NOVA SCOTIA HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE
ON
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
Wednesday, June 3, 2026
COMMITTEE ROOM
Canada - Nova Scotia Canada-wide Early Learning and Child Care Agreement
Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
Public Accounts Committee
Susan Leblanc (Chair)
Tom Taggart (Vice-Chair)
Hon. Trevor Boudreau
Tim Outhit
Rick Burns
Dianne Timmins
Lisa Lachance
Hon. Iain Rankin
[Tim Outhit was replaced by Brad McGowan.]
[Lisa
Lachance was replaced by Paul Wozney.]
In Attendance:
Kim Langille
Legislative Committee Clerk
Gordon Hebb
Chief Legislative Counsel
Adam Harding
Assistant Auditor General
Geoff O’Connor
Audit Principal
WITNESSES
Department
of Education and Early Childhood Development
Tracey Barbrick - Deputy Minister
Pam Bussey -
Executive Director, Early Learning and Child Care
Child Care Now Nova Scotia
Karen Wright - Steering Committee Member
Susan Gill -
Steering Committee Member
YWCA Halifax
Kerri Johnson - Provincial Director, Early Learning and Child Care
Miia
Suokonautio - CEO
HALIFAX, WEDNESDAY, JUNE 3, 2026
STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
9:00 A.M.
CHAIR
Susan Leblanc
VICE-CHAIR
Tom Taggart
THE CHAIR: Order, please. Good morning, everyone. I’m going to call the meeting to order. This is the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. Our mandate is:
The Public Accounts Committee is established for the purpose of reviewing the public accounts, the annual report or other report of the Auditor General and any other financial matters respecting the public funds of the Province.
My name is Susan Leblanc and I am the MLA for Dartmouth North and the Chair of the committee. I use she/her pronouns. Before we begin, I’d just like to ask you to turn your phones to silent, and if there’s a need to exit the building in an emergency, we’ll exit through the Granville Street doors and meet at the Grand Parade.
I will first ask the committee members to introduce themselves, beginning with the member on my left with your name, your constituency, and your pronouns, please.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
THE CHAIR: I would like to make a special welcome this morning to MLA Boudreau, MLA Burns, and MLA Druhan, who are new members to the Public Accounts Committee, and also to congratulate and welcome MLA Taggart as the new Vice-Chair. Congratulations. You get to work with me. (Laughs) We also have officials from the Office of the Auditor General, the Legislative Counsel Office, and the Legislative Committee Office. They’re all in attendance with us today.
On today’s agenda, we have officials with us from the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development, the YWCA Halifax, and Child Care Now Nova Scotia regarding the Canada - Nova Scotia Canadia-wide Early Learning and Child Care Agreement, which we may pass a motion today to change the name of that. Before we begin, I’ll ask the witnesses to introduce yourselves, please, beginning with the witness on my left. Please let us know your name, your organization, and your pronouns.
[The witnesses introduced themselves.]
THE CHAIR: Now I will ask the witnesses to make opening remarks, beginning with the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development, and then we’ll go to the YWCA Halifax, and then Child Care Now Nova Scotia. Deputy Minister Barbrick.
TRACEY BARBRICK: This appearance is timely, with Nova Scotia entering a new phase of our child care transformation under the 2026 to 2031 extension agreement of the Canada - Nova Scotia Child Learning Agreement. You know what I’m talking about. Today, we have made outstanding progress in our work to transform child care, now ensuring the sustainability of the system that we have built is the priority. At the same time, we are managing new challenges as our transformation continues.
To understand where we are now, we need to think in terms of how far we’ve come. Since 2021, Nova Scotia has created 9,676 new child care spaces in communities across the province, exceeding the March 31, 2026 target of 9,500 spaces set by the federal government. These spaces are not abstract numbers. They represent families who can return to work, children who have access to quality early learning, and communities that are better supported.
Affordability has also improved significantly. Parent fees were reduced by 25 percent in 2021 and by another 25 percent in 2022 for children under six, for a total of 50 percent reduction. Today, the average family with a child under six is paying about $12.13 per day, saving thousands of dollars annually compared to just a few years ago. This average includes about 4,700 families with lower incomes that receive the Nova Scotia Child Care Subsidy and pay deeply discounted fees for access to child care.
We have also made substantial investments in the workforce, because a child care system cannot function without skilled early childhood educators. More than $17 million has been invested in education, training, and bursary programs. The provincial ECE wage scale was implemented in 2022, resulting in an average hourly increase of $13.70 for most of Nova Scotia’s more than 3,000 ECEs. Then, in 2023, we introduced group benefits and a defined benefit pension plan - critical steps toward stabilizing the workforce.
While this progress is significant, the work of transformation is ongoing and focused on long-term sustainability. At the system level, we are modernizing how child care operates. This includes upgrading digital tools and exploring a province-wide family registry and wait-list, which will reduce administrative burden for operators, give families better visibility into their options, and provide government with better data.
We are also working toward a standardized operational funding model to replace the current patchwork of grants. This will reduce complexity for operators and support future efforts toward more consistent parent fees. Throughout this work, we continue to engage regularly with the sector through the minister’s engagement table, sector calls, and ongoing dialogue with partners.
This phase of transformation is not without its challenges. Funding under the 2026-31 federal agreement is limited to maintaining our current system. With no additional funding in the current agreement, we are unable to reach $10 a day on average fees - something our federal partners have acknowledged. There are also exclusions in our federal agreements, including limits on private operator expansion funding and no mechanisms to reduce fees further for children over six.
These challenges are not unique to Nova Scotia; we know other provinces and territories are facing similar pressures. While some jurisdictions have made it to $10 a day on average by prioritizing lowering fees, others, like us, have focused on space creation and workforce supports. All jurisdictions continue to work collaboratively with the federal government to continue moving the needle on our respective child care transformations.
Our federal partners are aware of the constraints we are facing and conversations on a path forward remain active. Even with these challenges, however, what we have built is something our government and partners are proud of. The work under way is positioning the system to better serve families now and into the future.
In closing, Nova Scotia has made real, measurable progress in transforming child care. We are committed to protecting that progress and moving forward with a focus on affordability, accessibility, and sustainability for the long term.
THE CHAIR: Thank you, deputy minister. Now we’ll move on to Ms. Johnson.
KERRI JOHNSON: The Canada - Nova Scotia Canada-Wide Early Learning and Child Care Agreement between the Government of Canada and the Province of Nova Scotia has made child care more affordable and accessible across Nova Scotia, particularly for our low-income and lone-parent families. Fee reductions have directly increased demand and strengthened families’ financial stability.
At the same time, the workforce that delivers this care requires meaningful support. While pay bands, benefits, and pensions have improved retention, many educators lack paid professional development days, sick leave, or reliable substitute coverage. Mandatory training often happens outside of work hours, reducing participation and risking burnout.
To sustain the system, we must ensure that educators are supported with paid professional development, accessible leave, and practical training that aligns with the real-world operational demands. Without this, we risk undermining the very quality improvements the strategy aims to achieve. Thank you.
THE CHAIR: Thank you, Ms. Johnson.
Now to Ms. Suokonautio.
MIIA SUOKONAUTIO: Thank you very much, and thank you, everybody, again, for this opportunity to be here today. We’re very excited to answer any questions.
We come as an operator. I really appreciate the deputy minister’s comments and that global view. We can provide our perspective as an operator in that we operate multiple centres and also before- and after-school programs. We’re also the largest family home child care agency in the province, just to situate where our expertise is located.
For us, this strategy has been exciting because it represents the largest investment in a very, very long time. Many of the things that have been mentioned, and that Kerri mentioned as well, have been very positive to see. Some of the challenges that we have really faced are the lack of the ability to have a systematic approach to wait-lists and to understanding the full need.
The second thing is that when we talk about a universal benefit, we have lost, sometimes, the view of the special needs. We know that Nova Scotia needs evening hours and overnight hours for our trades and shift workers. We know that families who have children with complex - medically fragile children - are not able to access centres. We know that the management of those lists and communities continues to be a significant challenge. Rural communities in particular - from our experience, opening a child care centre scheduled to open July 1st has been a multi-year project, because the needs in rural communities are especially difficult. A strategy for rural communities is also specifically needed that meets their needs.
I’m happy to answer any more questions. Those are some of our key points.
THE CHAIR: Thank you very much. We’ll move to Ms. Wright.
KAREN WRIGHT: Hi, and thank you all for this opportunity. As stated, I’m the executive director of North End Community Day Care Centre, and I’ve worked there since 1982. With that, I began advocating for a child care system, and in 1988, began advocating for a child care system for my own children. Today I’m advocating for my grandchildren.
Unfortunately, I know that there are still families who are desperate for child care, even after all our advocating. The government funding that has gone into child care since 2021 is a really important investment. We know how much families benefit from lower fees and getting access to child care. Parents need care. We know the need for high-quality care for their children and enriching opportunities that support children’s growth and their development.
We have heard that unless you receive additional funding, you will only use existing funding to sustain the current system. If you pause right now, the system will fall apart.
The game changer would have been a new operating model. We were promised a level of funding in a model that would provide sufficient funding according to the actual costs for us to provide quality care. For example, in 2023, North End paid 1 percent of our budget in rent; today we pay 21 percent of our budget due to a relocation. There was no base revenue increase for us.
A few other examples of surviving on grants: Although I strongly support the new food guidelines and I think they’re great, there was no additional funding to increase the density and the better quality of food that’s now being required. Benefits also - our Quality Investment Grant only allows us to claim worked hours on the floor for our early childhood educators. Sick days, bereavement days, vacation days - all quality indicators for our child care system are required to be covered by the centre outside of the grant.
Another hurdle is that parents’ fees were frozen, but not at a standardized rate. It was frozen at what your fee was at the time you signed the agreement. North End was one of the lowest parent fees in Nova Scotia at that time because we utilized our low rent to pass on the savings to our parents. Today, with the fee caps and limited funding, what are centres supposed to do to bridge these gaps?
I was pleased to be told in 2020 by this Department of Education and Early Childhood Development that we would no longer have to fundraise to meet our needs. North End is going to have to go back to fundraising to meet our operational costs.
Non-profits are ready to step in to expand and continue to provide excellent quality licensed child care. Let us do that with a quality-funded model.
THE CHAIR: Ms. Gill, do you have anything to offer for opening comments?
[9:15 a.m.]
SUSAN GILL: I’ll give you a little background on myself. I’m a national representative with Unifor. I live and work in Sydney and represent over 5,000 workers in my assignment. The vast majority of them are publicly funded. They work at the Nova Scotia Health Authority, IWK Health, group homes, small options homes, homeless shelters, but for today’s purposes, it is multiple non-profit centres within industrial Cape Breton.
Affordable, accessible child care is the cornerstone of any successful economy and in society. It’s not just a women’s issue but a society issue as a whole. When families cannot access affordable, reliable child care, they are forced to make those challenging decisions about, “Do I work outside the home, or do I choose not to work?” Too often, this burden falls disproportionately on women, who ultimately choose to reduce their working hours or leave the workplace entirely.
The end result of this decision is families, workplaces, social programs, children’s social development, and the overall economy as a whole suffer. In a recent study published by the CIBC titled Reducing the ‘Motherhood Penalty’, women forced to make this decision to leave the workforce as a result of the inability to access child care increases the likelihood of wage-earning gaps between families and children that do not have to exist.
While significant progress has been made to close these gaps in earnings and overall economic impacts on families, there’s still room to grow. While Nova Scotia should be commended for its investment in the child care sector, there is also significant room for growth and a multitude of gaps that can be narrowed. I can attest to the positive impact on my membership of increased salaries, benefits, and pensions funded through the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development. It has kept members in the workforce and finally provided some recognition for the vital service they provide in educating, nurturing, and caring for children. Parents are able to be employed outside of the home, providing for their families and worrying less about who’s caring for their children while doing so.
Nova Scotia has fallen quite short of its target expansion of centres and availability of spots, though. There has been little investment into the expansion of non-profit centres, while the most recent investments have been focused on private, for-profit centres. Despite strong community demand, particularly for infant and rural care, our centres have been repeatedly told there is no remaining funding for increasing subsidized spaces or infrastructure funding. This is discouraging for centres that would relish the opportunity to expand and wondering why their children cannot find a spot.
Many parents in my community understand they should secure a spot on a wait-list for centres as soon as they know they will be expecting a child. The lack of a centralized wait-list also forces parents to enter multiple centres in their communities in hopes that one will open up. This is assuming that licensed centres are even available outside in their community.
The ultimate goal of the Canada - Nova Scotia Canada-Wide Early Learning and Child Care Agreement is to provide $10-a-day child care for all families, but Nova Scotia has fallen short of this goal, as well. The average fee in my area for child care is $18 for pre-school and toddler, while infant care is available at $23 per day. These rates are set by the department, and centres are prohibited from raising these fees, but little has been invested to offset the overall operating costs of the centres.
These shortcomings include new regulations on dietary requirements to maintain license requirements, the overall cost of food, fuel, power, and general operating costs to keep the centre open. Non-profit centres in my area are forced to raise funds privately through silent auctions, 50/50 draws, ticket sales, and bake sales just to keep the doors open. The Quality Investment Grant is cumbersome, while a short turnaround time means centres are struggling to submit their funds quickly. One of my centres recently wasn’t able to meet payroll because of this administrative process and holiday banking. In no circumstances should a worker ever be left unpaid for work.
The QIG grant only supports ratioed hours, so these unionized centres with greater benefits in their collective agreement are forced to find these funds elsewhere. Those centres have dietary supports, such as cooks and cleaners, and they’re not funded through the QIG grants as well. Many centres say that the department is not getting a clear picture of the number of staff required to work in the centres to maintain the ratios and cover for breaks and lunches. There’s little room in budget to allow for any fluctuation in rising operating costs and staffing, and centres are really struggling to maintain the quality service they so proudly provide.
The rollout of the retroactive wage adjustment has also impacted the morale of ECEs in centres across the sector. I can say that our ECEs in Cape Breton have yet to receive their retroactive payments in 18 months. ECEs are still waiting to receive those payments. Responses from the minister when Unifor has questioned them on it was that it’s complicated and they’re working on it. That did nothing to appease the ECEs. While union advocates are paying pushed off without real, solid answers, directors in my area are being told there was no money in the budget to fund these retroactive payments.
While the dismissal of our concerns over the wages, Unifor is rethinking our bargaining strategy in the future with this sector. If the current government cannot live up to their commitment made with us with respect to timely wages and benefits, Unifor may rethink their commitment with respect to collective bargaining. It should not be this way.
Unifor has been a proud partner in advocating federal and provincial governments for adequate funding for affordable child care and its overall impact on a strong, functioning economy. We are aware that more investment needs to come from the federal government, and we are doing our part, but Nova Scotia needs to increase their investment as well. While they’ve shown greater investment throughout the province, we’re still falling short in funding, expansion, availability to all communities, and a true living wage. We should all be willing to invest in child care as a whole.
THE CHAIR: Thank you very much. We’re going to move on to questions. We’ll begin with MLA Wozney.
PAUL WOZNEY: In February, the minister said that the average child care fee was around $12 a day, something that Deputy Minister Barbrick reiterated in her opening remarks here. Yet the parents that I and others in my caucus hear from on a daily basis, month over month, reflect that parents around the province are paying significantly more than that - something that was reflected in opening remarks from other presenters today.
I think the problem is everything being boiled down to an average number. In the Legislature, I asked for a breakdown of costs by types of child care spaces. Today, with opportunity and access to data, Deputy Minister Barbrick, I’m hoping that you can provide this clear breakdown. Can you please outline the current daily averages for the different categories of spaces in this sector - that is, the current daily average for infant spaces, the current daily average for toddler spaces, and the current daily average for pre-Primary-age spaces?
THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.
TRACEY BARBRICK: This issue around $10 a day and how it’s calculated has certainly received a lot of conversation. The federal government establishes the requirements under the agreement that allow us to report what each province’s costs are. Again, if you look across the country, you’ll see three key levers that each province has been engaged in. One is parent fees, one is operating dollars, and one is wages and benefits. Every province has done something a little bit differently on these three variables. You can stack provinces up on any of the one, and they may be further ahead on one, further behind on others.
Nova Scotia is a leader in the country when you look at those three variables in terms of our rate. The $12.13 a day average includes all of the various formats of child care within the province. I do have the breakdown. The average fee for infants - again, you’re 100 percent correct; this is an average across the province. There’s not a median, there’s not an upper, there’s not a lower. It is an average. The average for infants is $18.60. The average for toddlers is $18.20. The average for pre-schoolers is $17.80. The average for school-age is $10.50.
You will certainly find variation across the province. You can find lots of families who might be paying more or less. In addition to that, the subsidy that exists for families with a household income of less than $70,000, we’ve got over 6,000 children in that subsidy program who have that rate - their household cost is lowered with the use of a subsidy.
PAUL WOZNEY: Thank you for the clarity on the average daily cost for each of the different classes of child care spaces. That’s long been needed, and those much higher than $12.15-a-day rates certainly are more reflective of the lived experience of Nova Scotians as they interact with their MLAs and child care advocates. It’s clear there’s a difference between almost $19 an hour and $10 an hour - it’s substantial for families and underscores the necessity of continued investment by the Province to make sure that we reach this target.
Affordable, accessible child care isn’t a luxury in a healthy economy. It is a bedrock necessity. A woman in my constituency told me that she would have to leave her good-paying job if she couldn’t find child care, and far too many women are stuck in this rock-and-a-hard-place dynamic. We know she’s not the only one in this position. Deputy Minister Barbrick, I’m wondering if you can outline how many children are currently on a daycare waiting list across the province.
TRACEY BARBRICK: I just want to go back to a previous comment so that we can close that gap on the average issue. Again, I know this has been something that’s been raised in various places around dispute, around the inclusion of pre-Primary in Nova Scotia’s accepted formula by the federal government. Our pre-Primary program for four-year-olds, there are almost 7,000 - a little over 7,000 children in that program. It’s a free program and includes all of the things that are typically offered in a school, and it costs the Province $75 million a year to deliver. The inclusion of that $75 million in the development of the average from those numbers we just talked about to the $12.13 are four-year-olds who would otherwise be in child care and would be taking up 7,000 other spaces. The fact that the $75 million is part of the accepted formula by the federal government makes perfect sense. It is four-year-olds who would otherwise be in child care. That $75 million is part of the Province’s contribution to provide care for children, and that is part of the accepted formula.
THE CHAIR: Thank you for that clarification, but then there was a question from MLA Wozney about the number of children on the wait-list.
TRACEY BARBRICK: Yes, wait-list. Apologies, I lost my train of thought there. It happens sometimes. (Laughs) The wait-list issue that we’ve also talked about a lot, there is not currently a provincially managed wait-list. The child care connect piece that we are working on now, that we have put out an RFP for and are evaluating vendors would be a digital system that basically takes the Province’s collection of child care into one portal. That portal will do a number of things: service providers would register there; families would register there; it would be a mandatory participation so we make sure that we actually have an accurate reflection; it would provide government better data around our actual wait-list because right now we’re putting together pieces to make up that story. Statistics Canada and the federal government have established a 59 percent coverage goal based on statistics - how many children are in this province and how many we expect through the Child Care Agreement to have spaces for.
That child care connect digital portal would also allow providers - to some of my colleagues’ earlier comments around the burdensome administrative process for service providers. That would all be done digitally. We would have better line of sight to ECEs and employees within the system around registration, certification - would all be done through a common portal. That is not a small undertaking. It’s not just a spreadsheet that everybody loads information to. It will be a digital portal that will allow us so much more intelligence about what’s actually happening, and families would be better supported for matches in their communities. That work is under way. You’ll see in the TCA plan and our budget, there is money for that work, and the work is well in development. The RFP has gone out. We’re selecting a vendor so we can keep moving forward with that. We all 100 percent agree that is very much required.
[9:30 a.m.]
PAUL WOZNEY: We know families are having to put themselves on multiple child care wait-lists as early as immediately learning that someone is pregnant, just to be able to get care. This is enormously stressful and time-consuming for families, but particularly for people who are pregnant. Ms. Johnson or Ms. Suokonautio, in your submission to the committee, you called on the government to implement a centralized wait-list and demand management system. I’m wondering if you can speak to what value such a mechanism would add to the project of creating and sustaining $10-a-day day care in this province.
THE CHAIR: Ms. Suokonautio.
MIIA SUOKONAUTIO: Very well done on my last name. I really appreciate it. With all due respect to my wonderful colleague here with the department, this has been at the top of our wish list from the start. We were just looking at the numbers - over 600 families on our wait-list for our licensed centres alone, primarily infants. What we had asked - I will tell you the story. When the Canada - Nova Scotia Canada-Wide Early Learning and Child Care Agreement framework was announced, I was in my car, and I was listening to it on CBC Radio. I got out of car. I was pumping gas, and I thought, “We can solve this problem.” The YWCA put in an unsolicited proposal to the Province as soon as the funding was announced. It was that summer, five and a half years ago.
On that list were things like shared services between centres: property management, bulk purchasing, things that we could help that we knew as operators were costly, time-consuming, and could make a difference. The other one is waiting lists. It is a wild west for families who are trying to get their children into a centre. They have to literally call every centre. They have to hope that the centre has someone ready to receive that call. Some centres are just using a spiral ring binder and putting names in. They don’t have that information, and they don’t know - of the 600 we have, we have no idea how many of those families have already received care, are on multiple wait-lists.
For us, from a very logical perspective, this should have been step one. Then it should be informing the investments in new spaces. If we find, for example, in the village of Tatamagouche, there are no centres in the entire community, then we should be investing there. How many families? That would guide how many spaces are needed. We are now looking at three very large centres all being opened in Bayers Lake. The question becomes: Is there going to be enough demand to support those? Without data and the wait-list management system, we have not been able to make thoughtful planning processes. Providers are left to trust that there’s going to be demand. We are investing in and signing agreements to operate centres, hoping that we will get to full enrolment and that we can cover the costs.
To me, we’re in a limbo right now with these new spaces coming without the back data. We had in our mind, and we had even quoted at the time, something that’s a hybrid between REALTOR.ca and Airbnb, where you could see GPS-based where the centre is, and your tombstone data for your child is unique identifiers. You can put that in, and you can add your child into a centre. As soon as they’re enrolled, they’re going to fall off everybody else’s wait-list because we know families are also going to pick centres based on a number of criteria: the neighbourhood, where they work.
We also know that supports for disabilities, operating hours, or cultural inclusion - we know that centres, for example, in our family home child cares, that a family, let’s say, that is a particular linguistic group, will travel extra kilometres in order for their child to have that kind of access that meets their needs. The absence of that systematic approach is a huge issue. It affects our planning, our operations. As non-profits, we’re taking huge risks operating centres that we do not have any guarantees are going to be operating. My board has had to vote in support of opening, for example, in Tatamagouche, and we’re just trusting that there are going to be kids to go there without the backup data.
Sorry, that was a long answer. But it’s one of my key points here.
PAUL WOZNEY: On last-name solidarity, as someone who suffers chronic mispronunciation - I’m 50 years old, and it’s 95 percent wrong - it’s important to me on principle to pay people the respect of appropriate pronunciation of their names. You deserve that much.
I want to thank you for your answer. It’s a compelling one. I think it paints a picture. Has there been a commitment by federal and provincial partners to address a child care crisis in Nova Scotia? The answer is yes, but how intelligent? How thoughtful has the approach been? Really, we’re years into an approach, having made a whole bunch of decisions that haven’t been informed by data that gives us a clear scope of the problem, who needs help, what kind of help, and where. In the absence of that kind of data, we throw money at problems and hope that it works, as opposed to knowing that we’re designing solutions in response to real needs and that those solutions are tailored to the people who need them right where they are. Your point is well made, and I hope everybody present understands the need to support a central child care wait-list.
I just would highlight that before the current minister took on that role, he spoke in favour of the NDP’s call for a centralized wait-list. He said, and I quote, that this government is “spending tens of millions of dollars every year, and you have no clue how many people are waiting for child care.” I think your answer captures succinctly why a centralized wait-list is so central and so vital to the project of achieving $10-a-day daycare across the province in every community, for every kind of family, for a child of every need.
Any parent will tell you the story - story after story. It’s interesting - you talked about people and if they go on some kind of list like this, they may drop off a whole bunch of others. The story I hear is that people will get on every list they can possibly get on just to hope that they get any care at all, whether or not the features that their child needs are met by that availability or not. The fact is they just want any child care at all in the current market. That might be a more pronounced issue in greater Halifax, but it’s also not germane to Halifax. We hear about those circumstances in rural Nova Scotia.
As much as the Province celebrates the creation of 9,500 spaces, it hasn’t acknowledged that since 2021, some 1,797 daycare spaces have been closed over that same period of time. While we’ve created 9,500, we’ve lost almost 2,000.
I want to go back to Deputy Minister Barbrick. I’m wondering if you can tell me how many spaces the department understands will either close or are at risk for closure in the coming year.
THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.
TRACEY BARBRICK: I’m going to step back a little bit on the previous piece on the digital system. I think we - because I worked in health care for years - insured services under health care started in 1967. The evolution of expansion of insured services, what’s been added - continuing care got added in, emergency rooms got added in, primary care got added in. Over time, this national system of health care matured policy positions were taken. Investment was made. Digital systems came online. Some of them were connected, some of them weren’t. We get smarter and we learn more as we go, and technology catches up. Then you start things like OPOR and moving into centralized records.
If we compare that to child care, in 2021, there was no provincial child care system at all. In five years, we have added 9,500 spaces - which I’ll talk about in a second - brought in wages, benefits, and standardized compensation; added employees; added seats and spots; and made it more affordable. It will continue to mature. We will add more digital capacity as we move forward, so we’ll continue with that.
THE CHAIR: MLA Wozney, you have one and a half minutes. Would you like to hear more from Deputy Minister Barbrick?
PAUL WOZNEY: Yes, specifically on the question of since 2021, we know that just under 1,800 daycare spaces have closed. My question is: How many spaces are slated to close this year or are at risk of closing this year?
THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick with one minute exactly.
TRACEY BARBRICK: We work very closely with providers on an ongoing basis around their plans for their service. Do things change that we couldn’t know of because families decide to do something different, business owners decide to do something different? Pam has a team of people who are working closely with the 340 providers on the daily and trying to figure out who might be thinking about doing something different. When we can facilitate new operators taking over those seats, we do that. That’s an ongoing relationship management with the sector.
THE CHAIR: MLA Wozney, with 20 seconds.
PAUL WOZNEY: I will cede my time my next colleague.
THE CHAIR: We’ll move on to MLA Druhan.
HON. BECKY DRUHAN: I want to thank all the witnesses for being here. I’ll be very selfish and say this is something that’s deeply important and I personally care about deeply. Not to root this in me; this is something that’s incredibly important for our province and for our families. The child care transformation: You’ve each spoken about its importance, its significance in different ways. I want to echo that. This is vitally important for learning and development of our children and our youth. It’s incredibly important for families’ economic opportunities, particularly women who are disadvantaged primarily as a result of lack of access or limited access to child care. Having available, accessible, affordable, quality child care is a game-changer for families, both in their social and economic development, but also in community development.
It’s important for our workforce and the development of our economy. You can’t expand a workforce if those folks who want to be in the workforce can’t find child care. That’s a significant detriment and challenge. We hear government talk a lot about economic expansion right now. This was certainly something when I was involved in this work that was very much an awareness of mine. You can’t expand your workforce if your workforce doesn’t have child care.
It’s also, I think - the availability of child care is a social determinant of health and well-being. It even has a protective impact on gender-based violence and other well-being issues that community members are facing. I think we could all go on and on about the benefits that we see to having this transformation unfold and succeed. I’m incredibly proud of the work that the department has done. This is a dedicated, diligent, skilled, knowledgeable team. Having been with the team for a number of years, I witnessed first-hand the devotion and care that the team has put into this.
I also want to say, none of this would have happened without the advocacy of the sector. This is something that has been needed for decades. The work that has gone on with the department and with the sector really has - I will say has been hand-in-hand. That was something we worked early on to try to facilitate because this is a complex, generational transformation. As the deputy minister said, this was not a system initially. This was a patchwork of services and operators and deeply dedicated, largely, women who were trying to provide service and care.
I’m really proud of what’s happened already. The increase in salaries, the focus on and provision of benefits and pensions, the reduction in fees, the increase in spaces: None of that would have been possible without everyone’s contribution. I also want to recognize and share my appreciation for the engagement table’s role in all of this. One of the things that we prioritized early on in the work was setting up an engagement table. This is a system that has thousands of people across the province and very diverse experiences. As we’ve said, it really wasn’t a system.
[9:45 a.m.]
That’s a complex transformation that needs as much input as possible from the people who understand it. That’s really what the creation of the table was about. I value the contribution that the table has made as well.
That was a very long prelude to my questions, but I think it bears repeating: The magnitude of this transformation is really generational.
I have a number of questions. I’m going to start with the question of fees, because it has been something that families are very deeply interested in. Affordability is a key component of this. When I was part of government, I can say, we were committed to achieving the $10-a-day milestone and were working hard towards that. But I will acknowledge that we all understood, not just within Nova Scotia but the other provinces as well, that as a result of the really unpredictable and challenging circumstances that have unfolded over the last number of years, we would need to go further to reach that goal of $10 a day. There was advocacy - I know I advocated, and the team was advocating with our federal partners - about supports around that.
Where we find ourselves now, we’ve already - my colleague has already asked about it, and we’ve already gotten details about where we have landed now in terms of what those fees are. We’re not yet at $10 a day.
I guess the first question that I have is: Recognizing that we need to do more, there were times when I, as minister, advocated very publicly for supports that we needed from the federal government. That’s not something that I’ve seen from the current minister. I’m wondering if the department can share anything about the minister’s efforts to advocate at that federal table to ensure that Nova Scotia does get the support it needs to get us to that $10-a-day mark.
THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.
TRACEY BARBRICK: I’m happy to do that. I don’t have dates in front of me, but we have had a number of fed-prov meetings - official, very formal, official - in fact, we have one next week in Québec City. In addition to that, certainly Minister Maguire has been very active with both his federal Nova Scotia representatives as well as the previous minister, Minister Sudds, and the current minister, Minister Hajdu. He has had multiple conversations with them multiple times over the last year.
In addition to that, Pam’s team has very active and ongoing senior official meetings with both all-provinces and federal-provincial representatives - lots of active engagement there and certainly outreach to local MPs to gain support for the notion that additional investment will be required.
Because this point is a really important one for every province across the country that is working through its own unique challenges in this space and having conversations like this in every province - there are only two provinces that have defined-benefits pension plans for employees in this sector. We are one of the two. Our $12.13-a-day average - I think four provinces are now at $10 a day, but I could rhyme off exactly where they stand in terms of whether they’ve met their space targets and what they’ve done with their compensation framework. There’s variation across the country. Every province is grappling with that right now. They’ve made decisions along the way - that you would have been quite involved with at the time - as we try to get that.
The continued discussion with the federal government - I think they have multiple challenges on their plates in terms of where money is allocated. I don’t think anyone is taking this issue lightly around the commitment and the amount of investment over the last few years, but it absolutely continues.
Part of the asterisks that I will put around the operating-model discussion and how there’s disappointment that we don’t have that plane landed - part of the determination of what we can do with standardized operating funds, with all of those elements that some of my colleagues have raised, is reliant on how much money we have in the pot. As long as the discussions with the federal government have remained active, which they have, to land an operating model today, without certainty on that for the next five years, would be a different operating model than if we get some signals that there’s some additional money to go in the pot. We’re trying to land that plane so that the operating model can jump off from that appropriately.
BECKY DRUHAN: I do recall and appreciate the amount of dialogue that certainly I as minister had and the teams had with our provincial colleagues and then with the federal colleagues. As you’ve said, every province is grappling with similar challenges, but they manifest very differently in each province because the starting points were different and the choices on how to move forward with the transformations have all been different.
I do wonder, though - there were times when we felt those conversations needed to be escalated to formal advocacy. I recall at least a couple of issues where it was important enough that I wrote directly to the minister - the federal counterpart - in a public way to advocate for what we needed.
I don’t recall having seen anything that the current minister has done on that in relation to funding. Can you advise if that has happened? Is there a letter in play? If so, can you let us know what might be in that?
TRACEY BARBRICK: Lots of exchanges over the last year. I would say the most recent was a letter from the Atlantic ministers to all of the Atlantic MPs lobbying for their support in Ottawa around this conversation. That probably was a month or maybe six weeks ago, and was probably the last effort to try to draw attention and support to this conversation.
BECKY DRUHAN: Could we get a copy of that? Is that something public that you could share?
TRACEY BARBRICK: It’s not been public, but I don’t have any issue with sharing it. All ministers in Atlantic have sent that to their local MPs. That’s fine.
THE CHAIR: We’ll follow up with that. MLA Druhan.
BECKY DRUHAN: In that same vein, again, when I was in government as minister, we were deeply committed to reaching this milestone, even recognizing that more would need to be done to enable that to happen.
There are two pots of money to draw from. There is federal funding and there is provincial funding, so the other pathway to achieving this is for the Province to fund what is needed to reach that $10-a-day mark. We did it before. When we looked at pensions and benefits and we needed to meet that mark, the Province kicked in extra funding to enable that to happen.
Can you share any information about considerations for provincial funding to support this milestone and this commitment that the government has made and up until recently has reiterated, and whether the minister has advocated internally to land this?
TRACEY BARBRICK: I could pull out lists of numbers, but I won’t. Generally, the Province’s funding for child care right now is around 58 percent. The federal government’s contribution is 42 percent. The Province’s money in the pot, if you will, over the last five years, has increased materially over those years. A lot of that is anchored in wage increases and investment in workforce. That’s continued.
The engagement with the federal government around the next iteration of this agreement - I will just point out that the timing of the signing of the maintenance agreement was just prior to a federal election. There was quite a bit of interest in us getting that done in the event that anything changed. The extension agreement was a maintenance agreement and signed with lots of caveats around additional conversation that needs to happen with the federal government.
The provincial government has continued to invest more and more every year, and a large portion - more than half of the contribution in general - to this very important policy initiative for the Province and across the country.
In terms of the provincial government decisions as part of ongoing budgets, we will certainly continue to do that. We’d like to get this federal government piece landed so we can determine what the gap is at the end of that conversation. Again, because it is still so active, if at any point we got a “we’re done with this conversation now,” then we need to make decisions about the envelope and how we allocate the envelope. At this point, those conversations are still active, so we need to play that out before we can land how much money we have to work with, what the gaps are, what we need to fill, and answer those questions.
BECKY DRUHAN: I do appreciate that. Sometimes if you move ahead on a provincial basis, you miss the opportunity to receive federal funding if you’ve already made a commitment, but this is a deadline that the Province had committed to. Recognizing that commitment, is there a timeline that the government has in mind by which the determination would be made that we’re not going to get the answer on the federal contribution or additional federal contribution and we just need to go ahead anyway?
TRACEY BARBRICK: There hasn’t been a date set at which we would make that determination. A couple of things that every family in this province lives and understands is the volatility that has been CPI across the country and all things tied to inflationary pressures.
The part that people maybe don’t see - because we talk so much about the market basket measure for a family and how that has had its own challenges for certain. If there is a separate construction CPI rate that’s recorded by Statistics Canada. That construction in terms of the envelope of money that the federal government awarded to every province in 2021 and now has simply been a maintenance agreement since then - so when you’re deciding how much money you’re going to allocate to capital, to bricks and mortar, things we need there, workforce stuff, parent fees, all of those kind of levers in this conversation - nobody anticipated a 35 percent increase in construction inflation over that five-year window.
So the money that was in the pot that you would have had a plan for how that’s going to be divided and what that should be able to accomplish for every province changed dramatically with 35 percent construction inflation changing the game entirely. Every square foot of bricks and mortar went from one rate to another rate pretty quickly. That, of course, has eaten into the ability to do some other things.
We’ll continue to kind of try to move this forward. Like I say, the door is still open to the conversations. Pam’s team, I think, with the senior officials right now at ESDS are - I don’t even know how much they talk, but it’s regular back and forth on this continued element around the provisions for the longer term.
THE CHAIR: MLA Druhan with just over two minutes.
BECKY DRUHAN: Thank you for that. I also appreciate that fundamentally, these large government funding decisions are in the hands of the ministers in Cabinet. Departments have to execute on those decisions that ministers and Cabinet make.
Government focus has really been on economic development, which is important. That’s important for the wellbeing of our communities and our families, but we’ve all talked at this table about how important child care is to that mandate. We’ve seen a willingness from government to invest big dollars into economic development. I would suggest that there should be an equal willingness to step up and meet these milestones with provincial funding if we can’t get the federal funding because for all of the important reasons, including their primary focus right now, which is economic development. That, I think, is really a question for the minister and for Cabinet.
Maybe we’ll have to pick it up after, but I will move on to ask about the recent investment that was announced in what I understand to be maybe private and for-profit centres. It sounds like there have been some significant announcements lately regarding those, potentially the centres in Bayers Lake. I’m curious whether this funding came from the agreement or was this an entirely provincial investment, because I know the agreement very much is focused on non-profit centres.
The federal government has been quite strict in its interpretation - or at least it certainly was when I was involved - in the use of that funding. I wonder if you could share how private operators are being funded, and whether that is coming entirely out of the provincial funds, or has there been a change to the interpretation of the agreement?
[10:00 a.m.]
THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick, with 30 seconds, and I will have to cut you off, so I apologize in advance.
TRACEY BARBRICK: Okay. I can be really fast. First of all, the provincial investment in 2021-22 is $124 million; this year it’s $280 million. There’s been a sizeable increase in the provincial contribution to this. In terms of Bayers Lake, Pam can fill in the details, but it continues that for-profit operators are not eligible for capital money. They are eligible for operating dollars, so I’m not sure exactly of the details on that particular one, but that remains the same, that the capital money cannot be allocated to for-profit.
THE CHAIR: Amazing, perfect. We’re going to move on to MLA Boudreau please.
HON. TREVOR BOUDREAU: Thank you all for coming. It’s certainly an important topic, and I think we all agree on that, and how important it is to growing our economy and seeing our province move forward. I have a couple of questions.
The first one is a pretty basic question, but as you guys have talked a little bit, I think the context is important as well. It was going to be just about how many new child care spaces we have created, and the number we’ve heard here is 9,600. In the context of that, maybe there’s a bit more data and detail you can give in terms of how many were there before as well. This is a 9,600 increase, but what was there before, for context? Do we have an idea of those numbers? If there’s anything else you want to elaborate on in terms of the actual total number of spaces.
THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.
TRACEY BARBRICK: I’ll start and then Pam can fill in so much more. Pam’s been in this business now since nearly the beginning of this journey, and her depth of knowledge will far surpass mine any day of the week.
Generally, there are a little over 36,000 spaces in all of their forms, lots of different forms of child care, before-and-after, toddler, infant, preschoolers, pre-Primary in our case. The growth has been the 9,676. We have lost some operators. We also have another over 2,600 spaces coming online in the upcoming years while all the current construction projects carry on. That will have us over 10,500 spaces by the time this infrastructure money is fully expended and all those projects that are under way are finalized.
The other important thing on the journey - and I don’t discount for one minute any of the things that you are all saying around continued need, the importance in families, particularly importance of women, the importance for children, and the fact that this journey will continue. What I want to acknowledge is that we are five years into a journey that really is pretty remarkable in the whole scheme of things, so of course we need to keep going.
All of the items that my colleagues here have raised, of course, need to be carried on. Nobody is rejecting that in any way. But the part to be acknowledged is the Canada-wide standard set a target of 59 percent of children under six; there will be spaces for 59 percent of those children. That was a target that was set by the federal government as part of the Canada – Nova Scotia Canada-Wide Early Learning and Child Care Agreement. In Nova Scotia right now, 10 of 16 geographic areas have hit that 59 percent. By the time these additional seats come online, we’ll be at 12 of 16.
Of course there is still a distance to go, of course families are still looking for child care, and we need to do better on the matching and making those things all happen with the work that’s under way, and funded and allocated, and that work is happening. The growth across the province has continued, and there is more to do, but we’ve just come so far. In terms of more specific details - Pam, you would have some things to share there that are beyond what I just added.
THE CHAIR: Ms. Bussey.
PAM BUSSEY: Our overall child care system has around 36,000 spaces across the various forms, whether it’s pre-Primary, family home, centre-based care, or before- and after-school program. We have created 2,600 spaces in those licensed child care settings, over 2,500 in family home, and 4,400 in the Nova Scotia BAP program. Child care spaces fluctuate every single day based on children who move between classrooms. We have overall capacity numbers, but we do not have a figure we could replicate right back to 2021, when the agreement was signed.
We do have baseline numbers, however. They are in the initial Canada - Nova Scotia Canada-Wide Early Learning and Child Care Agreement, and of course we can provide a further breakdown of those as well, which would be the difference between what we’ve added and where we were when we started in 2021.
TREVOR BOUDREAU: I think that was really good context. It kind of gives an idea of - my math is really quick, but 10,500 spaces, and there’s 36,000 in there - it’s close to a 30-percent increase in total number of spaces.
My second question, and then I’ll pass it on to my colleagues - it’s interesting. I was in this realm 18 years ago. Almost 18 - my son’s birthday is today. We were in that situation. I recall trying to find child care at the time, and some of the challenges and the costs associated with it. If my numbers serve me correctly, when my two children were in child care, I think it was somewhere along the lines of $22 each per day - $22 to $24 per day is what I was - 15 years ago.
I guess the question that I have is - again, maybe some context too - what progress have we made in reducing those child care fees since signing the agreement? We’re talking about $12.13 is the average. I don’t know what those numbers would have looked like when we started versus what they are now, but maybe some context to that. I remember it being a lot more 15 years ago. That’s not including inflation. I’m just curious as to some of that.
PAM BUSSEY: Of course, as you’ve mentioned, we have made significant progress in our fee reductions. While we have that $12.13 average, it certainly still is a lot of variation across the province, based on what individual families pay.
Back in 2021, when family fees were frozen in Nova Scotia, as an example, a family in Halifax at just one particular centre would have been paying $45 per day for infant care. Because of the 50-percent fee reduction that we’ve implemented, that family is now paying $22 per day. That means there is an extra $5,000 for that family that they can use to address their other household expenses - of course, child care being one of the largest ones that many families face.
There is significant variation. There are families who are paying $7 per day for child care, which brings us below that $10-a-day average. There are still families who are paying more like $18 or $19 a day. While acknowledging the significant progress that we’ve made, we do know that child care continues to be a barrier for some, which is also why we have the Nova Scotia Child Care Subsidy Program, which helps subsidize lower-income families to reduce those fees even further or have those children be able to access child care for free.
THE CHAIR: We’re moving on to MLA Burns.
RICK BURNS: Thank you, everybody, for coming in today. Much like my colleague, my kids are out of daycare for a number of years. My daughter just wrapped up university for her first year.
But I have an email address that goes back a really long time, so out of curiosity, from my personal perspective, I dug up an old invoice, and I paid $38 a day for 23 days. I have an invoice here for $874 for child care. Factoring in inflation, of course, that would be substantially different today. I think when we discuss numbers like $10 and $17 and $18, we’ve come a long way since my kids were in daycare. We paid for daycare all the way up to school.
In that time frame, though, we’ve introduced pre-Primary, something I’ve never gone through personally in the system. Probably would have saved us $38 a day at the time though. You mention that there’s debate. I’ve seen debate in the Legislature about the inclusion or non-inclusion of that, and I can speak first-hand that that would have taken a year of child care out of my system, personally.
I certainly relate to and understand that pre-Primary is effectively child care, because your children need care while you’re at work. The education system - whether it’s the daycare system, ECEs, elementary, and pre-Primary - are all part of where our children spend their day learning, educating, and being cared for.
Having said that, I’d like to ask about the pre-Primary setup. The Province fully funds that. The cost is effectively zero, I believe. It’s funny - when we get to a zero-dollar cost, we don’t frame it as a zero-dollar cost. The number sort of feels like it disappears into a budget line item instead of the $10-a-day discussion. When it surfaces in the average, it gets debated, but the reality is that if we didn’t have that program, it would be back in the child care system. We are providing support for that.
Could you talk a little bit about how the pre-Primary system is part of that process, how the funding for that works, and how the coverage for that works, and give us some of that context?
THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.
TRACEY BARBRICK: Funny enough, I, too, have children who are now almost 18 and 23, so I’m out of this stage, but when the pre-Primary pilot was rolled out, one of the schools that it was offered was Enfield. I lived in Fall River and drove my four-year-old daughter to Enfield every day, then drove downtown Halifax to work. I just saw the pre-Primary program - for my child, having the opportunity to be in that pilot program was an important feature, and it was free, as a by-product. And that’s four-year-olds - it’s a great segue into school.
There are also amazing pre-Primary-type programs in child care facilities across this province. The advantage to four-year-olds is maybe they get used to the school where they’re spending their time for the rest of their elementary school days. It’s free for families. They would pay for before- and after-school care. It’s like a school day. It’s a shorter day than what many people work, so they would have before- and after-school care that they would pay under this fee structure.
The other piece that goes with pre-Primary, which is something for us to think about in terms of long-term sustainability and all these things that we are thinking about, is they also have access to a bus, if the family is comfortable putting their four-year-old on a bus, and they have access to a free lunch program. There are lots of benefits to that.
About 70 percent of the kids who are eligible for pre-Primary go. For the families I know who choose not to send their child to pre-Primary, it’s because they have an arrangement in a great child care centre and they have come to be attached to the people who work there and the people who operate it. They make a choice that, with the changes in fee rates, they choose to make that investment and keep their child in the same place for another year. There’s about 30 percent of eligible kids who aren’t in pre-Primary, but that number grows a little bit every year, and that’s 7,000 spaces in child care centres that are available for other kids. So both are important and both are part of the landscape for four-year-olds, for sure.
THE CHAIR: We’re going to move on to MLA McGowan, please.
BRAD MCGOWAN: Thank you for being here and lending your voice and your expertise to this important conversation that impacts so many Nova Scotian families.
For Deputy Minister Barbrick, I just had a question. Could you discuss the recent investment in wages, benefits, professional development, and recruitment initiatives for early childhood educators and how that’s impacting the sector in, I would assume, a positive way?
THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.
TRACEY BARBRICK: It warrants highlighting, because the sector has grown to about 4,000 ECEs with the growth in seats. The wages, in some cases, have increased as much as 90-plus percent with a common compensation framework. There are a number of levels within an ECE classification, but that has, for the Level 1 ECEs with full-time work, close to a $60,000 annual wage with pension and benefits on top of that. That has been a game changer for stability in the sector, and the investment there has been sizeable.
[10:15 a.m.]
Again, there are only two provinces in the country that have done standardized pension and benefits. That remains to be seen as a remarkable feature of Nova Scotia’s system, and lots of other provinces continue to lobby to seek that same provision.
I’m going to turn this to Pam because I know Pam will have so much depth that she can offer there, if you’re okay with that, Chair.
THE CHAIR: Ms. Bussey.
PAM BUSSEY: In Nova Scotia, we absolutely prioritized workforce investments when we started our 2021 Canada-wide transformation. Largely it is because you can’t function a successful, high-quality child care system without those investments and having those highly skilled early childhood educators as part of that system.
In 2025-26, we invested $128.8 million in early childhood educator compensation. That is a 70 percent provincial investment and a 30 percent federal investment. As the deputy minister mentioned, the wage grid that we implemented back in 2022 saw wage increases between 69 percent and 92 percent. We moved from what was a wage floor of individuals being paid $15, $17, and $19 an hour to the top of those respective wage grids now being $28.83, $31.07, and $32.19. Those are staggering increases that we have invested to increase those wages. We, via the minister’s engagement table and also through other areas of sector engagement, have had resoundingly positive feedback from the sector.
In addition to that, those wages are tied to annual public service increases. There’s that ongoing expectation or, I guess, commitment that the Province has made to funding increases in line with the broader public service. As well, any increases in the employer cost for pension and benefits are also 100 percent covered by the Province of Nova Scotia.
BRAD MCGOWAN: This is a second question and again for Deputy Minister Barbrick. How important are programs like the Family Homes Startup Grant in helping create flexible child care options?
TRACEY BARBRICK: That particular grant - family home care arrangements we know are the most cost-effective option. They typically can be stood up the most quickly, but we also know that the choice to have child care in your home can also be something that changes over time.
In terms of stability, it has a very important place in the quilt of child care in the province, but it has a place that is going to be different than some of the others. That grant is what makes it allowable for people to make some capital changes in their house to facilitate. If you have a basement in your bungalow that you’re interested in having a home child care centre, then we can help with the cost to make some of those adjustments to make the home meet the guidelines and requirements. It’s been fairly important. I know Pam would have the numbers of how many have been allocated. That’s been quite a useful tool to support families choosing to move in that direction.
THE CHAIR: MLA Timmins with two minutes.
DIANNE TIMMINS: Thank you, everyone, for coming here today on this important initiative. As an MLA in Victoria-The Lakes area, it was a blessing to see child care development in our area as a lot of residents would be travelling quite lengthy distances to the CBRM to access child care. In our area, it is non-profit. Also, there might be some development at home in home base care as well.
My question is: What role do private and non-profit operators both play in meeting child care demands in Nova Scotia?
THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.
TRACEY BARBRICK: Thanks for the question. It’s certainly one that’s had lots of conversation over time. Because I worked in health care for some years, and specifically in continuing care for some years - there are both commercial and non-profit organizations operating in that space. When I came to this department and realized how much conversation this piece gets, it is different contextually that that has garnered a fair amount of attention.
To me, the standards are the same and our licensing requirements are the same and our funding envelope is the same, so our interest is quality care and ensuring that the people who work in the sector are high quality and offering high-quality services to families and children. The federal government took a position that their capital money could not be used in the commercial sector. It was non-profit only. The operating model to increase seats and space is eligible for both, but right now the commercial sector has not been part of the growth plan outside of operating dollars, and it continues that way.
THE CHAIR: Order, please. I apologize.
We’re going to move on to MLA Wozney, please.
PAUL WOZNEY: Earlier this year, we heard from the Red Apple Children’s Centre in Antigonish. They told us that centres still don’t know what the long-term funding will be, which makes it exceedingly difficult to plan for the future. The department, for its part, acknowledges that a new funding model is needed not only to help child care operators stay afloat but also to help lower fees for parents, yet this new funding model wasn’t included in this year’s provincial budget.
My question is to Ms. Wright with Child Care Now Nova Scotia. Without a new funding model in place, what is the risk of daycares closing altogether because they simply can’t keep up with rising costs?
THE CHAIR: Ms. Wright.
KAREN WRIGHT: The piece without the new operational funding model coming through is, as I said earlier, that centres are now going to - and some centres currently are - fundraising just to meet operational costs, as my colleague Susan referred to. Many centres, North End Community Day Care Centre included, have had to go to the department and request operational funding just to meet our day-to-day operational costs. My understanding is that there are more and more centres having to go to the department.
Without coming out with a set amount and a system on how it’s going to work, we’re all piecing everything together - like you’re paying Peter today and robbing Paul, because you don’t have enough money and you don’t have enough understanding of where the money is coming from. The Quality Matters investment grant that we currently use depends on the number of children you currently have enrolled. When you child ages from a toddler to a preschooler, it changes the age and it changes the number of staff you require. Well, you can’t let the staff go for that, so you’re always trying to figure out what your numbers are going to be, how much money is coming in, and what’s going to make the change this month.
A month ago, North End Day Care was not able to utilize one of our staff on the Quality Matters grant for the funding, but we still needed them in the centre. Without coming out with this operational funding piece, the grants are just not making it sustainable for us to keep operating.
PAUL WOZNEY: Thank you for that picture of how this structural piece creates precarity in terms of we have these spots, but they may not be around long if we don’t address this gap in the system.
I want to ask Ms. Gill a question. A lot has been said, and as a former union leader, I applaud efforts to bring people’s wages up to a place where they are liveable. Total compensation is part of the deal. Despite the protestations of the current minister, it’s a good thing when workers are treated well. The NDP and I support that.
Despite salary and benefits and pension, there are still recruitment and retention challenges in the sector. You pointed out that the Province is not funding paid vacation, sick leave, or a substitute system for early childhood educators. Ms. Gill, I’m wondering if you can talk about the absence of these supports for ECEs. What impact is it having on the staff who do the work and the operators who have to try to find and keep these people? What in your mind should the government be doing to address these needs?
THE CHAIR: Ms. Gill, there are three minutes left.
SUSAN GILL: I’ve been bargaining in the child care sector for a pretty long time. I know that might be deceitful at 20 years of age. (Laughter) I have been doing this for a significant amount of time prior to this new funding model. I remember the 15, 17, 19. Unions had committed, through the bargaining process, that we would not - Unifor in particular, I can’t speak for others - we would accept the wage pattern put forward by the government through this sector.
We’re not going to bargain outside the funded amount, but the transition piece from old collective agreements to new collective agreements under this, of course, had greater benefits. Some of my centres might have five sick days, some may amass 15 sick days. Disparity in vacation, five weeks for maybe 20 years’ seniority. None of that is accounted for in the budgets. I remember bargaining recently with one, and what was funded for education, we already had a greater benefit in the collective agreement. Of course, we’re not going to concede that for our members. The wages we will concede, but the overall benefits of the collective agreements, of course we won’t.
None of that is accounted into the budget. Sick days, substitutes, professional development days - if they are greater in collective agreements, it’s a real challenge. I will say, none of my centres that I can speak of have a robust substitute list. They travel between centres. There’s no commitment.
What I find with the wages is the wages are transferrable between centres, and so is the pension piece. With the rollout of the retro and those other things, they’re not transferrable between centres like currently are in the package. It’s really hard to find substitutes. They burn out, they get tired, they don’t have a commitment of a schedule. Operators and directors can’t tell them, “I need you for a week. I’m going to call you in at 7:00 a.m. because somebody called off at 7:30 a.m.”
All these pieces go into it. It’s a real struggle to try to keep a robust substitute list. I do find, even though there has been investment in the sector, there still aren’t a lot of substitutes in the system, so it is a real overall challenge for that.
THE CHAIR: Order, please. We’ll move on to MLA Druhan.
BECKY DRUHAN: Just to close off the question that I asked previously and we spoke a bit about since. In relation to the recent announcement of the expansion of private for-profit centres, you did confirm that the agreement does not allow for that, but can you confirm whether there has been any provincial capital funding, whether from that agreement or from another provincial bucket to support those expansions?
THE CHAIR: Ms. Bussey.
PAM BUSSEY: Our Canada - Nova Scotia Canada-Wide Early Learning and Child Care Agreement does allow funding for existing operators that were in the system when the agreement was signed in 2021. Any of our funding for wages, pensions, benefits, quality initiatives, and so on, all private and not-for-profit operators are eligible for. However, we are not permitted to use any of the Canada-Wide funding for private operator expansion. To date, we have 88 expansion projects that we have approved, and none of those projects are for-profit or private operators.
BECKY DRUHAN: I just want to be sure that I fully understand that there has been no capital funding that’s come under the agreement or that has been approved from the department. For these for-profit operators who’ve expanded, have they received any capital funding grants from the Province, potentially under CCTH or other buckets to support that expansion?
PAM BUSSEY: I can’t speak to another government department, but our Canada-wide agreement or the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development have not provided any capital funding.
[10:30 a.m.]
TRACEY BARBRICK: I think maybe you’re asking if there a provincial capital pot in the department or something, and there’s not. The only capital money has been through the Canada-wide agreement.
BECKY DRUHAN: I’m going to move on to a different topic now. I have heard from child care operators in our area, and I suspect this may be a situation that other operators are facing across the province. They’ve received capital funding, they’ve expanded, they’re working with the department in all other ways to support the growth of the sector. In the case that I’m referring to, they have facilities that are built and just about ready to go, but they can’t hire enough staff.
We’ve talked at length about the variety of ways that the department has worked to expand staffing, for sure, but the issue in this case is the provincial handling of immigration programs. They have staff who are fully trained, who’ve been engaged, who are ready to go, but they can’t get their approvals either under PNP or other immigration pathways. This is a significant impediment because our workforce not only is encouraging local folks, but we also want to ensure that trained folks who are newcomers to the province have the opportunity as well to work in this sector.
I’m wondering if you can speak about what may be being done provincially to ensure that ECEs and child care providers are being prioritized in the immigration processes so that the other investments that are being made to expand the facilities and have programming ready to go aren’t lost because of a lack of staffing.
TRACEY BARBRICK: I’ll step in on the immigration side and then Pam, if there’s any amount of things that have happened to try to fill up and replenish and retain employees in this sector. The immigration reality across Nova Scotia and every other province in terms of the federal cap provided to each province for the three pieces of the pie as it relates to immigration - it’s the temporary foreign workers, international students, and priority work permits. That pie has gotten smaller as the federal government has significantly reduced the pie. The need to establish priorities for post-secondary, temporary foreign workers, and priority workforces has certainly been an issue and a challenge that the Province is working within. Between health care workers, skilled trades, and child care, there are a lot of demands for international talent, and the pie has gotten super small.
I know that my colleagues at the Department of Labour, Skills and Immigration are working hard through the priority work permits to make some really tough decisions on those priority areas.
THE CHAIR: MLA Druhan with two-and-a-half minutes.
BECKY DRUHAN: I do appreciate that is a challenge. I think, though, I would say in relation to this the same thing I said in relation to the commitment to reaching $10-a-day child care, which is that government does need to make priorities. We have heard over and over again that economic development is a priority, and foundational to that is child care, which supports the workforce. Recognize the need to have health care and the need to have skilled trades workers, but if there is no child care to enable them to be in the workforce, then having them here and ready to go isn’t enough.
I think that this is a conversation that’s important to have, and I’ll continue to have with the ministers and Cabinet in terms of what gets prioritized, because I think this is really foundational and crucial to all of the objectives that government is speaking about.
I think I only have a moment or two left and I just want to turn our attention again to the engagement table. I spoke earlier about the importance of that. I was very committed to being present at that table for a bunch of reasons. The value that the table provided in terms of their expertise, skill and knowledge in guiding and advising on the transformation work, can’t be overstated.
Also, one of the things that needs to happen when you have a transformation this big - which is going to be challenging even if everybody is behind it - is that relationship development and ensuring that people have confidence in the direction that folks are going in. For those and many other reasons, it was always important to me to be there. I found it personally valuable and we worked through some really challenging moments and had some really heartwarming moments.
I’ve heard from folks at the table that they’ve been disappointed that the current minister has not been present for most of the meetings. I’m running out of time here, but I’d really like to know from this sector what impacts that is having, the lack of engagement from the minister at that table. If they could speak to that, that would be appreciated.
THE CHAIR: Unfortunately, there are five seconds, so we will move on. Perhaps you can follow up in another way on that question. MLA Taggart.
TOM TAGGART: Thanks, everyone, for coming in and being part of this today. I think my question will end up being for Deputy Minister Barbrick. The mandate of this committee is typically value for money for programs that have been audited by the Auditor General. This is not one of them. Often when we don’t have one of those subjects coming up, we look for a valuable and important issue, and it comes to this committee. A lot of discussions here have been about advocacy and how to make a program better. I think that’s great to have those kinds of ideas and issues brought forward for folks to consider.
Back to the fundamental mandate of this committee, which is value for money, I’m wondering if Deputy Minister Barbrick could speak a little bit about the value for money of this particular program and the money invested by both Nova Scotia and Ottawa in this child care initiative.
THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.
TRACEY BARBRICK: There are multiple reports that have been published by different organizations around the economic value of having families being able to have two incomes, children being able to be set up for success, and particularly women being able to participate in the workforce. You’re always challenged with the attribution. There is no doubt that the women participation in the workforce has increased since this investment in child care. I think Pam has some of those numbers.
The lived experience of what you hear from all your families and your communities is the value of being able to have two working parents or a working single mom in many cases, and being able to be participate in the workforce and have affordable child care that has some subsidy options there for household families under $70,000, and as well, the overall contribution to affordable child care is a game-changer for so many families.
I’m going to ask Pam to fill in some gaps because I know she’s got some information there in front of her.
THE CHAIR: Ms. Bussey.
PAM BUSSEY: When we talk about value for money, just looking over the last five years of what’s been invested in early learning and child care in Nova Scotia, $390 million in early childhood educator compensation. Those are funds that go directly to the thousands of early childhood educators who work across this province and provide amazing high quality care to our youngest Nova Scotians every single day; $343 million directly reducing the fees that families pay, saving families thousands of dollars every year, that allows them to then use those funds to meet other household expenses that they have; $33 million in education and training, meaning that hundreds of individuals get to have attended school and come out with diplomas or degree programs without owing any debt because of the funding that’s been provided underneath the Canada - Nova Scotia Canada-Wide Early Learning and Child Care Agreement.
Certainly, the investments that have been made and the value for money being demonstrated that this is having more meaningful impact on Nova Scotian children and families every single day.
THE CHAIR: MLA Timmins.
DIANNE TIMMINS: We at this table in the rural communities realize the challenges they face to develop day care spaces and to assist with low-income families on the ability to be able to access this and to go back to work - whether it’s in tourism, whether it’s in the fisheries, whether it’s in other aspects of the economy and to be part of the working class. My question to the department is kind of two-tier: Can you speak of the challenges that happen in rural communities, as well as the benefits or how you contribute to low-income families to be able to access these services?
THE CHAIR: Ms. Bussey.
PAM BUSSEY: Certainly, over the course of our child care transformation, we’ve experienced added challenges with some rural areas. Many areas of the province, when we started, had significantly few child care spaces than what families were looking for. However, 33 percent of our infrastructure expansion projects have been in rural areas of the province where about 30 percent of the population lives. About 52 percent of family home child care providers are in rural Nova Scotia, and they are a very important part of our child care transformation. They can be established quite quickly, and in small, rural communities, where the population might not exist to be able to sustain a larger-scale child care centre, they’re a really important part of our strategy.
In addition, there’s been tremendous growth in our Nova Scotia before- and afterschool program in rural communities; 67 percent of our Nova Scotia-backed spaces are in rural communities. Again, there’s obviously universal access to education, but having those wraparound before- and afterschool spaces are really critical to enabling labour market participation and child care for those families.
I will say, there are some continued workforce challenges in some rural pockets of Nova Scotia. We graduated over 500 ECEs last year across the province. We’re very mindful of the growth and making sure that we have programs that are offered across the province to keep up as our expansion and natural turnover happens is very important.
We have a virtual early childhood educator diploma program with NSCC. That’s been very important for rural communities. In addition, we have a mechanism where staff can be hired. We have a high standard for trained early childhood educators. Two-thirds of individuals who work in a centre with children need to be early childhood educators.
Sometimes that can be challenging to meet, so part of that might be the virtual ECE diploma program. There are also temporary staffing plans that can be put in place that as long as there’s safety being met, and there’s certainly a level of early childhood educators that are there to make sure that quality exists, there’s time that can be allowed for individuals to be employed while also pursuing an ECE Level 1, 2, or 3 classification.
Lastly, the one thing I’ll mention around expansion is around the cost. Certainly, 88 expansion projects across the province - those are just infrastructure-related projects, of which 33 percent have been in rural areas. There are some added challenges that come with that, particularly when we look at septic systems, added costs of that, added costs of adding sprinklers for infant care. When we’re looking at retrofitting buildings, it’s funny what you think you know until you take down a wall or you start digging a hole and you find a well.
We’ve had many experiences where child care projects, rural or urban, have been delayed because of things that are uncovered, but that’s pretty characteristic of most construction that’s happening right now, whether it’s the cost or delays or difficulties finding skilled trades.
What I will say is that we’re extremely grateful to all of our child care partners who have worked with us in creating child care. We’ve always found solutions. We’ve always worked hand-in-hand when those circumstances arise, for us to find ways of looking at additional funding that might be available or partnering with other organizations that can help out there. That has been largely due to the amazing commitment of operators across the province in creating child care where it’s needed most.
[10:45 a.m.]
THE CHAIR: Order, please. That concludes our time for questions. Because our opening comments went a little bit over time, we don’t actually have time for closing comments. I will thank all of you for being here - it’s been a great discussion - and say that you are free to go. I would imagine there is some media who may want to speak with you.
We will take a one-minute recess while our guests leave, and then we’ll come back to the table. We have a lot of committee business to look at. Thank you.
[10:46 a.m. The committee recessed.]
[10:48 a.m. The committee reconvened.]
THE CHAIR: Order please. We’re coming back to order.
We have a number of committee business things to attend to. The first one is correspondence. There is a letter, I believe, in your package that is from HRC Innovations with a request to appear. We have had this letter in front of us before, and I had suggested at the time - I think it was the February 18th meeting - that perhaps we send it to another or we advise that another committee look at their request for appearance, but at the time no one commented. I made a note to - no, you made a note. Just a minute. They’re following up again. HRC is following up, and I would like to see if we can make a clear decision on what to do or what committee to suggest that we send this request to. Could we open the floor for discussion on that letter? Do you have your hand up?
MLA Taggart, please.
TOM TAGGART: I absolutely agree with you. It doesn’t really have any place here. Like we said, we’re supposed to be a value-for-money sort of thing. The Natural Resources and Economic Development Committee is probably the place for it to go; I’m Chair of the Natural Resources and Economic Development Committee. I’ve not had a meeting with an opportunity to discuss it at the committee as yet, so it’ll be something that the committee will make a decision on. Somebody will have to put it forward as a recommended topic during topic selection. It’s my view that it belongs at the Natural Resources and Economic Development Committee. Whether or not it gets determined as a topic would be up to that committee.
THE CHAIR: I believe there’s an agenda-setting coming up for Natural Resources and Economic Development Committee, correct? Okay, that’s right. Could you just make a motion that we defer the request to and Economic Development Committee?
TOM TAGGART: I move that we defer this request to the Natural Resources and Economic Development Committee and they will deal with it in their accepted fashion.
THE CHAIR: There’s a motion on the floor. Is there any discussion?
All those in favour? Contrary minded? Thank you.
The motion is carried.
We also had information sent to us that was requested from the October 22, 2025 meeting from the Department of Growth and Development. Is there any discussion on that correspondence? Seeing none, we’ll move on.
Next is an informal meeting invitation from the Office of the Auditor General. This is especially timely, actually, because we have some new members. You’ll see the letter from the Auditor General here. Basically there’s been a practice for the last couple of years for Public Accounts Committee members to have an informal lunch with the Auditor General a couple of times a year so that we can discuss the functioning of the committee and different issues that might be coming up. The Auditor General has suggested that we do one in June. She’s put forward three dates: June 16th, 17th, and 18th. June 17th we do have a meeting, which will be coming up in a second. In my opinion, it might be good to do it following that meeting, since we’re all here anyway. Everyone in agreement with that idea?
MLA Druhan.
BECKY DRUHAN: Just wanted to point out, I think that is the Lieutenant Governor’s garden party day as well, which we often attend. I don’t know if there’s time between the two to enable that.
THE CHAIR: I believe the garden party starts at 2:00 p.m., so this would be directly following the meeting. It would be around 11:30 a.m. It should be fine. It’s usually an hour and a half or so. If that’s fine, we’ll have to wear our fancy clothes and bonnets to the meeting with the Auditor General.
Next is the June meeting schedule. At the last meeting, we discussed that we had to reschedule the June 17th meeting because the PC caucus was going to have an out-of-town caucus meeting, but that has been rescheduled. That means we don’t need to reschedule our June 17th meeting, and it will proceed as before. It will be the last meeting before the summer break. We’ll meet on June 17th, have our meeting with the Auditor General, then go to the garden party.
Lastly in committee business, there’s the subcommittee membership. As you know, we’ve had a change in members. MLA Mombourquette was a member of the subcommittee and he’s no longer a member of PAC, so a new member from the third party will need to be appointed. We have been advised that MLA Rankin will be the representative of the third party on the subcommittee. Do we need to do an official motion for that? No. MLA Rankin will be on the subcommittee; however, today in subcommittee, because we have a subcommittee meeting after this meeting, MLA Druhan will be filling in.
Great. That’s it. The next meeting will be June 10th, and the topic is the Department of Finance and Treasury Board and the Department of Service Nova Scotia regarding the Additional Appropriations and Alternative Procurement report from the Auditor General. Is there any other business? MLA Taggart.
TOM TAGGART: Is that the open session where the witnesses are here? Okay. (Interruption)
THE CHAIR: Is there any other business? Okay, great. Thank you very much. We will adjourn the meeting.
[The committee adjourned at 10:55 a.m.]
