me that gave me a good idea of what these children go through when they're in the public system and when their needs are not being met.
[6:45 p.m.]
Imagine what it would be like to go to work each day and to not understand what was expected of you, the instructions for your tasks, or when they're supposed to be finished, and then your fellow workers and your bosses and everybody is telling you that you're stupid, you're lazy, and if you just tried harder you'd get it. That is what these children are dealing with. Do you think you would want to go to work? Do you think that you might to try to avoid work? Because that is what is happening for these children. Now this year 50 per cent fewer of them are going to have their unique learning needs, as we refer to it in our handbook, responded to on an individual basis. That's happening under your watch.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I had the privilege of meeting with staff and board members from the Learning Disabilities Association of Nova Scotia just a couple of weeks ago. They reviewed some similar information, but they certainly didn't raise the issue of fewer people being accepted in the first year of the tuition support program. They highlighted an interesting after-school program that - I remember one of the sites actually is in my own constituency at Southdale-North Woodside. They were just telling me a little bit about the programming and the need to expand that. I have to say, I was very impressed with the outcomes experienced by the young people who attended that after-school program. It seemed to be very effective, it provided a lot of confidence and coping mechanisms and the parents involved - I didn't get a chance to talk to any of the students directly - but the parents seemed to be very supportive. It sounds like the kind of activity that we would like to see moved into the Schools Plus programs around the province.
Obviously this association is very committed to achieving the best possible outcomes for learning disabled children, youth and adults. I also had the privilege to hear the life experience of a young man, who now operates a very successful business in the metro area, who has learning disabilities. Just hearing his struggle to find his niche in life and a career was very awe inspiring.
I recognize the sincerity and the well-intentioned efforts of the association, the various designated private schools and the families involved. Certainly the department and
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the public school system represented by the school boards want to do everything possible to make life better for those individuals. I understand your comments . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The time allotted for this period has ended. We will take a short, very short recess.
[6:48 p.m. The committee recessed.]
[6:55 p.m. The committee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
The honourable member for Yarmouth.
HON. RICHARD HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to stand in my place this evening to ask some questions on education that affect my riding and affect Nova Scotia at large. I know we have a number of issues, but the first question I have for the minister, through you, Mr. Chairman, is would she give me an update on the Yarmouth High School?
MS. MORE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, Yarmouth High School was originally approved in 2003 as a renovation, as the honourable member appreciates, and it was converted to a new high school since then. It's scheduled for completion in September 2011 at the cost of $30 million. The site selection is complete and the Town of Yarmouth has donated land for the new school. A request for proposals for consultant services has closed, and submissions from seven design teams are being evaluated. So everything is on schedule.
MR. HURLBURT: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I thank the minister for the answer, but my community, the educators, our students, and our town council are wondering when that tender is going to be awarded. I know it closed on September 3rd - you're doing the evaluation, I think you said you had seven proposals. When do you feel that will be awarded?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I can only give a general answer because Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal is managing the project, but I suspect within the next couple of weeks that will be awarded.
MR. HURLBURT: I think "T" comes up after "E," so the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal will be up later on estimates and I will ask him the same question. Anyhow, I thank you for that, minister. In my community, as you know, our high school is busting at the seams with the student population, and this has been a long-going project. My community stepped up to the plate on day one and donated the land to the department, and my community at large has been very supportive of this school, and I'm very pleased. So in your estimation, will we be seeing sod-breaking for the Spring of 2010?
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MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, the opening date, as I indicated earlier, is scheduled for September 2011. We don't foresee any change in that opening date.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering if the minister would table that document so I could have a copy of it. Anyhow, thank you for that, minister. I appreciate knowing that your government supports the new high school in Yarmouth, and I can assure you that the mayor, the council, and the citizens of Yarmouth will thank you also. It's well-needed in our community.
[7:00 p.m.]
If I may now go to the community colleges, I would like to ask the minister, what are they proposing to do if there is a strike? I'm asking the question because there are two campuses - one in Yarmouth and one in Shelburne - that affect Southwest Nova, and as there is across our province, but you know, just in those two campuses there are approximately 700 full-time students plus all the part-time students who go at night, to the night classes and what have you, and there are approximately 90 educators in that system, just in the tri-county area. I would like to know what the contingency plan is to look after these students who have gone back to take their secondary education. It's a big challenge for people who are mid-age to go back into the education system and to take a new trade. To have a disruption of that halfway through their year - and not even halfway through the year - I want to know, what is the plan for those students so they're not disrupted or displaced if there is a strike?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the honourable member's concern if there is a work stoppage, and it's certainly one that's shared by all MLAs in this House. Neither I nor the department are the employer so I don't have any details about a contingency plan. Depending on what happens over the next couple of days, I am scheduled to meet with the board of governors at 6:30 p.m. on Wednesday, to talk about a number of different issues. So I can't answer that question, I don't have that information, but certainly, I'm fully aware of the impact that a work stoppage would have on students, their families, and their employers, both current and potential, as well as the community college staff. I'm just hopeful that negotiations will continue, or restart, and that reasonable people will understand the tough situation that the province finds itself in and will come to a resolution that will be in the best interests of both sides, but particularly for the students at the college.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your sincerity, minister. I was wondering if the minister would have an undertaking to report back to this Legislature on Thursday after a meeting with the board of governors?
MS. MORE: I can't commit to that because my introductory meetings with the school boards and the university presidents and the community college are just that - a chance to develop some kind of a working relationship. I've encouraged them to feel free to tell me anything they want to in confidence, so I'm not sure it would be appropriate for me to report
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back. Also, because the Department of Education is not the employer in this situation, I think that those questions would be better asked of the president and chair of the board of governors.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr Chairman, I'm not quite clear here. The funding to the community colleges comes from your department, Madam Minister, and I've asked for the contingency plan for the Nova Scotia Community College, that's all we would like to have on this side, to know what that plan is if there happens to be a strike and, heaven forbid, let's hope and pray that there's not a strike. That's what we're asking for, Mr. Chairman, is just what is that plan in the event of a strike?
MS. MORE: I think the best I can offer to the honourable member at this point is that if there is a work stoppage, I would certainly encourage the president of the community college system and the board of governors to release their contingency plan, and certainly, once that's released, I would be prepared to bring it back to the House.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, am I correct then in assuming that the union has committed that they would give 48 hours notice before they would go on a legal strike, if they did go on strike?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I understand that the NSTU is going to announce on Thursday what their strike intentions are, and if there's a work stoppage, I think they'll be announcing the date at that time.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister and let's all hope and pray that we do not have a strike and that our students stay in the classrooms where they should be. As I said earlier, middle-aged people going back and upgrading their education is a tough enough job anyhow. They have families and it's going to put extra stress and strain on families. So let's hope that it all works out and we can resolve the issue. It all comes down to dollars. Anyhow, we'll see what happens there.
I'd like to now ask the minister, what is her view, and her government's view, of the funding formula for school boards?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, we had an earlier discussion about the Hogg funding formula for school boards and if I may be permitted I'd like to just repeat some of the information I brought into the discussion at that point. In my tour of the province over the summer and September to meet with the eight school boards - the seven regional and one provincial - occasionally the topic of the funding formula did come up. As you can imagine, the boards who felt that they were benefiting from it were very supportive of the current formula and those who felt they might do better were encouraging a review or improvements.
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I have to say that as minister, and I suspect my government would support this position, we don't see any purpose in reviewing the formula until there is considerable additional money to be added to the public education funding pot. The reason for that is that right now there's some stability in terms of funding across the province for school boards. If you change the formula with restricted funding, some boards are going to suffer drastically. We can't necessarily foresee which ones those would be but I suspect it would be the ones with the most rapid decline in enrolment.
As money becomes available, we'll try to tweak and improve some of the pressure points that boards have identified, but for the most part, boards seem to be indicating relative stability with the current funding formula.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the minister, have you discussed this at the Cabinet Table about the funding formula for school boards since you've been Minister of Education?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, as the honourable member knows full well, I'm not able to talk about what is discussed at the Cabinet Table, but certainly I will go on the record to say that public education and post-secondary education are very important priorities for my government. We will ensure that, as our financial situation improves over the next few years, due consideration will be given to improving the funding available for both post-secondary and public education.
MR. HURLBURT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and thank you minister, I knew that was going to be the answer I was going to get, but thank you anyway. Let me ask this question, have any of your Cabinet colleagues talked to you about the funding formula for school boards in the Province of Nova Scotia?
MS. MORE: Well I suppose the honourable member is suggesting there might be a different code of conduct around individual discussions with Cabinet colleagues versus what is discussed around the Cabinet Table. I think I feel comfortable in saying that all my Cabinet colleagues, as all my caucus colleagues, would have a very strong interest in supporting public education to the best of our ability and as resources allow. Certainly we're also on record as trying to live within our means, and as my honourable colleague fully appreciates, sometimes it's a very tough balancing act. We have a lot of important programs and services provided to the citizens of this province and we will give, both informally and formally, very close and careful consideration to all those needs and priorities. Thank you.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, no, I'm not suggesting that there be a split in your caucus or your Cabinet. I was asking a pointed question, have any of your Cabinet colleagues asked you a question as the Minister of Education on the funding formula for school boards in the Province of Nova Scotia? That was my question. Is that clear? I'm not asking if there
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is a divide, I'm just asking, have Cabinet colleagues asked you the direct question on the funding formula for school boards in the Province of Nova Scotia?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, no, I wasn't suggesting that the honourable member was talking about a divide. All I was referring to was sort of the code of conduct as a Cabinet Minister, as he would well recognize, that we can't comment on anything that's discussed around the Cabinet Table. I guess I was just making, obviously, a very poor joke about whether or not there would be a different, sort of, code in terms of repeating or commenting on private discussions that I might have had with Cabinet colleagues outside of the Cabinet Room. That's all I was talking about.
I'm a little confused about where the honourable member is going with this questioning. I can't say that most of my caucus colleagues, if I may refer to them in that more general sense, have talked about the formula. Certainly there has been a lot of discussion between individual members of caucus and myself around adequate funding and about concern over school reviews and school closures, concern about adequate programming for students, concern about working conditions of teachers and other staff within school boards. All of that together reflects on the adequacy of the funding formula, so in that roundabout way, I guess they have discussed with me their concerns about adequacy of funding for public education in the province and their strong support that we infuse public education and libraries and post-secondary institutions with the necessary resources to provide those services and programs as soon as possible.
[7:15 p.m.]
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the minister, you'll find out where I'm going next. On June 24, 2008, Sterling Belliveau had asked for a prompt review of funding allocation directed towards the Tri-County Regional School Board. Tri-County Regional School Board's budget allotment for 2008 just wasn't enough, says Belliveau. That was June 24, 2008. July 29, 2008, Shelburne MLA Sterling Belliveau says one-time $500,000 grant for the Tri-County Regional School Board is welcome news but an evaluation of the Hogg formula is still needed to ensure it treated all Nova Scotia school boards as fairly as it was intended. November 4, 2008, the fact that the Tri-County Regional School Board was allocated additional funds following a provincial budgetary allotment and an order to bring in a balanced budget clearly shows the formula is flawed, says Belliveau. Why should our students have less opportunities, asked Belliveau. It's simply unfair.
I'm asking the minister this evening, is she willing to look at the formula as one of her colleagues has asked for a review of the formula?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Could I ask the honourable member to table those documents please.
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MS. MORE: I find it interesting that the honourable member is raising this issue because he was in Cabinet, it was his government that actually brought in the Hogg formula and I don't remember, I may be corrected, but I don't remember hearing any discussion about a review during those 10 years. But I will say that in 2008-09, when the Tri-County Board explained that they were having financial pressures, an additional $500,000 was added to their allotment that year and I believe they actually ended up with a small surplus.
Now, this year, I have to say the board has a little different perspective of the Hogg formula because they are now benefiting from the 2 per cent declining enrolment cushion that was provided under the Hogg formula and this year they're getting a $2.4 million extra as a result of that cushion. So their situation, now that they're benefiting from some of the transition pieces that were put in to help smaller boards deal with significant enrolment decline, I think you will find that they are benefiting more from some of those precautionary factors that had been allowed to work their way into the formula.
I thank you for your concern. Certainly when I met - and I believe the Tri-County Regional School Board was the first school board that I met with back in June - and it was a very productive meeting. The members were very appreciative, I think, of the strong working relationship that they had with the department and the deputy minister, in particular, and asked a lot of excellent questions. Obviously they're a hard-working board and do great work. They raised some other issues not related to the funding formula, certainly their strong interest in improving their French as a second language, or immersion programming, and whatnot, but I was very impressed with their work ethic and their knowledge about the issues. They seem relatively pleased, I would say, with the way that the Hogg funding formula for school boards is now treating them.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, I can tell the minister and all members of the House that the Tri-County Board has said, and the chairman of the Tri-County Board has mentioned it many times in public statements, that she never had access to so many ministers since she had Richard Hurlburt as her MLA in Yarmouth. (Interruptions)
So we had numerous meetings. We had meetings at the Department of Education with the full board and all the members from the Tri-County area were present at the meeting. We had the minister come to Yarmouth, to a public meeting, we had the deputy minister come and we talked about the formula. He explained how the formula was working. I was asking a question, the question was directed to the minister about one of her colleagues, does she feel that the formula is flawed and if it is, are they going to change the formula?
I never said that the formula was flawed and I never, ever, ever once said that the people of Yarmouth were being mistreated. I said that the Department of Education had been very open and met with the Tri-County Board every time they asked. So my question, again, to the minister, are you looking at the formula and are you going to change the formula?
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MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I don't mind repeating the answer . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. There is a little too much chatter in here right now. Can you please take your conversations outside the Chamber.
The honourable Minister of Education has the floor.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, we've talked about this issue a couple of times already today and I'll repeat myself, if I may - my government has no intention of opening up the Hogg funding formula at present because it would be ill-advised to do it until we can infuse a lot of new money into the formula, otherwise it would rock the stability of some of the smaller boards or some of the boards that have unique challenges, and that just doesn't seem like a good investment of time and money. But when the situation improves economically, as we do with all aspects of public education in this province, there are regular periods of review on all issues, but certainly I don't foresee that happening in the next couple of years.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for her answer, because that's what I believe. I believe the formula is working and I think that all of our students are getting the best we can afford across this province. Should we have more? By all means we should have more.
Madam Minister, I'll move on now, but I would like to have the view of you and your government on rural schools - what is going to be your policy on rural schools?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, as the honourable member realizes, there is a funding mechanism within the Hogg funding formula for school boards that recognizes the special challenges for boards who have a number of small rural schools and extra funding is provided for that.
I have to give credit to his government for the school review consultation that was done a few years ago around the province - and we actually recently brought together people who had been affected by that new policy, I think particularly from the Halifax Regional School Board and the South Shore District School Board, who have actually gone through a cycle of that provincial school review policy. We brought in the two former co-chairmen of the consultation to sit in on that meeting, and apparently there was very good discussion, a few small recommendations how it could be improved.
So it is an ongoing, evolving process and we expect that between the dedicated funding for small schools and the revision of the school review policy, and also a recognition that some rural school boards are really the lifeblood of their community - they may be the only public building in that community and if there is some way that we can encourage shared use of that facility and maintain a quality education program for the students in that
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community, as well as related programs and services across all three levels of government or across provincial departments, that's certainly a model that we will look at.
The particular challenge comes into play when we're looking at small high schools, when we want to ensure that the students have the core selection they need to compete in the international field, not just in their local community. So sometimes boards have tough decisions balancing the need for a quality, comprehensive program at the high school level and also the workload on the teachers involved in those small facilities with the best interests and whether that's the best investment of money. But certainly all of these things come into play and we're supportive of small community schools, and we will do everything within our ability to ensure that they remain viable when practical and when they serve the best interests of the students in that community.
MR. HURLBURT: Thank you, Madam Minister, that is music to my ears. I believe that keeping our rural schools open is a key to a lot of communities - and I don't think that bigger is better. I can give you one instance in my own riding of Carleton where we have elementary kids who come from way back of East Kempt and North Kempt, and if they had closed that school there would have been another hour of busing - and those children now have to get up at 7:00 a.m. to get on the bus.
So, Madam Minister, I appreciate your comments and I look forward to working with you - and if there is anything that I can do, or my caucus can do, to help keep rural schools open, we definitely would support it, I tell you.
Now I would like to ask the minister, the policy on busing for elementary children - is that a school board issue or is it a policy that is set by the Department of Education?
MS. MORE: Thank you for the question. As the honourable member probably knows, there are some general guidelines that are provincial guidelines, and the school boards - these are minimum distances - are able to provide courtesy busing, and they may have different guidelines or criteria or distances. The department did initiate a review of busing guidelines. I guess in terms of its status, I haven't made a response to that yet - I'm still reviewing the report and I don't anticipate that the minimums will change or be greater distances. Obviously we would like to make them shorter down the road, but I don't foresee any immediate change.
MR. HURLBURT: How many minutes left, Mr. Chairman?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Two minutes, until 7:31 p.m.
MR. HURLBURT: I would like to discuss this further, Madam Minister, maybe we can do it over a coffee or something, about the busing for elementary students, that's what my concern is.
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I would like to ask the minister - the allotment for teachers' assistants or PSAs - or whatever the terminology is, every board has a different terminology - how are they earmarked for each board? Is there a certain amount for each board, or is it as a need for each board? I know there is a shortage in the Tri-County District Board and I would just like to know how the funding formula comes for the student assistants or teacher assistants or the PSAs?
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, the Department of Education funds one teacher assistant to 104 students, but the average ratio across the boards is about 1 to 77. So, obviously, boards are putting more money into teaching assistants than provided by the provincial budget.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The time allotted for debate in the Committee on Supply has now expired.
The honourable Government Leader.
HON. FRANK CORBETT: Mr. Speaker, I move we now rise and report progress.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is carried.
[ The committee adjourned at 7:31 p.m.]
