HANSARD
Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
VETERANS AFFAIRS COMMITTEE
Mr. Stephen McNeil (Chairman)
Mr. Keith Bain
Mr. Patrick Dunn
Mr. Chuck Porter
Mr. Gordon Gosse
Mr. David Wilson (Sackville-Cobequid)
Mr. Percy Paris
Mr. Harold Theriault
Mr. Wayne Gaudet
[Mr. David Wilson (Sackville-Cobequid) was replaced by Mr. Trevor Zinck.]
[Mr. Harold Theriault was replaced by Mr. Leo Glavine.]
Mrs. Darlene Henry
Legislative Committee Clerk
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HALIFAX, THURSDAY, JANUARY 18, 2007
STANDING COMMITTEE ON VETERANS AFFAIRS
9:00 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Stephen McNeil
MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll call the meeting to order. I want to thank the Nova Scotia/Nunavut Command for being patient last week and agreeing to postpone their meeting from last Thursday until this Thursday. With the House sitting, many of my colleagues called and wanted to spend as much time as they could over at the House, they didn't want to be in any committees. I agreed with their request, and they all appreciate your delaying it. I will ask the committee to introduce themselves as we go around.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll turn the floor over to you gentlemen to make your presentation.
MR. JACK HATCHER: I'll turn my phone off first. (Laughter)
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, we certainly appreciate the opportunity to be here this morning. We bring regrets from our president, who is storm-stayed in Cheticamp, or that's what he tells us. (Interruption) I didn't know it snowed up that way.
[Page 2]
Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a presentation to the standing committee.
During the 48th Nova Scotia/Nunavut Command Convention held in Sydney Mines in May 2005, the Remembrance Day Act was raised at a post-convention full council meeting with the then- Year of the Veteran Minister in attendance, Hon. Cecil Clarke. This issue was again to be discussed with this committee, and points were again to be raised regarding the non-enforcement of the conditions of the Remembrance Day Act. The Honourable Mr. Clarke was hopeful that the Act could be distributed to businesses, or parts of the Act could be publicized to the media in order to enlighten the general public and businesses on the conditions set out in the Act, and the subsequent penalties. This has not been forthcoming.
Because of the debates and concerns with the membership of Nova Scotia/Nunavut Command, it was passed at a full council meeting that a representative make a further presentation to this committee regarding the Act. Because of the likelihood of November 11th being turned into a holiday and not a national Day of Remembrance, we are therefore requesting this committee to apply pressure to the provincial government to enforce the Remembrance Day Act by the use of appropriate government and/or local police or RCMP, and publish the Remembrance Day Act highlighting the sections including Section 4(j), Section 5(a) and(b), Section 7, Section 9 (1) and (2).
This failure to respond to the request of the Nova Scotia Nunavut Command membership will have been at issue for three and a half years. With respect, we emphatically advise you to please support the membership's request and, further, to apply all pressure available to you to see that this issue is laid to rest. We believe that our veterans need to know that future generations will live in our democratic society observing the Statute which honours the sacrifices made by these very veterans.
In closing, Mr. Chairman, I thank you and the members of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs for allowing us to be present today to represent our veterans. Respectfully submitted.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. I would open the floor up to committee members for any questions they may have, and as they are thinking of a question, I'll have one for you. Have you had many complaints around the Act not being observed?
MR. HATCHER: Yes, we have, quite a few actually.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Have there been a broad spectrum of offences or is it a particular segment of the business community that is not observing it?
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MR. HATCHER: I would ask Roger to maybe answer that because he has been following along . . .
MR. ROGER PURNELL: It is a broad spectrum, Mr. Chairman. A lot of people are not knowledgeable about the Act itself and not under the penalties of the Act for the liquor premises not to open before 12:00 noon, for sporting events or other events not to be available until after 12:00 noon. The veterans feel it is an insult that we have a Remembrance Day and yet we allow these functions to continue. No one intervenes in it. There are big businesses that operate, do not pay their employees and ignore it. They take it as another day and it isn't - it's a day that is extremely important to everybody.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
Mr. Glavine.
MR. LEO GLAVINE: I am just wondering, first of all, whether there were some definite, I guess, notations made this year compared to last year. Of course, now with the new regulations around Sunday shopping and the loss of statutory holidays and so forth - really Remembrance Day is the only declared day in the Province of Nova Scotia when we don't have shopping. Was there anything discernable last year versus the year before? Obviously from the remarks you have made, we have a lot of education to do, that is for certain. So I am just wondering, even just kind of comparing November 11th, 2006, versus November 11th, 2007, any observations you'd like to share with the committee around that?
MR. PURNELL: Yes, there have been some changes. One of the things that we did notice - and we hadn't really noticed in the past - was the fact that on the Monday, which was a normal working day, over 200,000 people had a paid holiday, including yourselves. It is not a general, paid holiday to the veterans, and that was forthcoming by a lot of veterans to me. I checked out the Web site - I checked out the statistics of how many people in the banks, the schools, the government, all took a paid holiday, and yet it is not classified as a general, paid holiday - it is classified as a statutory holiday.
So there are quite a few of the older generation who approached me and did say that they weren't happy with that, why should people close - why isn't the government operating; why aren't the schools operating, and I couldn't give them an answer. As to the numbers, I'm very proud to say that in my zone there was a tremendous turnout of the general public and veterans and organizations.
MR. GLAVINE: So, does this really say that some things about this Act, while coming with the right motivations and the right reason to want to say we want to do something special on November 11th, really hasn't achieved that. Would you go that far
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to say that perhaps the intent here is not bringing about the realization of what November 11th should really mean for the Canadian society?
MR. PURNELL: I wouldn't go that far. Everybody who is available attempts to make it more available. We're asking the Government of Nova Scotia to enforce the Act, which has special points in it up until midday. That enforcement is going to bring forward to those people that they cannot break this Act, that there are penalties, and that they should remember this. A hundred years from now this Act, God willing, will still be in effect, and if we don't put some pressure right now on our businesses and on our other events that go on in this province, it's going to be put under the carpet and forgotten about. We have to ask you to intervene.
[9:15 a.m.]
MR. GLAVINE: Should I keep going or not?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure.
MR. GLAVINE: I guess we have lots of time.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Go ahead. I'll cut you off when I think you've had enough. (Laughter)
MR. GLAVINE: I can be assured of that, too.
It was the first time, this year, we had a new store come in, which is a kind of a home hardware store in the mall in Greenwood. We had a call from the workers that they were going to have to work through Remembrance Day. They would have no opportunity to attend the service, even, because they had to work. So we got in touch with the local owner, and of course we discovered their head office was in Alberta, and of course they had a whole different view in terms of what went on in Alberta and what went on especially in Nova Scotia, in a military community.
I got on the phone with one of the head office people and said, do you want to have an enormous loss of business in this community? You will stand out like a sore thumb in the Greenwood Area. Anyway, they relented and closed, plus it was also great to see the mall owner show leadership here and also called head office and said, I will renegotiate your contract if you, in fact, open your store in the mall. They're kind of adjacent, part of the mall but not really enclosed by it. So it really highlighted for me, certainly in my community, the feeling about what should and shouldn't happen. Certainly I know there are cases where that observance is not as strong as what it needs to be.
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MR. PURNELL: Mr. Chairman, may I answer?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure.
MR. PURNELL: I work for Home Hardware. Home Hardware Stores Limited Head Office is actually in St. Jacobs, Ontario, and they do not push people into abiding by any statutory rules and regulations, it's per province. If the owner was at guilt there, then they may have been owned by somebody in Alberta and, therefore, that could be a problem. But you're right 100 per cent - they ignore it, and not the small businesses either. We're talking some of our larger manufacturers of this province are totally ignoring the fact that they are not supposed to be open that day. They will not abide by the fact that you're supposed to stop for three minutes. The workers are complaining that they want to observe their three minutes, their two minutes of silence. They must turn off their machines and stand, and they have been told no. In some cases, they cannot stop production, but they can reduce the workforce to go to an area where they can observe. I think, you know, this will be lost if we don't do something about it.
MR. GLAVINE: So what you're saying is that through provincial legislation, we have a Remembrance Day Act and we have enshrined in that legislation the opportunity to make a significant stand here?
MR. PURNELL: Yes.
MR. GLAVINE: But you're saying right now that there is a voidance. There isn't, I guess, a degree of enforcement and so forth, and perhaps we need to see some examples of that being carried forth if this is really going to be meaningful. In other words, what you're really saying is, why have an Act if it's not going to be enforced?
MR. PURNELL: Absolutely. If it's not going to be enforced, then why not just make it another holiday - which we don't want. With the Sunday shopping and Remembrance Day being identified as the specific day that we will not open, that is great for us, because in 2007 it's going to be a Sunday and no shops will be allowed to open, which is wonderful.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Blanchard, you wanted to make a point.
MR. DAVID BLANCHARD: Yes, I might add to the part that when the Sunday shopping part came up here, I had - well, not an awful lot, but some comments that were made were, oh, how come they can open every day except Remembrance Day? You would be surprised the number of people who never, ever heard of the Remembrance Day Act in the Province of Nova Scotia. They never heard of it. Oh, what's that? I always thought that was just a general holiday but, you know, they were comparing, well, Remembrance Day, but Good Friday they can open, you know.
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As I explained to them, I said, well, there is an Act out specifically for Remembrance Day and it states quite clearly who can open or how big a store can open, a store with under three people or less can open, but a big-box store can't open, or the larger stores. You would just be surprised the number of people who never, ever heard of the Remembrance Day Act. As we said, we feel that some way or other the word has to get out through the media, or some other way, that there is an Act - I don't know how many other provinces have it, I think we're the only one, but I won't say for sure on that.
MR. PURNELL: There are provinces that have statutory general paid holidays, which means they class it as a holiday. But this is the only province that has an Act that makes it sacrosanct, and unfortunately we're not enforcing it. It's embarrassing to those people who sacrificed their lives for us to sit around this table. So we're asking you to enforce the Act that you gentlemen put in place, or your forefathers did.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Paris.
MR. PERCY PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I was going to take the question on the lines of 2006 Remembrance Day. I must confess when it comes to Remembrance Day, even as an MLA, I guess because I'm so busy on that day visiting all the services, or trying to visit all the services going on in the riding in the past year, but it was my observation that on 2006 Remembrance Day that all the cenotaphs I was at, and all the Legions that I visited, attendance took a real boost in 2006, and so I must say that it has never been my experience to be out shopping on those days because I'm always at a service. So I never realized that it was a problem and I thank you for bringing this, for me personally, to light.
I would also say that, as Mr. Blanchard and Mr. Purnell are well aware, I certainly have a fond attachment for Legions for more than just one obvious reason. One of respect for those veterans who have paid the ultimate price and for those veterans who have even put their life in harm's way, but obviously, because of my dad, I've been a member of the Legion, I think, ever since I was allowed to be a member of the Windsor Branch Legion.
I certainly agree with our guests. I think the Remembrance Day Act is one that should be upheld and for the obvious reasons. I think that we, as a committee, should do anything we can to ensure that the Remembrance Day Act is going to be enforced and, I'm going to use the word, "revitalized" in the eyes of the general public. How we do that might be the question. I would strongly suggest and urge that - maybe I'll put that in a motion that we pen a nice message, maybe to the Attorney General of the Province of Nova Scotia, or whoever it is that we, as a committee, decide to send it to.
So I guess there wasn't a question in there, but more of a general comment.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe, Mr. Paris, at the end of the meeting we'll deal with that motion.
MR. PARIS: Absolutely.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't know if you gentlemen want to make a comment.
MR. PURNELL: There was a vast increase in my zone for attendance. At the Bridgewater Branch we had in excess of 3,000 people. We built a new park a year ago; we made a joke that we may have to expand. The town has offered us bleachers because we have so many young people attending. Every hockey team in that area - part of their coaching contract, if you like, if you were to appear on the team you must attend Remembrance Day.
That's how our students are being taught. If we are to continue this, to put it out there, then we need the businesses, we need those people who are in charge of big events to realize they cannot run social, sporting or any form of activity, or open their bars before 12:00 noon, and that they cannot stop employees from taking the time to give their three minutes of silence. That is the main part, we must make it a law - it is a law - and act on it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Enforce it.
MR. PURNELL: Yes, enforce it.
MR. GORDON GOSSE: Thank you for being here today. You bring up a very important issue and this committee is probably the only committee in Canada that sits as a provincial committee - the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs. They've done good work in the past and I don't see this being a problem here today, on behalf of the committee.
But Remembrance Day in Cape Breton, the numbers have gone up in a sense. When I was a young fellow, when the mines and the steel plants were going, the whistles would blow, and if you had a breakaway in the game of road hockey, you stopped when I was a kid. You stopped your car, you stopped everything, so I do see the sense of losing that over time. I know in Cape Breton, Remembrance Day attendance has been way up in Cape Breton. The dwindling numbers with the veterans, with the Year of the Veteran being 2005, the Year of the War Bride, 2006, the 80th Anniversary of the Legions in Canada - those types of things have all been to the forefront.
I think that if we do have an Act and legislation in the Province of Nova Scotia, it should be enforced. What we have to do, as a committee today, we agree on a motion to the Minister of Justice and to the Premier of Nova Scotia that we enforce this Act -
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that's the law in the Province of Nova Scotia - that we enforce this Act, that Remembrance Day is a National Day of Remembrance, is what it is. It's not a statutory holiday, it's a National Day of Remembrance, where we remember those who have fallen, who gave the ultimate sacrifice, ordinary people who did an extraordinary job. I don't have a problem as a committee member making a motion that we ask the Minister of Justice and the Premier to look into enforcing this Act.
In your presentation I notice this has not been forthcoming. Has this been brought up to the former Minister of the Year of the Veteran? Was this brought to his attention when you were in Sydney Mines at the - I hate to say that in a sense, because I know my colleague in the Legislature, his grandfather was a Cape Breton Highlander and I know how he feels about Remembrance Day himself personally. I'm just wondering, have you ever had any correspondence back from him on this?
MR. PURNELL: I'm a very verbal and aggressive person when it comes to this particular motion for Remembrance Day. Yes, I did address this in no uncertain terms with the honourable gentleman, and he did promise to come back to us. With all due respect to that honourable gentleman, we have never received any correspondence or anything. I'm being polite when I say that.
MR. GOSSE: Thank you, I understand that. Maybe we'll cc. it off to the Speaker of the Legislature also. Thank you very much.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll deal with the motions at the end.
MR. KEITH BAIN: Thank you for being here this morning. Like Mr. Glavine has said, I have the same example in Cape Breton. There was a business operation, the head office was in Ontario. They got a couple of calls from the employees, why do we have to work today? It's a major company that was doing this, and they just couldn't understand. I know exactly how everybody feels about it, because the two people who called me, actually - and it was only two - their fathers were veterans, and they were being forced to work that day, and if they didn't, they would suffer the consequences. So I know exactly where you're going here.
[9:30 a.m.]
I think, as Mr. Gosse has said, awareness since the Year of the Veteran has certainly increased. If you look at every Remembrance Day service, the crowds are much larger. The involvement of the school system is much greater now. Listening to the whole thing about the Remembrance Day Act that you say isn't enforced, I can't disagree that it does need to be enforced, but you also said we have to educate people on what the Remembrance Day Act is about. It's really twofold. It's education and it's enforcement.
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I guess that's it, basically. I guess probably part of our mandate would be to at least encourage education of the Remembrance Day Act. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. PURNELL: One of the things is that when a person who has his own business, when you go to register your business, why isn't the Act there? Why can't they hand out the Act at the same time as they give you your registration? Then the business knows what it's allowed to do and what it's not allowed to do. It is an important Act.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Zinck.
MR. TREVOR ZINCK: Thank you for attending today and bringing this to our attention. I think that's a good point that you make in regard to registering your business at Joint Stocks. It's a step that could easily help a business owner become more aware of the Act and the importance of it. My background for the last 12 years, the previous 12 years, has been in the retail industry. The last several years, I had worked - managed for one of the largest retail drug chains in Canada. Never really wanting to work on Remembrance Day, however, obviously having to because of business. That retail drug chain took the opportunity to have the moment of silence, the cash registers shut down, and we also recited a verse. So that particular company observed that.
My question would be with large businesses coming from outside of Canada. Are they aware of the Act? Is there a mechanism in place when they come in and open up business, that they're made aware of this particular Act? Call centres. In Dartmouth North, we have a very large call centre. Cape Breton has now become known as the call centre capital of Nova Scotia. Truro has a large call centre as well. Are these companies, when they come into Nova Scotia, made aware of this Act? I'd have to question that. Along with questioning that, are we actually going the route of making them aware and enforcing the Act?
I'd definitely support any motion that we're going to put forward, because there are many Nova Scotians who are affected by the results of deaths of veterans and family members. All too often large companies don't pay attention enough and give that right to the employees. Thank you.
MR. PURNELL: I'm also from a mining community in the valley of Wales and our mines used to blow the hooter at two minutes to eleven, and then at the end. We have a wonderful fire department and police force who not only close the streets off to all traffic - and it is a main artery in Bridgewater - you are not allowed to go by unless it is an emergency vehicle, you are not allowed to go by the cenotaph in any form of vehicle unless it is an emergency situation.
The chief of the fire department presses a button on his walkie-talkie and all the fire department trucks pull the horn. That stops our traffic, that lets our call centre know,
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and anybody else who wishes to stop work can do so. That is the type of thing that we must get used to and put into place - let's go back and get these people understanding what it is about.
MR. GLAVINE: As an educator for 20-something years, ideally it would be nice to think that we didn't have to go down that road of a lot of enforcement and vigilance on that side. Have we possibly done ourselves perhaps a disservice by declaring it as the only day now in the Province of Nova Scotia when we have a holiday? I can see all kinds of organizations saying, we'll start our hockey tournament - especially if it is around a weekend and so on - we'll start it at 8:00 a.m. and let it run through, we'll start our basketball tournament, and let it run through.
I know, in schools, they can't have an activity in school when there is a holiday. Perhaps we've actually undermined our intentions here of making this a more determined occasion to recognize and to bring to prominence this day which, in my view, personally, should really capture the minds and hearts of Nova Scotians to get out and honour those who were significant to creating this society we have today. So I'm wanting a little bit of your view on this, as Legion people who have to give some direction as to what may be the best way for us to handle this for the next generation, because we know very well that we're at that tipping point here now, in terms of the presence of veterans. There were three left from the First World War, and we're down, I think, to 200 and something now from the Second World War, and of course the majority are over 80 years of age. So we do have to take steps to ensure that this continues to be a big part of our observance in the province.
MR. PURNELL: In 2003, this was raised at a convention in Bridgewater, that we make Remembrance Day a statutory, general paid holiday. That would be the same as Victoria Day, Canada Day, or any other statutory, general paid holiday. It was approved, and that's what we went for at that time.
We had a meeting with the Labour Relations Board and they informed us of how difficult that would be to make sure that it is sacrosanct, because with the retail Act coming into play, it means that businesses could open up on that day because they could change the day, as they have done for Canada Day. Some businesses have said, I don't like Canada Day being on a Saturday or in the middle of the week so I want it to be done on a Sunday so that it can open. That is the retail Act. So it hit us sideways, and that is why we've changed our tact to make it a very important day. The only way we can do that is to enforce the Act and ask the Province of Nova Scotia to ensure that the Act is out there to the general public, it is out there to the businesses, and that our enforcers are putting the penalties forward to make it a general paid holiday would I think, and I didn't think this in 2003, make it just the same holiday.
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What you have done, yes, is you have made it very important and now the legionnaires do not wish to change that because the government has said, you cannot open on November 11th. You have actually singled it out to be a very important day. For the schools and the other organizations that are creating their events, that's where we're asking you to intervene and enforce the Act. So, in a sense, we've had to backtrack off a general paid holiday to what you have made it - a very important day - and we want to try to enforce that important day.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any further questions? Mr. Paris.
MR. PERCY PARIS: I've just got a quick one. I've gone over, I guess it's Section 4 where it says that: "Section 3 does not apply to". It has the list of all those that it doesn't apply to. This is an old Act and I would suspect that at some point in time over and over again, maybe even members of this committee have gone over who is included here. Is there anyone, would you make any changes, if you had to make any amendments to those it does not apply to, who would it include?
MR. BLANCHARD: I think that's a pretty rough question to put to us.
MR. PURNELL: Yes.
MR. BLANCHARD: This is something that on behold with our Command, that we would have to sit down and discuss it.
MR. PARIS: But you haven't had any discussion around this?
MR. BLANCHARD: Not over how the Act has changed.
MR. PURNELL: I know of personally - because I'm involved in this that I'm sort of like taking this under my belt as an individual to take to Command - that there are companies that are changing their business designation to comply with the Act so that they can open. So if you said, okay, we're going to change this, cut these people out. The businesses can go back to Joint Stocks and say, oh, I want to change it to such and such. If there is nobody there who is enforcing what do you do - do you manufacture or do you do this, or do you do that - it isn't going to happen. It's an open end to the businesses to change their designation of how they operate. For us to sit back and look through this and say, well, yes, you shouldn't have this in - I think we need to really review that. If a business wants to open, they'll change the designation so it fits this - believe you me - because I know a big one that has changed and I'm not mentioning it.
MR. GLAVINE: We have an indication.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Blanchard.
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MR. BLANCHARD: I might say, you know, on this discussion we had here we've been talking about when this has been brought up. In all fairness, honourable Mr. Clarke - when he was the Minister of Veterans Affairs, or for The Year of Veteran - two years ago in North Sydney, we did have quite a lively discussion with him at our full council meeting after the convention. We went out of there with messages that, you know, he would like to see us work on and parts that the government could work on. Through a couple of other miscommunications and what not, this is why it's still on the docket as it is today and hasn't been- this could have been gone over at that time.
MR. PURNELL: We could have cleaned it up right then.
MR. BLANCHARD: Yes, we weren't prepared to do it but he was, you know, he gave us the chance and the opportunity and, you know, that was all there. I just wanted to make it kind of clear that, you know, nobody has been holding anything back on this and maybe we've been a little bit holding back ourselves to a certain - you know, not a lot. Now don't get me wrong, but we're just human, the same as everybody else, we like to see where we're stepping. We're going to do it, let's do it right, and not do it and then have to make the changes. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You're welcome. Around here, you have to be careful where you step - there's lots of piles of stuff.
MR. BLANCHARD : Yes, been there, done that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: A question around Section 4(j). If I'm to read that correctly anyone who is self-employed, a small business, a one- or two- person operation - this does not fall under this Act. They're entitled to operate as they so wish?
MR. PURNELL: Yes, if you have a small convenience store, then they can operate, as long as there's only, as it says, the minimum number of employees and people there.
But, to be fair, it's not the small businesses that are the problem here. It is our largest industries in this province who are totally ignoring the Act, blatantly ignoring the Act.
[9:45 a.m.]
The small business people want to be at the cenotaphs. They want to be there because they grew up in the community - 90 per cent of these people who have small businesses grew up in the community, have fathers, grandfathers and so on who have been involved in the services or worked with them. It's not them, as you so rightly said - it's the people who come from away - like myself - and who don't know. We should make it readily available to them. Everybody who comes here to open up businesses must apply to open up at the Registry of Joint Stocks, so why isn't this shoved into the
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documentation given them, the biggest thing pointing out what they can and can't do and what they should do.
Why can't we emphasize this in the local media close to November 11th? Why can't we give this out to existing businesses - yes, it will cost money, but it's going to retain that day as a very important day in this province, if not this country. This Nova Scotia Command has led this country in a lot of things - veterans' license plates, the highways, all with your help. This is one that we can kick and push and say, it ain't going to happen, it's going to be right in this province.
We have to do this to keep that memory alive, not for today, but for 100 years from now when a kid can turn around to his parents and ask, why are we celebrating this day? It's that important.
MR. CHAIRMAN: There's a tremendous amount of education that has to happen. Many Nova Scotians believe it is a statutory holiday right now. I can't speak for all members of the committee, but I know for myself, when we're talking about statutory holidays, as it's been floated for one in February - somebody has a bill in front of the House now for a holiday in February - Nova Scotians will come to me, and they've come to me, and in 2003 I was one of them who asked, why we would create another statutory holiday when we haven't done that with Remembrance Day. Nova Scotians today still come to me and ask, why is Remembrance Day not a statutory holiday?
When I tell them the Legions don't want it, that the Legions believe the Remembrance Day Act we have now is what it should be - they do not want it to be another holiday, they want it to be a day of remembrance - they accept that, but they're not educated on it. There is a role for the Legion to play as well . . .
MR. PURNELL: But we do play a role - we have our Call to Remembrance Program, the only one in this country.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm just saying from leading the country, we need to lead Nova Scotians.
MR. PURNELL: Yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Many Nova Scotians need to be educated on this as well. It is a holiday - we can call it what we want, but it's being treated as a holiday and that's the sad reality of it.
I can tell you when you came to our committee - the first time I sat on it, in 2003 - and said, we don't want it to be a holiday, and the reasons why you don't want it to be a holiday - it resonated, it really did. It made sense to me, but we need to say it out loud
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and clear to all Nova Scotians why it's not a holiday. I had always attended cenotaphs, it was just something that my family did.
MR. PURNELL: In 2003 I was in the same boat as yourself. I didn't understand the importance or the definition between a statutory holiday and a statutory general paid holiday, until I sat down with the Labour Standards Book, and how the Retail Act can totally affect and how the next year it did, by them changing Canada Day. I thought, with all due respect to everybody around this table, what an insult. Now to me, Canada Day and Remembrance Day are the two most important days in this country - everything else is provincial or just memorial days - and the veterans felt the same at that time.
We feel that Remembrance Day is a day for total remembrance of everything that's gone on but they didn't want it as a holiday so that people could take a long weekend off and go to the cottage or go skiing or whatever it is they want to do. So that is why the change from a statutory general paid holiday to leave the Act where it is.
You are right, we have to educate. We go around to our branches, and we are educating our members but the biggest thing they say is, when is the government going to get on top of this? When are they going to be involved in this? It doesn't matter how much discussion we've had over the last three and a half years, with all of your honourable members, there is nothing positive coming down, except the Sunday shopping, right?
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think we may try to help you with that today. Mr. Blanchard.
MR. BLANCHARD: I might add just for the last part I got in this, you know we're talking about observance. I don't know how many people in here have heard the song, Pittance of Time by Terry Kelly, that's the story. He was in a shopping centre, checking out in a lineup, and this one man became awful irritated because the clerk wanted to take a moment of silence for remembrance. As he says in his song, he felt like hitting him and that was the reason why - no respect. If sometimes when you do listen to that, if you really listen to it, the whole story is right there what Terry Kelly was trying to say or is saying in his song Pittance of Time, it tells it all. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any further questions? Mr. Glavine? He's an educator, right? He tries to get in.... (Laughter)
MR. GLAVINE: I may as well get this off my mind, it is a little bit of a sensitive question, an area, to go to, but I would just like your reaction to this, especially where I'm a MLA in a military community. I know the life work of the Legion for 60 years has been around remembrance and around letting the next generation know, passing the torch, if you wish, and a call to remembrance program and the Legion leadership in my
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school where I used to teach at West Kings are huge. The impact that the Legion leadership program had in our school community has been enormous.
However, because of that thrust and that work for 60 years, where do you line up - is there some dissonance or difficulty with embracing the modern war and their casualties and that perhaps people may start going to the cenotaph for, in other words, the current war and we lose a little bit of that past? Is that a bit of a worry or is there a perfect blending here, in terms of the work of the Legion, especially around education? I am aware of the Legion and its social work towards veterans' families and especially to widows and so forth, in my area but how are you bringing the two together?
MR. PURNELL: From my point of view, and it is only my point of and not the Legion's, in 2000, we had a two-minute wave of silence, from Newfoundland it waved across the country. That was a program I got involved in, and that's when we saw, from promoting the Remembrance Day and the two-minute wave, that's when we saw an increase in people attending and being more sensitive of the Remembrance Day. That's where I learned that somehow we have to stop traffic, coming up to a major intersection where it was right in the middle of the two minutes of silence, you got a guy with a Jake brake on just hammering into the lights. You couldn't do anything.
So, by getting the police and the fire departments, getting the community involved, everybody knows that you can't go there. If you want to go and sit there, you have to get there early. We have seen a steady increase in people. Yes, our forces who have been actively involved in more recognized activities since 2003 are being more prominent, and, yes, there are people who turn out just to remember, honour their own families and their fallen. But our biggest increase in my area has been from the young people. It's been from the young people.
I wasn't joking when I said we seriously have to look at how we're going to get these young people into our park, because we didn't estimate this. We normally have somewhere around about 800 to 1,000. It went up last year because it was a brand-new park and everybody wanted to be there, but this year the police had to put emergency things into place because they couldn't cope and neither could we. We didn't expect this.
We also have Greenwood involved by getting a fly-pass. Aircraft comes over at 11:00 o'clock, and this year, as a zone commander, I arranged for them to fly from New Germany to Bridgewater, to Lunenburg, to Mahone Bay, to Chester/Chester Basin up to New Ross, in a circle, so every cenotaph had a fly-pass. Now, the Armed Forces want to be there, and the people want to be there. You have to ask, and you have to get them involved.
Yes, there has been increase, but I don't think it's 100 per cent because of our military involvement in conflicts abroad. I think it's education in the community and the
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people wanting to be there themselves. I can only answer on behalf of Bridgewater and the South Shore.
MR. BLANCHARD: I might add there's one more - I agree with Roger 100 per cent - but there's one more important factor here, too, on attendance. This year, I was in attendance down here in Halifax replacing our Command President who couldn't make it. It was the first time I've ever been here, I always go to my own one in Windsor, which is always large, too. But, weather, weather has a big thing to do with it. We have been quite fortunate to get really good weather. People are people, there are going to be the ones who are going to be there come hell or high water - pardon the expression. And there are also going to be ones who are, I don't want to get a cold, or I'm going to get soaking wet, and I don't want little Johnny to be out there either. You really can't blame them.
I think, all in all, though, that the attendance is up, way up. There's a lot more consideration coming into it now. The consideration, as far as it goes for the activities that our Armed Forces are carrying out today- and I think that you'll find that all Second World War veterans and whatnot will agree with you- those men and women are doing the same thing that they did during their career and they deserve as much respect as our predecessors did. Basically, and this is the way that, hopefully, the legion in general will look after this because we're not there for veterans from WWII or Koreans veterans - we're there for veterans, period. Once they have paid their dues, once they have done their duty and everything, they fall under it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hatcher?
MR. HATCHER: Mr. Chairman, if I just may relate an experience that I had. Building up to that, I'd have to say that in past years, veterans had a thing - they didn't want young people involved. This is our domain, the legion is our domain, we don't want these young people - 20, 25, 30 - they didn't want them in the legion. That has changed and it is changing drastically.
[10:00 a.m.]
At my own legion in Sackville this past year, I was talking to a couple of the veterans and they couldn't get over how many children were at the cenotaph. It was overwhelming to them and they thought that was great. That's a big change from back 10 years ago.
The thing I want to relate to you, I attended the legion national track and field competitions each year with the 38 athletes who we take from Nova Scotia. We were in Burnaby, B.C. this past summer and during the closing ceremonies they had brought 10 or 12 veterans from the local veterans hospital out to attend the closing ceremonies. They
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lined everybody up the same as they do at the Olympics, and when it was over, the youth from Nova Scotia, the 38 athletes from Nova Scotia, got up, went over and started shaking hands with all these veterans and thanking them.
While I was standing there, it was getting down near the end, somebody tapped me on the shoulder and I turned around and here's this gentleman, two canes. He said, are you with this group and I said, yes. He said, I have to tell you, this is the first time that anybody has come up and thanked me for what I did. When I looked up at him, these big tears were coming down and he threw his cane up like this - he almost hit me with it - and he said, I can't talk anymore, I have to go. Off he went on his two canes and I thought that was great that he would come up and say that.
So, things are changing, for the good. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: As we have said, as elected people around many times in our own ridings, the youth of Nova Scotia are second to none.
MR. HATCHER: Exactly.
MR. CHAIRMAN: They prove it each and every time they're given the opportunity. Mr. Blanchard, this committee is responsible for the weather on Remembrance Day, that's why it's been so (interruptions), but we've relinquished the January weather to the federal government and they're responsible for what's happening outdoors today.
MR. BLANCHARD: We'll run a check next November 11th and maybe get . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Let's hope there's a vote, no let's hope there's no vote - well maybe. Are there any further questions?
MR. GOSSE: You may be asking the new leader that question.
MR. CHAIRMAN: With no further questions, I'd like to go back to . . . oh sorry.
MR. PATRICK DUNN: I just have one final comment. Like my colleague across, I have been involved in education the past 30 years and have been very pleased with the education in the school system with regard to what we are talking about here today. There's been quite a substantial improvement from 30 years ago to what they're involved with today, leading not only in the area of Remembrance Day, but the months before it.
I think it looks like where we are today is not the youth and the education system itself, but the retailers themselves. I think if there's a key phrase, it would be awareness
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through education is what's necessary and must occur to bring them on board, to realize how important this day is to everyone.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Dunn. I'll go to Mr. Gosse for a final comment.
MR. GOSSE: Just, the final comment there by Jack about the legions, I do know the struggles of the legion, I'm a member of Branch No. 128 and I know that bringing the young people in as associate members and convincing them that your grandfather, your father was a veteran; take part in the legion. A lot of legions are struggling to survive in Cape Breton, probably in Nova Scotia. Getting young people involved is important. The reason I say this is because my son, Daniel, was picked this year to read Flanders Field at his school - I couldn't be there because the Legislature was sitting - and to give you an example of modern technology, he finished his speech that morning at school and I was looking at it at the Legislature at dinnertime. They had videoed it up to the computer in the backroom, so I felt really proud of that. His grandfather was a war veteran, on both sides, you know - well, there are a lot of federates in Cape Breton. I do know the struggles of the legion and their members and I do know what the service officer goes through today and all those struggles.
So it is important to get our young people involved and I do find with the youth program in the legion and the legion getting more vocal and advertising- they have a breakfast now at our legion on Sunday morning. They ask the community out to have breakfast with a legion member and a veteran and those things are important. So I think as the committee is meeting today, my colleague, the member for Waverley-Fall River-Beaver Bank, is going to put a motion together on behalf of the Nova Scotia/Nunavut Command and the committee, hopefully, will make the powers to be aware of the situation as soon as possible, and I thank you for being here today.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Gosse. With no further questions, I want to call upon Mr. Paris to go back to the motion that you put on the floor earlier.
MR. PARIS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank Mr. Bain for raising the issue around awareness because I've always operated from the philosophy that no matter what it is you're doing - the awareness, the understanding and the action. So the motion that I've been thinking of over the last 30 seconds or so is that I want to move that we, as a committee, submit a letter to our Premier, the Department of Justice and any others we deem appropriate, requesting enforcement of the Remembrance Day Act.
This is the part - and I'll add to that, Mr. Chairman, I don't know if we want to include, but I think it might be appropriate for us to also request in the letter that an awareness campaign be initiated in partnership with the Royal Canadian Legion, Nova
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Scotia/Nunavut Command, and I think we might want to debate that a little bit because the latter part I'm raising more as a question than as part of the original motion.
MR. CHAIRMAN: So do you want that as part of your motion or do you want to separate that?
MR. PARIS: I want to separate that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, so for the original motion, if you would just read the original part of your motion and then I'll come back to you.
MR. PARIS: I move that we, as a committee, submit a letter to our Premier, the Department of Justice and any others we deem appropriate, requesting enforcement of the Remembrance Day Act.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Can I have a seconder for that?
MR. GLAVINE: I'll second that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion?
AN HON. MEMBER: Question.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
[The motion is carried.]
Mr. Paris, you also had another part to that motion.
MR. PARIS: Yes, and in that letter-and I throw this out for discussion while we've got these good, learned members of the legion here as well. It was raised earlier- around the education portion of the Act itself- so I'm just wondering if we should also put in the letter as well, or send a separate letter, requesting an awareness campaign be initiated in partnership with the Royal Canadian Legion, Nova Scotia/Nunavut Command.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion around that?
MR. TREVOR ZINCK: Just for clarification, is that going to - or I think what should happen is we should take some advice perhaps from one of the members who suggested an advertising campaign. Is there a way we can put something in that motion?
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What I'm thinking of is, if we don't already alert businesses through the Joint Stocks process when they register a business, I think an awareness campaign initiated on behalf of the government to advertise the actual Act, you know, in relation to the Royal Canadian Legion in and around not just the week leading up, but perhaps at some point in October, because I think what would benefit from this is employees would become aware of this as well. It would allow them to get educated to the actual Act. As we know today, there are not a lot of people who realize that the Act exists and the importance of the Act. So if we could do that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: One of the issues is the committee, we don't have the power to spend money.
MR. ZINCK: We can suggest though...
MR. CHAIRMAN: . . . make suggestions. In the province we also have a minister of military relations who needs to be brought into this. I mean I see this in terms of education as much, quite frankly, falls under the responsibility of the Minister of Economic Development, the minister who is responsible for dealing directly with the business communities here, the Chamber of Commerce in Halifax, the Chambers of Commerce around Nova Scotia, this is - these are the leaders in business, these are the people who will need to be on board to enforce the Act, quite frankly.
We can go after them but if it is an education component, they are the people who are the leaders in their field and are the people who are ignoring the Act right now. Mr. Glavine.
MR. GLAVINE: Mr. Chairman, I think this motion is good, it is strong, I think it is a directive certainly from the Legion. I know certainly our Premier and our Minister of Justice, who is also Minister responsible for Military Relations, I think it would be fair to them to take a look at our motion today and, in fact, they may, as a group of MLAs, all want to engage perhaps in a moment in the House to look at what could go forward from here. So I would like to give them the opportunity, without sort of saying that here is exactly maybe what we should do. I'd like to see them react to this as well, first, because I know they would be wanting to play a prominent role in carrying out the wishes of the Legion.
MR. BLANCHARD: Nova Scotia/ Nunavut Command would wholeheartedly throw our support behind this motion that comrade Percy made and supported 100 per cent. I think it is really a step in the right direction.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Paris, you wanted to make . . .
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MR. PARIS: I want to make this clear and I don't want us to get confused; anything that we send to whoever we send to about initiating an awareness campaign is not about logistics, it is just the request. It is not our role to say what it is going to look like, whether it is going to - it is not our role to make up the design of what that campaign is going to look like. What we're requesting is that an initiative be started.
MR. CHAIRMAN: If it is the wishes of the committee, if they would allow me to perhaps when I send a letter to the minister with the motion and our request, to add to that we would also, as a committee, like to know what initiatives you, as a government, are going to do to educate the public on the enforcement of this Act henceforward. Then, when we receive that response, then we can deal with that issue from there, in fairness to allow the government to make their decision.
MR. BAIN: I agree with that, Mr. Chairman, I was going to make that suggestion.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, if there are no further questions, I am going to allow the members of the Nunavut Command who have come in to see us today, to have a final conversation with us.
MR. HATCHER: Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to say that the Legion would like to participate in your suggestion, when it goes to the minister, on education for the public and businesses. We would certainly like to participate in that and be a partner.
MR. CHAIRMAN: As part of that letter that I send, I will acknowledge that to the minister and to the Premier.
MR. HATCHER: Mr. Chairman, if I just may in closing, I just want to make it quite clear that the Legion is quite happy with the Remembrance Day Act the way it is. We would just like to go along with the education and enforcement of that Act. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for coming in and reminding us of the importance and of the sacrifice that so many people have made to allow us the freedom to sit around the table, which has been mentioned a number of times today.
Just before we adjourn I want to remind all the committee members that our next meeting will be on February 8th but it is at 1:00 p.m. until 3:00 p.m., which is a different time than we normally have. Nova Scotia Number 2 Construction Battalion will be in on that day. It is from 1:00 p.m. to 3:00 p.m. on February 8th.
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Does any member of the committee have further business?
We are adjourned.
[The committee adjourned at 10:14 a.m.]
