HANSARD

NOVA SCOTIA HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE

ON

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

Wednesday, November 12, 2025

COMMITTEE ROOM

Rent Supplements: Canada Housing Benefit

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
 

Public Accounts Committee

Susan Leblanc (Chair)

Marco MacLeod (Vice-Chair)

Hon. Brian Wong

Tom Taggart

Tim Outhit

Dianne Timmins

Lisa Lachance

Hon. Iain Rankin

Hon. Derek Mombourquette

[Tom Taggart was replaced by Kyle MacQuarrie.]

[Lisa Lachance was replaced by Claudia Chender.]

In Attendance:

Kim Adair
Auditor General

Kim Langille

Committee Clerk

Gordon Hebb

Chief Legislative Counsel


 

WITNESSES

Department of Growth and Development

Chris Morrissey - Deputy Minister

Vicki Elliott-Lopez - Associate Deputy Minister and Interim CEO Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency

Michelle Waye - Executive Director, Housing Programs and Services

Pam Menchenton - Executive Director, Client Services, Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency

Adsum for Women & Children

Meghan Hansford, PhD - Housing Support Program Manager

Sheri Lecker - Executive Director

HALIFAX, WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 12, 2025

STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

9:03 A.M.

CHAIR

Susan Leblanc

VICE-CHAIR

Marco MacLeod

THE CHAIR (Marco MacLeod): Order, please. Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Public Accounts Committee.

The Public Accounts Committee is established for the purpose of reviewing the public accounts, the annual report or other report of the Auditor General and any other financial matters respecting the public funds of the Province.

My name is Marco MacLeod. I’m the MLA for Pictou West, and I’m the Vice-Chair of the committee. I’d like to remind everyone to please put your phones on silent. Should there be a need to leave the building, we’ll exit the building through the doors to Granville Street, and then we’ll gather at the Grand Parade. I will now ask the members of the committee to introduce themselves, starting with the member to my left.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

THE CHAIR: Also with us today we have officials from the Office of the Auditor General, the Legislative Counsel Office, and the Legislative Committees Office. They’re also in attendance.

On today’s agenda, we have officials with us from the Department of Growth and Development and Adsum for Women and Children to discuss Rent Supplements: Canada Housing Benefit. I’ll now ask the witnesses to introduce themselves, starting on my left.

[The witnesses introduced themselves.]

THE CHAIR: I will now ask Deputy Minister Morrissey for some opening remarks, if he pleases.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: Good morning, everyone. Thank you for the opportunity to be here alongside my colleagues to discuss the Canada Housing Benefit, otherwise known as rent supplements.

I want to thank Adsum for Women and Children for being such a valued partner in addressing our housing challenges. The work you do supporting women and gender-diverse individuals, especially during emergency situations, is critical.

This work cannot be done in a silo. It is an all-hands-on deck approach spanning all three levels of government, private development, the community housing sector, and our valued stakeholders like Adsum for Women and Children. As part of that collaborative focus, the Department of Growth and Development works to drive economic growth and productivity by creating the conditions for communities, businesses, and households to thrive.

When our economy is strong, we are better positioned to respond to our housing needs. In turn, when people have housing security, they can better contribute to the economy. The work we do to grow the economy and ensure that every Nova Scotian has a place to call home is interconnected in so many ways. That is why the aligned focus for our department is critical.

Our vision for the future is clear: Nova Scotians have access to safe, affordable housing that meets their diverse needs. The rent supplement program is a big part of that spectrum of support and services available for people in immediate need. We know rent supplements help make life more affordable for Nova Scotians. That is why we are focused on making sure people and families who are in the deepest housing need have access to the program. In the last several years, we’ve quadrupled our investment in the program to $74 million, helping thousands more Nova Scotians each year. In fact, last year we helped 12,000 unique households.

We know this program is critical for helping people in housing need right now while more stock is being built, and we are continuously looking at ways to enhance and improve this program and many other programs, such as lobbying the federal government to match our needs so we can help as many people as possible.

But like I said, rent supplements are just one piece of the very large puzzle, albeit a very important piece. There is much more to the story - for example, our partnership with the community housing sector. Since 2021, the government has invested $283 million in the community housing sector, creating or preserving more than 3,000 affordable and deeply affordable homes.

I’m also pleased to have some of the staff here from the Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency, as they, too, are an important part of our generational housing work. For the first time in more than 30 years, we are building 515 new public housing units that will help 1,300 individuals and families. The agency is also hard at work making significant policy changes to reduce wait times. Within the first two years of our five-year housing plan, we created conditions for 68,000 new units. That is more than 167 percent of our five-year goal.

Every Nova Scotian deserves a safe place to call home. We are truly Team Nova Scotia when it comes to making this happen.

THE CHAIR (Susan Leblanc): Thank you very much, Deputy Minister Morrissey.

Good morning, everyone. I’m Susan Leblanc, the Chair of the committee. I was late. I apologize.

I was wondering if Dr. Hansford or Ms. Lecker would like to make any opening remarks.

Dr. Hansford.

DR. MEGHAN HANSFORD: Thank you for the opportunity to speak today. The conversations that we’re having today are not simply about rent supplements or housing strategies. They are about public health, equity, and the well-being of people across Nova Scotia.

The housing crisis is deepening. For women, children, families, and others we are privileged to serve, this crisis is urgent. Rising rents, limited supply, and complex eligibility requirements are leaving too many without safe, stable homes. For families experiencing homelessness or violence, these barriers can mean the difference between children being apprehended or families being able to remain together.

Homelessness is a short-term economic problem. People are highly motivated to get out of homelessness. Keep in mind that every chronically homeless person starts off as short-term homeless. This is where we need to be investing for intervention.

Public housing and the rent supplement program were designed to be a safety net, but access remains constricted and limited. At present, limited unit availability, excessive documentation requirements, and the need for applicants to have an assigned support worker to gain priority designation and a third-party rent supplement bridge funding contribute to significant delays and system inequity. They are falling short of the nimble response required to ensure immediate safety - and individuals and non-profits are paying the price.

For individuals who are applying independently, the average wait time for a rent supplement is eight-to- twelve weeks. With a designated housing support workers attached to the file, the processing time is two weeks if everything runs smoothly, which is rarely the case given the barriers and the documentations needed. These delays are consequential. Under the amended Residential Tenancies Act, landlords can file for eviction after just eight days of late rent. That means some Nova Scotians are being evicted through no fault of their own before their approved subsidy can even take effect.

Landlords who we have historically partnered with are also expressing frustration with some indicating that they cannot accept the risk that comes with rent supplements. At Adsum Women & Children, we work closely with our colleagues at the Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency, the rent supplement program, and the homelessness response team at OSD to improve coordination and prioritization. These efforts and partnerships and have made a difference, but the system still remains under strain. We must build a more coordinated, client-centred system with co-operation across all departments, one that prioritizes safety, preserves dignity, and reduces red tape.

Today, we’re here to discuss rent supplements specifically. Rent supplements alone will not end homelessness or the affordability crisis, but they can be part of a stronger, integrated, diversified strategy that recognizes housing as a human right and ensures that every child, family, and individual has access to a safe, affordable home. I’m glad to hear that we are all on the same page in working toward that goal because together through collaboration and shared accountability, we can make that vision a reality and build a system that ensures every Nova Scotian has a place to call home.

THE CHAIR: Thank you very much. Ms. Lecker, please.

SHERI LECKER: Good morning and thank you for inviting Adsum to appear at today’s meeting.

While rent supplements are helpful for many, as we’ve already heard, the rental market in Nova Scotia simply does not have an inventory of truly affordable units. Even as I say “truly affordable,” we know that term can mean different things. We need a consistent definition of what constitutes “affordable housing” and for whom. The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, along with many organizations, including ours, consider less than 30 percent of a household’s pre-tax income to be “affordable.” It’s not the same as “below market housing,” which is delivered by the private sector and often called affordable, and often in exchange for various incentives including access to public land and tax breaks. Even at 20 percent below market rates, a $2,500 unit offered at $2,000 a month would still not be affordable to thousands of households.

[9:15 a.m.]

We have a lot of catching up to do. A recent study by The Federal Housing Advocate recommends that fully one-third of new supply must be non-market for low- and very-low-income households at rents that are regulated. We cannot rely on the private sector alone to create the scale and type of housing that’s required to address this deficit in affordable housing. Non-market housing must be prioritized with particular attention to units priced using the rent-geared-to-income formula, It has proven to create housing stability, improved health, increased quality of life, and safety for many people.

As a Province and as a society, we must also invest in universal changes, not only targeted ones, that focus on prevention of homelessness and instability, such as increasing minimum wages to liveable levels and the income assistance rates that provide for basic needs. Too many Nova Scotians are having to choose between paying rent and heating their units, or heating, but skipping meals and medication.

In our discussions today, I hope we are able to help this committee and our government understand that people need more money to realize their basic human rights.

We’re happy to take any questions about our experiences as both housing and service providers, and what we know can make life better for all Nova Scotians.

THE CHAIR: We’ll begin with our first round of questions with MLA Chender, please.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Thank you all for being here today. I have a bunch of questions for all of you. I’m going to start with the Department of Growth and Development, but I want to in particular thank Adsum for being here to bring lived experience into this conversation. I think that’s the most important part of what we’re talking about.

We are here talking about rent supplements. When we were in Budget Estimates last March, the minister said that half of the 16,200 new affordable homes created, according to the government’s metrics, were actually just rent supplements. That’s 8,000 homes on paper that aren’t homes at all; they’re a subsidy. I want to take this opportunity, although I know it’s been a few months, to ask - I’ll point this to you, Deputy Minister, and you can ask if there’s someone better to answer it: Why are temporary rent supplements being counted as permanent affordable housing in the government’s metrics?

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Morrissey.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: I’ll have to go to see what exactly was said last March. As you know, I was not around last March to interpret that particular data. What I do know is that the amount of money being invested right now into rent supplements is quite significant. We are opening up more opportunities for people to create more affordable homes or affordable opportunities for people to have homes and make sure their heads can be on pillows every single night. I’ll just refer to my Associate Deputy Minister to see if there are some more details specific to the budget last March, to see if we can give a little bit more context with respect to that comment.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Chender, do you want to hear from the Associate Deputy Minister?

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Maybe I’ll just add a clarifying question - Ms. Elliott-Lopez, I always like to hear from you. I’ll just latch on to what you said. I think there’s a difference between creating an opportunity for someone to affordably live in a home and creating an affordable home. Those are two very different things. This is a government that says the answer to the housing crisis is to build more housing, but rent supplements don’t build housing. I just want to clarify that my question is: Why is it being counted as housing, if it still is, and wouldn’t it make more sense to separate those statistics so we can understand, to Ms. Lecker’s point, what the genuinely affordable supply is that’s actually being created in the system that’s new?

THE CHAIR: Ms. Elliott-Lopez.

VICKI ELLIOTT-LOPEZ: One of the key pillars of our five-year housing action plan is to make 17,000 units more affordable. We can do that through a number of ways: by buying affordability in new construction through our Affordable Housing Development Program; we can do that through our Community Housing Acquisition Program; or we can do that through rent supplements. Rent supplements, as the deputy minister said, have grown substantially over the last number of years. We are contributing $5 to $1 - the provincial government versus the federal government. We currently have over 9,500 active rent supplements, and it does make life affordable for Nova Scotians.

We do not evict people from the homes who are acquiring rent supplements. We’ve talked to colleagues in other provinces and territories. They have time limits on the rent supplements. We do not. As we work to create more stock, which we know takes time, it’s important that we have that there for Nova Scotians until we get more housing stock available. That said, we know there are thousands of supportive housing units being created. There is more investment in shelters right along the continuum. Rent supplement is a key priority for making life more affordable for Nova Scotians along that housing continuum.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I didn’t hear an answer to my question. I’m just going to leave it there and say that a shelter is not a home; a rent supplement is not a home. I think it’s important that we’re talking about rent supplements and affordability, but I also want to poke at the tens of millions of dollars we’re spending on this program. This isn’t a committee meeting about supply, but to Ms. Lecker’s point, we need a huge amount more supply that is affordable and available to the majority of Nova Scotians. The supply that’s being built right now, I would argue, in large part is not.

We have proposed a number of other solutions that we believe would keep people in that affordable supply and keep that supply affordable. One of those would be closing the fixed-term lease loophole. That would preserve affordability. That would keep people paying an affordable rent.

Has the department looked into how much money that kind of rent control - making the rent cap actually work - would cost the government?
 

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Morrissey.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: I’ll start, and then I may refer back to my colleagues on this as well - either the Associate Deputy Minister or also Pam from the Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency may respond on fixed-term leases for public units, which she can speak to as well.

We look at many different programs and we’re seeking advice from many different partners like Adsum for Women & Children and many, many others. The selection of programs we look at and evaluate, even the existing ones, are ongoing. I don’t think anything’s off the table with respect to programs. If there are good suggestions that come from the public, from tenants, or from elected officials at any level of government, I think we’re prepared to listen and evaluate to see what we can do with the limited amount of resources we do have, whether that’s money or people or current housing stock.

There is a lot of selection currently within the portfolio of programs that we do have, creating new inventory such as the 515 units through the Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency as well that will come online in the next couple of years. It’s very, very important. Also, making sure that we have other programs like our Housing Repair Program to make sure people are keeping their houses and homes safe and warm - that’s another program.

The selection of programs is vast. As we look at different programs, we also go, “Are they working? Are they getting to the intended clients we want to get to or not, and if not, let’s reevaluate and look at other programs.” We always welcome suggestions from anybody to see what we can do to improve the lives of Nova Scotians in general.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Again, my question is in particular around fixed-term leases. It costs the government nothing to close the fixed-term lease loophole; specifically, the cost to the government of doing this is zero. I know that at a committee meeting in May, the Deputy Minister of Service Nova Scotia, in fact, did say that he was aware that these leases were being used inappropriately.

My question is: If we’re aware of this issue, if we’re trying to overturn every stone, and if we have a solution that does not cost the government money at a time when the belt is tightening, so speak, why has it not been addressed?

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Morrissey, and I will ask our witnesses, respectfully, to try to directly answer the questions that are being asked. A couple of times now, questions have been asked but answers are not addressing those questions. Thank you.

Deputy Minister Morrissey.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: Understood, thank you. I’ll refer maybe to the Associate Deputy Minister to maybe give a little bit more context specifically on your question.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Elliott-Lopez, please.

VICKI ELLIOTT-LOPEZ: When we think about fixed-term leases and how long they’ve been around, they really only have come up in the media and in the public in the last few years as we’ve started to face major housing challenges. We know that the answer to affordability - and it’s been said here - is to increase stock. If there are a lot of rental units on the market and landlords start to have to compete for renters, then we’d like to see them not be using fixed-term leases, because as soon as they use fixed-term leases in that kind of way that you’re describing, somebody’s going to say, “I don’t have to live here if you’re going to increase my rent that much,” and there will be more competition within the market.

We are focused right now on addressing affordability through increased supply. We’ve seen the vacancy rate increase to about 2 percent. We suspect that’s going to continue to go higher. We’ve seen landlords start to offer incentives to try to get people in. We see that competition coming back into the marketplace. That’s our goal to address the issue.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I would suggest that the government’s ignoring a really important tool. Recently in their survey, Dalhousie Legal Aid Service estimated that over 50 percent of leases right now are on a fixed term. That fixed term essentially nullifies any efforts at a rent cap or rent stability in the market while supply is coming online. Further, that 2 percent does not apply to units that are actually affordable for people. Incentives are being offered in tall towers with marble countertops and beautiful views that went on the market at $5,000 that nobody can afford.

I have suggested it in every way I know how and I will continue to, that this is something the government would look at. I guess I want to put this to Adsum and Ms. Lecker or Dr. Hansford, whomever would like to reply. We know that as rents climb, demand for these supplements is increasing. My question is: What do you see as a solution that could help with the availability of units for the women and children who you work with? I know that you have some - and we can talk about that after - but when you’re looking at the rental market, are you seeing availability? Are you seeing the opportunity for initiative from government that could keep those prices down and make those units available?

THE CHAIR: Ms. Lecker.

SHERI LECKER: I can’t answer that question without also talking about non-market housing because that is actually where you end up with housing that is affordable in perpetuity. If I just look at our own experience, we built housing in 1987. The only provincial money that ever went into that location was $250,000 almost 40 years ago. That housing is affordable in perpetuity, and some of the tenants have lived there in excess of 10 and 20 years.

If I look at another location, the Sunflower, less than a million dollars from provincial government money was invested there. Many families - there are about 50 people living there. Most have been there for the three years it’s been open, so we’re talking about less than $1 million investment. That housing is affordable in perpetuity, and when I talk about affordable, I mean 30 percent of gross pre-tax household income. A family on income assistance with a three-bedroom unit is currently paying about $321 a month and that includes utilities. There’s nowhere that you’re going to find that in the private market.

That family who’s living with us in a three-bedroom unit, maybe they’d go to Dartmouth and maybe they would find something for $2,400. That would be considered kind of affordable because with the rent supplement, they would receive almost enough to pay their rent; they’d receive $2,262 a month, not including utilities. It’s not quite affordable, but it’s almost. Maybe something could come from a food budget or come from somewhere else - from their child tax. Think about - and this speaks to your question - think about what happens after a year. If they’re on a fixed-term lease, they’re probably going to be bounced. They might not be, but if they’re not, the rent’s going to go up by 5 percent which is the cap. Where do they find the 5 percent if their income was already insufficient together with the rent supplement?

I know that’s a lot of numbers, but I think it demonstrates that investment in non-market housing in perpetuity is the answer. I recognize that it doesn’t come online overnight, but it’s not about one or the other. We’ve got to be working on the long-term, or the other is just going to be - the long-term investment in permanent housing, this is all going to cost so much more 5 and 10 years down the road. It’s also going to cost, of course, in terms of people’s health, their education, and their ability to engage in their communities and stay in their traditional neighbourhoods.

[9:30 a.m.]

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I appreciate that. There’re a million places that we could take that. We know that Halifax has lost 8,000 affordable homes between 2016 and 2021. That’s a huge number: 31 affordable housing options gone each week for five years. We know, as you’ve said, that finding an apartment that’s affordable, even with the rent supplements, can be deeply challenging.

I wonder, just to probe a little bit more - I think those percentages are important. When this targeted housing benefit was announced, it was eligible if you were spending more than 30 percent, which is the rent geared to income that you were talking about. Then it was only available to those spending 50 percent. I know in our constituency offices, and certainly, you guys are on the front lines, would have heard the challenge that created. Now it’s reverted to 40 percent, but I think you would be really well-positioned to tell the committee what the impact is on a family of having to spend 40 percent of your income on rent and what that means in terms of the choices you alluded to around paying the power bill, child care, food costs, and medication.

THE CHAIR: Dr. Hansford.

MEGHAN HANSFORD: I think that question is a critical one, and one that actually all Nova Scotians will resonate with. We’ve invented a program, actually, just to solve some of those gaps that people are finding in their income where something has to give, whether that is you’re trying to pay your increasing utility costs, which we know are also due to go up, the cost of living, food, and rent - things that people are always competing around. We’ve created a program called Housing Advocacy and Eviction Prevention, which provides people with one-time supports so that people don’t have to constantly fight to be able to cover those different expenses.

The reality is that the impact on families means there are more interventions in terms of child and family well-being and child protection, with schools - it has impacts on kids’ education - health impacts, for people to be able to decide between paying their rent or critical medications. These are real decisions people fighting every day and are coming to us for support. We are trying to fill those gaps in the ways that we can in order to keep people housed and healthy and support their well-being. These are all long-term problems that will have significant consequences for many people across Nova Scotia.

THE CHAIR: MLA Chender with three minutes.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: My understanding is that Adsum is one of the many organizations that is filling the gaps financially in these kinds of situations in terms of bridging the gaps for folks who have applied for a supplement in the order of tens of thousands of dollars. I want to ask the department: Is this an appropriate use of frontline service providers? Shouldn’t we have a program so that people who can’t afford housing, which many people can’t in today’s market - that government can help navigate and support those housing options without frontline service providers having to step in and literally stop landlords from evicting while they wait for government programs to come through?

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Morrissey.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: I think through our community partners - many different people want to approach different partners, whether that’s government, whether that’s the local community partner, whether that’s a non-profit, whether that’s people coming directly to your offices. I think we’re prepared to deal with whoever has the first opportunity to deal with whatever crises people may be under, and if they feel comfortable approaching the department, we’ll certainly address some of the concerns that they may have. If they’re more comfortable going to a non-profit organization because they have a relationship there in the local community, we welcome that as well.

No one organization is going to fix the housing crisis. I think that’s well established. No one level of government is going to fix this problem. That’s why working with all levels of government, with all community partners, whether they’re in the housing sector, whether they’re in other sectors that are just helping out in the community - it’s really important for us to have those touch-points. I think if you look at the number of non-profits we’re dealing with and working with - some, I would scratch my head and ask, “Okay, is that the business they should be in?” But they’re being really innovative. They’re looking at different ways of trying to partner and leverage money. Bringing those additional resources to the table is really critical for us.

The government will not have all the money to fix all of the problems. We are here to help assist and leverage wherever we can. Leveraging the relationship, leveraging the resources, and leveraging the contacts in the community are really critical, I think, to all of our success. All ships will rise if we all work together.

THE CHAIR: MLA Chender with 20 seconds.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I would suggest that government programs don’t meet the need and are too slow, and that it’s not about conversations. It’s about banging-your-head-against-the-wall advocacy that frontline organizations and MLA offices and other do, and the expense is paid by women and families and children across this province who are precariously housed.

THE CHAIR: Order, please. We will continue questions with MLA Rankin.

HON. IAIN RANKIN: Since we’re talking about the capacity and the delays within the subsidy and the rent supplements, I’ll continue with that theme. We often hear - and this isn’t just with respect to housing - government saying, “We’re putting in so many more millions. We’re putting in so much more.” But this committee - really, the mandate is about the effective delivery of services, and clearly this is an area where there’s a huge gap and room for improvement. We have Adsum saying that they’re spending over $77,000 of their own funds covering rent supplement delays. This is Nova Scotian money that’s donated to a non-profit that they want spent to help low-income families. When we see Nova Scotians waiting weeks for relief, particularly victims of gender-based violence - I think that is a big issue.

The department has stated a goal of ensuring that they are processed within one or two weeks. I want to ask the department: Can you confirm how many rent supplement applications are currently delayed beyond that stated one-to-two-week processing goal?

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Morrissey.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: I’ll look over to my left shoulder to see if the Associate Deputy Minister can give you the specific number - or somebody else down the line here. It looks like Michelle may be able to do that.

We are constantly looking at our programs and looking at ways of improving the programs, just to qualify it, though. Wait times have decreased dramatically. We’re working together with our community partners on trying to decrease them as best we can.

Michelle, do you have something?

THE CHAIR: Ms. Way.

MICHELLE WAYE: Reliance on our community partners is essential in delivering this program. We recognize that there is always room for improvement, especially when clients are facing delays in receiving their subsidy.

I believe it’s the diversion funding that this is referring to - we are aware that there are delays with getting proper documentation in from clients and that community partners have had to use diversion funding to cover that gap. We have addressed delays and we are having proactive conversations with all of our stakeholder groups, including Adsum, on better ways to improve the communication gaps between the providers and the program staff, in ensuring that these delays are not negatively affecting tenants. We recognize that there’s an issue. We want to improve the communications.

With the amount that are above the two weeks, with regards to the priority access - I’ll have to come back with a specific figure on that. I will say that our processing times have come down from months to now we’re processing regular rent supplement applications within 10 to 12 weeks. There is a higher turnaround time with the priority applications - or a quicker turnaround time - but we have lowered the processing times for all of our rent supplements over the past few years.

I think it’s essential to state that. Having open communication with our partner groups, with our stakeholders, is important. That’s how we get feedback. That’s how we can have open conversations about ways we can improve the process and the processing times on our end.

IAIN RANKIN: Can you point to ways that you have improved? I guess we’ll take at face value that there have been some improvements. What specific administrative or staffing gaps have you been able to help with persistent delays? I think the important question, with limited time, is: Does the department reimburse or compensate non-profits that are stretched with any kind of bridge funding, or is this under consideration? We’re looking at a process that has been delayed possibly because of administrative gaps within the government itself. This is an area where we would hope that there is some bridge funding that can be paid to non-profits that are obviously very valued, as you all have said.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Elliott-Lopez.

VICKI ELLIOTT-LOPEZ: Yes. The Department of Opportunities and Social Development, I believe, has a partnership with organizations to help support the diversion funds. With regard to improvements, I would say since coming onboard myself in 2021, I’ve seen significant improvements across the board. One I think we herald as a huge coup is strengthening our relationship with our service provider partnerships. We meet with them very regularly, particularly under the Survivors of Gender-based Violence Benefit. We’ve improved our program policies substantially.

The creation of our Survivors of Gender-based Violence Benefit was done in tandem. We took several months of working with our partners to create that program to ensure that it took a trauma-informed approach and met the needs of the clients. In addition to that, to Michelle’s point, we’ve reduced our processing times. They were several months back in 2021. Understanding that this program grew overnight - it went from a few million dollars to now $74 million. We were serving 3,000 households and now we’re serving 9,500 at any given time with about a 20 percent attrition rate.

We have also changed policies to support more households. People were being over-subsidized, meaning they were actually getting more than their actual rent because it was all based on average market rent. Now, because of that change in policy, we’re able to support about 1,000 more households through our program. Being able to serve more clients, faster, is absolutely our goal.

We changed the seniors benefit. Eligibility was based on 95 percent of AMR; we increased that to align with everyone else. We’re making more senior households eligible and they’re seeing more money coming through their subsidy. We centralized intake and prioritization. That was huge. Depending on the region that you were being delivered services in, it was very dependent on your wait time. Now, we’re seeing through centralized intake and processing those wait times flatter right across the province and being processed much faster.

We’ve recently made changes to the Survivors of Gender-based Violence. Previously, the program only allowed resettled refugees, and now we offer the Survivors of Gender-based Violence to refugees as well. The objective of the program is to help someone flee a violent situation. It shouldn’t matter who you are or where you are from. That’s the purpose of the program. We changed that policy to support those folks as well, and we extended the benefit to homeowners. Again, if you’re a homeowner, it doesn’t matter. You may be paying a mortgage or you may be paying rent, so we changed that policy recently too. Now, through that benefit program, people who are homeowners can access the program to help them pay their mortgage as well.

IAIN RANKIN: Was the answer yes, you are compensating the non-profits that have spent - overspent because of the delays provincially?

VICKI ELLIOTT-LOPEZ: Do you want to take it?

IAIN RANKIN: Maybe I can ask the non-profit that’s here and see if we can get an answer.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Lecker.

SHERI LECKER: We were asked this question just last week. We have a variety of pots of funds specifically to bridge the gap or help to alleviate one-time emergencies that arise. We need, in this program, to ensure that it’s a one-time payment, and then after the settlement, a household can sustain their housing. We do follow-up to ensure that, in fact, they have stayed housed. It’s a really effective way to support someone who runs into trouble.

On this specific question, between April 1^st of this year and the end of October, one fund - we have a variety of them, but one fund - of $50,000 that we received through the Department of Opportunities and Social Development, we’ve already spent $32,000 of it, a third of which is specifically tied to delays in the processing of rent supplements. Last year, in total across our programs, we spent about $77,000 to ensure that people either were able to attain housing and not wait for the rent supplement to be processed, or maintain their housing because the rent supplement was delayed. We have not been reimbursed for those payments.

The deputy minister is correct: There are a number of doors to go to and a number of ways that people seek support, but when we as an organization use funds that are fundraised in that way, we can’t direct it to something else. Specifically, our interest is in creating more permanent, affordable housing. When we are using funds to bridge gaps that are the result of a delay in a provincial program, we would say it’s probably not the best use of our funds.

[9:45 a.m.]

Having said that, I do want to underscore how much we appreciate the department staff who have been working diligently directly with us, and I’m sure with many others, to address some of the issues that lead to delays in processing. I also want to mention that many thousands of Nova Scotians are not able to connect with organizations like ours. If they are trying to do this process on their own, when you say 10 or 12 weeks in processing and there’s a delay, there’s no way, if you’re in a rural community and you’ve actually found a place you can afford, that anyone is going to hold onto you as a potential tenant while the rent supplement kicks in.

It’s a question not only of those of us who have support and are prioritized for a two-week processing time, but also for all Nova Scotians. If they’re having to wait 10 or 12 weeks, that’s too long if they are trying to access housing. That housing will go to somebody else who has the money now. Landlords tell us that if they don’t have a good experience or they have repeated not good experience, they don’t want to participate anymore. I hope that answers your question.

IAIN RANKIN: It does sound complex, but it sounds like a no, that the government does not provide that supplement funding, even though they cause a lot of delays, arguably themselves, within administration. There are many details we can go over in terms of what the department is asking for, but it does stand out to me that the department is requiring CRA income documents to prove certain income-related things. That clearly could be a barrier for gender-based violence victims and survivors who can’t potentially access these types of records safely. I just wonder if the department is evaluating that particular policy, or even having the discussion directly with CRA so that we can help streamline that process around it.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Elliott-Lopez.

VICKI ELLIOTT-LOPEZ: Michelle may want to add more detail to this. The simple answer is that we don’t require any proof for survivors of gender-based violence, knowing that we just want to get them settled safely. Flat-fee rates are provided to enable them to secure safe and affordable housing quickly.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Waye.

MICHELLE WAYE: I can add to that. We do recognize that getting CRA data can be a barrier. We are in the process right now of entering into a memorandum of understanding with the federal government so we can automatically verify income. That process is under way, hopefully to be implemented soon. We are also launching an online application in the spring. We’re working on that, so that will help with some of the documentation. With the eye to continuous improvement, we’re always looking at ways to better serve our clients.

THE CHAIR: I’ll just use some of your time and say that’s really good news, because that’s a huge barrier on our office, for sure. MLA Rankin.

IAIN RANKIN: With respect to survivors, how many emergency spaces do exist province-wide for survivors of violence? We hear that a lot of femicides occur outside of HRM. I’m wondering if you have a breakdown regionally.

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Morrissey.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: If I don’t have that information here right now, we certainly can get back to you and get that information to you.

THE CHAIR: We’ll just ask the clerk to follow up on that. MLA Rankin.

IAIN RANKIN: Do you track how many survivors are supported through the gender-based violence rent supplement since its launch, and do you actually look at average wait times specifically with respect to survivors?

CHRIS MORRISSEY: Yes to both. We do track that data and we are constantly analyzing that data to look for ways to improve the program should we encounter such things as delays, either by specific region or by organization, to ensure that we’re improving the program. The goal is to ultimately have no delays with respect to that program - to get heads on beds as quickly as possible.

THE CHAIR: MLA Rankin with five minutes.

IAIN RANKIN: Yes, but would you admit that there are delays - and this is a high-priority client with gender-based violence incidents. Do you track to make sure that this is within the time frame of the one-to-two-weeks goal to ensure that they are served within that time frame? (Interruption)

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Morrissey. It’s just that I need to recognize you before your microphone goes on.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: Understood. It takes a while for me to get used to your systems. It’s all good.

I’ll defer to Michelle. She may have some specific information.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Waye.

MICHELLE WAYE: A simple answer: Yes, we are meeting the processing time of one to two weeks for survivors of gender-based violence. Right now we have about 574 active recipients of that program. We are meeting our standard processing time on that.

IAIN RANKIN: In terms of access, you have an online system that’s coming on in 2026. I’m just wondering if you see this helping to improve efficiency and access. Is there a way to speed that up and not wait six months so that Nova Scotians can access that rent supplement system online?

CHRIS MORRISSEY: We certainly can go back and look at that particular program and see if we can get it online faster. We want to make sure that we test the program and it’s done and unrolled properly. Going out with a program that’s not complete or is going to come up with more problems is only going to create more problems for us as a department that deals with and addresses some of the issues. We want to make sure we do this in a proper format and timeline to make sure that we’re addressing the concerns of those clients.

IAIN RANKIN: For the Canada-Nova Scotia Targeted Housing Benefit, there are different disparities on income thresholds - up to $26,500 between neighbouring communities. How do you determine how those are set? Who sets the household income limits and average market rent values for each region?

CHRIS MORRISSEY: I’ll start and I’ll refer to my colleagues who are into those details as well. We work with CHMC with respect to that information and that data that we do have.

I’ll look to Michelle as she starts bringing up the information to be more specific with the details of the program.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Waye.

MICHELLE WAYE: As Deputy Minister Morrissey said, the Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation does set the household income limits that we use for our program. We abide by their boundaries that they limit - that they publish every year. Is that the answer . . .

IAIN RANKIN: Sure, but maybe I can ask if there’s any flexibility if somebody is just slightly - a dollar or two over; that’s an extreme example - but if there is flexibility in the system if they’re not currently eligible for those thresholds?

MICHELLE WAYE: Thank you for that question. I think that brings up a good question with any income-based or income-tested program. There has to be a cutoff point, and unfortunately, we don’t have that flexibility, even if it is a dollar. Then it can be a dollar more and five dollars more. Unfortunately, we are limited to what the household income limits are.

THE CHAIR: MLA Rankin with one minute.

IAIN RANKIN: Just to get a sense of how it’s helping Nova Scotians - how many Nova Scotians receive that benefit? What percentage of eligible households are reached?

MICHELLE WAYE: Let me just pull up my latest. Sorry, I just didn’t have it up.

THE CHAIR: Not to put you on the spot. We can get that information later, if that’s . . .

MICHELLE WAYE: Absolutely. I can say that there are about 95 to 96 households that are being - 9,600 households that are being helped right now under the regular stream.

THE CHAIR: You have seven seconds. Now we will move to MLA Outhit.

TIM OUTHIT: I get an extra seven seconds, do I? (Laughter) Thank you for being here and thank you for what you do every day. I know how important it is. You are making a difference. Thank you for that.

I was excited to be here today because I wanted to learn more about the rent supplement program. The first thing that we heard in the opening comments and whatnot was we’ve seen the incredible increase in the budget from $11 million to $77 million. I’d like a little bit more understanding about that breakdown of exactly how that happens and what it’s doing. If someone could break that down a little bit for me, because that certainly shows a significant increase in investment.

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Morrissey.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: I’ll start with some of the high-level numbers and then defer back to Vicki, who may give you more specifics. We’ve gone since 2021 from $11.1 million to a total of $73.9 million when the government took office. Approximately 5,000 Nova Scotians were on the program back in 2021; there are now approximately 9,500, plus or minus 100, with respect to that. It’s a program that certainly addresses people in critical need. We’re continuously looking at ways to enhance and improve the program, as have been described by some of my colleagues.

We’re also committed to working with the federal government as we go through some of the new programs that they’re developing to ensure that we’re getting our fair share with respect to maximizing the opportunity to work with our federal colleagues, maximizing funding for programs like this. Last week, I met with my deputy minister colleagues from across Canada to talk about housing and the need for housing, specifically some of the requests that we have for specific funding, and also working with Build Canada Homes with respect to some of the new opportunities that may exist with respect to increasing the housing stock across Canada as well.

I’m going to turn it over to Vicki, who may - I’m going to throw it to Michelle, who I think has a page open and may be able to give you a little bit more detail with the numbers.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Waye.

MICHELLE WAYE: I can give you a breakdown of some of the rent supplements that we have by region. Right now, we have a total of 9,640 active rent supplements across the province. As the deputy minister said, we have a large investment that quadrupled over the past four years. We are forecasting a spend of about $74 million this year on the rent supplement program. By region, the Central Region tends to be our largest component of the rent supplement. They account for 62 percent. In Eastern - that’s Cape Breton Island - about 9 percent of our rent supplements are there; in Northern, which is Guysborough County, Antigonish County, Colchester County, and Cumberland County, is about 15 percent; and in Western, which is the rest of the province, about 14 percent.

TIM OUTHIT: Continuing on understanding the program a little better, I wanted to focus on eligibility criteria for supplements. I’d like a breakdown on eligibility, but also, what happens when a client’s rent exceeds the AMR for their area? Certainly, we’ve seen fluctuations lately. Tell me a little bit about eligibility and a little bit about when the exceed the AMR for their area, please.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Elliott-Lopez.

VICKI ELLIOTT-LOPEZ: There are a number of eligibility criteria. You specifically referenced average market rent. There’s eligibility per client. If the client is paying more than 40 percent of their income based on average market rents for their area, then they are eligible. Average market rents do vary by region, as we know. The way it’s calculated is once they do qualify, then their calculation is based on the difference between 30 percent of their income and their actual rent paid up to the average market rent. If somebody’s paying rent that is less than average market rent, then the calculation is based on their actual rent, but it goes to a maximum of average market rent.

TIM OUTHIT: How often do you update those market rates? We certainly have seen fluctuations up and now slightly coming down, I believe.

VICKI ELLIOTT-LOPEZ: Once a year we get updated AMRs - Average Market Rents - from CMHC. Generally, they send them out early in the calendar year and we implement them April 1^st of that year. Every fiscal year, we update the AMRs. In the last three years, they’ve increased over 26 percent.

[10:00 a.m.]

TIM OUTHIT: Thank you. Chair, I’m going to pass it on to one of my colleagues.

THE CHAIR: MLA Timmins, please.

DIANNE TIMMINS: Thank you, everyone, for coming and discussing this very important initiative that’s been happening across the province to help with our issues with our rent and the difficulties that people are having.

Since 2021, in my previous position as a CA, I really directed a lot of clients toward the rent subsidy. I was quite pleased with it. Maybe you can correct me if I’m wrong, but prior to 2021, the only assistance for rent would be for people who were on community services. We may say the working families didn’t have an opportunity to have some assistance with the increase in rent and so on. We’ve been directing a lot to the families who are working families to the rent subsidy and networking with the businesses in the community because sustainability is important when it comes to rental supply. When we introduce the rent subsidies, it increased private businesses to open up their doors to people who could not afford it because they were based on a lot of their financial ability to pay the rent. Thank you for that.

I’m sorry for babbling, but as you can tell, I’m very supportive on the rent subsidy program. Thank you for that. Do you have a map of the breakdown by area showing the average market rent across the province? In addition, do you have a data indicator of where most rent subsidies are located within the province?

THE CHAIR: Ms. Waye, you answered some of that in your last question. If you want to reiterate it, that would be great.

MICHELLE WAYE: Sure. We do have a map that we’d be happy to share with the committee. The majority of our rent supplements are in the central region - in the Halifax region - and then I believe I can repeat what I said earlier. Okay, sure.

THE CHAIR: I think one of the questions was the average market rents too.

MICHELLE WAYE: The average market rents, okay. The breakdown by region - I’m happy to repeat that. Central: 62 percent. Eastern: 9 percent. Northern: 15 percent. Western: 14 percent. The bulk of the benefits are within the Central region. As for AMRs, we categorize average market rents by bedroom size. There’s bachelor, one bedroom, two bedroom, and three bedroom. For the Eastern region, which is Cape Breton area, we do have AMRs for the Sydney area that are - did you want me to share the breakdown, or did you want me to (Interruption) - the amounts? Okay.

In the Eastern region for Sydney and Cape Breton county, the average market rents for bachelors are $747 for CBRM. This is the county of Cape Breton excluding Sydney, for one bedroom, it’s $849; for two bedrooms, it’s $1,084; for three bedrooms, it’s $1,368. For the Sydney area, the AMR for bachelor is $747, as I said; for one bedroom, it’s $872; for two bedrooms, it’s $1,122; for three bedrooms, it’s $1,429. For the remaining areas in Cape Breton, the AMRs are $679 for bachelor apartments; for one bedroom, $716; for two bedrooms, $1,006; and for three bedrooms, $1,102.

Moving to Central, we break out the average market rents by the City of Halifax, Dartmouth, Bedford, and Sackville, and then Halifax - Other, and East Hants. That’s the way it’s categorized. For the City of Halifax which includes Halifax, Beechville, and Lakeside, the AMRs for bachelors are $1,202; for one bedroom, $1,464; two bedrooms, $1,712; three bedrooms, $2,262.

For Dartmouth which includes Cole Harbour, Cherry Brook, Dartmouth, Lake Loon, Shearwater, Westphal, and Woodside, the AMRs for a bachelor is $985; one bedroom, $1,186; two bedrooms, $1,499; three bedrooms, $1,659. For Bedford/Sackville within the Central region, which is Beaver Bank, Bedford, Hammonds Plains, Kinsac, Lakeview, Lower Sackville, Lucasville, Middle Sackville, South Uniacke, Upper Hammonds Plains, and Upper Sackville/Windsor Junction, it’s $1,056; one bedroom, $1,359; two bedrooms, $1,866 . . .

THE CHAIR: Order, please. I think MLA Timmins has heard enough. If you can table that whole thing, that would be great, or if you can tell us where that is publicly available, that’s very helpful. MLA Timmins.

DIANNE TIMMINS: Thank you for the details on that. I didn’t realize how in-depth the research was on that. Do you also have a breakdown between non-profit to private contributions toward the housing? Do you have a breakdown of that for overall? We don’t need the details on each area. If you can table that, that would be great but overall would be great.

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Morrissey.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: We’ll gather that information and certainly provide it to the committee. At this point in time, there are pockets in different programs. It’s probably best to table something with respect to the data you’re looking for rather than trying to flip through a bunch of pages and try to get to different programs at this point in time, if that’s okay.

DIANNE TIMMINS: Okay. I understand there are both federal and provincial dollars invested in the program. Just curious how the funding works. You might have touched on it a little bit, but can you break it down? What is the annual federal investment in this program? Also, the contributions compared to the provincial.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: Sure. I’ll start while Vicki is flipping through the specific details that we’ll get you. We have lots of charts and numbers that we do refer to. The program, as I mentioned before, from 2020-21, which was $11.1 million has gone to $73.9 million. It’s gone significantly from 5,000 participants up to over 9,600 at this point in time. The general sense is around five-to-one of provincial dollars toward every federal dollar that is contributed to that particular program. The Province has invested heavily into this program. As somebody else has mentioned, this program didn’t exist many years ago. The contributions for this particular program are quite significant - north of $70 million. Vicki, do you have more details?

THE CHAIR: Ms. Elliott-Lopez.

VICKI ELLIOTT-LOPEZ: Specifically, when the program was launched in partnership with the federal government, there was a cost-match responsibility on the Province. As the deputy minister has mentioned, we’re at five-to-one dollars now. Specifically, this year the provincial investment is $61.9 million and the federal contribution toward the $79 million budget is only $12 million. Our minister recently wrote to the federal minister requesting a greater financial contribution from the federal government and was denied. We continue to advocate for more funding from the federal government to continue to support Nova Scotians.

DIANNE TIMMINS: I’ll hand it over to my colleagues. Thank you.

THE CHAIR: MLA MacQuarrie with six minutes.

KYLE MACQUARRIE: Thank you, everyone, for being here to share your experience and expertise. I’d like to ask the department: How often does CMHC update its average market rent data, and in what way does our department collaborate with CMHC to ensure the accuracy of these figures?

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Morrissey.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: I’ll start. I think, as Vicki has mentioned, we do it on an annual basis. It’s once a year that they are reviewed. I would say that our relationship with CMHC is ongoing. It’s daily through many different programs. There is a strong relationship between that organization and ours with respect to information. We don’t always necessarily agree on the best approach with some of the structure of the programs, so that’s why we’ve looked at some of our own programs to adapt based on the local need that may be required. Obviously, CMHC may be looking at something completely different than what we’re looking at. They have the national mandate; we have the provincial mandate. We are trying to look at programs very specific to our communities and to our clients who are in need at this point in time.

Vicki, do you want to add anything else with respect to the CMHC relationship?

THE CHAIR: Ms. Elliott-Lopez.

VICKI ELLIOTT-LOPEZ: The CMHC actually institutes a rental market survey every fall that helps them determine specific average market rents for each area. It is data informed, and as the deputy minister said, we receive it yearly and update them on April 1^st of every year going in. With regards to flexibility, we continually have discussions with our partners at CMHC. We’ve talked to them extensively, for example, about household income limits, because they don’t always work for smaller provinces. They have looked at the methodology that they use to calculate household income limits. Right now, they’ve determined to stay the course on those, but those are the requirements that we adopt and implement them through our bilateral agreements.

KYLE MACQUARRIE: How do you engage stakeholders to inform improvements in the rent supplement program?

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Morrissey.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: I’ll start very briefly and turn it over to Michelle, who has more specifics. As we mentioned at the outset, we work with many different organizations to come up with a variety of different programs to make sure they’re applicable to the clients in the local communities. We are constantly also looking at changes to how to improve all of our programs to ensure that we are meeting the needs of the clients. Michelle, do you want to get into some specifics, please?

THE CHAIR: Ms. Waye.

MICHELLE WAYE: We actively listen to our stakeholders. It’s an important part of how we inform changes to the program. We value their partnership, their advice, and we want them to know that we’re listening. We meet regularly with referral agencies and housing support agencies to hear their suggestions for improvement on our rent supplement programs, including survivors of gender-based violence. We rely on their feedback. We heavily relied on their feedback to inform the design of the Survivors of Gender-based Violence Benefit. It was deliberately co-designed with transition houses and the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women to ensure that the benefit is reflective of survivor realities.

Input from these stakeholders, including the YWCA, Alice House, and Bryony House, helped inform the eligibility rules, the intake process, and flexibility measures that existed when the program started, and as the program progressed, some of the incremental changes that we did. A referral agency working group under the survivors of gender-based violence formally took shape last spring to strengthen, communicate, and ensure feedback from agencies to inform improvements. We meet with them every two months. Our stakeholders have suggested improvements to things like our lease requirements, accessibility barriers, and expanding eligibility to the Survivors of Gender-based Violence Benefit.

[10:15 a.m.]

Some of the other areas that we’ve used stakeholder feedback to inform improvements include clear application guidance, helping reduce our wait-times, and their feedback has helped us inform the plans for a new digital application that we spoke about earlier. Some of the specifics on what we’ve heard on what we’ve done: We’ve heard lease requirements can expose tenants to risks like rent hikes and evictions. We ensure that all program material provided accurate information about the need to provide a lease and what we would accept in place of a lease, so we wouldn’t have that . . .

THE CHAIR: Order, please. Sorry, Ms. Waye. The time has elapsed for this question.

I’m going to move on to MLA Chender once again.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: For how long?

THE CHAIR: Thirteen minutes.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: Okay. Thank you. I want to ask the department - we’ve heard now a number of times the conversation about the increase in funding for this program. I think we were at $7.8 million in 2020 - all this helpful information is in the package we received. We’re now up to $61.9 million, but rents keep going up. I think the deputy minister mentioned there are 500 public housing units in development, but that is a drop in the bucket compared to the need. We have non-market housing providers - and I have a sixth sense that Adsum wants to talk more about supply, so I’m going to ask about that.

I know we have non-market housing providers like Adsum who have received federal funding to build genuine affordable rent-geared-to-income housing, but the need keeps increasing. We know that the average Nova Scotian is spending $4,000-plus more a year now on rent than they were in 2021. The rents are skyrocketing - I think 28 percent is the most recent increase - despite the 5-percent rent cap.

My question is, what is the plan? This program was introduced as a very important, very necessary band-aid - a stopgap. The deputy minister has referred to that when talking about it. This is until the supply catches up. That’s going to take a very long time, by the government’s own metric. What is the plan? Are we going to continue to increase the spending on this program by tens of millions of dollars each year?

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Morrissey.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: Specifically to increasing supply, I think lots of action is already taking place on this particular piece. Homes don’t get built overnight. That will take some time, whether it’s in this region or in many of the rural parts of Nova Scotia that also require some of the building stock that is required to meet the needs of those clients.

We’ve done many things, including here in HRM and Vicki’s work that she’s been doing here. We’ve been trying - the 515 or 512 that we’re building, from a provincial perspective, were encouraged by conversations and discussions with Build Canada Homes on opportunities, and whether that’s directly for us as a government or whether that’s with private stakeholders. Build Canada Homes is taking a wide-net approach as well, trying to unleash the potential of private equity into trying to build more homes.

We will continue to work with partners like the YWCA, who’s worked with Clayton Developments on some of the projects that they’ve had. Again, there are a variety of different funders. There are a variety of different builders. There are a variety of different programs. We will continue to unlock the potential out there. No one government will get this gone by themselves.

There is a time lag. I will acknowledge that it takes time for development to happen and for building to then happen. Certainly with some of the populations that happened coming out of COVID, the demand got a lot higher than the supply at that point in time.

We’re also taking a look at the existing old stock that’s out there and looking at ways of improving the old stock to make sure that there’s a continuum of existing stock that doesn’t get wasted, as well.

It’s not a simple answer. There is not a simple funding source. I’m really encouraged by the number of non-profits that are coming to our table and having conversations with us. The more people can bring solutions to us, in addition to other resources - whether that’s money or people or land or whatever the case may be - we’re open to those conversations. This is our problem to solve. I think it’s up to us as a department to work with our stakeholders to figure this out, including working with the Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency as well as to how we increase our existing current supply within the province.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I would suggest that the partnership between Clayton and the YWCA is very different than looking at private equity to leverage building homes that will ever be truly affordable for Nova Scotians. There is not a market interest in that. It’s a market failure - affordability in housing.

If you’re talking about genuinely affordable housing, rent geared to income - I would suggest that the market is never going to meet that need, no matter how much competition you introduce. That’s why we need non-market housing. The OECD suggests that should be something like 7 percent. We are maybe shy of 4 percent here in Nova Scotia. I’m sure you all know that. That is why we have this gap.

By the government’s own numbers, we know that CMHC has said that housing starts will need to more than double to 12,500 a year if we want to restore a metric of affordability, which I would suggest, again, needs to have a huge component of genuinely non-market housing. This government’s targets are over 4,000 units short of that. I want to ask again: How does the government see, and in what timeline, meeting the need of having genuinely affordable units, not supplements, that Nova Scotians will be able to call home and will be able to know that they can stay in year over year?

CHRIS MORRISSEY: I will defer to Vicki who is spending a lot of time in this particular space. I will also add that we are trying to work - we also know, with respect to supply, that there are also challenges with supply chain available tradespeople to actually build some of this stuff. That’s why we have some innovation around some of the housing of how we can build homes faster. Whether that’s off-site building, working with off-site builders with respect to that potential - we visited the site down in Arichat, an off-site builder who is readily building some of these affordable housing units down in Cape Breton. There are many other different people we’re working with to understand the demands around supply chain with labour issues. How do we make sure that we have a supply chain with other building materials, as an example?

The issue is complex, and I don’t think it’s going to be solved overnight, but there are many different paths we’re going down to help increase the housing supply both publicly and privately. Any increase in supply will create more competition and more inventory. That’s a good thing. The more housing we have, the more bedrooms and pillows we have to put heads on. I’ll turn it over to Vicki and some of the work she’s been doing as well in this area.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Elliott-Lopez.

VICKI ELLIOTT-LOPEZ: Obviously, our goals are “More, Faster” and “more affordable.” I’d say with the five-year action plan, we’ve been laser-focused on that. We’ve invested more than $283 million in over 3,000 affordable units across the province. Back in 2021, through our Affordable Housing Development Program, as a great example, under 25 percent of those coming to the table were from the community housing sector. Now that’s over 70 percent. We’ve seen a huge growth in the community housing sector just in the last four years alone. Adsum for Women & Children is one of our key partners in that area that has been able to take advantage of that program.

We’ve looked at gentle density through our secondary suite program, and we’ve created hundreds of units through that program. We’ve leveraged land for housing and released partnership opportunities notices and are bringing in not-for-profits to build on those. Again, affordable in perpetuity through the community housing sector. That’s why we continue to want to strengthen our relationship with them. We have staff who are dedicated now to working with the community housing sector - which we didn’t before - to build that capacity.

We invested for the first time in the Community Housing Transformation Centre. We created the non-profit community housing organization to help to continue to build sector capacity. We also, through the Executive Panel on Housing, we’ve created legislation that speeds up housing. You look at Mount Hope as a great example of that partnership with the YWCA. Mount Hope Village probably wouldn’t have housing on it today if it hadn’t been for the designation of the special planning area and that partnership that was created between Clayton Developments and the YWCA.

We’ve introduced time-limited municipal planning requirements again to expedite housing and to create more affordability in housing by removing certain requirements around commercial development. We’ve introduced building code changes to allow more of a flow between provinces. Again, that’s faster. If modular builders aren’t building to 10 different specifications, then they also find cost savings as well.

Of course, the Community Housing Acquisition Program, which has been nationally recognized to help the community housing sector grow. It helps them to build their portfolio and creates a domino effect. We added on the Community Housing Capital Fund to support them toward the down payments on that. The domino effect is as they acquire more existing affordable housing, they can then create bigger portfolios, which then they can leverage within their own portfolio to buy more.

THE CHAIR: MLA Chender with three minutes.

CLAUDIA CHENDER: I’m aware of those programs. I think they’re good. What I hear from the sector is that they could be better capitalized. Instead of allocating so many tens of millions of dollars to band-aids, we could be concurrently allocating the money to non-market housing that people need.

I want to make sure that there’s an opportunity for Adsum to speak of the success of that kind of housing. Adsum has the Sunflower and runs a number of other housing opportunities for people, but how much more of that do we need? What does it look like for people to be able to have that kind of dignified affordable housing?

THE CHAIR: Ms. Lecker.

SHERI LECKER: It means the world if you haven’t had a stable home, a place to call home, or a place for your family to reunite and be together if there are children involved.

I think it’s really important to recognize that the band-aids are important. A lot of work has been done. I’ve worked for more than two decades in shelters and in developing housing, so I know how important and critical band-aids will always be for some people.

Sadly, for too many people right now the response for them is a band-aid and not a solution. I look for a commitment, like the Federal Housing Advocate says. We need a third of all new housing starts to be for low- and very-low-income households. That is not what we see going up around us, at least in HRM. I recognize committee members are from across the province, but that’s not what’s being created in sufficient numbers.

I have a proposal in Ottawa right now just waiting for a few more million dollars and we would literally have at least three-quarters of the units on the land in June of next year. But we have to wait for that to happen, although we have the plans and we have more than half of the money. I appreciate the Province’s participation in that.

These are all small projects, though. On our own, none of us are going to solve this problem. We have almost 2,00 people - single individuals - staying at The Bridge, which is probably the largest shelter in Nova Scotia, and perhaps the largest in eastern Canada. Where are they going to go? What is the off-ramp? What is being created in terms of housing? I know what the numbers look like for what it costs to run that place in a year. We need the same amount being invested, if not more, in a solution for them because when it closes or when they are no longer able to stay there, they need to be housed and housed in places that offer dignity and offer opportunity for them to be stable, to heal, and to thrive. What I see is more in the band-aids and less in the actual development of solutions for low- and very-low-income households. Much of the affordable housing is not rent geared to income, and that’s where we really need to focus.

THE CHAIR: Thank you very much. I’m going to move on to MLA Rankin, please, with 13 minutes.

HON. IAIN RANKIN: I guess I’ll mention the Sunflower as well because it’s in my area. It’s such a great success. What a great location, being close to transit. We have a community centre being built right now. It’s a very walkable area.

I just want to ask Adsum for Women & Children to give a picture of how many more of these we need. We have an expansion under way. If we could look at just how there are - 16 units, I think, is what’s going in the Marigold. How long will it take to fill those spaces, if you can tell what kind of demand we have for such a service? The experience of bureaucracy and going through the whole project and the multiple streams that are involved - to give the committee a picture of the success and the challenges.

SHERI LECKER: We’re very fortunate in that our organization started developing housing in 1987. We can build on the experiences and we can learn from the lessons. Every time we do it, I hope we do it better.

[10:30 a.m.]

As I was asked, we have plans ready to build 16 more units, which will house another - depending on the size of the households - 35 to 40 people. If we have sufficient funding, we can press the button and have at least three-quarters of those built over the winter inside by Eastcut in Trenton, which is ideal. It’s quick and this is a company that we have worked with before. They know our pitfalls and we know theirs.

I’ve appreciated hearing Ms. Elliott-Lopez in particular talk about the growth in community housing. None of us can do it on our own. I know that there are some organizations that have been in particular acquiring and renovating in much larger scale - buying a whole apartment building.

A different kind of experience we had was in South End Halifax, where through support with the provincial government the identification of a property that was being underutilized - it’s one year since we received the keys and already 70 people are living there - 18 families - with the hope of moving in another six shortly. That’s taking a property and, with modest renovation, repurposing it. We could also be looking at repurposing as a very quick way, with some investment and support.

All of these are little projects. What we need is still: “This is the commitment, this is what we’re going to do, and this is how we’re going to ensure that of the however many new units are going up, a third of them are meant to be rent geared to income.” That’s what people can afford.

I will say this: It’s not easy work, and it’s not work that private developers will engage in. There’s no profit to be made here. When rents are $285 or $321 a month, there’s no profit, but what we have is stability and community for our fellow Nova Scotians. That’s what we really want to see happening.

IAIN RANKIN: Hearing that, to the department: You hear about how valued Adsum is, and all non-profits. Are looking at any kind of plan to scale up investments of this nature, whether it’s non-profit or co-op housing, which is an effective non-market model as well? Are you looking at a proportion of your budget to actually quantify the value that you are saying with these partners, given that you’re hearing the one-third requirement to actually build non-market housing? The need is there. We’re hearing that the demand is outstripping supply. Those 16 units are probably filled without it even being built yet. We know about the wait-list.

How is the department actually quantifying that value that you spoke about today and ensuring that we have dedicated funding streams for non-profits to acquire or even preserve affordable housing stock in the province?

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Morrissey.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: The numbers on my sheet are quite small, so bear with me - small in font size, not small in magnitude. (Laughter) Let me qualify that. I almost got me there.

On the community housing, we certainly are increasing budget and have increased the budget quite significantly from 2021 - from $6.9 million back in 2021 and the budget going into 2024-25, $18.5 million, and 2025-26, looking at $16.3 million - in and around that level.

As I described before, this problem won’t get solved by itself or by any one level of government. We are working with many different community partners, whether it’s Adsum or the YWCA or the eight or nine other non-profit organizations I’m trying to work with. We are having a meeting upcoming very soon with Build Canada Homes to figure out how we can leverage that opportunity as well to figure out how we can get access to more capital to provide more opportunities. The Land for Housing Program with the 13 proposals that we received, the backyard suites - we are looking at many different programs to see how we can alleviate some of these concerns.

We’ll try just about anything we can with respect to looking at the return on investment here to make sure we can leverage - it’s about leveraging dollars. No one group or organization is going to figure this out themselves. If there are some other innovative ways that we can figure this out, we’ll look at projects and proposals and try to leverage the funding that may be available. We’re encouraged by programs like Build Canada Homes and the support for other agencies that need some help of advocating. We’re here to do that as well. We have a limited amount of money as a provincial government to spend and there are needs aplenty with respect to what we’re trying to do from a government perspective. We will not stop to advocate for more money in this particular space and get our fair share with respect to making sure we’re getting more homes, faster.

IAIN RANKIN: I’m glad you mentioned return on investment because this is what this committee is really supposed to really dive into and the effectiveness of the program spending. I wonder how you’re actually measuring the impacts and what are the metrics that are important to improve in society. The answers we always get, and you just said it again, $6.9 million went to $18.5 million and that should be celebrated. Are you actually looking at program success? You mentioned you have a myriad of programs and you can list them all, but we haven’t reduced homelessness. We have wait-lists growing. We have stability outcomes that should be assessed. Do you look at the effectiveness of these programs and actually ensure that outcomes are being delivered by this increase?

CHRIS MORRISSEY: We are constantly looking at outcomes and trying to find KPIs. Looking at some of those KPIs, the demand is way outpacing supply. No one will argue that. That’s not a good situation for anybody, but we are doing our fair share and trying to do more with what we can. While we are trying to reduce some wait times, the increase in demand in wait times is not helping with respect to getting that overall number down.

Increasing the supply through whatever mechanism - whether it’s building ourselves through the Nova Scotia Public Housing Agency or whether it’s working with partners like Adsum, YWCA, or many others, increasing of supply will certainly help. Increasing funding and programs for rent supplements is another way, but we know we have to be better. We are continually trying to look at opportunities for us to make sure we’re looking at always the numbers of increasing the opportunities for people who need the housing.

THE CHAIR: MLA Rankin with four minutes.

IAIN RANKIN: It sounds like you need more funding is what it comes down to. That’s what I’m getting from your answer. I would say there are other ways that you can leverage stock in the market. I wonder if the department sees a role for non-profits to preserve or acquire at-risk housing stock before it’s lost to the private market?

CHRIS MORRISSEY: More funding would be welcome. I think anybody would be silly to say that’s not part of the solution, but no one government, no one private organization or public organization is going to solve that particular problem.

We are a leader, when you look across the country, with coming up with innovative projects and programs to solve this. When we’re on our FPT calls and working with our colleagues, they’re all asking us, “How are you doing that?” The unique thing about Nova Scotia is we have a lot of non-profit organizations who are here to help and are reaching out. That relationship we have with Adsum and many others is incredible with respect to what we’re trying to do as a Province to alleviate this particular concern. We won’t discard any proposal that comes in from the non-profit organizations or from some other organization to look at if it can achieve one of our goals, which is building more homes, faster. We’ll take a serious look at that with the limited constraints that we do have with the number of people and number of resources we have for each project.

IAIN RANKIN: With respect to resources, there is a hiring directive now in the Public Service that looks at only filling in one FTE for every two vacancies. Is there an exemption for the service delivery of rent supplements in these critical programs throughout your department to ensure that we’re not losing the vacancies through attrition and delivering these programs that have significant delays?

CHRIS MORRISSEY: We’ve been assured that no frontline staff will be affected by this to make sure that our service levels continue to go the way we’re going. If we can find the efficiencies in our services to free up money to do other things, I think that’s a good thing. Trying to be more efficient with the limited resources we have is very good, but this will not impact our frontline staff who are implementing the services that are required.

THE CHAIR: MLA Rankin with two minutes.

IAIN RANKIN: Two minutes? Do you have coordination with other departments with respect to - child care would be the one, since we’re limited in time - working with the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development to ensure that there are housing supports and that it’s linked to child care, given the necessity when we have issues related to mothers trying to flee gender-based violence?

CHRIS MORRISSEY: We are in constant communication with other departments, whether it’s the Department of Opportunities and Social Development, or Department of Education and Early Childhood Development, or others. I’m not specifically aware of any outreach to the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development at this point in time, but certainly, we can take a look at what we’re doing. Vicki will respond.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Elliott-Lopez with one minute.

VICKI ELLIOTT-LOPEZ: In fact, we worked with EECD through the executive panel and the Department of Municipal Affairs through cross-department collaboration and recently introduced legislation that allows the Minister of Municipal Affairs - much like he can designate a health care zone to expedite development in that area, he can now designate a child care zone to enable faster development of child care centres.

IAIN RANKIN: Thank you for all your work. I appreciate all the work that you’re doing.

THE CHAIR: Great. We’ll move on to MLA MacLeod, please.

MARCO MACLEOD: My question is for the department. Earlier this morning, it was mentioned that other provinces have time limits for the supplement; we do not. I was curious about the way that the department administers a rent supplement. What similarities are there with other provinces, and also, what differences are there with other provinces? Just the main ones - that would be helpful.

MICHELLE WAYE: I think Vicki mentioned earlier that Nova Scotia’s benefit is one of the more generous compared to other provinces and territories. Other provinces and territories cap their monthly supplements at certain amounts. In Manitoba, for instance, they cap their subsidy at $350; we do not. Others are time limited. Others are not accessible to those who are receiving income assistance or targeted to specific populations. We allow people on income assistance to receive a rent supplement. Some have multiple streams, depending on their household situations. They have different programs that deal with different household situations. We have one stream, so from an administrative perspective, ours is simpler. Others deliver it through third-party delivery models and we don’t.

In Nova Scotia, our benefits serve all Nova Scotians who need to pay more than 40 percent of their income on rent based on the average market rent. In Ontario, eligibility is based on spending more than 30 percent of income but only get up to 80 percent of average market rent. I guess what I’m trying to say is that each province does it a little differently depending on the needs of their population. When we looked at the jurisdictional review, it is our take that the Nova Scotia program is a bit more generous and easier than others.

MARCO MACLEOD: My second question is also for the department. It was said that funding is allocated regionally, I believe. Do you have a breakdown of the wait-lists per region, and does the funding distribution reflect the needs of the wait-lists?

CHRIS MORRISSEY: I’m just quickly going to send it over to my partner in crime here, Vicki.

VICKI ELLIOTT-LOPEZ: We’re happy to say that there is no wait-list in the Rent Supplement Program, so they’re processed as they come in. It is a centralized budget and a centralized intake, so while we have staff out in the regions, and that’s to ensure good client service so clients can get access through any regional office. They move through a centralized intake process, and it’s first come, first served unless, of course, they’re attached to a housing support worker as we mentioned, which is then expedited.

MARCO MACLEOD: Okay. I had a question here about gender-based violence. How many recipients are in the application process or wait-listed for the survivors of gender-based violence? I think it’s called “the benefit.”

THE CHAIR: I’ll wait until you tell me who.

Ms. Waye.

MICHELLE WAYE: We don’t have a wait-list, but we have 70 applications that are in process right now.

MARCO MACLEOD: The community housing sector is an integral partner in ensuring access to affordable housing. Have there been any recent investments in the community housing sector and initiatives under way to support affordable housing? Is there a metric or a KPI to gauge their success?

THE CHAIR: Ms. Elliott-Lopez.

VICKI ELLIOTT-LOPEZ: As mentioned, we’ve invested about $283 million in over 3,000 units in the community housing sector. Our support, though, through all affordable housing new supply - and I think this is an important metric - is $186 million just for this fiscal year. That includes investments in new public housing units. It includes our Affordable Housing Development Program, and our Secondary and Backyard Suite Incentive Program. As I mentioned, under our AHDP, it’s predominantly not-for-profits that come to the table now.

[10:45 a.m.]

The reason that we’re seeing such success with our not-for-profit organizations is because we’ve actually changed the way we assess proposals that come to the table. The higher the social outcome, the more likely you are to get funding and the higher that amount of funding will be. That’s how we gauge what success will be with our community providers.

Then, of course, we do reviews. We reach out to them. We ensure that they’re operating within the terms and conditions of their agreements, which stipulate that they have to have a certain affordability level. Again, our community housing sector as a partner is critical because they do offer low rents in perpetuity - many deeply affordable rents.

MARCO MACLEOD: I will pass the line of questioning to MLA Wong.

THE CHAIR: MLA Wong.

HON. BRIAN WONG: Thank you all for being here. For the folks with Adsum for Women & Children, the work you do is irreplaceable. Thank you for what you do as well.

My first question, really, is for the department. For 14 years, my mom lived in Waverley Manor. She paid approximately 30 percent of her income until she died in 2018. It really allowed her to live with dignity, to have a community and stuff around her.

One of the most vulnerable populations in my constituency is seniors. I’m wondering if you could tell us if there have been changes and what’s in the future for seniors being helped by the rent supplement program.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Elliott-Lopez.

VICKI ELLIOTT-LOPEZ: Over 30 percent of our rent supplements go to our seniors. Predominantly, I would say, in the Provincial Housing Agency over 70 percent of our households are seniors, so many of them move to public housing. They can access a rent supplement program while they’re on the wait-list, which has benefited over 1,600 of our households who are waiting.

The biggest change we’ve made to support seniors on the rent supplement program was back in 2021 when the rent supplement program was first introduced. Seniors were eligible, only it was marked at 95 percent of average market rent instead of full average market rent. It made fewer seniors eligible. It’s kind of like the statistic that Michelle shared or the eligibility requirements from Ontario where yes, it’s 30 precent of your income, but it only matches out at 80 percent of average market rent. Essentially, that means 50 percent of your income is going to housing. It was not equitable for seniors to be able to access the program because of the way their eligibility was assessed. We’ve now made that 100 percent of AMR, which has made more seniors eligible, and it has allowed them to achieve higher amounts in the rent subsidy.

BRIAN WONG: So with that, we do have seniors who come into our office who may live in a house or may be living in an apartment that’s oversized - maybe a spouse has passed away. What is the process to take them through a possibility of the rent supplement program, and how does it work to get them into senior housing? I’m just curious how the flow would work for a senior in that position.

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Morrissey.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: We’ll do this in two veins, if we could, simply because I think the rent supplement would be one particular path, and then certainly the housing agency - Pam can speak to how we deal with seniors’ applications and wait times with respect to our clients there. Maybe first Michelle can answer the question.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Waye.

MICHELLE WAYE: Sure. A senior facing that situation - we would encourage them to apply to the rent supplement program to secure funding to allow them to live in the unit that they are living in. At the same time, they can apply to be on the public housing wait-list. I can let Pam talk a bit more about that if she wants. You can do it at the same time.

In cases like that, we would encourage the household to get support while they’re looking for options to obtain permanent housing in a seniors building.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Menchenton.

PAM MENCHENTON: A senior through low income can apply for housing through the Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency. We would encourage that individual to spread their options as wide as they can - to increase your geography will give them a greater opportunity to get off our wait-list much faster. We will counsel our clients to do that, if they’re able.

One of the things we’ve done from a policy perspective to hasten people off our wait-list - that is one of our goals - we recognize that the wait-list is getting longer. However, one of the things that we really strive toward is to get people off that wait-list as soon as possible. That’s through operational efficiencies combined with some policy updates. I can give you some examples of that.

One of the things that we’ve done is removed municipal requirements where people had to live in a district that they were applying for. Now you can go anywhere in the province and put yourself on a wait-list for any of the buildings we have that would be suitable for someone who’s 58 years or older, which is how we define our seniors.

THE CHAIR: MLA Wong with two minutes.

BRIAN WONG: If possible, to get maybe a comment from both organizations here today - home-sharing programs, in my mind, with tens of thousands of empty rooms and apartments and houses throughout the province, should be a viable option. I know you’ve taken some heat over Happipad, the organization that we engaged in the first place, but what do you see as the future of Happipad to increase the housing market?

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Morrissey.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: I’ll start, and again, if my colleagues have something else to add - Happipad was a solution that we took a look at and we implemented. I think after evaluation, it probably did not have the success we were looking for, but it did match people with bedrooms or with spaces. After the program ended, another 400 people had been matched up with particular spaces.

I think there’s plenty of opportunity here. As I mentioned earlier, no one partner is going to solve this problem by themselves. There may be some other opportunities for other delivery agents to take a look at some of these solutions as well. Happipad was one that we did implement. We learned our lessons and we reevaluated and adjusted and we moved on to other programs since then.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Elliott-Lopez with one minute.

VICKI ELLIOTT-LOPEZ: I would just reiterate that at the time we entered into an agreement with Happipad, home-sharing was new to the province and change takes time. For the 60 people who did obtain leases, they would say that it was a great success. We do know that over 400 more people connected on the Happipad site and then continued a relationship offline, but at the time, it was really important that we accessed every tool available to us. We were faced with a housing crisis.

THE CHAIR: Order, please. I apologize. MLA Wong with 10 seconds.

BRIAN WONG: Just a quick question. Is there a place for home-sharing programs within the community organizations?

THE CHAIR: Unfortunately, there is no time for that answer, but I see heads shaking no.

That concludes the time we have for questions. I would like to echo my colleague, MLA Outhit, and thank you all for the work you’re doing on this extremely important issue. I’d like to thank all of the witnesses for coming and ask if anyone has closing remarks. Anyone have closing remarks? Deputy Minister Morrissey and Ms. Lecker. We’ll go Deputy Minister Morrissey first.

CHRIS MORRISSEY: Thank you, Chair. I just want to acknowledge that the housing challenges we have before us will not be solved by one particular organization. As I mentioned in the early outset, the people around this room, but there are also hundreds of people behind us in the organizations, in government, in the agencies who are doing the hard work. We know this is certainly an issue that’s prevailing in the community at this point in time, but we’re here to try to find solutions. We’re here to work with partners, the people like Adsum, and many others who bring their passion, their courage, their advocacy in the community which continues to make us improve our programs and to do better. That’s what we’re here to do.

I just want to thank and acknowledge our community partners, the staff behind the scenes who are doing all the hard work, and the frontline people who are continuing to deal with these crises on a day-to-day basis.

THE CHAIR: Ms. Lecker.

SHERI LECKER: Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. I want to echo the words of the deputy minister. There’s a lot of hard work, and there are hundreds, if not thousands of people behind us who are doing that work. We must work together - government, non-profits, and the private sector - to ensure that people have enough money to live. We must increase the inventory of affordable housing for the thousands of people experiencing instability. We also have to agree on what we mean when we call housing “affordable.”

We look forward to continuing to work with government to ensure that Nova Scotians’ basic needs are met, and their human rights are realized.

THE CHAIR: Thank you very much. The witnesses may leave. We have just a tiny bit of committee business, and I think we can go right into that, folks.

I would like to say before we go into the last bit of committee business that as Chair, I have an opportunity to make comments on what I heard in the meeting. I will say that there was some excellent collaboration, but I also heard many repeat questions. I think as a group, we need to listen to each other and what each other is asking, then we can move on to other questions, so we maximize the time with our witnesses. Good job, everyone.

There’s no committee business today. The next meeting date is November 19^th and it’s in camera. That’s our discussion on the CCPAC conference and the training. We remind that we have a lunch at the AG’s office at 11:30 a.m. for the whole committee.

If there’s no other business - MLA Wong.

BRIAN WONG: On my last question with only a few seconds left, you called order, so they did not have a chance to answer, but you actually answered for them on record. I’m just wondering of the appropriateness of that.

THE CHAIR: Probably not appropriate. I apologize for that, but there was a very clear head nod from the witness who wasn’t called upon. What we can do is we can write that question down, send it to the witness, and we can get a written answer. How’s that?

BRIAN WONG: I wasn’t looking for the appropriateness of the written answer or not. I think it was the fact that order was called. Therefore, a response should not have been recorded. You answered the question for them as Chair.

THE CHAIR: Thank you. I apologize for that. Do we need to ask for a retraction of my comment, Mr. Hebb? Okay, so no, but now my apology is on record. As someone continues to read the Hansard, they’ll be able to see that that was inappropriate. I will try to do better.

Is there any other business? Okay.

The meeting is adjourned.

[The committee adjourned at 10:59 a.m.]