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HALIFAX, TUESDAY, APRIL 22, 2003
COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY
4:35 P.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Brooke Taylor
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Government House Leader.
HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, would you please call the estimates of the Minister of Education.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will continue with the estimates for the Department of Education. The NDP caucus, I believe, has approximately 19 minutes left.
The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto.
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Mr. Chairman, when we left off the other day, I was asking some questions of the honourable minister. I think at this point I've really covered the main topics that I'm interested in discussing with him and so for the remainder of the time I'm going to invite my colleague, the member for Cape Breton Centre, to continue the questioning.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton Centre.
MR. FRANK CORBETT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable minister for making himself available for estimates today. Mr. Minister, there are a few areas I want to discuss with you while we have roughly 18 minutes or so. I think to no surprise to you, it will probably be the Macdonald Complex and so on and what happened in and around there. No doubt you're aware because you have met, as the deputy has, with a community group representing the students at the Macdonald Complex and the disaster that happened there.
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For those in attendance who don't know what happened at that Macdonald Complex, that school in late October, early November of last year, had to be closed because of subsidence, subsidence caused by years of underground mining and subterranean mining in and around that facility. So I guess my first question to you is, Mr. Minister, when were you first made aware of what was going on at the Macdonald Complex and what was your reaction to try to resolve that problem?
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Education.
HON. ANGUS MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I was made aware of the situation shortly after I was - I had previous knowledge as a result of being in the House, but I was briefed by department officials shortly after I was sworn in as minister.
MR. CORBETT: Mr. Chairman, I know the minister didn't go after part two which is what did he then do when he was apprised of this situation, so maybe I will give him a bit better of a lead into that question. There is a fairly large school of thought that the federal government, by way of having the coal leases in that area and having allowed those former working mines to flood, bears a great deal of responsibility for the subsidence to that location. So I guess what I want to ask the minister more directly is, what has your department done in conjunction with the federal government to see the amount of onus lying on their behalf with regard to the Macdonald Complex?
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member can appreciate this is a problem that is well beyond simply the site of the Macdonald Complex. It's a problem that potentially encompasses a lot of areas within the Province of Nova Scotia and relative to discussions with the federal government, and we have also had discussions with the Department of Justice of the province, we are working with Intergovernmental Affairs relative to communications that take place with Ottawa with respect to the problems referenced by the honourable member.
MR. CORBETT: Mr. Chairman, you know, that is fine and I would say that would be an adequate answer if indeed that had been somewhere in the middle of an unpopulated area that the ground had suddenly fallen under by the weight of a subterranean mine being washed away, but this is a case that I think has a great deal of urgency. It's not one to say, well, you know, we're going to send envoys back and forth between Halifax and Ottawa and talk about who's responsible here. Clearly, Mr. Minister, you've taken the position that you will not be building a school in the Town of Dominion - you've said that publicly, I believe you probably even have said it in this House - but what we have here is a total disregard for the importance of what a school means to a community.
Now, you can sit here and make some points I would agree with like the fact there is an abundance of classrooms - no argument - that they're in relatively close proximity - really no argument - but that's taking the very, very narrow view that education costs the
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province money. It's not education as an investment. It's education on the cheap, if you will, not looking at what a school means to the broader community, what it means for the community to use it as an access point. We've seen the downside of schools, particularly P3 schools, where communities quite literally cannot use them after hours because of restrictions by the third-party owner, Mr. Chairman. So what I'm saying is, why are you looking at this only in the very narrow context of money, not at what it would give to the overall community? There will be really little or no growth.
We've just heard the Minister of Economic Development telling us, you know, that we're just ready to turn the corner of prosperity in industrial Cape Breton, but what happens there with all the small businesses closing, what happens to your perspective when a previous Tory Government allowed that school to be built there? How do you put them all together and reconcile it and say that is the best for education for that community? Can you reconcile that for me, Mr. Minister?
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, the member says to me how can I put it only in the context of money and the fact of the matter is that all of us, regardless of what department of government we're responsible for, must operate within a budget that's allocated to us. That is, of course, what all of this discussion is about, the budgetary requests of departments relative to the operational needs. There will, of course, be a motion brought before the House with respect to the capital needs of the government and in that particular motion, of course, items such as the construction of schools would be discussed or it would be appropriate to discuss them. Not that it's inappropriate for you to question me on it now, but I'm just simply making the link that the capital needs of government are very important and very significant with respect to what it is that we can and cannot do.
[4:45 p.m.]
Our responsibility as a department is to ensure that there are adequate educational facilities available to the students of this province. In the case of Dominion, it's obviously a very unfortunate occurrence that has occurred there, but those students, their needs are currently being cared for and they will be cared for into the future. I can also remind the honourable member that we are committed to working with the school board to ensure that there continues to be, in operation, an elementary school in Dominion. It is operating now; we hope that it will be able to continue to operate into the future.
I will also point out to the honourable member that shortly after becoming minister, I did have a brief telephone conversation with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister, who represents that area. I've made an effort to get back to him with respect to a discussion we've had, and that was prior to a meeting that he was going to in the area. I did not make contact with him in terms of getting back to him.
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My responsibility and the responsibility of the government is to ensure that there are facilities for the students to attend school. Those facilities are available, we will ensure that they will continue to be available in the future and we will do our best to continue to look after the educational needs of those students.
MR. CORBETT: It disturbs me when you use words like adequate. I always thought we strove to be a bit better than just adequate, Mr. Chairman. I guess that's the defining point of this government - as long as it's adequate. We're not going to be silly and strive for excellence, we're going to strive to be adequate. To me, adequate certainly has a connotation of being just passing. If we can get people at 51, we'll be much better than striving for 80s and 90s.
What you did tell me, Mr. Minister, very sorrowfully, is that it's about money. It isn't about community. It's about a blatant cost factor. It's not a matter of trying to find the best dollars to fit, it's about just straight - we have $5 and here's how we're going to split it. That's a shame because that's not the type of province that I thought I was brought up in, nor my family, nor certainly my children. I thought I was brought up in a province that was there to help people when they were in need and recognize the real problems that beset them. This government is clearly a straight dollars and cents - you lost your school to the tragedy of subsidence, so what? Had that same school been lost on a Halloween prank, if someone burned it to the ground, we would be in the midst of reconstructing that school.
Yet this government in no way sees the value of keeping that school. It says we have excess seating capacity in another school, therefore it's going to go that way. It's a very sad day indeed, Mr. Minister, that you would stand in your place and tell us that schools are about dollars, it's not about education, students, community or future work responsibilities, it's nothing but the green. I'm quite disappointed in that, Mr. Minister, to say the least.
There's another point on this. Probably, in another arena, we would use culpability with it, and that is that it was a previous Tory Government that agreed to build that school there, that did not bother to listen to the architectural misgivings in talking about the structure there. Yet, you don't want to revisit that. What you want to do is put young children on a bus and send them out of their community.
So I want to go back to you, Mr. Minister, and say, from an historical context, have you looked at that report and do you concur that that was the best place to build that school?
MR. MACISAAC: I want to thank the honourable member for his questions. He raised a number of issues in his preamble leading up to his question. The facts, as I understand them, and I can hardly be held accountable for decisions that were taken long before I became minister - were that the community very much wanted a school to be built next to the existing elementary school that was there. The decision was taken with respect to that. Should there have been more work done with respect to investigating the issue of
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subsidence? Hindsight is a great teacher, and we have a responsibility, now, to ensure that the students who are attending school from Dominion have good facilities in which to attend school.
We are taking the action that's required to make the existing facilities available to those students. We are taking long-term action, working with the school board to ensure that those students have good facilities in which to attend school. The honourable member used the word "greed" with respect to the basis of our decision. I would ask him to consider the use of that word in a context when we have inherited a $500 million shortfall with respect to our deferred maintenance in schools.
What schools in the province is the honourable member suggesting that we not repair? We have capital requirements throughout the province, and the honourable member is not suggesting to us which areas of the province should not receive the schools which they require in order that another school would be built in his community despite the fact that the students who would attend that school are currently being housed in another good facility and they will continue to be housed in good facilities in and around the community.
So, it's very easy for the honourable member to say simply, find $8 million or $10 million or whatever the number would be and go ahead and build the school, do that at a time when there are existing facilities which are not being occupied fully, which can house the students from Dominion and look after their educational needs and look after them very adequately. That is the decision that we have to take here. I stand by that decision because I believe, from an educational perspective and from a sound fiscal management perspective, it is a good decision for those students and for the people of this province.
MR. CORBETT: Okay. I guess I'm saying that you have not done your job properly. You've not pursued the federal government with as much vigour as you should have. It's a whole lack of concern for the people in that community and, Mr. Minister, you should be ashamed of yourself for not trying to act in a reasonable manner to help to protect a school for that community. It's an essential part of that community.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The member's time and the NDP's time at this time has expired. We will move to the Liberal caucus.
The honourable member for Richmond.
MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, it's a pleasure to rise today to speak and ask some questions on the Education estimates. I'd like to start off with an issue which I'm sure the minister is well aware of, as it impacts us very dearly in the Strait area. I'm sure the member for Inverness and the member for Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury will be well aware of the situation that we face in the Strait area in light of our education system.
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Mr. Chairman, the fact is, we are in a crisis situation in the Strait, and unless something is done to address the challenges that we face and to address them immediately, we are going to continue to face that crisis. The problem in the Strait is not a problem that developed yesterday. Not even I, as partisan as I may be at some times, would lay the full blame on the Conservatives for the situations we do find ourselves in. The fact is, unfortunately, it's a reality faced by many communities in rural Nova Scotia, and the fact is that the numbers being provided tell us that in 1996, the Strait Regional School Board had 12,000 students in their education system. Today, as I stand here, we are down to 9,500 students.
Mr. Chairman, I'd like to tell you that is the end of the reduction in students, but unfortunately it is not. The numbers currently being projected by the Strait Regional School Board tell us that in the year of 2003-04, the next school year, there will be another 380 fewer students than what we have now. In fact, we also have the numbers in from 2004-05 which tell us that in that year we will have 400 fewer students than what we have today.
If one wants to go even further, it is projected that from now until 2008 the Strait Regional School Board will lose up to 1,000 students out of its system. What is the result? Under the current financing methods used for education in this system, which is such that school boards receive funding based on the amount of students that they have, it obviously means that there's going to be less funding coming to the Strait Regional School Board to carry out its programs and services.
For example, next year as a result of the reduction of 380 students, it is predicted that 16 teaching positions will have to be cut throughout the Strait Regional School Board. There have been significant reductions in teaching positions from one . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Honourable members, I'm wondering if you could turn down those private conversations a little bit. It's very difficult to hear the member who has the floor, which is the member for Richmond.
MR. SAMSON: As I said, 16 fewer teaching positions is what the board is looking at right now if their numbers hold true. There have been significant reductions in the number of teachers throughout the entire Strait Regional School Board and I'm sure this is a fact that the minister's aware of as the MLA for Antigonish, the Minister of Tourism as the MLA for Inverness and the member for Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury will all be well aware of the impact that these cuts and this loss of teachers is having.
I guess my first question is, I'm wondering if the minister could indicate to us, in the last four years since the Conservatives have come to power, what efforts and what decisions have been taken to address this need in the current minister's own backyard, that being the Strait Regional School Board?
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MR. MACISAAC: The honourable member does highlight a problem that is very real and I believe earlier in the estimates I indicated that it is not a problem that is confined to simply Nova Scotia or in particular the Strait area or the Cape Breton board, it is a problem that is being faced by all educational jurisdictions right across the country. There are quite a few different approaches that are being considered with respect to addressing this concern. We will receive in the very near future a report from the regional education officer for that area who is working with school board officials and Department of Education officials, a report specific to the subject that the honourable member mentions. That is our capacity to be able to deal with the very real problems that arise as a result of attempting to deliver our educational programs in areas where we have significant decline in the population.
It should be noted that the decline in population, while it is felt perhaps more acutely in Cape Breton and in the Strait area, is a province-wide phenomenon. If you look at the enrolment province-wide, the Annapolis Valley board has a decrease of 521, the Cape Breton board has decreased by 692, Chignecto-Central has 490, CSAP has a slight increase, but even the Halifax Regional School Board has a decline of 744 students, the Southwest board, 354 and as the honourable member indicated, the Strait Regional School Board has 394.
[5:00 p.m.]
These are declines that are very real right across the province. The total in 1997, for instance, there was a decline of 1,127 students and in 2002, there's a decline of 3,162 province-wide. So, there are very real problems that arise as a result of that and we are addressing them. As I indicated, Mr. Burton's report will be coming forward very shortly, but while awaiting that we have been very sensitive to the distribution of additional funds to boards throughout the province. There is a recognition of the challenges facing boards who are facing significant declines in enrolment. We are attempting to adjust the funding to those boards in a manner that cushions the blows somewhat as the boards move from one year of declining enrolment to another year of declining enrolment.
It is, obviously, an ongoing problem and projections into the future would suggest to us that it is not a problem that is going to be turned around in the very near future. If the honourable member would entertain a slight challenge, I could say to him he's at a stage in life where he could take some actions to perhaps do something about that, but that's his business.
MR. SAMSON: I can tell the honourable minister that my sister and her husband now have three children and I've been encouraging her to continue to practise as much as possible to try to address those drops in declining enrolment. Unfortunately, I'll just have to take the minister's recommendation under advisement for the time being.
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I appreciate this is not a problem isolated to the Strait, it is a problem throughout the province. But if you look at the Strait area in particular and the Strait board as to what it has undergone in the last 10 years for example, it has undergone significant drops which I would argue is probably unprecedented in other boards for the amount of reductions taking place. As a result, the amount of school closures have had to be undertaken to consolidate the reality of declining enrolments and the amount of teaching staff. Unfortunately, I don't have the numbers before me of what the teaching staff was in the Strait board a number of years ago compared to what it is now. We have seen a significant reduction and more and more of what we are seeing is a lot of students being forced to take these distance education courses because of the fact that there are not enough students to warrant a teacher to give these courses. More and more students are spending their time on a computer to learn rather than in a classroom with a teacher giving those courses. It's not getting any better.
I don't pretend to say that there's simple solutions to this problem, but I would remind the minister on Page 25 of their blue book under Education, it does say that during the first mandate a Conservative Government will review, ". . . funding formulas to protect schools in areas of declining enrollments from detrimental and untimely reductions in the teaching staff . . ." We have that in the Strait board, we have had that for the last four years. This government has been in office for four years now. The Strait board right now is looking at losing another 16 teachers next year. Therefore, I ask the minister, what assurances can he give to me, to the parents of students and the Strait board that his government will provide the funding necessary to avoid the loss of another 16 teachers next year and will he make that commitment today?
MR. MACISAAC: What I can commit to is that we will continue to work with the school board to ensure that the programs that are needed for the students served by the Strait Regional School Board will be made available to those students. The answer to that is not simply a matter of providing additional sums of money so that teachers can be kept on the payroll when the number of students that are being served by those teachers are declining. That challenge is to find a way to ensure that the programs that are required by the students
served by that board are delivered to those students in an effective manner. The honourable member made reference to distance education, and I can tell the honourable member that, first of all, I am very impressed with the accomplishments of the Strait Regional School Board with respect to the delivery of distance education, and they are leaders in this province with respect to that particular phenomenon. I can also indicate to the honourable member that when you discuss this problem with jurisdictions, nationally, they also look very much at the use of technology and the use of distance education as being only a part of the solution but, nevertheless, a significant part of the solution.
We have put together the group, chaired by Mr. Burton, that report will be forthcoming in the very near future, and we will be responding to that report in a manner that will allow us to ensure that our schools, right across this province, are able to continue to deliver our educational program to our students in an effective manner.
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MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, again, I would remind the minister that he may want to read the blue book, which says, review, ". . . funding formulas to protect schools in areas of declining enrollments from detrimental and untimely reductions in the teaching staff . . ." It is not myself who is saying that funding is the answer, your blue book seems to be saying that funding is the answer. That was not my suggestion, it was the suggestion your government has presented.
Distance education - there's no doubt that the Strait board has been the leader in this. The problem is, at first it was put out there for courses such as advanced math, where there weren't enough students who were interested in taking this course to warrant a teacher, advanced biology, advanced chemistry, but 16 more teachers lost next year, we're coming to the point where it's not these advanced courses that are going to be distance education. Your core courses are coming to the point where you do not have the number of teachers necessary to provide these courses.
Mr. Chairman, unfortunately, I can tell you, the Strait board - and I certainly have a bias for the Strait board - is known throughout this province and outside this province for producing some of the best, most competent students of any board in this province. The rate of students in the Strait board who attend post-secondary university and go on into professions, I would argue, is probably just as high a percentage as any other board in the province or any other board in Atlantic Canada.
The results are coming in, the national test scores that have come in were particularly unfavourable towards the Strait Regional School Board. That is very disappointing to me and it is alarming to me to see that courses such as chemistry and math, for example, have some of the lowest scores of anywhere in the province, in the Strait board. That is not the tradition of excellence that we have been so proud of in the Strait board. I would submit to you, Mr. Chairman, it is not because the quality of our students is not sufficient to warrant better scores, it is because we have had continual cuts to our education system, to the teaching staff, and that has to be reversed or we come to the point where our students are no longer receiving the quality education we want to see them enjoy.
I appreciate the minister saying that Mr. Burton is coming forward with a report but, again, it has been four years that this government has been saying they would address this problem. Again I would submit, the blue book clearly says it would be done during the first mandate, which we all know appears to be coming to an end, sooner rather than later. I ask again, will the minister commit today - he obviously must have an idea of what Mr. Burton's report is going to indicate - that the funding will be put in place or that it will at least be frozen at this year's levels to ensure that the Strait board will not be forced to eliminate another 16 teaching positions in the next school year? Will he commit to that?
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MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I want to point out to the honourable member that the report of Mr. Burton's group is very much part of the commitment that was made in the blue book. When we have that report, of course, we will work expeditiously in order to ensure that those elements of the report that are achievable are acted upon. I would like to point out to the honourable member that, indeed, we have been very much aware of the problems faced by the Strait Regional School Board. I can tell you that the average amount paid per student in this province is $5,567, that's proposed for 2003-04, and the amount that the Strait Regional board will receive is $6,611, that's $1,100 more than the average paid out in this province. I believe that's a very significant recognition of the problems faced by that board, and it's part of our commitment to address those concerns. We will continue to address those concerns.
Now, the problem, relative to delivery of some courses, is not so much a problem related to teachers being available for the delivery of the courses as it is a problem of having enough students in a school in order to be able to effectively put on courses. That's where the real benefit of distance education comes in. It's one of the reasons that we will rely on that as being part of the solution to this. I do point out that paying $1,100 more per student in the Strait Regional School Board than is paid elsewhere in the province is very much a recognition of the problems and concerns of that board. I believe the honourable member should recognize that we, indeed, have taken very significant steps to address these concerns, and we will continue to do so in the future.
MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, very simply, will the minister commit today that the funding will be put in place for the Strait board so that the 16 teaching positions, which are currently on the chopping block because of declining enrolment, those cuts will not have to be made in this board? Will he give that assurance today, yes or no, that the funding will be there so that these positions do not have to be cut?
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member knows full well what the answer to that question is. He wants to embellish it and talk about the impact. The impact in the Strait area isn't different than it is in other parts of this province. There is declining enrolment, and as a result of declining enrolment, fewer teachers are required to deliver the programs in this province. Those are decisions boards have to take. The boards have the money, they know what they're going to have for the coming year, and they know the decisions that they have to take with respect to the realities of declining enrolment relative to the money they have available. I will point out again that the Strait board receives $1,100 per student more than other boards in this province. That's a very real recognition of the challenges that face them.
MR. SAMSON: Will the minister commit today that the necessary funding will be given to the Strait board, to ensure that the 16 positions currently being proposed for elimination will not have to be cut, and that in fact those 16 teaching positions will be maintained for next year?
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MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, to make a commitment such as that would mean that I would have to get the Minister of Finance to completely revamp the budget as it is presented. The honourable member knows what the numbers are, and those numbers have been made available to all of the boards. The numbers are the numbers, and the boards will be making the decisions that they need to make to deal with the problems that present themselves.
MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, obviously the answer is no, that commitment won't be made. It's unfortunate, because when we had the Minister of Education coming from Halifax Citadel, it was frustrating to try to get her to appreciate the situation faced by the Strait Regional School Board. I know that many of the teachers, parents and staff said, well, now that we have a Minister of Education whose jurisdiction is the Strait Regional School Board, we are sure that he will have a good appreciation of the cuts we have faced over the years, the reductions in staff, the impact it has had on the students, and that the minister will certainly pay close attention to the situation at the Strait and make the necessary investments to back up what his own blue book, on Page 25, actually promises that the government will do.
Clearly, after four years, we are no further with this minister than we were with the minister from Halifax Citadel and that's unfortunate for the Strait area. I know they certainly expected much more from that.
[5:15 p.m.]
Mr. Chairman, I also wanted to ask the minister, there was a three-year $8 million capital funding commitment made to universities here in this province. I believe the $8 million started in 1998-99 and I believe it ended either in 2000 or 2001. It was a total of $24 million that was given to Nova Scotia universities to help them with capital infrastructure such as meeting the needs of repairing some of their older buildings and making some infrastructure improvements on the campuses. That was $24 million - $8 million over three years. I am wondering if the Minister of Education could tell us what is the current status of that funding commitment today to the Nova Scotia universities?
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I am told that that figure, $8 million, $8 million and $8 million was, in fact, operating and not capital and we are working with the universities with respect to addressing their deferred maintenance problems and they will be part of ongoing discussions with the universities as we move forward. I do want to go back and point out to the honourable member, with respect to the Strait board, the student/teacher ratio of the Strait board is 15.5 students per teacher; the provincial average is 16.5. That is a very significant contribution to the special needs of that particular board. I'm very pleased with what my predecessor has done to assist that and other boards in this province and I'm quite pleased with what we're continuing to do to assist those boards and we will continue to work with them in the future.
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MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, on that point, I guess it is the parents and teachers of the Strait board who will pass judgment on this government's efforts to meet the needs of the declining enrolments and teacher cuts and the fact that the Minister of Education, who is from Antigonish, is now saying that he is not prepared to commit that the 16 teaching cuts that may take place next year will not happen. Certainly I think it tells the tale right there as to what the government's commitment is to meet the crisis situation faced in that area but, again, I digress, it is the voters of the Strait board who will pass judgment on that.
Mr. Chairman, the fact is that $24 million commitment, when it did expire after the three years, this government did not renew that commitment. The Minister of Education talks about university funding and continues to refer to the 1990s, I believe is how he likes to say it, continues to forget about the significant investments that were made during that time, but I will come back to that later.
One of the other issues I wanted to touch on, it's my understanding that the Youth Entrepreneurial Skills Program has been transferred from the Department of Economic Development to the Department of Education and I'm curious if the minister could tell us what is the amount of funding that is made available this year for the Youth Entrepreneurial Skills Program and how many students is it anticipated will be provided with employment this summer?
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, we will endeavour to find that number for the honourable member. While the number is being found, I want to point out that within the existing funding formula for universities, in this year there is an amount of $7.7 million which is described as being for non-space and alterations and renovations and it is within the $205 million that we make available to the universities and that is an ongoing figure that is available to those. With respect to the first question that he asked on this, or the question he asked which has brought me to my feet, it is an amount of $1.685 million that's being made available for that training in this fiscal year.
MR. SAMSON: Well, there was a second part to the question and the second part was how many positions will this provide, in other words how many students will it employ, but along with that, when the minister gets that figure, could the minister also indicate what was the level of funding made available to that program last year?
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the number of students that will be affected by the program, I will take that as notice and get back to the honourable member with that. The amount of $1.685 million, to the best of my knowledge, that number is the same as it was in the previous year but, again, I would want to go back and confirm that answer.
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MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, I would appreciate if the minister could get that figure to us as soon as possible. The reason I ask, as he will probably be aware, in the last couple of years, I believe it was maybe two years ago, your government cut that program significantly from where it was and so I'm curious to see whether we're seeing any further cuts to that program now. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the cuts that were made by your government a few years ago were almost half of what the program previously was, or if not half, it was certainly a significant reduction in funding to that program. So I'm curious to see what the funding numbers were last year and how many jobs we can expect this year.
My understanding was in the last two years the actual amount of grants that were awarded to non-profit organizations was based on some sort of a criteria where it was primarily targeted for areas with high unemployment rates throughout the province and mostly in rural Nova Scotia. I'm curious as to whether that practice is still what will be undertaken this year in determining which counties get what amount of summer positions, each county is going to receive, is that still tied in with the unemployment rate in those areas?
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member for the question. That method of determining distribution has not changed, but I do want to point out that a portion of this program has been dedicated to the Public Service Commission to look after programs which they have had in the past and will continue to have in the future, but the criterion that is suggested by the honourable member is the criterion that's still in place. The two programs will create - that is both the program as administered by my department and through the Public Service Commission - let's see, yes, the total of 700 jobs will be created for that figure, okay, and we have responsibility for the Cooperative Employment Program and the Nova Scotia Employment Program for Students. So through those two programs 700 jobs have been created.
MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, I'm just curious, you indicated that out of the funding envelope of $1.685 million, that the funding for the Public Service positions was coming out of that. Has that always been the case?
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I will undertake to get a definitive answer, but I'm quite certain that the amount of $1.685 million is for the program which we administer and the Public Service Commission's program is a separate figure, but I will confirm that and provide the number to the honourable member.
MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, I had assumed they were separate figures. When the minister answered before, he said he thought they were under the same envelope which is why I was a bit surprised to hear that and was curious if that was reducing the amount of funding that was available for the employment program, the traditional program. So I am hoping they are two separate figures and that is not from the same envelope and I will wait for the minister to provide that.
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Mr. Minister, one of the concerns that I've raised and I know that the now Minister of Economic Development, prior to his ascension to Cabinet, has raised the issue that under the current program, elected members of this House, caucus offices and Party offices are disqualified from applying under this program. As you know very well yourself as to the amount of money you're given to run your constituency office, it is extremely difficult out of those funds to have the amount of funding available to hire one or more students during the summer. Yet I think we're all committed to the fact that we want to see more young people involved in the political process and I think the days of asking our youth just to blow up balloons, wave banners and make noise at rallies are gone and it's time for us to allow them to be in the front lines to see how the political process works and have a better appreciation of how government works here in this province.
So I'm curious, have there been any efforts on your part as the Minister of Education now responsible for this program, or have there been any representations made to you by members of your own caucus to review this and to see whether funding would be made available or that elected officials would be permitted to apply under this program to have students working in our constituency offices, or caucus office for that matter?
MR. MACISAAC: I want to thank the honourable member for that suggestion. I certainly don't in any way disagree with the objective that the honourable member would like to achieve and perhaps reasons for members not being able to qualify for this funding in the past, perhaps it's appropriate for those reasons to be reviewed. I can say that it is not a matter that to this point in time I have spent any amount of time considering. I will take it under advisement and have a look at it. Well, it's an interesting suggestion and I will take it under advisement and look at it.
MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to hear those comments from the minister and this is the first time he has the program, so I can't go on at length about having raised this issue four years in a row because it is the first time with his program, but certainly it was raised with his predecessors each year asking that they at least undertake a review of this and, as I said, the current Minister of Economic Development, I know before his ascension to Cabinet had agreed that this was something that should be pursued and I believe the member for Kings North during late debate one night had also agreed that this was something that should be looked at which is why I was looking forward to the new Minister of Economic Development having the program based on the fact that he had said he supported it and only to find out during estimates that he no longer had the program and it was sent over to the Department of Education.
I would certainly encourage the minister and maybe even work through the Office of the Speaker to see, it is my understanding that there used to be here in Province House, and maybe the minister remembers from his previous stint here in the House, that there used to be some sort of a program where MLAs could employ students and ministers could employ students, I believe through the Speaker's Office, again to give them first-hand experience of
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what the political process looks like, how government operates and how serving your constituents operates also.
So I'm curious, I'm not sure at what stage we are in the application process or in the decision-making time for his department under this program, is it possible for the minister to look at bringing in those types of changes this year before the funding and the decisions are made on that program or is it too late for any sort of review to be undertaken on that matter?
[5:30 p.m.]
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for his question. It's very difficult to effect a change at this stage because application deadlines have been posted and applications have been received. The amount of the budget is as presented so it is highly unlikely that we will be finding additional funds. Nevertheless, I will, as I committed to do, ask the administrators of the program to have a look at it and I would certainly be interested to hear the views of other members of the House with respect to the suggestion made by the honourable member. I have, quite honestly, not spent enough time considering the matter to indicate to him whether it is something that I feel is appropriate or not at this juncture.
The honourable member might be interested to know that relative to his desire to have youth more involved in the political process, both myself and the Speaker of the House are sponsoring a model parliament that will take place here on the weekend of May 24th and it will involve students from all across the province. The intent of the program is to familiarize those students with the workings of the Legislature, with issues relative to government, provide them with an opportunity to debate, to experience the procedures of the House, to also become familiar with all of the processes, political and administrative, that lead to the operation and functioning of the Legislature as we know it.
The honourable member made reference to my time previously, suggesting that there might have been a program that allowed us to hire people. I can tell you, Mr. Chairman, when I was here previously, we did not have any provisions for staff, period. There were no constituency assistants. There wasn't a constituency office. The amount of expenses that we received, other than the tax-free allowance, when I arrived here was an amount of $50 for franking privileges and that was the only amount of money that was made available to members of the House at that particular time. So the program to which he's referring must have occurred some time after I had been here previously because at that time there wasn't anything. I recall that I hired, out of my own pocket, the secretary to the school in which I was employed, to do some stenographic work on my behalf and I can remember the amount that I was able to pay her was not very significant in those times.
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I also just want to let the honourable member perhaps understand my appreciation of his desire to have more people become involved in the political process. In my career in education I organized quite a number of model parliaments. I started for the first time in the Canso high school and I believe the year was 1967 that we started that model parliament and had several of them at the Canso high school. I again became involved in conducting model parliaments at the school in Calgary where I was employed and we had a Canadian Studies course at the Grade 10 level and there were over 1,700 students in that school so you can appreciate the number of Grade 10 social studies classes that there were, but we concluded every semester of our Canadian Studies course with a two-week model parliament that involved all of the students in that program, and a wide variety of issues were debated that were related to the course of studies and issues that were researched by students throughout the year. I was told, 20 years after I had left that school, that the program was still in effect. I can't say if it's still operating today.
I also had some experience in organizing model parliaments at the Dr. John Hugh Gillis Regional School in Antigonish. A former Speaker of this House was very kind to us, Mr. Arthur Donahoe used to come down annually and act as our Lieutenant Governor - or Governor General, since we fashioned it after the Parliament of Canada - and then stayed on for the remainder of the first morning of the model parliament to instruct students on procedure.
I very much appreciate where the honourable member is coming from with respect to involving students in the process, because it is very important, it's important for them to understand the political process, important for them to take an interest in the issues of the day and to spend time formulating a position with respect to those issues and then having an opportunity to get involved in a debate and discussion relative to those positions. Again, I want to thank the honourable member for bringing this suggestion forward. It is finding ways to involve more people in the affairs of the province and political affairs generally, I think it's very important and is something perhaps all of us could dedicate ourselves to, perhaps in a more effective manner than we currently do. I will, as I indicated, take your suggestion under advisement and ask people to have a good look at it.
MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that. My initial reaction, when the minister referred to his franking allowance when he was in the House the first time, was to tell him, well, things were different back then, it only cost 2 cents for a stamp back then. I didn't want to make any reference to his age or when he sat here, some time ago. The fact is we're sending mixed messages, as elected officials, and the government is sending a mixed message because by telling MLAs you can't apply under this program to hire a student because you're an elected official and there's a political aspect to it, it's sending a mixed message to tell us that, yet at the same time saying we should encourage young people to get more involved in the political system.
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That's my big concern, that unless we're prepared to bring them on the front lines, show them exactly what it is to be an elected official, what it is to be a constituency representative, what it is to take care of everyday problems for the people we represent, they will not truly have an appreciation for the work we do. I certainly hope the minister will undertake to bring about those changes and maybe look, with the Speaker's Office, at some of the programs previously offered here in the House to elected members.
I am pleased to hear his comments about the model parliaments. That is another issue that, again, being it's his first time around in Education I can't chastise him for not having acted on it because it's the first time I get to raise it with him, but I have been raising this ever since I was elected, about the need for the province and for this Legislature to take the lead role in initiating model parliaments throughout the high schools and throughout the schools of this province. We all know that our teachers, our support staff at our schools are exhausted, they're tapped out with what they're doing right now. This is an example of where, both through the Speaker's Office, the Office of Legislative Counsel and through the House of Assembly itself, we could be providing a form of leadership in drafting legislation, preparing the Orders of the Day and putting together a format that makes it easy for high schools to initiate these model parliaments and that we would see this House taking a lead role in that rather than leaving it to the high schools themselves to come up with this.
It is a lot of work to run a model parliament. I can tell you I had the privilege of sitting in two model parliaments during my high school days, that were organized by the late Roy Boudreau, who the Minister of Education may be familiar with. Roy was a strong advocate of model parliaments, and unfortunately he passed away last year. With his passing, unfortunately, the program has come to an end. We're certainly hoping to be able to revive that. I had the privilege of sitting as a backbencher in government, in model parliament, and also had the privilege of being Deputy Prime Minister and the federal Minister of Fisheries. It was quite an interesting high school experience, to say the least.
I certainly have no dispute as to the value of the model parliaments, and I believe his department, the Office of the Speaker and the Office of Legislative Counsel could work together with all of us as elected officials in putting together a model parliament program for all of our high schools to use, which we can all participate in and certainly support in our own areas. I would encourage the minister to lead that effort. I am pleased to see that there is going to be a model parliament May 24th. I am assuming that the minister is now telling this House that he will be sitting here in Halifax and not on the campaign trail on May 24th, so that's an interesting bit of information for members of this House who might be wondering what they will be doing on that particular date.
I can tell the minister that, actually, two years ago I had the privilege of being the Speaker of the International Francophone Youth Parliament which took place in Quebec, which was represented by 48 countries that had students, ages 14 to 16, from 48 different French-speaking countries. It was a great experience. My understanding is the second
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international model parliament is taking place, I believe, in Nigeria this coming Fall. Only time will tell, I guess, whether I am fortunate enough to be able to attend the second one.
Mr. Chairman, a few questions, my time is running out. I just want to go back. Mr. Minister, you've probably heard me speak in this House before about the issue of post-secondary education and the impact that tuition increases and student loans have on students, it's near and dear to my heart. I can certainly speak from experience, having graduated after six years of university, owing $35,000. I certainly can appreciate what the students are facing today. I can tell you from practical experience, anyone who is wondering what sort of impact that has, I can tell you that today I pay more for my student loans than I pay for the mortgage on my house. That will give you a bit of a better idea what our students face today.
I have already given the example, in this House, of a young couple from Richmond County, both graduates of St. F.X. with teaching degrees, which I am sure the Minister of Tourism and Culture is familiar with, and right now, with their combined student loans, they are paying $1,200 a month on student loans. Mr. Minister, that is just simply unacceptable. It is not sustainable to ask a young couple to be paying that much. I am sure the minister will agree that $1,200 is a mortgage payment on a very nice home, to say the least. Yet, this couple is currently renting a home, they need to sustain two vehicles because they work at different schools, and they have a $1,200 monthly payment on their student loans. It is not sustainable.
These are the individuals we expect to be leading our economy. These are the ones we expect to be going out and growing our economy, having children, making for a better tomorrow. You can't do that when you're paying $1,200 a month at the age of 25, which is basically what they are. They're 24 and 25 years old and they're paying $1,200 a month. That's going away to the bank, and it's not going into our local economy. That is the reality, Mr. Minister.
I wanted to go, again - your Premier was fond of it today, so I will go back to it - your blue book, Page 26. It says, "During its first mandate, a PC Government will improve post-secondary education by: Establishing a provincial Income Tax Relief Program for graduating students with high debt loads, allowing students to re-direct a portion of their provincial tax payment to retire a maximum of 30 percent of the value of their original debt load . . ." I am wondering if the minister could indicate to us what is the status of that commitment?
MR. MACISAAC: I want to thank the honourable member for the question. That particular commitment was one that was indeed analyzed by the Department of Finance, and it was found to be a commitment that was not practical in terms of the feasibility of implementing it. For that reason, we formulated the debt reduction program, which we have recently come forward with. As I indicated earlier today, that debt reduction program will allow students to reduce their total debt by in excess of 40 per cent upon graduation from programs within the province.
[Page 405]
If I could, Mr. Chairman, rather than waiting to table the additional information at another time, I could let the honourable member know that the provincial employment program as administered by the Department of Education would create approximately 700 jobs, the precise number is 695 at $1.685 million. There is still, within the office of Economic Development, a program that will create 124 jobs and that is funded to the tune of $215,000, and other government departments will create 800 jobs and that is funded to the amount of $1.575 million. That's a total job creation of 1,619 jobs and the funding for that is $3.475 million.
[5:45 p.m.]
MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the minister's answer on the issue of tax relief, but I am sure that he will appreciate that the commitment made in the blue book was for tax relief on top of the Loan Remission Program. Instead your answer today is we couldn't do the tax relief, so we've blended into the Loan Remission Program. That wasn't the commitment that was made. The commitment was this tax relief will be on top of the Loan Remission Program that is there already. I know that many students were waiting to see what sort of tax relief would be provided to them. I would again remind you that this tax relief would be for students who are out there right now, who have graduated.
I am sure the minister will be well aware that his Loan Remission Program is of no use to me or to all of the other graduates who are paying student loans, who have now finished their studies. That's where the tax relief could have helped; it's certainly not going to help now when the minister says that commitment has been abandoned and that they're now referring instead on the Loan Remission Program which, again, is meant to benefit students entering the university system next year, not those who are in it right now.
Again, on Page 26, it says that your government in its first mandate will establish, ". . . a University Student Employment Program, similar to that offered by Memorial University of Newfoundland, which provides university students with part-time campus work in such areas as research and accounting, providing practical on-the-job skills and helps students pay for their education . . ." I'm wondering could the minister indicate to us what the status of that commitment is?
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I would have to admit to not paying as close attention as I should have been to the honourable member's question, and I wonder if I could ask him to repeat the question.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. It may also be helpful if the conversations were taken outside of the Chamber, please.
[Page 406]
MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, I do have to tell you that I get a real big kick out of each time a member of government doesn't realize or doesn't recall stuff that's in their own blue book that they campaigned on - I know the Premier has had a few bouts of amnesia, and I always find it amusing to see just how committed they are to this.
I will read it for the minister again, Page 26 of the blue book, it says, "During its first mandate, a PC Government will improve post-secondary education by: Establishing a University Student Employment Program, similar to that offered by Memorial University of Newfoundland . . ." My question to the minister is, could you indicate what the status of that commitment is today?
MR. MACISAAC: As I indicated to the honourable member previously, we have in fact, through the Provincial Employment Program, created a total of 1,619 jobs, or will be creating, in this current fiscal year. That program is funded to the amount of $3.475 million.
MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, I may be making some assumptions that are incorrect, but I think it's safe to say that in the books that the minister and his staff have there, a copy of the blue book is not one of them, because clearly the program being referred to as a University Student Employment Program has nothing to do with the current program that exists. This was a special program to be done in conjunction with universities. Clearly the answer is nothing has been done on this. Again, we know how quickly we are into the first mandate, four years later.
Again, Mr. Minister, it says on Page 27 of your blue book what you will do during your first mandate for post-secondary education, that you will be "Creating a comprehensive job search and support program for students who have successfully completed university, are nearing the end of their interest-free loan repayment period and have not yet found work." I'm curious, could the minister indicate to us what the status of that commitment is today?
MR. MACISAAC: I want to thank the honourable member for that question, Mr. Chairman. There is more information available on that than I have with me at the moment, and I will undertake to provide the honourable member with a complete answer to that question.
MR. SAMSON: Can the minister indicate whether that program is currently in practice or has been developed?
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, as I indicated, I will undertake to provide a complete answer to the honourable member.
MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, I can save the minister the time, I can tell you that nothing has been done on that and the program does not currently exist for students. That's at least three of the commitments here in the first mandate which are nowhere near being put
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in place. Let's go to a couple more in the time I have remaining. We have here: "Urging the federal government to change the regulations that discourage students from part-time work by forcing them to remit 80% of every dollar earned after the first $800 . . ." Could the minister indicate what the status of that commitment is?
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I can indicate that we have in fact altered that requirement. We don't require students to dedicate as much of their earnings to their education as previously had been the case; that has been a significant adjustment.
MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, the fact the minister can't tell us what the figures are, what the percentage is, or how much money they're able to earn makes it quite clear that the answer here is say we've done something, stop making him list off stuff we've done nothing about.
In the limited time I have left, I simply want to finish by saying that I am very concerned, and maybe it's because of politics, maybe it's being a good team player, that the minister has given the answers he has given regarding the Strait Regional School Board, but it does disturb me and I do hope, personally, that the minister does not feel that the situation in the Strait is comparable to the situation of boards throughout the rest of the province.
As serious as they might be in the Cape Breton-Victoria board, they are certainly extremely serious in the Strait board - 16 more cuts to teaching positions is of a tremendous concern to us. It's unfortunate the minister will not make the commitment to maintain that and to make sure that that does not happen. We are in a crisis situation in the Strait. It is not going to get better if we continue to lose teachers. While distance education has provided benefit to numerous students, at the end of the day it is not a replacement for the traditional methods of having a teacher in the class providing education to the students on a daily basis. I would urge you to deal with the situation in the Strait as a crisis situation which needs to be immediately attended to.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The member's time has expired.
The honourable member for Halifax Needham.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I don't have a great deal of time before the moment of interruption, but in the brief period of time I have I want to start by asking the minister a few questions about the implementation of the Black Learners Advisory Committee report, the BLAC report. What I would like to know is how many of the recommendations from the BLAC report have been fulfilled? How many of the recommendations are in progress? How many require planning and action because they have not been undertaken at this stage?
[Page 408]
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the honourable member for the question. We've completed a review of what remains to be done, and I've looked at the financial impact and how best to proceed with respect to that. We are committed to full implementation. This year we will focus on direct support to public school students by funding 10 student support worker positions. We will provide additional resources to school boards to ensure each has a coordinator to implement the new racial equity policy and to increase cross-cultural understanding and greater awareness of human rights.
There are numbers associated with this, Mr. Chairman. I can say that $300,000 has been allocated in 2003-04 for targeted funding for student support workers; $150,000 for RCI staffing and professional development; and there is $100,000 in the department budget for the implementation of the racial equity policy which was released in May 2002. Those are the commitments to date, but I do want to underline the fact that we are committed to the full implementation of the report.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Your government and the previous government have both been committed and have stated their commitment to implementing the recommendations of the BLAC report, but I'm trying to establish how far away we are from actually implementing those recommendations. I ask this in all seriousness and out of concern as I have a very large African-Nova Scotian community inside my constituency. I sometimes despair when I go to high school graduations, in particular, and I see the small number of youth from my constituency graduating. I can go into elementary schools in my constituency and see lots of young African-Nova Scotian children, and they get lost between the elementary grades and the high school grades.
It's an issue I've consistently raised here with Ministers of Education, and I raise it with the school board for my area. When I talk to organizations like Black Educators or CACE, they indicate that the foundation on which we need to build education for African-Nova Scotian children and youth is the BLAC report, and that if there is anything myself as an elected person can do it's to come here to the House and give voice to their concerns that recommendations have a long way to go in terms of being fulfilled.
I guess I want to ask the minister again - and I won't repeat this over and over again - I would like to know how many recommendations have actually been completed and fulfilled, how many are in progress, and how many require planning and action? If the minister doesn't have that information at his fingertips, would he be prepared to make it available in a reasonable period of time so that I can share that information with people in my constituency, and elsewhere as well, who are very concerned about these issues?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The time has come for the committee to recess as we approach the moment of interruption.
[6:00 p.m. The committee recessed.]
[Page 409]
[6:30 p.m. The committee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will call the committee to order.
The honourable member for Halifax Needham.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I guess I will start by asking the minister if he had a chance over the break to think about my last question, which was also my first question, and whether or not he needs me to go through it again? I would be happy to do that, I am quite anxious to get that information.
HON. ANGUS MACISAAC: I can tell the honourable member that we will endeavour to provide a detailed response to her with respect to the areas, but the BLAC Report Implementation Review Committee assessed the current status of the implementation, what needs to be done next, and the full cost of that implementation. A report was presented to the department with expectations that it would be considered during budget allocations. The review identified four key areas of priority funding: the first was the Africentive Learning Institute; the second was the student support workers; the third was dedicated funding for race relations, cross-cultural understanding, and human rights initiatives; and four, ACSD program enhancement, a curriculum consultant and 4+/school readiness.
After the review CACE and the African-Nova Scotian community expected government to allocate more resources to the implementation process. I've previously indicated some of the budget items that exist for that but, as I said at the outset, I will be quite pleased to provide the honourable member with a detailed breakdown of additional matters.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I want to thank the minister. I look forward to getting that information very much. Just before we recessed for the moment of interruption and the late debate the minister indicated that monies have been allocated in this budget for 10 student support workers, $300,000 and I'm wondering if the minister could break that out across the boards. How will that be allocated across the various boards?
MR. MACISAAC: The criteria that was used, Mr. Chairman, was to take the percentage of African-Nova Scotian students in each board and use that as the basis of the distribution of the funds. We do have a complete list, which I can make available to the honourable member.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I want to thank the minister, and I would very much like to have a chance to look at that list. I want to just tell the minister, before I move on, that when I was first elected there were at least 15 student support workers working in the Halifax regional board - that number is down to about five or six. I know at least two of the people who are currently doing this work and they are phenomenal. They are people
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whom you would want to be working with young people who are at risk. The schools, the principals rely heavily on them to be involved with young people whose teachers and principals have identified as being kids who are struggling in the school system and who require some additional support and intervention. These workers do an amazing job.
Since the reduction in student support workers - it's gone from 15 or 16 down to 5 - these workers have been put at a real disadvantage. One of the workers I remember so well talking about his work and how it changed with the reduction in the number of people doing this work, and he says all they do now is put out fires, they have no capacity to do anything but deal with the most serious kinds of crisis. The loss of student support workers has had a tremendously negative impact on our schools, and while I recognize the government's allocation of some additional resources to address the need for student support workers, I want to make sure that the minister is aware that it doesn't go anywhere close to meeting the need or meeting what was there four years ago.
I want to ask about the race relations and cross-cultural understanding and human rights coordinators in each school board. The minister has indicated that there are some additional monies allocated in this budget to set up RCH coordinators in each board. I want to ask how many boards were there where this position didn't exist - is this a new position that's being created in some boards? I know that in the Halifax Regional School Board there has been an RCH position, and I know that there's a similar position in the Annapolis Valley board. Can you tell me if new positions are being created here or if this is an augmentation of existing RCH staff in the various boards?
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for the question. I previously undertook to provide her with the allocation of the funding. This is both the $150,000 allocation for RCH and the $300,000 figure, taking the two of them together, the Annapolis board would receive $65,000, Cape Breton-Victoria $50,000, Chignecto-Central $50,000, the Conseil Scolaire $10,000, Halifax $145,000, Southwest $80,000, and the Strait $50,000 - that's for a total of $450,000. I believe, with respect to her most recent question, that all boards now have in place - the Strait board was the one board without such a person and now all of those boards, I'm informed, have someone in place.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I want to ask the minister, in terms of the racial equity policy of the department and the relationship that the department has with each board, what kind of accountability do the boards have for the way they operationalize the racial equity policy? Specifically, I will give the minister an example and then maybe he can help me understand how the Department of Education responds to this situation. Race relations, cross-cultural understanding and human rights division of the Halifax Regional School Board has recently been downgraded to a program inside the board, where in the past the coordinator for RCH sat at the most senior management level in the board and not only had responsibility for program development but also would play a role in terms of human
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resource questions, so staffing would have a role to play in terms of a whole variety of issues outside of just providing a program.
I know there's a very strong feeling in the African-Nova Scotian community, particularly among Black educators and Black learners, that the Halifax Regional School Board, in their reorganization, has put race relations and cross-cultural understanding and human rights at a much lower priority, and it's a step backwards for all of the work that so many people have been doing to try to give that issue and the important work of the people doing the work in the RCH units some real teeth.
My question is whether or not the Department of Education, as part of their racial equity policy, requires that school boards treat the RCH units as more than a program or a small unit within the board, but actually is encouraging boards to filter so much of what it is they do through a lens that tries to identify what the impact is on everything they do on African-Nova Scotian learners that keep that at the forefront?
MR. MACISAAC: I want to thank the honourable member for the question and for her comments. I would remind the honourable member and members of the committee that one of the major responsibilities of the African-Nova Scotian board member on our school boards is to ensure that what she is articulating does in fact occur and that is a constant reminder to the school boards and, we believe, one that in time will prove to be very effective. Personally, I'm very pleased with that initiative that has been put in place. Based on my own experience in working in high schools of this province, especially in Guysborough high school, the need for that level of involvement is considerable, and I believe that in time it will prove to be very significant.
With respect to Halifax, I understand that the level of consultation was perhaps not as would have been desired, but there is a commitment to ensure that there is further consultation in the future with respect to their decision making. I can point out to the honourable member that the plan calls for two positions now, reporting to two separate directors - the director of programs and the director of human resources. The school board has promised to consult with the African-Canadian groups before a final decision is made about the positions.
The department, as I indicated previously, for this fiscal year, is allocating $150,000 as the first instalment towards targeted funding for RCH at the school boards. This will assist them in securing staff and PD, and yes, the level of communication could have been greater. There's an acknowledgment of that and a commitment to do it. In the long term I believe that the role of the African-Nova Scotian school board member, in all of our boards, will play a very key role in ensuring that all of these issues are in fact addressed on a continuous basis, not just in a given budget year but will continue to - if I could use the phrase - become part of the culture of the board in terms of how they operate.
[Page 412]
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I also want to ask the minister about funding for the Black Educators Association. The Black Educators Association has been around for awhile. It provides services in various parts of the province. It does a lot of work tutoring young people and working with kids in various communities. I'm very lucky to have the Black Educators situated in my own constituency, doing work in the vicinity of inner-city schools and the junior high schools.
[6:45 p.m.]
What I would like to ask the minister is to what extent has the funding for the Black Educators Association changed in the last 10 years - to what extent has there been incremental increases in the Black Educators' budget over a 10-year period?
MR. MACISAAC: Perhaps, for the benefit of the committee, I could just provide a brief description of the association and something of the funding arrangement as I understand it. I would need to provide more detail in order to provide the 10-year history the honourable member seeks. It's a provincial grant to assist with the salaries and operating costs of the Regional Educators Program, and this grant is based on their program requirements and is administered by the Black Educators Association. The BEA's focus is on education, involving literacy programs, tutoring, education committees, anti-violence concerns, and equity.
The Black Educators Association provides opportunities and programs for the Black community to get involved with educational successes, and the amount of funding for that is $657,000 - that number, I understand, has been consistent for the last two years. As I indicated, with respect to the 10-year history the honourable member would like me to comment on, I would need to do some research before I could provide that commentary.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I would be very pleased to see what the trajectory has been for the Black Educators Association over a longer period of time. I think that I've been asking these questions now for five years, and I haven't seen an increase in the five years I've been here. I'm just wondering if it may be a longer period than that. I know some of the folks who provide tutoring service and the outreach work and the literacy work, they're an extraordinarily dedicated group of people. This is an organization that young people and families in the community I represent look forward to establishing their programs at the beginning of the school year, and they are sort of sad to see them end when the school year comes to an end.
I also want to ask the minister about whether or not there's been any evaluation done in his department vis-à-vis the student code of conduct. With the former minister, I think there was a student code of conduct introduced into the schools. There was an allocation of, I think, $100,000 to implement the student code of conduct. I know that quite recently the Halifax Regional School Board have been doing public meetings around the municipality,
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talking about violence and bullying, specifically bullying in the schools. I attended one of these meetings, and at this meeting there was some discussion about the usefulness of a student code of conduct.
It seems to me that this is an area - if government has introduced a code of conduct, we haven't seen the impact of that code of conduct, so I would like to know what, from the department's point of view, the impact has been of that code of conduct? Has there been an evaluation? Is there a plan to monitor? And, what exactly is the department doing with respect to classroom violence?
MR. MACISAAC: My understanding is there is an additional $50,000 in this year's budget for that program. I can tell you that we have committed to develop the code of conduct for students and teachers that recognizes and supports a respectful and healthy atmosphere of learning. That is something that we had some discussion about in the committee, I believe, on Thursday past. The code of conduct has been developed, and guidelines on the code, as well as a guide on teaching strategies to address behavioural issues will be implemented by January 2003. That has been completed. It will require extensive in-servicing to implement. Currently, three school boards are doing pilots in this area, with $25,000 grants from the department. No boards have consultant or coordinator positions/expertise in this area. This will provide seed funding for two more pilot projects, that is the amount of $50,000, which we've brought forward.
It is a matter which is of considerable importance to the department and to myself, because I really believe that a proper attitude of individuals within a school environment is essential for learning to take place and for individuals to feel that their capacities will in fact be allowed to flourish within such an environment. When there isn't the level of respect that's necessary for schools to function properly, then we're missing the boat. It is a huge challenge. I believe that we're obviously in a much different situation today than we were prior to the Charter of Rights, and how we achieve our objectives now will require considerable emphasis on the part of everyone to come to an understanding of our responsibilities of one to another within a school environment.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Yes, I think this is an area that is of very big concern to many parents, and certainly to teachers and administrators. I was in one of the schools in my constituency - I have five schools in my constituency, and three of the five schools are designated as inner-city schools - on the day I was in to visit, the principal was telling me about an incident that had happened the prior Friday, where a Grade 3 student had pulled a knife on a Grade 1 student in the school. These things are shocking when they occur, but they're happening. We really need to find the resources to deal with these kinds of situations.
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I want to ask the minister about the Department of Education requirement around transportation and busing. I represent a constituency where not so long ago a group of young people and their parents came to me to talk about how their kids are having a difficult time, especially in the winter, getting from where they live to the high school. These young people live just outside, in fact they live right on the cusp, you could say, of the 3.6-kilometre limit for transportation provided by the board to the kids. They have to buy bus passes, if they want to use the transit buses. Bus passes are $51 or $52 a month, and in families where you have two kids and you have incomes that are often $14,000, $15,000, $16,000 gross a year, this is just simply prohibitive.
One of the things we did was we staged a walk. I walked with the kids from their homes to the high school. I was amazed at the number of phone calls I got afterwards, not only from the very local area in which I had walked from but also all around the metro area. I got calls from families for whom the 3.6-kilometre distance is simply too far to walk, particularly in the harsh winter months that we've just had. I'm wondering, how was it - I get asked this often and I can't answer it - determined that 3.6 kilometres would be the distance from schools? That's the first question, and the second question is, how, exactly, is it measured when the measurement is actually done? There is some question about the accuracy of the measurements that are going on as the boards establish who is going to be provided with transportation and who isn't.
MR. MACISAAC: The honourable member is seeking some explanation as to the origin of the number, and I'm told that the origin goes so far back that it is a conversion of the English system of a distance of 1.5 miles. That, perhaps, can put us in the time frame in terms of when the distance might have been determined. At least we know that it was determined prior to a date when the metric system was implemented within this country, I provide that just to give you some sense of how far back it goes. That is a maximum figure. Boards are free to set their own policy within that framework, and indeed some boards use two kilometres as the distance, others use different figures.
I appreciate the concern the honourable member has expressed with respect to this issue, but that is my understanding of the history. I can only put it in a time frame, I can't be precise. We do know something about how old it is, and we do also know that boards have the latitude to set their own distances within that framework.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I have one other question for the minister, and it's about the underfunding of the Halifax Regional School Board. The Halifax Regional School Board, certainly as I was attempting to advocate for some flexibility around the transportation policy, consistently provided me with information that would indicate that they are underfunded on a per capita basis in comparison to other school boards around the province. Certainly this is increasingly becoming a sore point within the area. People in my constituency ask me why it is that this province and this government underfund this
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particular board to the extent that supplementary funding from the municipal government has become a way to provide services to the regional school board.
[7:00 p.m.]
Every year we see the same dance being played out here in the Halifax Regional School Board, where the music program and some of those other programs that are so needed and so valued in our board, like the Four-Plus Programs, like the designation of the inner-city schools and smaller class sizes, these things are all jeopardized when the board goes to the regional municipality to ask for supplementary funding and they present their information, which includes the inequity in funding for the Halifax Regional School Board. I think that sooner or later this little dance that goes on is going to end, and the people who will be hurt by this, I fear, are the children in our education system. I want to ask the minister, could he provide any kind of rational explanation for why the Halifax Regional School Board is underfunded?
MR. MACISAAC: First of all, I want to point out that the supplementary funding that is received by the Halifax Regional School Board is to provide funding for programs that are not part of the core program funded by the Province of Nova Scotia. So the programs that are funded by that are programs that are not available to other students in the province, at least not available through the core program as it exists.
With respect to the funding of school boards in the province, and the Halifax Regional School Board in particular, 90 per cent of the board funding is on a per student basis, as is the case for all boards. The remainder is allocated to the boards on the basis of cost pressure. Even if we take the figure of the per student allotment for school boards, then there are fundamental differences as you move from one part of the province to another. The transportation system that needs to be in place to deliver students to schools in the area referenced by the honourable member for Richmond, the Strait Regional School Board, that transportation system on a per student basis is far more expensive than the transportation system that is required to deliver students to schools in other boards, in particular in the Halifax Regional School Board.
There are differences in the cost pressures there. The honourable member for Richmond earlier made reference to the fact that we have schools with declining populations, both those schools need to be heated, those schools have an administration, those schools need to be maintained, there needs to be all of the services provided to those buildings that are provided to buildings that are full of students in, we'll say, the Halifax Regional School Board. So the amount of money that is available for a board such as the Strait board or a board such as Cape Breton or areas that have vast differences to transport students is quite a different problem than exists in other areas.
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That is not to say that there aren't unique problems to the Halifax Regional School Board as well. The per capita funding that is allocated, in many respects, can go considerably farther in some boards than it can in others. If you have a population that is much greater and more concentrated than you have in other parts of the province, then the efficiencies that you can achieve with the expenditure of those dollars is quite different than it is in areas of the province where enrolments are considerably less or in areas where students have to be transported considerable distances. For instance, the Halifax Regional School Board transports one-third of its students, other boards have to transport virtually all of their students, so the cost factor is quite different on a per student basis. (Interruptions)
I hear the honourable member making reference to Antigonish, unfortunately the new schools they built in Antigonish were built in such a location that now virtually all of the students are bused to that location, where - as I indicated earlier - had they been put in another location, more of the students might have been able to walk to that particular location. (Interruptions) No, those schools came on-stream much later than that, came on-stream while the honourable member who is interjecting was in fact a member of Cabinet. The locations were picked in that time frame.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage. The time will be 7:24 p.m.
MR. KEVIN DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the minister and thank my colleague, the member of Halifax Needham, for giving me an opportunity to take the next 18 minutes to talk about a few education issues related to my particular constituency and generally. I want to talk about the proposal made by the former minister and now this minister, in the same Department of Education, with regard to the promise to reduce class sizes to 25 or less children starting in Primary this year. It's of personal interest to me, obviously, because I have a son starting Primary in the Fall.
One of the things that was interesting was when we registered him in January or February - we registered him for French immersion - what we were told was that if, for example, there were 52 children who registered, that would mean there would be classes of 25 and two kids would have to be bused somewhere else, in which case - living in Eastern Passage - it could be a matter of an hour bus ride for a five-year-old child. I'm just trying to get a sense - and I assume this is happening all over the province - has your department taken into consideration some of these side effects of a policy of 25 or fewer children in a class, and some of the problems that might be created, particularly in the case of French immersion? What is your understanding of what will be happening and what funding will be provided to address them?
MR. MACISAAC: The member does raise a question that's worthy of consideration. We are prepared to be flexible in terms of accommodating the students and the needs of the students, in consultation with parents and school officials. Very often the initial numbers of
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enrolment may drop or be adjusted, and we would not want to make final decisions until such time as those numbers become firm and are clear in everyone's mind. There are situations where combined classes would be considered in order to meet that particular commitment. It is something that we are prepared to be flexible around, in consultation with parents and with school officials. It is something that we're very confident that we can meet our objective with respect to this commitment, but there may be some unique circumstances that would have to be addressed uniquely, but with that objective being clearly in mind.
MR. DEVEAUX: Is the minister trying to say that no matter whether its French immersion or English language Primary that the Department of Education is going to go on a case-by-case basis for each school? Is he saying they don't have a policy in place as to what to do? Quite frankly, if I'm aware of it, I suspect many other parents are being told the same thing, these circumstances may arise. Is there not a policy in place as to how that will be implemented, or are you saying that it's going to be done on a case-by-case basis?
MR. MACISAAC: There are expectations that are out there that are understood by the boards, but we've been quite clear from the outset that, for instance, a class of 26 is not going to become two 13s. That will not happen. We have had good discussions with school boards, school board officials and they understand what our expectations are. We don't anticipate making decisions on every single issue that might come forward. The guidelines are out there, our expectations are that the boards will work to achieve those guidelines. There will be certain circumstances that, perhaps, would have to be considered.
MR. DEVEAUX: Will the minister at least agree with me that the primary means by which this policy will be implemented is if there are slightly more children than 25 for a class that the other children will have to - in the case of this coming year, Primary - go into a Grade 1 class and there will be split classes? Will he admit or acknowledge today that is the main means by which you are going to deal with any overflows of more than 25 children in a Primary class?
MR. MACISAAC: We have, in fact, put in place funding that would allow for the hiring of 75 teachers in order to achieve this particular program. It is our expectation that the research that was done on that number is good research and we believe that it can be accomplished. Will there be situations where there will be mixed classes? The answer is yes, there will be. Will that be the solution in all instances? No, it won't be. There will be enough teachers and should be enough teachers in order to meet the objectives of the program.
MR. DEVEAUX: I want to talk - and maybe you've answered these questions from other members and I apologize if I'm going over ground that you've covered with other members in estimates, but I want to talk a minute about school construction over the next couple of years. I recall last year a letter being sent from - maybe it wasn't your predecessor - it might have been the deputy minister, it might have been Mr. Clattenburg from your department, but a letter sent to the school board in Halifax specifically outlining four schools
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that were the tentative list for schools for construction. That was in January 2002. That was a replacement for QEH-St. Pat's, a new high school for Middle Musquodoboit, I believe a mixed junior high-elementary school in the Jeddore area and there was an elementary school in Waverley. That was the original list back in January 2002. You then took that list and sent it to the school board and asked for them to confirm whether that's what they wanted or whether they wanted to adjust that list. I believe the school board wrote you back another list with three of those schools confirmed and I think, including the fourth, Hammonds Plains.
I guess I'm just trying to verify - what did the Halifax Regional School Board finally settle on as the four schools that it wanted constructed based on the list that you submitted to them?
MR. MACISAAC: Previously, I undertook to table the list of schools that the boards have put forward and we will table that particular list. I would want to point out to the honourable member that the School Capital Construction Committee when it went back to the boards was asking the boards for confirmation that this is their list. It is not our list that went back.
MR. DEVEAUX: So I take it the minister - maybe he can acknowledge with a head nod or shake - hasn't tabled those documents yet? No. I'm sure they'll come shortly after we finish estimates. I guess my question though is, there were four schools identified - presumably your government has identified four schools in the Halifax Regional Municipality be built. Over what time frame is that? Is that for 2003-04 or for the next three fiscal years? Over what time frame are we suggesting four schools will be built in the HRM?
[7:15 p.m.]
MR. MACISAAC: The schools in question are schools that would be under construction in the period from 2005 onward. We're currently concluding the current round of buildings and alterations and renovations. The next step would be from 2005 onward.
MR. DEVEAUX: So, you say 2005 onward. So, for example, I think your government's already announced the construction of a new school in Hammonds Plains. Can you tell me what year that is scheduled to be completed?
MR. MACISAAC: September 2005.
MR. DEVEAUX: When you say 2005 onward, this is all presuming what happens after the next election which I wouldn't want to presume, but if your government right now is projecting and your department is projecting that, these four schools in HRM will be built from 2005 onward, what do you mean; 2008, 2009, 2015? What exactly are we talking about as a timeline on the other end or is it an infinite number?
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MR. MACISAAC: Most of them we would anticipate being in the 2006, 2007, 2008 time frame.
MR. DEVEAUX: So, then would the minister say that if a school wasn't submitted on the list from the Halifax Regional School Board last year when you requested confirmation, that we're talking 2007 before there will be any new construction beyond those four schools on that list. Is that correct?
MR. MACISAAC: I thank the honourable member for the question. I want to make it clear that the list, if I can use that term, is not a permanent list in the sense that if school boards come forward and for a good and valid reason they say we need to change this priority, then the capital construction committee would have to do an evaluation of that request. That evaluation would come forward for consideration. However, the list at this juncture, the list when it is presented, will be a fairly clear guide of where we're going with respect to the future. Whether or not it is something that's written in stone forever would preclude the capacity to be able to respond to changing circumstances.
MR. DEVEAUX: I think I've got five minutes left. Okay, my question then is this - I understand what the minister is saying. That being the case, is the minister saying that if the list was submitted with four schools, the school boards come forward with a valid reason to alter that list. Four is the final number that will be built in the Halifax Regional Municipality between now and 2007, but which of those four schools it is depends on any priorities the school board sets. Or, is the minister saying it can go beyond those four schools if the school board comes forward with new schools that are a priority that need to be dealt with as well as those four?
MR. MACISAAC: Let me say to the honourable member that the number of schools that can be considered must be considered within the context of available funding. So, if for some good and valid reason a school board comes forward with a change that needs to be supported and that change requires the expenditure of considerably more money than was anticipated for some other project, then we obviously need to rework everything that's before us relative to that particular board, and we need to fit those requirements within the total program of the province, which is where the School Capital Construction Committee's work comes in, which is to prioritize the entire province. It does, very much, depend upon changing circumstances.
MR. DEVEAUX: Well, that doesn't answer my question. I understand what the minister is saying, but you keep using the word "change" which I interpret to mean that if the Halifax Regional School Board has submitted four schools in 2002 as what they want constructed between now and 2007, that the purse of money may result - let's say they want four high schools that might mean more money has to be spent, but my question is, is the minister saying it will only be four schools under his government's agenda, four schools built in HRM between now and 2007? I meant the school board wants to, as he uses the word,
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change that, one of those schools falls off the list and another one is added, or is it a matter if the school board wants to add to that list beyond those four, they have the right to do that, assuming the money is available?
MR. MACISAAC: The board always has the right to submit to the School Capital Construction Committee any changes that they wish and . . .
AN HON. MEMBER: The term change there . . .
MR. MACISAAC: Well, additions, deletions, however you want to characterize it. They obviously have the capacity to be able to do that. The School Capital Construction Committee would analyze the request and, based on that analysis, recommendations would be forthcoming, and the analysis of course would include extensive consultations with the board.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, is the minister saying, though, assuming that there are no further requests from the HRSB that it's his government's intention to build four schools in HRM between now and 2007?
MR. MACISAAC: More precise numbers will be forthcoming once Cabinet has completed its analysis and discussion of the matter and at that time it will become clearer.
MR. CHAIRMAN: At 20 seconds, the honourable member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage for closing comments.
MR. DEVEAUX: I will say that we will have another hour to keep asking these questions at another point later on. I look forward to talking to the minister again and continuing this conversation so we can try to nail down exactly how many schools HRM will be getting in the next five years.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton Nova for the Liberal caucus. It is 7:24 p.m., you have one hour in turn. The time for tonight's estimates will be 9:05 p.m.
MR. PAUL MACEWAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm not proposing to speak for an hour. I know the NDP will be very unhappy to hear that but, nonetheless, I propose that the honourable member for Cape Breton West, who is now busily completing some research of the Public Accounts and various other documents, will be in fine form in about 10 minutes when he gives me the signal that he has found the figures he needs to embarrass the government. In the meantime, I shall kill time with some reasoned remarks, I hope.
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Let me say that one of the great accomplishments of the Liberal Governments of Premier John Savage and Russell MacLellan was in the field of education, and specifically in the field of school construction. The school construction program that Savage and MacLellan had underway was the greatest school construction program in the history of Nova Scotia. Let that be said first.
AN HON. MEMBER: Right. For the record.
MR. MACEWAN: For the record. Now, it was called P3, and I don't know where that acronym came from, it wasn't like 30/60/90 or some of them that I know where they came from, this one just happened to come down from the sky.
AN HON. MEMBER: Public-private partnership.
MR. MACEWAN: Ah, someone over there has discovered what that stood for, and it did have a meaning, it wasn't just like NDP that means nothing. It was a formula, and it stood, yes, for public-private partnership. Now what was so terribly wrong about that? I know that the NDP had nightmares about P3, they thought it was absolutely terrible. (Interruptions) They issued press releases and manifestos and proclamations ad nauseam about how terrible this P3 was. People came to me asking what is P3, is that a new chemical that's been discovered? They didn't know what it was.
I said, well, you see that new school down the street that's going up? They said, oh, yes, that's the biggest school construction program we've ever had in the history of our community. I said, well, that's P3, that's what it is, it builds schools. Are you against schools? Oh, no, they said, we're not against schools at all. Then I would pull out the latest press release that I had from the honourable Robert Chisholm, who was then-Leader of the NDP saying if our Party gets in, we will abolish P3 immediately. Well, I said, now see what Robert Chisholm has said in this press release, that means that if he gets into office, he's going to tear down that new school that's under construction down the street - oh yes, because he said he would abolish P3 immediately, and what does abolish mean? Well, it means to cancel, to end, to annul.
So I had visions that if the NDP got in, the new school would come crashing down. When I heard that, I did not want the NDP to get in, Mr. Chairman. I didn't. So I spread the good word to my constituents that the NDP says that if they get in, the new school that's now under construction will come crashing down because it will be immediately abolished. Immediately abolished, so says Robert Chisholm. Oh, and to prove the point, I took quotes from Mr. Chisholm, not from his press release but from The Daily News and from The Chronicle-Herald. The Chronicle-Herald on such and such a date says: We will abolish P3 immediately if we get in - Robert Chisholm, Leader, New Democratic Party of Nova Scotia. Now take it for what the man says, I told him.
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This election coming up is like a referendum. It's like a referendum, a plebiscite on the question, do we want the new school or don't we? Vote yes if you want the new school, vote Liberal. Vote no if you don't want the new school, vote NDP. (Interruptions) If you're wondering about the PCS, they have 2 per cent of the votes, so that's why I don't talk about them. When the people had the question put to them, they overwhelmingly endorsed the new school. The people said that P3 was good. The people said it was good and that's why I stand here defending the school construction program that met public needs. What was wrong with it?
Now, the NDP say what was wrong with it was it was incorrectly financed, it wasn't financed according to the A + B theorem or whatever it is that they believe in down that way. It wasn't . . .
AN HON. MEMBER: Bye, bye, Paul.
MR. MACEWAN: Well, the people put me back in when I put these questions to them. That's where you guys can't get over the facts. Now, in Whitney Pier we had the new elementary school that goes from Primary to Grade 6, known as Harbourside. Harbourside was a $12 million construction project.
AN HON. MEMBER: Beautiful school.
MR. MACEWAN: A beautiful school they say, even the NDP admit it, a beautiful school.
AN HON. MEMBER: It's the financing . . .
MR. MACEWAN: It's the financing, they say, because it didn't adhere to the A + B theorem or whatever their financial doctrine this week happens to be. Their Party, as my friend the honourable member for Cape Breton South used to say, had a new flavour every day. Yes. So we don't know what they advocate, they just say they are against P3 and all that it stands for, meaning, as I said, they were against these new schools. Well, the new schools came anyway, notwithstanding the NDP, and let me tell you a little story, Mr. Chairman, because it wasn't just Harbourside School that was built in Whitney Pier. There was also the Greenfield School that was built in the riding of Cape Breton Centre to service young people from that riding and from my riding because they lived in adjoining communities. (Interruption) Yes, and I never once heard that the NDP said they didn't want that new school built there, not once, but they were against P3.
AN HON. MEMBER: We didn't want it financed the way you were financing it.
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[7:30 p.m.]
MR. MACEWAN: Who cares about how it's financed as long as it's built, as long as it's built, but if you want to learn about why it was financed that way, the answer was because the Liberals believed in not increasing the public debt. That's why it was financed that way, unlike the Conservatives, Mr. Chairman, who balanced the budget by going $50 million deeper into the hole, and unlike the NDP which in Ontario under Premier Bob Rae got the deficit and the debt there up to, down to, whichever way, $13 billion they put the Province of Ontario into, that crowd of "save the money" over there.
What did our school construction program do? It transferred the burden of financing the construction from the public sector to the private sector. Now what's so wrong with that? Well, Mr. Chairman, if you were a dogmatic socialist, you don't believe in the private sector. You think that everything should be under public ownership, that there should be the full nationalization of all the means of production, distribution and exchange. That is the classical formula of socialism. They want the government to own everything, no private sector whatsoever and, if you adhere to that point of view, then no wonder they would be against private sector construction, private sector exchange or private sector distribution. But you know they tried that in certain other countries and it didn't seem to work too well. It didn't seem to work too well, you know.
I remember - oh, I won't go back as far as Josif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili, better known as Stalin, I won't go that far back. I will go to perhaps the days of Konstantin Chernenko. In his days it was all right for collective farmers to have a one-acre plot, but not bigger, where they could raise their own vegetables and take them down to the market and sell them. So to that extent private enterprise was allowed in the Soviet Union, but what happened there was that they found that these little one-acre farms could produce more and better vegetables than the vast acreage of the collective farms, and in the long haul the collective farms were replaced by the kind of agriculture we have here in Canada with private farms because it was more efficient. It worked better and produced better tasting vegetables I'm told, doctor, if I'm not wrong. (Interruption) The doctor says I'm right, so I must be right.
Now, we get back to education. What I was just saying, Mr. Chairman, was about education because it's the absence of education that holds the NDP back. They still think that everything should be under public ownership. They still believe in nationalization. Oh, yes, everything. Even if they had their way, they would nationalize education quite obviously. They want all school construction to be not only done by contractors, I guess they're private sectors, they want a state-run construction company to build the schools. That's their model; that's their ideal. Now if we could set up the people's construction company under public auspices with all shares to be owned by the Province of Nova Scotia, they say that would be better than what we have now with private contractors doing construction jobs. You know you have to get the vision to see the picture, you have to.
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AN HON. MEMBER: State-run construction companies, would the Steen Bill have affected them?
MR. MACEWAN: I don't know, I don't know, but anyway let me get back to the topic of education and away from the rabbit tracks.
Let me say this, Mr. Chairman, our record in education was good because if you compare it by the yardstick of how many schools did we build as compared to how many schools did they build - or they - you find they didn't build any. They didn't build any, and these people over here are moving forward at a very slow pace, you might say a snail's pace, as compared with the great Liberal advance of new schools.
AN HON. MEMBER: Revolutionary, right?
MR. MACEWAN: Well, as Smallwood would say in Newfoundland, it was almost revolutionary, it was, yes, brilliant indeed. That's why they couldn't tolerate that government being in power and had to put that government in. That's the NDP answer.
In any event, Mr. Chairman, we got new schools under the Liberals. We're not getting them under the Conservatives because they're following the advice of the NDP and financing everything through the ordinary, orthodox, doctrinaire socialist way and, because the public purse is bankrupt, in spite of their claim of having balanced the budget by going deeper into debt daily, there isn't the money there to build more schools. Now we have some need for new schools, and I see my good friend, the member for Cape Breton Centre, down there - I'm not going to try to invade his turf. He looks after it quite well - he will tell you I am sure when he gets his turn, that they need a new high school in Dominion.
We have the member for Glace Bay over here, he's not - well, I am not supposed to say he's not here right now, but anyway we have the member for Glace Bay over here and he will tell you the same thing. We do need a new high school in Dominion because they're tearing the high school there down right now. I just drove past it this past weekend and the windows were all boarded up and moving vans were there to take out whatever was movable inside. I guess the bulldozer will be by next week or so, or maybe the wrecking ball on the end of a crane taking down the school in one day.
Our government, Mr. Chairman, built schools. This government tears them down, tears them down. Now, have I said enough to be educational on these matters? Does that mean a minute is left?
AN HON. MEMBER: Collective farming. I'm interested in collective farming.
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MR. MACEWAN: Do you want to get into collective farming? Well, we will have to do that under the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. Yes. I think the honourable member for Cape Breton West is well ready now to take up the challenges and, having said my piece, I rest my case.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the Minister of Education wish to respond to the member for Cape Breton Nova's dissertation?
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I thoroughly enjoy the honourable member for Cape Breton Nova when he gets to his feet almost as much today as I did when I first heard him here I believe 34 years ago. It's interesting that on those occasions when he would get to his feet, he in fact sounded very much like a dogmatic socialist to me, and I can say, as I listened to him today, what a difference 34 years makes. I don't know if honourable members on this corner of the House were to remain here for another 34 years, whether they would undergo such a transformation or not, but it has certainly been enlightening to listen to the honourable member and hear him expound upon the values of Liberalism. It's interesting, but I can say that I would always defend anyone's right to change their mind.
With that in mind, I would point out to the honourable member that indeed we are building schools in this province. We have spent $7 million on the construction of the Shipyard Elementary, that's the St. Anthony Daniel. There's another $26 million for Halifax West, and I was quite pleased to have been able to attend the opening of that particular facility, along with the Premier and the honourable member for Halifax Bedford Basin, and it's a wonderful facility and tremendous progress was made in the building of that facility with respect to the needs that have to be attended to relative to the building of schools and the environmental advancements that were made in the design of that school. The safety advancements that were made in the design of that school were very significant and a great deal of progress was made in that particular facility.
The school in Windsor, the Avonview high school, that is a project involving $18 million to serve the needs of 950 students, and that school is underway and it will be open at the end of September 2003. There is also the Rankin School, an amount of $6.2 million, and it will open in September 2005. South Colchester High School, $20 million, that's going to be open in September 2003 for 810 students. The East Pictou High School, an amount of $21 million, that will open in September 2003. The West Pictou High School will be open in September 2003, an amount of $22.5 million, and the Truro Junior High School is ready to go to tender, and that is a project to serve the needs of 525 students.
The Amherst Elementary School is scheduled to open in September 2004, serving the needs of 450 students, a budgeted amount of $8.1 million. The Cumberland Elementary School, serving the needs of 350 students - I'm sorry, the Amherst Elementary School will be open in 2005 and similarly with the Cumberland Elementary, it will open in 2005. The Shelburne High School, serving the needs of 570 students, will be open in September 2004.
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We are building schools and we will be coming forward with an additional building program in the very near future which will take us well into the latter years of this decade with respect to school construction, as well as alterations.
The honourable member spent a great deal of time on the virtues of P3. I can tell you, with my limited experience with those facilities, there were a number of shortcomings. One, of course, was related to the amount of land that was provided for recreation facilities for the students of those schools - found to be severely lacking. Access to the schools is an issue. We have recent evidence of that and the costs associated with that with respect to the contracts that were signed, which left a great deal to be desired. We have issues with respect to location of the schools. One of the schools in my riding, we had to find an additional $800,000 in order to ensure that there was sufficient access for that school so that the students would not be denied safety in the event that there was an emergency of some sort, and to accommodate the flow of traffic in and out of that school.
So I can say to the honourable member that there were a lot of shortcomings in that particular program. We will be building schools. We will be funding them adequately and, Mr. Chairman, I can say that those schools will belong to the people of this province and available to the people of this province for their use.
[7:45 p.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton West.
MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, on Page 47 of the Supplement to the Public Accounts, Holiday Inn Harbourview, $91,934.27. Would the minister please apprise members of the committee what that's for?
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, the Holiday Inn Harbourview expenditure of $91,000 was composed of the following: there were math/English/chemistry workshops involving teachers from all across the province who came for those workshops, and that was an amount of $84,760 - and I would point out that that's workshops, plural, paid to that facility for those workshops; Active Young Readers, Primary to Grade 3, focus group meetings, that was an amount of $4,442.85; the Nova Scotia Teachers Union bargaining negotiations, there was an expenditure there of $1,386.25; there were accommodations for meetings - two items - $684 for one and $275 for another, meeting expenses, $195.89; and Scotia Learning negotiations, $186.23. The total of all those items is $91,934.27.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for that information. It strikes me a little ironic because last year when his predecessor was doing her budget, the total hotel bill for the Department of Education was somewhere in the vicinity of $185,000 and at that time she went to great pains to try to defend the $185,000, but also gave an undertaking to members of the committee at that time that she would make an effort to
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reduce those costs. Now if we were to take that $91,934 and add it on to all the other hotel bills across the province that were incurred by the department which, by the way, add up to $251,563, add that to the $91,934 and we have the Department of Education spending $343,497 on hotel bills. Now, that's almost double what the Minister of Education indicated in the committee last year would not grow, but rather would be reduced.
Now, Mr. Chairman, just so the minister will be aware, if you go through each individual line item, we have ones like Citadel Halifax Hotel, $35,525.85; we have the Delta Halifax, $12,463.55; we have Holiday Inn Select, $7,570.44; we have the Lord Nelson Hotel, $23,328.26; we have the Old Orchard Inn, $31,178.89; we have the Park Place Ramada Plaza Hotel, $28,344.37; we have the Prince George Hotel, $32,388.61; we have The Westin Nova Scotian, $11,961.44; and we have White Point Beach Lodge Ltd., $21,807.30. That is a lot of money on hotel bills for a department that's looking for ways to save money, despite the fact that his predecessor indicated that the $185,000 "seemed a little excessive, but she would do everything in her power to reduce that cost." Why is it that the total hotel bill for the Department of Education has effectively doubled in one year?
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I would want to point out to the members of the committee that the figures to which the honourable member is referring are for the fiscal year which ended March 31, 2002, and that is clearly an entire year ago, relative to that.
The honourable member should understand - and I'm sure he does, Mr. Chairman, he just simply can't resist the lure of the numbers - that in order for us to consult with our teachers, it is necessary for us to bring those teachers together and to bring them together it is necessary to pay their expenses when they're here visiting in the city. That, we believe, is worth the price of that consultation, because they are the people who need to implement all of the programs which we put forward in our public schools. Without that consultation, the level of involvement of our teachers in this province would not be what it should be in order to have an effective implementation. Indeed, we do bring the teachers from across the province, and we will continue to bring teachers in from across the province for consultation, especially with the new initiatives which we have brought forward as a government.
I make no apologies to anybody for being heavily involved in consulting with our teachers. We will continue to involve them in the process of education, and that process requires bringing them in. Well, I hear the honourable member for Dartmouth talking over there. Perhaps he doesn't fully appreciate what's involved in a teacher travelling from Yarmouth into Halifax for consultation and the expenses that are involved in that, because he travels across the bridge and those are the expenses he has relative to it. The honourable members for Cape Breton certainly appreciate the expenses involved in travelling all the way to Halifax for consultation. As I indicated, we will continue to provide that support to our teachers in order to ensure that they are very much a part of the consultations that are required for us to carry out our programs and to implement new programs.
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MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, have you ever heard of such patronizing hogwash. That's exactly what we heard from the minister saying oh, that this is supplementary detail from the previous year. Well, the minister who defended the budget last year could say the same thing for the figures that she put on the table, the $185,000. The fact of the matter is, in a one-year period, under this watch, when they said that they were going to reduce the expenditures to hotels in this province - which by the way if the minister would check a little closer he would find that they're not all in metro, they're around this province, they're across this province. Old Orchard Inn is not in the capital city, and the other hotel, White Point Beach Lodge, that doesn't sound like a facility here in metro. I am sure, if we went through other details we would find there are quite a few.
Mr. Chairman, we have a lot of empty schools that the Department of Education could be using. We have a lot of office space, by the various school boards in this province, that could be used. We have a lot of facilities by Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations that could be used. There is a lot of empty space that could be used. For this minister to try to justify why we're now spending $344,000 on hotel bills while they're closing schools, while they're saying there's not enough money for books, while they're saying there's not enough money for teachers - my colleague from the Strait area asked about teaching cutbacks, and the minister chastised him for even trying to raise the issue and suggested that he was being a little bit politically mischievous.
The fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman, the government has its priorities mixed up. The Minister of Education indicated quite clearly that $185,000 was indeed a lot of money, and now this year, even though it's supplementary detail - he can blame it on his predecessor if he wishes, but he's still a member of that Cabinet, he's still a member of that government, it's their watch, and they almost doubled the amount of money that was spent on hotel bills. For the life of me, whether it's a P3 school, a conventionally built school, or whatever, with all the facilities that the Department of Education has across this province, for the minister to suggest that this is what we had to pay to accommodate the teachers, blame it on the teachers. It's always somebody else's fault that the department had to spend the money on this particular line item.
Mr. Chairman, I don't think that's acceptable. I don't think it's fair. I do agree with the minister that there are instances where, if there are contractual negotiations going on back and forth and they need a facility, that type of exclusion and protective insulation from the media and from certain individuals or elements that would perhaps compromise the negotiations, you need that type of isolation, but surely to heavens I hope the minister is not suggesting that the school board offices of this province are bugged. I hope he's not suggesting that there aren't enough facilities owned by the Department of Education or the Department of Transportation and Public Works that could not be utilized.
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The $344,000 is a lot of money; I think that is absolutely excessive. I would ask if the minister could give us some clarity, perhaps through his deputy minister because his deputy minister is the same deputy minister who was here before budgets last year when the Minister of Education defended the $185,000-plus. Now we're up to $344,000. If he's receiving that same type of professional advice, he could enlighten us, give us some clarity as to why the bill is going up when they gave us assurance, with the same deputy minister, that the bill was going to go down.
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, there's a couple of things to point out to the members of the committee. When my predecessor made a commitment with respect to the expenditure of funds, at the time that she would have made that commitment those funds for the year in question had already been expended. The member knows that, so for him to bring forward the numbers within this context, I think he owes the committee an explanation as well. I am glad to see him acknowledging that that in fact was the case.
I referenced bringing to Halifax, but indeed teachers go to various parts of the province, but it doesn't matter, once they leave their own home they require accommodation, wherever it is that they go. I am sure the honourable member is not suggesting that we issue pup tents or that we travel around with Winnebagos and pick them up. The fact of the matter is that wherever it is they go, they must be accommodated. That requires that they have a room, that is the standard that is acceptable, that there is a room for them. I don't believe the honourable member is suggesting that we put three or four teachers to a room. The teachers do need to take on nourishment while they are here or while they are in the Valley or while they are at whatever location in the province that it is.
There are occasions, Mr. Chairman, when we negotiate the accommodations that are made available to teachers who are brought in for consultation, and part of the negotiation would include the hotel providing meeting rooms that are made available to us. The honourable member references all of the facilities that exist within various government departments. The honourable member knows that those facilities are, in fact, booked by department personnel and they're used on an ongoing basis. He knows there are logistic problems with respect to moving people about the city in order to get to meetings that would be in Service Nova Scotia in the morning, and he would have us at the Department of Labour in the afternoon, and over at the Department of Transportation and Public Works in the evening.
[8:00 p.m.]
That's the kind of arrangements that he would make. Those arrangements aren't acceptable. Mr. Chairman, it's interesting to hear his views and how he would operate things and what it is that he would be prepared to do for the teachers of this province by way of consultation.
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MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, have you ever heard such condescending hogwash. He knows full well that his predecessor was the minister in 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2002. For him to play bafflegab, knowing full well that the supplement that's here was her supplement, the supplement for the year before was hers, the year before that was hers, and the year before that was hers. So for him to try to pretend that he had nothing to do with it and she had nothing to do with it is misleading this House, this committee. I take great exception to the fact that he would downplay and downgrade the importance of this government spending almost $344,000 on hotel bills because this government, who made a commitment to reduce the cost of expenditure on hotel rentals across this province, is now increasing the cost.
For him to suggest that perhaps we would like to set up in pup tents or he would like to know our plan for managing, Mr. Chairman, if he wants to examine the detail on the last department that I managed, I came in 10 per cent under budget. That's because his caucus, that was on this side of the floor at that time, that's what they wanted. That's what they wanted, that's what they got. For that minister to sit there with that type of neo-conservative, condescending attitude, patronizing the people of Nova Scotia as if they're doing us a big favour by explaining why they spent more instead of less, shouldn't there be more money going into the classroom instead of hotel rooms? I think that's a fair question.
When the government, the minister is cutting back on programs, cutting back on the number of teachers in this province, talking about taking away the heart and soul of school boards in this province by suggesting that curriculum and busing, facilities and transportation, should be taken away from the school boards, and legislation will be introduced in the year 2004. What a coincidence, after the election. The minister makes the suggestion that, indeed, all I have to do is look at the Financial Measures Act of two years ago. Yes, Mr. Chairman, his colleague, the Minister of Finance, set the stage to go in and surreptitiously remove the power and authority and the independence of these boards, but the minister won't say that.
He won't be clear enough as to what the plan is. They're having their Cabinet deliberations. They're having their buck-passing scenarios. Oh yes, that was a letter from his predecessor, gone to the Strait board, which, by the way, was sent to all school boards. Be very clear. The government, this minister, this department, the Premier, the Minister of Finance, they would not undertake this proposal unless they felt that they were going to save money.
How are they going to save money? They're going to reduce staffing levels at the various school boards across this province, because they feel they can do it better in downtown Halifax, at the Trade Mart building. Mr. Chairman, what about in your constituency and all the other constituencies across this province, the question of renewing contracts for busing, and they start talking about contracting out? What about the cleaning staff? What about the support staff? What about the teachers' aides?
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Mr. Chairman, if they think for one minute that the people of Nova Scotia are not going to catch on to what this government is planning after the next election, heaven forbid if they should ever get elected. They're going to slash and they're going to gut school boards across this province. He hinted that last Friday. He hinted at that through the letter that his predecessor, the honourable Jane Purves wrote to the school boards, only weeks before she left the department, only weeks. What a coincidence.
Yes, the same issue that the previous CEO of the Halifax Regional School Board addressed before the Public Accounts Committee. You, Mr. Chairman, were a member of the Public Accounts Committee at the time, when he publicly conceded that discussions were ongoing between himself, other CEOs of school boards in the province and the deputy minister on the issue of transfer of transportation and facilities.
Why would the province even bother? What's to be gained? What's broken? What's broken at the school boards? Yes, the minister and the government and a lot of stakeholders in this province have raised concerns about what happened at the Strait Regional School Board, and there is a process to deal with that, and I respect that and I understand that. There are a number of outstanding issues, which I believe that the government did take some good corrective measures on. But does that justify stripping all the boards right across this province?
Mr. Chairman, when you go back to your constituency or any other Tory backbencher in rural Nova Scotia goes back to their constituencies, are they going to explain to the teachers, to the parents, to the students, to the teachers' aides, to the cleaning staff, to the support staff, to the bus drivers, to the maintenance staff in the garages and so on? How are they going to explain it? How are you and your colleagues going to explain to the people in rural Nova Scotia that this government wants to centralize educational services in downtown Halifax?
The writing is on the wall, Mr. Chairman. The minister has a nice smile about it. He can be a very pleasant individual, at times, not too often during budget. He has waxed eloquent here today. But what's happening and what's contemplated is what the people of Nova Scotia really don't know, and that's what concerns me. The Minister of Education has not been, in my view, as forthright on this issue as he could have been. He suggested, when I raised the issue about transportation and facilities, that's only one of a number of scenarios. If that's only one of a number of scenarios, what are the other scenarios?
How much money will the Department of Education save? How much money will the Department of Finance save? How much money will be derived by this takeover of the school boards in the province? The minister himself, during estimates the other day, indicated that he was very much in favour of the boards being focused on curriculum, on education. Well, Mr. Chairman, the contracts for teachers are now negotiated by the
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province. Okay. I mean, the school boards in the final analysis, with no responsibility for busing, and there are a lot of issues that are important on this issue in rural Nova Scotia.
What about all these roads in rural Nova Scotia, where the bus can't go on the dirt roads because of icy conditions and so on? What's going to happen? There's no safety mechanism there, whereby school board representatives or the CEOs or the manager of transportation can call the Department of Transportation and Public Works and say, we have to get this road sanded or whatever or else these students aren't going to school. If the government controls the whole thing, very systematically they can say, oh, that's being handled by that department and we will get back to you a little later today. Well, a little later today doesn't really come all the time. It will come tomorrow.
If they're trying to find ways to cut back on the sanding and salting of the roads, what a great way if they have control of all that, what a great way if they want to contract out on the busing. It's very easy, Mr. Chairman. This is a major issue. Yet, they will find $344,000 for hotel bills. Give us a break. The minister would suggest that our plan would be to set up pup tents. Is that the level of debate that this minister would like to take it to?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. Order, please. It's very difficult to hear in committee here. I was just wondering if honourable members would turn down those (Interruptions) Order, please. Thank you, honourable members.
The honourable member for Cape Breton West has until 8:24 p.m.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, this proposed takeover of the school boards that the minister alluded to the other day has major implications. Let's just look at the busing situation that I was focused on. What happens if the province takes over busing? The question is, how will that improve education in our schools at the local level? The minister hasn't explained that. Staff from the Department of Education have not explained that. How will that save the department money, to put more resources into the classroom? I think they are legitimate concerns. If the government is using this budget as a platform or a blueprint to move to the next level - it was the Minister of Education, by the way, who introduced this into the discussion on Thursday past by asking us to refer to the Financial Measures (1999) Act that the Minister of Finance introduced - I'm not sure what section it was, perhaps 76, it was towards the back - the Minister of Finance, I'm sure, would be able to point to it - where all these agencies, boards and commissions and any other school boards, municipalities, at the stroke of a pen would have to go onto the same provincial computer management systems as the province.
He introduced this into the discussion, so that's fine. If that's the benchmark, he's effectively confirmed what Mr. David Reid indicated when he was before the Public Accounts Committee two years ago. So the plan is there. Obviously, it's a financial
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consideration. The government feels that they're going to be able to save millions of dollars. They haven't said that.
So, on this issue of busing. What about all the service garages? Are we going to have the same staffing levels at the local level or are they going to be transferred over to, perhaps, Transportation and Public Works to be operated by the provincial complement? What will that mean in staffing levels? Go back and ask the school bus drivers in Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley. These are legitimate concerns. What about the teachers' aides? What about the cleaning staff in the various schools?
We saw what happened in the Halifax Regional School Board during that very unpleasant strike several years ago, the Department of Education sat back quietly and did nothing while Mr. Reid tried to steer the board towards contracting out vital services. The implications of that were profound. What happened in the end? Things got settled down and Mr. Reid is now back in Ontario. With all due respect, perhaps that's where he should have stayed, because there was considerable consternation that was brought upon this school board in Halifax and this province because of his high-handed approach to dealing with educational matters at the Halifax Regional School Board. I didn't see too many tears shed for Mr. Reid when he left. At least he told us when he appeared before the Public Accounts Committee what was being contemplated by the Department of Education, that there was a planned takeover of these major issues.
It will be interesting to see the Tory backbenchers and all members of the Tory caucus go back to their ridings and explain to the stakeholders in the various school boards what they're planning on doing with this dramatic shift of public policy. Not only that, you take for example the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board. The maintenance and the cleaning staff - what will happen there? Is the government contemplating contracting out that as well once this piece of legislation is introduced in the Spring of 2004 if by any chance it were to be re-elected?
I think, in absence of all the information, anything is possible. Let's not forget, it was the Premier and this government that said we have to adopt the Rumsfeld plan - control and manage information systems and our stakeholders. In other words, only give them what we need them to know to make them happy with us. That's what the government is trying to do in this case. They're trying to gloss over what the real agenda is. It will be interesting to see Department of Education officials go back to the school boards and meet with not just the CEOs of the boards, but meet with the various representatives, labour components - whether it be the cleaning staff, whether it be the busing staff, whether it be the mechanics in the garages, whether it be those in maintenance that do the general repair of these facilities.
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[8:15 p.m.]
The government has a $500 million deficit on deferred maintenance. How are they going to deal with that? The question is, they have not explained how they're going to deal with that. They said, let's get rid of P3 because that's not working. Okay, let's go with that. I don't necessarily agree, I agree that there were problems in the process, but let's go with that. So, what are your going to do with that $500 million deferred maintenance? Where are you going to get the money? Are you going to continue to grow the debt? Is that what you're going to do - continue to borrow $100 million to $150 million a year and then say you're not going to put another cent on the debt? That's what you're doing. You can't have it both ways. Or, are they going to start slashing and burning at the school board level? Are they going to have reduction in cleaning staff? Are they going to contract that out? Are they going to contract the busing services out? Are they going to contract the janitorial services, the bus maintenance, the mechanics, the building maintenance crews - are they going to contract all that out?
Are they going to find it a lot easier once the election is over and contracts have expired, that they'll go back and say to the teachers - we negotiate contracts now and we'll have another three or four years, we don't care if we get some bad press or not the first couple of years. What we're going to tell you is, you're in school A, we're going to ship you over to school B 20 miles away. This is the way this type of heavy-handed attitude becomes a reality with this type of mindset. So the minister can make mocking comments about setting up in pup tents and what's our plan, but the reality is, he hasn't outlined what his plan is. He hasn't outlined his plan for the $500 million deferred maintenance, for school capital construction - it's only after considerable prodding that we got the information on what the school board's priorities were.
What about this proposed legislation in 2004? What is it? That's one of many options the minister says - transportation and facilities. What does that really mean? He says school boards should only be concerned with education, curriculum. By golly, let's be realistic. We've gone through a lot of different forms of osmosis at the school board level over the years. We had the local district school boards, then we went to the regional school boards where we had one-third appointed by the provincial government, one-third by the municipal, one-third elected. Then we went to fully elected school boards. Now we have the fully elected school boards with the Department of Education having one spotter in each department, effectively behind the scenes, trying to steer the agenda. We saw that just with the Halifax Regional School Board on establishing the School Capital Construction Program.
Tell me there isn't politics in that?
AN HON. MEMBER: They sent their men there, they sent their people there.
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MR. MACKINNON: Their minions are there. They can use whatever terminology they want, but where's it going? If they have such a crystal clear plan - in the Tory blue book, they indicated that they would have a plan for capital school construction. Where is it? We may be a month or less or maybe a couple of months from an election. That's four years ago. Where's the plan? At least Tattoo on Fantasy Island knew what his plan was. I mean, come on, where's the meat. There's no plan for deferred maintenance. There's no plan for capital construction. There's no plan as to how they're going to deal with facilities and transportation. There's no plan to tell the stakeholders of this province what the minister and his staff are contemplating for the parents, the teachers, and most importantly the students, the school board officials, the staff at the local levels.
Mr. Chairman, we have these PTOs and home and school groups in these communities all across Nova Scotia, very, very important. I will just give you an example. Several weeks ago, if it wasn't for the parent-teacher organizations, or the parents' organizations, the music program at the Halifax Regional School Board could very well have been in jeopardy but, do you know what happened, they were a vested stakeholder that had an opportunity to participate in the process. We have no guarantee that that type of opportunity will be available anymore. Everything will now be controlled down at the Trade Mart Building in the Eiffel Tower because certain stakeholders within the Department of Education feel that pop-down effect. Where is all the consultation, where is this open and accountable government? Where is it? Why aren't they giving it to us? Why is it four years into the mandate and the minister is talking about pup tents. Is that all the minister can talk about, pup tents, while they're wasting money on hotel bills and they won't tell us what their plan is for deferred maintenance. They won't tell us what their capital construction priority listing is or their plan.
Mr. Chairman, I think that's wrong and I think it's most unfair to the students. It's most unfair to the students because this is all part of the Rumsfeld plan - keep them in the dark, only give them the information that we want them to know so that they will feel good about us, you know, that's how we manage our stakeholders. It's streamline the information, you know. This is not CenCom that we're dealing with. This is the Government of Nova Scotia. This is the people of Nova Scotia. These are the taxpayers who deserve an answer. They are the stakeholders, they and their children and their children's children, and for the minister to stand up and make kind of mocking remarks about the fact that it wasn't his budget, or it wasn't his predecessor's budget from the previous year as if it didn't matter and then start referring to Opposition and suggesting that they would set up pup tents, how ridiculous.
I mean, we're at this level of debate and a $5 million a year budget and he drags it down to that level. I think that's disgraceful. I think it's absolutely disgraceful. We need to know what the Department of Education is planning for these school boards over the next fiscal year and beyond. If the minister can talk about the plan for capital construction after
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2005 plus, surely to heavens he can tell us what the plan is for the school boards. Mr. Chairman, I realize the time for estimates has expired.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That's correct.
MR. MACKINNON: So I will look forward to continuing this rather lively debate with the minister on a future date.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The time for estimates in turn has expired, but now we will look towards the NDP caucus and we will recognize - the minister wants to respond. Yes, Mr. Minister, I apologize.
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I don't think it would be fair to the committee for me to sit idly by and not pass some comment on the diatribe to which we've all been exposed. The simple question is, I find it hard to know precisely where to begin, but let me begin with the issue of governance and the situation as it presents itself to this government and the situation experienced by school boards within the province. There are two very important factors that relate to the issue of governance which have been left for this government to address and the first is that we had a situation within one of our school boards where there were questionable expenditures, questionable expenditures to the point where we were able to lay claim to $500,000 in insurance money, okay.
Now, who set up the school board structure that allowed that situation to develop, I ask you, Mr. Chairman? The people responsible for creating that structure of governance were the previous government. The honourable member who just took his seat was a member of that government and he must be accountable to the people of this province for putting in place a governance structure that would allow that situation to develop within a school board. So he can accept responsibility for that. Are we taking steps to deal with the issue of governance? We certainly are because we have to take those steps based on what we inherited as a government.
The second reason we must address the issue of governance is because the Auditor General in his comments came forward and said that over time, and time related to when those members were in office, Mr. Chairman, and time that passed under a governance structure created by that previous government, that that governance structure allowed a situation to develop in this province where there was a very serious deficiency with respect to the maintenance of our buildings.
We were left to deal with that problem and we are dealing with it, Mr. Chairman. We will address the issue of governance in this province and I can relate to members of the committee a conversation that I had this morning with the chairman and members of the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board. I indicated to that board that they should not look forward to any significant change in the governance structure other than for us to find ways
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in which they can become more efficient with respect to the expenditure of funds and become more accountable with respect to the expenditure of funds because they did not put in place a system of accountability that worked. So we indicated to that board that we would be doing that as we move forward, Mr. Chairman.
We secondly indicated to the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board this morning, and I relay this to all school boards and to the people of this province, that indeed the challenge presented to us by the Auditor General is a challenge that we intend to meet and that challenge specifically focuses on the issue of maintenance of our schools in this province. That challenge did not enter into the realm of transportation and I was quite clear with the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board this morning, as I was on Thursday afternoon with media on Cape Breton Island, that we have absolutely no intention of moving into the transportation business. That is something that school boards are adequately equipped to deal with. The optimum size of a transportation system, indeed, is within the size of school boards and indeed, with some boards, they have more than one transportation system.
Now, the honourable member made reference to the contracting out of services. Well, the system that he created allowed many boards to contract out services of various kinds and the P3 program which he is so willing to defend, Mr. Chairman, has in it provisions where much of the maintenance and the operations of the schools are subjects of contracting out, nothing new in that because they created a situation where that would be permitted to take place and permitted to happen. So for him to be standing in his place and posing these as some sort of ominous threatening questions, I believe, is really misleading. Well, not mislead, mislead is a strong word that the chairman does not care for me to use, nor do I care to use it, but it does create an impression that perhaps is not worthy of being created by the honourable member with respect to his intentions and the intentions of his Party. Now, what is interesting is to listen to the extent to which the honourable member defends the P3 process when his Leader has in fact dismissed the process and says it is not something that he is prepared to accept and prepared to go along with.
[8:30 p.m.]
You know, it's indeed unfortunate, Mr. Chairman, that the Leader of his Party did not take him up on the offer to run in his seat on Cape Breton Island because had he taken him up on that offer, then the conflict of opinion and the conflict of policies that confront them as a result of the Leader having opinions different than that of the honourable member could have been avoided and, of course, the Leader of their Party could have been here in the House to defend his own actions and defend his own policies within the House.
Mr. Chairman, those are comments that I would like to make with respect to the issue of governance. We were faced with a situation where we had to correct some very serious deficiencies relative to governance as a result of the structure created by that government
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when they were in office. We also inherited a situation with respect to the deferred maintenance on our schools and our buildings that require our attention. We are providing attention to those matters and we will be working with school boards in arriving at answers to those particular questions.
The honourable member spent a considerable amount of time suggesting that somehow the expenditures that he referenced got higher in the 2001-02 fiscal year. The fact of the matter is that those expenditures actually reduced from 2001-02 from what they were in 2000-01. In 2000-01 the total expenditure was $357,658 and the expenditure in the fiscal year referenced by the honourable member was $302,937.82, a reduction of $57,000, and that is very significant, but what is very interesting is to listen to the honourable member and his suggestion that somehow we shouldn't be bringing teachers forward to consultation. (Interruption)
You can always tell when he doesn't like the point you're getting at because his mouth becomes uncontrollable and his tongue wags freely, which is what's happening now, Mr. Chairman. He's across the way and he's not going to like the references that I make, but at any rate he would suggest that we should not have a provincial Apprenticeship Board meeting because we shouldn't be spending money on hotels. Now, I don't know if he wants to offer a barn to the Apprenticeship Board members. (Interruption) No, you had your turn, sit down.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I won't go with the disrespectful attitude of the minister, but rather just to deal with the specifics and that is I would ask the chairman to observe and he will find that at no point in time did I ever, ever suggest that I did not want the Apprenticeship Board to meet.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for your comment. Mr. Minister, you have the floor.
MR. MACISAAC: All right, so that then, Mr. Chairman, is an expenditure of $2,739.96 that he would have approved of. Then perhaps he's objecting to an expenditure of $918.88 for a Canadian history workshop. Is that what he's saying to the committee, that that workshop should not be held for Canadian history? (Interruptions) Or is he saying that rehab staff (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Order, please. Order, please.
The minister has the floor.
MR. MACISAAC: Or is he suggesting that the rehab staff's travelling expenses of $782 should not have been paid? Or perhaps this is the number that he objects to, Mr. Chairman, $8,801.86 for the Active Young Readers planning sessions. Is that what it is that he objects to? He has already indicated that he doesn't want the Apprenticeship Board to go,
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but he has made no comment about the rest so I can only assume he didn't want those sessions to take place; the Black young learners reading strategy workshop, $4,120.77, the workplace health and safety workshop, $4,004.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I will make the accusation, this minister is deliberately misleading the committee by suggesting (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Order, please. Member, I'm going to ask you to take your seat until I speak. It's not a point of order, but your comments are very disrespectful and I'm going to ask you to apologize for the phrase of misleading the committee and you know well.
MR. MACKINNON: No, Mr. Chairman, I would rather leave than listen to this type of buffoonery.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, he didn't apologize, but he is leaving the Chamber and you have the floor, sir. It has been accomplished (Interruption) Just one second, Mr. Minister.
Order, please. Order, please. (Interruption)
The chairman did not kick the member out. He offered to leave.
The minister has the floor.
MR. MACISAAC: I can't reference the (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister, you have the floor.
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I'm unable to reference the presence or absence of an honourable member, but it is unfortunate that he will not be able to hear some of the other matters in which the money has been spent because I would have been very interested to receive his guidance. I've received guidance on one item that he suggested the Apprenticeship Board should in fact meet, but I wanted to know whether he thought that the young Black learners reading strategy workshop should not have been held, or the workplace health and safety workshop should not have been held. The junior high math committee meeting and chemistry meetings, perhaps he could indicate to us whether they should or should not have been held. The co-operative discipline workshop, is that something that he would not have sponsored or supported by way of expenditure? The school board directors program meetings, is that something that he would have deleted as an expenditure or the junior high network project meetings, or the educational renewal and Southwest pilot team meetings, is that something that he would not have gone.
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This one, I believe, the Apprenticeship Board meeting of $674, he would be prepared to support. Construction working meetings relative to the construction of schools, or the Nova Scotia Community College, industry review training and interviews, $292, is that something that he would not be prepared to support? I found another item that he's prepared to accept (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr. Minister, you have the floor. I'm just quieting the Chamber down for you, Minister.
MR. MACISAAC: I suppose I could go on, Mr. Chairman, and hopefully I've made my point. The expenditures are indeed worthy expenditures. They are needed in order for us to continue to have the support and the input and the advice of our teachers and to have our teachers involved in the development of programs and the implementation of programs, have our teachers involved in the development of examinations and materials and curriculum. To do that we do have to be prepared to spend money to accommodate those teachers wherever it happens to be in the province. Mr. Chairman, I make no apology for that. We do spend the money wisely and we take every step possible in order to ensure that we get best value for money in all of those circumstances.
MR. CHAIRMAN: At this time I would like to recognize the NDP caucus. They have one hour in turn and the member for Hants East has the floor. Member, I would just remind you that at 9:05 p.m. the time for the estimates will be up this evening.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for an opportunity to ask a few questions. He would know, I think, and perhaps wouldn't, that I used to be a teacher for 15 years prior to coming to the House and have spent the last five years trying to educate members on the opposite side of the House. (Interruptions)
I have a number of concerns and one thing that really worries me, I have to say, are concerns that have been brought to me by a couple of my constituents. It has to do with the inability I think to access tuition agreements or to come up with tuition agreements with the school board. I wrote your predecessor on this issue and I will read a section of that letter: With regard to tuition agreements, only school boards receive formula funding and no other person or organization has legal entitlement to these funds. While school boards may enter into agreements, including tuition agreements for services and benefits, boards firstly follow policies and procedures of both the Department of Education and their own boards to ensure that all efforts are made to meet a student's needs for learning within their board.
What I've been finding I think, Mr. Minister, is there are severe deficiencies, especially in the area of special needs children. To use an example of a child whose parents came to me with concerns, and this is a child I think presently at a Grade 8 level in school but reading at about a Grade 5 level or a Grade 4 level, and we met with staff of the school board and the school in this regard. They were going to put together a personal program for
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this child and one of the questions I asked was, how will you know if this program is not working and nobody could give me an answer.
So I want to tell the minister that I think the boards are falling down in this area as far as trying to meet the special needs of children in schools. I think the problem is probably quite severe. I know personally I have run into three situations in this regard and I'm assuming that it's not a lack of willpower on the part of the board, it may be a lack of funding. If they're the ones who have to enter into a tuition agreement and they have to fund a program that's outside the school on the basis, I believe, that if the board cannot establish a program to meet the needs of the child, then they would agree to have the child go outside the school and they would pay for the program.
Well, since it's their funding, it's pretty hard to make them admit that they can't meet the needs of a child. I think there are many children who are falling through the cracks in this system and, as a matter of fact, I think we're widening the cracks and I'm wondering what the minister's position is in regard to implementing the recommendations for the Special Education Implementation Review Committee and also whether this issue has been raised in his constituency or in his department and what their position is around tuition agreements. I think the schools are incapable of meeting the needs of all the students and I think that basically what we're saying, we're throwing our hands up and saying, well, there are just some, that we're going to just keep pushing them forward and they will become somebody else's problem, another school's problem, or whatever, and I think this is blatantly unfair to these children. So I would like to know what is the minister's response to that?
[8:45 p.m.]
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for the question and he raises an issue which is of considerable significance for some of our students. I am sure the honourable member's experience was similar to my own in the classroom when we had with us students who we felt were just not living up to their potential. In my time in the classroom that very often was as good as we could express it, that they were not living up to their potential and we were very frustrated, as were the parents, as was the child, in terms of trying to come to an understanding of why they were not able to live up to their potential.
We have made considerable progress with respect to being able to sort of drill down and find out some of the answers to the reasons why. The answers that we're getting, of course, are ahead of our capacity to be able to respond to many of these situations. That is not to say that we are not now working at the response and we're doing two things. We're doing much more by way of diagnostic activities in order to assist us in coming to a better understanding of the concerns and the problems faced by children and we are also committing considerable resources in order to be able to address those concerns and we still have considerable progress to make in that regard. We will continue with respect to making that progress.
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The specific question to which the honourable member refers is a matter that we are working with and we currently have a committee in place which is due to bring forward some recommendations to myself relative to this specific question and they are working on behalf of the department and the superintendents and the boards. So we are addressing it. I would love to be in a position to tell the honourable member that, you know, we have the answer today. We continue to search for an answer with respect to that particular question as well as others. Currently the legislation is such that the school boards have the authority to take the money which is provided by the province for the students and they have the authority with respect to making decisions as to how that money is spent. It's my understanding there's only one board in the province that currently enters into tuition agreements and that is the current situation as I understand it, but we continue to look at this matter with a view to making progress with respect to addressing it.
MR. MACDONELL: Mr. Minister, I'm not sure if you came within a country mile of answering my question, I think you were around it. I don't see this as a situation where students are not living up to their potential. I think the potential is far greater. I think they're living up to all they can do. I think they're doing all that they possibly can do under the circumstances that they find themselves in and they have developed strategies on their own over years of lack of resources to address their needs to try to appear to be accommodated in the classroom.
There is so much information that we know about how to meet their needs and this is no longer rocket science and we are not falling down on the diagnostic area. The minister is right, that as far as our ability to determine what the problems are with children, I think we're pretty much there. Certainly we're further along on the diagnostic side than we are on the remedial side. As far as implementation of programs and resources to address what we diagnose, we're not even in the ballpark. I see a number of issues - we have this process, I think it's fairly openly acknowledged of continuous passing, that children are not kept back, that's one thing, and probably difficult to do with large class sizes, et cetera. They're not given the time to really learn what they need at a particular level before they're passed on. Then we don't have the remedial services to try to address the areas that they're lacking in.
I'd like the minister to tell me if he can tell me about the committee that he said he had in place that's looking at this. I'm assuming it's not the Implementation Review Special Education Committee. I think that report came forward some time ago. I think it has recommendations, I think it's already been priced at our dollar value - somewhere in the $20 million range. I'm curious about the committee that the minister just mentioned in his response to tell me what the makeup of the committee is and when he expects a response from this committee.
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for the question. The committee is composed of two superintendents and the executive director of public schools. It's a group of three that are currently doing the work. I want to make clear that
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when I use the expression, living up to potential, I was speaking about our expectations of their potential and not the students' expectation of their potential. I agree 100 per cent with the comments made by the honourable member.
MR. MACDONELL: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister could tell me, what is the role of the executive director of public schools? What does that person do?
MR. MACISAAC: The executive director deals with all facets of our responsibilities relative to the P to 12 program within the province. For instance, it's his responsibility to ensure that the curriculum as prescribed by the province is being carried out within the public schools. He has responsibilities with respect to negotiations in all facets related to the operation of our public schools. The regional education officers would report to him and they, of course, work with the school boards with respect to the implementation of our programs. It's really quite a wide-ranging element of responsibility. I'm trying to provide an answer that perhaps describes the scope of the operation without providing a long detailed list. I'd be happy to do that if it's required.
MR. MACDONELL: No, I don't think that's required. What I'm trying to get at is some idea for me about this committee. You mentioned two superintendents and the executive director of public schools. Could you explain to me what the mandate of the committee is, what their time frame is, when do you expect to hear from them and what aspects of this problem they're actually looking at?
MR. MACISAAC: The problem that's being considered is the question that the honourable member raises: the question of tuition agreements, how they might be viewed, is there a different way of viewing them, is there some way of having them implemented. The time frame is June when we would expect to hear from them with respect to the work that they're doing. After that, Mr. Chairman, dependent upon what is said by the committee, we would want to carefully weigh their recommendations and consider what action would be taken after that. We can't predict just what it is that they're going to say when they do come forward; then we will be moving to the next step with respect to this question.
MR. MACDONELL: So, we'll hear from them before the next election?
MR. MACISAAC: I would anticipate that we would, but there are two variables in that. One is the variable as to when they, in fact, finish their work and the other is the variable as to the decision-making process of the honourable member who normally occupies the seat to my left.
MR. MACDONELL: Good dodge. I want to go to an area that I'm not sure gets enough attention. I have real concerns around when we went to the community college system and the implementation of vocational programs prior to that, when we went from vocational schools to community colleges. My experience in school would have been one
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where students in Grade 8, Grade 9, would have gone to vocational school, usually in Truro from my area, and finished the academic side of their schooling at vocational, but also took a trade at the same time. I think that when the switch-over - which I think was about January, but I forget which year, 1997, 1998, whatever - at that time a number of our students who were not Grade 12 students wound up coming back from the vocational system back into the secondary school system. Then within three months or so, they were gone. These individuals were not going to finish high school on the regular path that most students would. To do that in a complementary way with a vocational training program was actually a way for them to finish their schooling and to get a trade.
Presently, there seems to be a big uptake actually in vocational schools. We still don't have enough seats, but there's a real lack of skilled workers in the workforce. A friend of mine who went through that program that I just mentioned - he took carpentry and has become an extremely successful businessman in my area - told me that on most jobs that he deals with now he can't find skilled workers under 40 years of age. So, I see this as a real problem. We're going to run into a real skill shortage and I don't see that anybody is moving aggressively to address it. I think there is a potential for a lot of people who would go the vocational route, but having to be accepted with a Grade 12 has just closed the doors on them. So I wonder could the minister address this and tell me what his thoughts in this regard are, if he's experienced this as well?
[9:00 p.m.]
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for his question and the subject matter that he raises. Obviously, this is not the first time that I've heard that sentiment expressed since I became Minister of Education or, indeed, in times prior to becoming Minister of Education. The question is always whether the pendulum has swung too far or not. I believe that it's probably an appropriate time for us, within the department, to pose that question.
However, one of the things that we need to be very careful with with respect to programs that we offer to our students, is that we don't, at too early a stage, present them with options that preclude future decisions. That, I believe, requires a delicate balance in terms of providing the exposure to the kinds of programs the honourable member is referring to and of being able to ensure that students carry on with the basics of their education far enough that they are able to have open to them alternatives beyond the specific vocational training that they might want to pursue. In the world in which we now live, skills are important but the changing nature of those skills is such that we have to have the academic background to be able to progress from one area to another. Indeed, our whole skills agenda is intended to address the question of skills.
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One of the components of the apprenticeship legislation, which is currently before the House, is to provide candidates with the opportunity to upgrade their academic skills so that they can proceed with apprenticeship training. We need to be very careful that in anything that we bring forward that we don't have students making decisions with respect to their future that would have them be precluded from future endeavours because they didn't proceed far enough with their academic opportunities.
As I said at the outset, I have heard from enough people that I believe it's perhaps appropriate for us to sit down and look just at where we are here, but I do have some very serious concerns that we not embark upon programs that would limit the capacity of students to develop the level of academic skills that they need to be able to survive in our world.
MR. MACDONELL: I want to say I appreciate the minister's answers. I would like the minister to go down the road - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. All I'm saying is there is a certain section of the student body that, for probably a variety of reasons, is not going to go down the academic road. If it's possible to do that and leave some doors open or have them come back and open a door, I think would be a great way to do it. If the minister can somehow manage some flexibility in the system for that. The minister talked about options, but what I'm seeing is very few options for these students. I see doors closing behind them because of their inability to even get to the trade level. If the minister can come up with something that works, I would be fairly receptive to seeing what that could be, because I think everybody is different, we try to compartmentalize everybody. I will continue this tomorrow.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Time has expired for this evening's estimates.
The honourable Government House Leader.
HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, I move the committee do now rise, report considerable progress and beg leave to sit again on a future day.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is carried.
[9:05 p.m. The committee rose.]
